What are SBFs Ethics - Does he have any - #SBF #FT

The Screen Door Slams Marries Dress Waves The Screen Door Slams Marries Dress Waves Like a vision, she dances across the porch as the radio plays. Roar, Ibsen, singing for the lonely. Hey, that's me and I want you only. Don't turn me on again. Don't turn me home again, I just can't face myself alone again. Don't run back inside, darling, you know just what I'm here for.

So you're scared and maybe you're thinking that maybe we ain't that young anymore. Show a little faith. There's magic in the night. You ain't a beauty but hey, you're alright. And that's alright with me. You can hide me through your covers and study your pain, make crosses from your lovers, throw roses in the rain, waste your summer praying in vain, for a savior to rise from

these streets. Well now I'm no hero, that's understood. All the redemption I can offer girl is beneath this dirty hood, with a chance to make it good somehow. Hey, what else can we do now? Except roll down the window and let the wind blow back your hair. Well the night's bustin' open, these two lanes will take us anywhere. We got one last chance to make it

real, to trade in these wings on some wheels. Climb in back, heavens waiting on down the tracks. Oh, come take my hand. We're riding out tonight to case the Promised Land. Oh, Thunder Road. Oh, Thunder Road. Oh, Thunder Road. Lion out there like a killer in the sun. Hey, I know it's late. We can make it. Oh, Thunder Road. Sit tight. Take hold. Thunder Road. Well

I got this guitar and I learned how to make it talk. And my car is out back if you're ready to take that long walk. From your front porch to my front seat, the door is open but the ride it ain't free. And I know you're lonely for words that I ain't spoken, but tonight will be free. All the promises are be broken. There were ghosts

in the eyes of all the boys you sent away. They haunt this dusty beach road in the skeleton frames of burned out several ways. They scream your name at night in the street. Your graduation gown lies rags at their feet. You hear their engines roaring on. But when you get to the porch, they're gone on the wind. So Mary climb in. It's a town full of

losers and I'm pulling out of here to win. That was Bruce Springsteen's Thunder Road. I don't know if you guys been keeping up with Howard Stern. He did a fantastic interview with Bruce Springsteen not too long ago. And you should really check it out as well as check out his work. But let's move on to today's topic. What are Sam Bankman freed's ethics and more importantly,

does he have any? I was, you know, mine in my own business, watching the commentary track to Chinatown the movie. Great movie. Try to bring the space up here so you can see who's talking. They said that was important. Anyway, in Chinatown the movie, there is a main character and he's a bad guy. Right. Now you guys aren't going to watch it. So I'll explain just

a little bit. He's willing to take the water from Los Angeles, right? He's willing to take the water from the farmers in the fields. And he's willing to take the water. So that he can make money off that water, right? This big bad man wants to redirect the water. And they were talking on the commentary of Chinatown that Chinatown the film in the world that exists

in 1936. I want to say maybe. But it's before World War II. It's before the evil of Hitler. It's before we've really seen the lowest of men's characters. How bad we can go. And so here's just a little bit. I wanted to play. I'm going to try to all advance a little bit. I know you guys don't know what Chinatown is, but this is Robert Town,

the screenwriter of Chinatown, and David Finchner, director of Fight Club of Ridey of other great movies talking about evil. Let's see if we can get this going. Yeah, I wanted to give him some underlying sense of morality that that would respond with absolute horror. And he's so protective of it. I mean, there's the thing that makes him ultimately honorable in this completely compromised world. The magnitude

of what know across his willing to do, which is absolutely ravaged a community, destroy it, take land to make money on it, and basically rig the land in his daughter. And that is World War II hadn't happened. And that kind of evil. And that was not something that he would be used to dealing with. Right. And I wanted to have that. World War II hadn't happened

yet. That this man, the villain of Chinatown, was willing to rape the land and to rape his daughter, spoiler alert, if you haven't seen Chinatown. But we should all watch Chinatown by now. Anyway, think about that. That kind of evil. And then think about Getty's Jack. Jack Nicholson, the detective being unprepared for that kind of evil that it's unparalleled that he doesn't just say, Oh, I

know about genocide. Right. I know about evil. I know I've seen the speeches and the angry voices and what happens before a genus. I know about the evil. And then I came back to this FTX thing. And I came back to taking all these people's money and having no board and having no organization to send the money out. Right. We're all right. We're all reading the

reports by the accounting documents are all over Twitter. And they're saying that there was no one at the top of this thing that the decisions were made in a chat room. And the chat room was erased. And there was no board of directors. And they just decided kind of willy nilly what they were going to do with the money. And it wasn't just their money. Right.

Sadly, it was probably some of your money in the audience here. It was banks and investment funds. It was retirement accounts. It was people that wanted to get that that mat Damon crypto.com fortune favors the bold. Or perhaps he said the brave either way, it was their money that he took. And it was just interesting to me to think about this person without ethics. And then,

of course, they already know where I'm going in the chat. Because I'm going to play a little bit of Miller's crossing from 1990. This is the Cohen brothers, another film that you probably haven't seen that you should see. It's great movies available to everyone. And anywhere you have the choice of what you watch, you don't have to watch new movies, you could watch old ones. Anyway,

this is the opening scene of Miller's crossing. And what he talks about here is he talks about these are two gangsters talking an Irish gangster and Italian gangster. And they're talking about a fixed fight. Right. They're talking about an athletic competition. It isn't an athletic competition. Right. It's fixed. They've paid someone to take a dive. And they're talking about the ethics of that that if one

pays for something to be fixed, one should get the benefits of that fix. There it goes. You want favor to throw a goddamn fight? I figure I got the right to expect that fight to go off three and one. But every time I lay up back with a son of a bitch, burning bomb. Before I know it, the odds is even up or worse. I'm betting

on this short money. The sheenie knows I like short things. He's selling the information I fixed to fight. Out of town money, because poor in it. The odds go straight down. I don't know. Maybe the Los Angeles convent. I don't know. The point is, Bernie, and satisfied with the honest dollar he can make worth the big deal. He and satisfied with the business I do on

his book. He is selling tips on how I begged. And I mean, part of the payoff, this should be riding on my hip, is riding on someone else's. So, back with the questions. Friendship. So it really does matter. Even when you're surrounded by thieves and you're fixing a fight, it matters that you have a general moral code that you have what we call ethics. Let's go

ahead and get a definition on that ethics. Here we go. Ethics are moral principles that govern a person's behavior on the conducting of an activity. Ethics is a branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles. So neither metaphysics nor ethics is the home of religion. Interesting little example sentence, but yes, moral principles. Now what's unique about Sam is that he seems to have moral principles. Right.

He's published that he's a fan of ethical altruism. And that's been basically defined defined to me as being altruistic, but trying to maximize your altruism. By making a lot of money. And the reason that we could trust Sam is because he had a lot of money. And because he hung out with people who had a lot of money. So it didn't much matter about their ethics

or their character. It was this money that supported this money that prop them up and gave them this position of power. Now sure, Caroline's Caroline's father was friends with Gensler. And they were plugged in politically. But would they have been plugged in politically if they didn't have the money? Or go into an example here. Again, we might lose our ad rights and get banned from YouTube

and all that. So here we go. But this is Jonathan Mann at Song a Day man with two ends. And he does a song a day. And he did a great song today about Sam and Caroline. And this goes a little bit to their ethics. Okay. Sam was having me. Gary. Gary is the work for. Ben is the proper of Caroline. And she was you've been

Sam. His regulatory capture of the highest degree. Assist about the earth times. So that's pretty much the jetties. And it's just a bit you catch it. But it's regulatory capture. And it's also interesting to see these relationships between Sam and Glenn and Caroline laid out in this nice Brady bunch. Grid can't beat that. So it looks like Daniels here. Let's see if. Oh, Twitter's. It's going

to be funny as the Twitter platform slowly collapses. Let me tell you that I expect more crashes from Twitter in the future. If I had to say. One thing that I'm going to say is that I'm going to be a great, great, great. But I look forward to it's going to be. You know, things are going to go up and down. I don't have any faith

in the future of the. The technicals of Twitter. Daniel, how's it going? We were talking about the ethics of Sam Bankman Frieden. If he has any. This should be a short conversation. What's so funny though is that much like other people, he's put his supposed ethics out there on the line. Now sir, we've all read the box interview. We've seen the tweet. Direct from his own

mouth where he says that he doesn't think regulation was would work, which is a complete, complete flip on what he said previously. She kind of questions him and pokes him a little on the effective alterism thing. And it just seems like a lot of this was window dressing. So maybe it's important to have false ethics that you could later get rid of. Yeah, that never happens

in this industry. What they say in a lady. McBeth, be not the flower, but be the serpent underneath. You know, surprising. It's a. And it's just, you know, if you can't trust him, you can trust. I wonder about the TV stations though, because I heard a lot of blame today and they're blaming Sam for this and they're blaming the fact that they didn't have a board

for this and they're blaming all that. But then I say, what about these TV stations that just blindly aired these advertisements? And they were paid to air them. I don't. I think they have to do this kind of research and due diligence. They just assume that if this advertiser can afford to pay them, then the money's good. They'll run the ad. That seems pretty unethical for

them. It seems like they were advertising kind of a questionable Ponzi scheme, right? They are on their air right next to their other advertisements. In fact, it kind of makes me wonder who vets their other advertisements are these other things. You have to wonder that. Exactly. And I think this might be a wake up call for the advertising industry to begin thinking about the types of

financial products that they represent. But then, you know, you also have to extend that to sports stadiums and celebrity endorsements and kind of everything in the space that falls under the line of advertising promotion PR. You know, there are class actions, too. It's not. Like didn't he do any research before he decided to do it. And then he decided to hop on the sand wagon. Oh,

wait, we think that I'm with his stature would have have old team of lawyers looking into this. Sure. Tom Brady, the, but what about the TV 12 diet? He's just busy drinking a lot of water. Can't speak right one. The ad is interesting to see all these other people who are involved in it. And now they're all pointing figures fingers it. Who's it fault? And it

really comes back to the side of idea of ethics. Now, so you think that Sam had if he had no, okay, so let's say that Sam's front facing ethics were untrue. Sam. Everyone's typing at me and talking at me at the same time. But Sam was dishonest with his ethics, right? He said he had good ethics. He said actually great ethics. He was kind of bragging

about his ethics. His ethics were better than your ethics. He was going to give away a minute. $1 billion. You don't even have any money. He was going to give away a billion dollars. You still don't have any money. No, it just, it just seems like he had false ethics. So what were his real ethics? Do you think he had just kind of might makes right?

He might have had ideal that he wanted to try to uphold or represent as his own, but clearly, you know, what money corrupted. I think that he let it all go to his head. You know, he's an immature gentleman. You know, he was in his 20s when he made billions. And I think he just didn't have a clue. What's the deal with it at that point?

So again, what who was it fault at this? Do you think it was his parents? Is law professor parents? Why didn't they teach him like what he was supposed to do? Was this a religious failing? I mean, do you think Sam didn't have religion or maybe needed war religion? No, I don't think so because I mean there are plenty of other, I'm both religious and atheist

people who don't have this level of moral depravity. I don't think he's going to sign as being the cause. You know, they say often religion is the refuge of a scoundrel. So it's one of the two religions. You have to wonder about that too. No, I think he had, he was weak, right? He was weak as an individual. As a weak will, he saw an opportunity

to make more money than he'd ever imagined in his lifetime. And you know, that with that came the illusion of power. And it may have corrupted him. Now there are plenty of other billionaires who are corrupted by their will. I don't think you can make a blanket statement about everyone who has becomes into money being completely depraved. But in his case, he didn't have the, you

know, I'm sure he had a moral upbringing as a child, but clearly it didn't produce a result. So you're trading and you're trading and you make like a billion dollars. And then you have a billion dollars. I mean, for me, I would, you know, don't you go out and spend some of that. Maybe you buy all the stuff you always wanted. I guess at a certain

point, you don't want anymore. And you come back to the trading and you're like, well, I guess I'm going to trade some more. I'm going to make two billion. I'm going to make 20 billion. I'm going to make 40 billion. I'm going to make a really big, I guess it's mountain climbing stuff. I guess if we want to start about his ethics, we also have to

kind of look into his mental state. It seems like he was living in what they're now calling a, a polycule, which is the word poly attached to the word molecule. I don't know how much sense that makes, but they say him and at least one girl and multiple other guys. And I don't know the details yet, but I'm sure we'll learn them soon allegedly, of course.

We're all liable. And I don't know how much that makes. I'm just going to say he's going to take the money and I'm going to make a lot of money. Living together in a big, nice, fancy, $30 million apartment in the Bahamas. And they were the ones making all these decisions. They were the ones sending the money around. And they were in a polycule. And on

they were on drugs, not good drugs. They were on stimulants. They were on essentially some kind of speed. It was Dr. prescribed. It's an Alzheimer's medication. And apparently it kept them sharp for trading. So a lot of this is like a high pressure activity. Right. Let's assume for a second that they're actually trading. Right. They're actually trading. They're making bets. They're covering bets. They're winning. They're

losing. Right. It's a lot of excitement. But then they need the drugs and they're trading some more than they're trading some more than somehow this Alameda thing runs up a bunch of debts. And he says, sure, we're going to cover the girlfriend's company and they drain the money out. Do you think it happens slowly? Do you think it happens quickly? I never heard of it. So

maybe a year ago. So suddenly this company came out of nowhere. It had incredible coming to see success in their early trading activities. And yeah, I think it ended up evolving into a lot of sort of degenerate behavior that probably chipped away at any morality that any of them had. And the drug certainly didn't help. I'm sure that contributed to it. It's hard to know. It's

hard to get in someone's head. It's really an interesting, you know, decisions that they made. But it seems like, you know, a combination of things, right? They floppy accounting. No sense of responsibility over customer departments. But I think the market is a lot more complicated. This is belief, this false belief that they could, you know, make back the losses that they incurred. Since the market took

a downturn, you know, it's like, I don't trade. Right. I've never been a good trader. And I've never been a trader at all. But every time I, I, I think about it, I get help. So for me, like, that's not for me. Right. So I understand that it can be a nerve wrecking thing to do. You know, up all night, checking different charts and looking for

patterns and trying to figure out entries and exits and leverage and all those sorts of things. This is why, you know, people who advocate for Bitcoin generally don't recommend trading because it's the kind of behavior that gets you into this sort of thing. It causes you to lose your morality and to take that outside best that you otherwise shouldn't be taking. And if you do that

for a while, you know, you know, you know, if you're, if you don't have them, the intellectual moral or other, you know, sort of character level stamina to withstand that. You all victim to this, this sense that you have to keep winning. You have to keep, you know, making the next trade better than the last trade. And if you mess up a trade, you have to

try to make twice as much on the next one. It's a cycle. That I think causes a lot of people to lose sense of who they are. I think for Sam, he might have been defined by this winning. If we look at trading and we say, okay, he's a successful trader. Well, what does that mean? That means he made a lot of money. Right. But what

does that also mean? He made a lot of bets. And he was right. So he has this kind of streak. He has this gambler's mentality where he knows more than you. He's got the inside. He's going to make more money on this than you've ever made in your life. And that's what he's good at. And if he starts losing, right. The market turned down. You're saying

that if this company started 2019, they don't have the experience of the previous Bitcoin crashes and all that we'd live through. And yeah, they never pulled a check. They never stopped funding this company until they got found out about it because it has to be multiple transactions sending over to the other company. It's not just one, whoosh, all the money. It's multiples. And very interesting. Let's

see if we can get some of the listeners up. I'm going to go ahead and invite a return of the wolf and Anton up to speak. If you guys want to just give us your opinion on Sam's ethics or lack of ethics. You made a really good point just now. So which is that he built the persona. He had this reputation upheld. Suddenly he's on the

cover. He's one of the wealthiest people in the East Fund paper in the world, one of the youngest billionaires in the world. And that's a lot to try to maintain, especially in a market like Bitcoin and crypto, where things can change so quickly. And you have seen historically 70 to 90% drawdowns in a bear market. And I think a lot of people who jump in during

the bull market, they are not going to be able to get the money. They don't prepare for that. They don't believe it can go as well as it's going to go. And often overextends to a point where it's far lower than you ever imagined it would be. And that's naturally assigned for many people. That's the market is completely over. It's dead. You see the Bitcoin is

dead post hundreds of them over the course of the last decade. And obviously people come in. In different times and in different experiences. But I think if you're making a lot of winning bets in a bull market, you think you can outsmart the bear market. And clearly he didn't. Well, not only do you get the Bitcoin is dead post, you get the people dancing on your

grave. I follow this guy and I think he's the best. He's a text files text files.com Jason Scott. He's an archivist for the Internet archive. And he hates Bitcoin and he hates cryptocurrency. And he is so happy right now. He's calling this his Christmas gift. He doesn't care that retirement funds lost their money or that banks and hedge funds and other kind of random people are

going to go down and all that. He's just dancing and dancing and dancing. And I'm quietly letting him have it. I'm like, I don't, I don't say anything because he'll ban or block you. If you mentioned crypto, he'll instantly block you. And at the same time, I'm like, I could buy you a new account. I can use some new VCRs, man. If only you take Bitcoin

donations. I could be there with that VCR money for you. You know, we can get this thing going. We get this archive kicking. And yeah, he just hates crypto. So those people. I know that guy. I know exactly who you're talking about. And yeah, he's not a fan of Bitcoin. And you know, surprisingly, neither is Chelsea Manning, which was funny because I was on a space

the other night. I think watching Bitcoin magazine live show. They had, it was an interview with Julian. The wife talking about Wikileaks in the early days, which is, you know, that was sort of my early window into Bitcoin. It's what kind of stuff. I'm thinking about it. And clearly, you know, Chelsea Manning was caught up in all that. And so she posted something about maybe a

year ago on Twitter. She had a respiratory pie. And said, you know, I don't know. I don't know. Which they do with this. And I commented, you should run a Bitcoin node. And she and me give me road. No. Instant response. You got, you got our response. All right. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny that the people who like Bitcoin and don't like Bitcoin and how they come

down to it. I was going to say another nice thing. Everybody's down about the FTX. They're down about the price. And you know, we're on all the news and everything. But we're also getting into a lot of other shows. I can say, even though people in the chat were mad at Howard Stern, I'm going to mention it again. So there you go. But I was listening

to Howard Stern. And he did about half an hour on crypto. And yeah, most of it was negative. He was making fun of the Matt Damon commercial. He was making fun of the FTX. He's saying how his people lost all the money. But there was a little thread in there where the one guy, I think it was, I think it might have been a met. But

he said, remember that crypto that I bought you in 2015. It's still up. It's still up. We have to arrange for Howard Stern. That would be it too. I wish. But I mean, he's very much, once he's made his decision, he's 100% decided on it. And him and Gary both said the same thing. They came to it and they said, I don't understand crypto. So I

don't like it. And I'm also seeing the same thing with Bill Mar and you see it was done all over. And like every one of these talkship people, they all have a hot take on it. They all hate it. They don't take the time to understand it. That's the mainstream culture. They're the mouthpiece of it. I don't know. I think we're a long way from that

level of adoption. And I think, incident like this, where people now associate Bitcoin and crypto together as this complete Ponzi scheme, even though we know better. We know there's a difference. It's going to take a while for someone to come out of the woodwork again and maybe endorse some of the things like this. Well, I still think crypto is a nice generic for the whole Bitcoin

industry, even though everyone's trying to rebel against that. And they're like, Bitcoin is not crypto. I know it to be true. And then it's like, but it's full of crypto cryptography, right? Well, this is where you look at geography because, because yeah, crypto, if you look back at the original definition that you buy, the side for funds, and you buy health and eat crypto means cryptography.

And so crypto is now a shorthand for anything that includes hashing and public private keys and all that. It doesn't it doesn't speak to the nature of differences. It would Bitcoin and all the other cryptocurrencies are. So it's become something that you can use as a catch all for the entire space. So I think that's now damaging to Bitcoin's reputation because they are entirely different things.

And most people, but it's also damaging. It's also damaging to PGP's reputation. Think about PGP just out there providing pretty good privacy. And now they see their good word crypto torn down with these scammers. Absolutely. Which is why I think, you know, we need to take back crypto. We really need to take it back to it. And return to PGP returns to the original definition and

never use it again to speak of a financial instrument. But that's not going to happen. It's going to be generic like Kleenex. Everybody loves it generic. We got Morgan up here. I wanted to get a more going to chance to get in here to say hello. Morgan, what do you think about SPS ethics? Does he have any? That's a very philosophical question. Um, I think that

I've read a few of his text messages and DMs with journalists recently in the last 24 hours. To kind of appear into some strange man's personality when you do that. And it seems like he was a young kid who got a lot of money and felt like he could take advantage of people by playing a character. And he was very, very aware that he was playing

a character because he mentioned his acting and his using a wokeness and certain words to make sure people like him. And I think that if someone says that and they're aware that they're doing that, not just doing it like automatically subconsciously, but they're aware that they're doing that. That's kind of. On one side of the coin. I'm good business. So as a, you know, the coin

person, I would say that's immoral. And as a business person, I would say that was how you do business. But like the fallout is not how you do business. And so maybe the his responses are very immoral. The way he's been tweeting and not. Publicly speaking properly about what happened. And I think that's kind of an immoral act that he's doing. But. The way he raised

money and shakans with all these people in power. I wouldn't call any of that immoral. That's just good business. But you get to know someone's real moral clock or compass by how they deal with disaster. I think. Definitely learning how his. Child like behavior in the response is not a good thing. And all that good business back door stuff he was doing is not showing face

in this disaster. You know. So. I don't know. I try not to judge people. Especially people. I don't know. I will say I think it's pre immoral of all the investors that gave him money. Kevin O'Leary and. And you know, Mr. Football star and all of these people that endorsed him. Like. Class action lawsuit. Shack and all these people selling him like he was the bad

guy. When there were the ones that gave this kid money and didn't know what he was doing with it. I think that's a little immoral to blame him. When you throw billions of dollars at a 30 year old. And you don't even know what he's doing with it. It's kind of your fault. And so I think. I would never defend. You know, any of this stuff.

But we can't point to finger at him solely. You know, you know, there's a lot of like I said the last time we talked to a lot of people around him. The village. You know, when it's the president or the CEO. The leaders get blamed. But there's always the minions around you that do stuff. And the talking heads. The advisors. I mean, who gives a 29

year old billions of dollars. That's a lot of money down with it. You know, that's a little fishy to me. Well, I agree. And early on we had those stories on Twitter where the guy said I was a junior account executive. And I copy and pasted the Excel spreadsheet into the document like I was told to. And I just got fired. And that was the example

of they didn't do any due diligence. They just copy and paste it. And that was the boy. All right. The guy that worked at Sequoia, which is insane that they've given multiple billions of dollars to Uber and Lyft and Google and Facebook. And and that's their practice. That's how their minions work. That's scary. I think that builds a little into what we said earlier about winning

that Sequoia was winning with these strategies. So they stuck with them. Daniel, did you have more on this? Yeah, it's also, you know, institutional laziness. It's people who don't want to do it to work. They want other people to do the work for them. And you see. And you see how that resulted with all these companies and individuals just saying, well, I trust this company opinion.

And I'm not going to do my own work to do the research. And so, you know, there's so many points of failure. And they can all point fingers at each other. But we come down to no one doing research. And it's obvious. So then you end up with institutional FOMO where people just throw money and anything, which is the VC culture in a nutshell. I want

to say. Have you seen Daniel? Have you seen the show Silicon Valley? Of course. Okay. So you know, I think it's first or second season when they're doing their VC raising and they're going to all the VC's. And the crazy dude that was their host, the who ran the house. The comedian guy. I can't remember his name. He put his balls on the table. You know,

at the VC's like, you know, $50,000, or Mahogany table. And then, and that was like, look, we don't need your money. Look, I'm going to put my balls on the table. Fuck you, man. And then like later on, they needed money. And that guy came back to them and was like, you know what? You put your balls on my table. I put his balls on their

little IKEA table in their office and go screw you. I'm not giving you your money. I think that is the biggest, most honest window into VC culture. And, um, Menlo Park. And just if you've never been there in Silicon Valley, that's how all those guys that find checks are. You know, um, so imagine this kid. I mean, we don't know. That's be a personally. I don't

know anyone. I know personally, but imagine him and his girlfriend, Alameda and some other little, you know, minions around there and some little, you know, posse going into some VC room and doing the equivalent of, you know, I'm going to be a little bit more careful. That somehow and just impressing the shit out of some dumb VC guy like, wow, that guy's balls. Man, he put

his balls on my table. He must be a great accountant. You know, beautiful programmer. I love this guy. Give him a check. You know, and that's their form of due diligence. Um, yeah, we are you literally. In a way, we do have that story. There's, there's the story where Sam's in the meeting. And he's playing the video. Game League of Legends and the whole time. It's

just spouting out buzzwords and Bitcoin, future and, you know, dollars on and then they say at the time the guy looks around his screen, he was playing the video game the whole time. Well, I mean, that, that was his, uh, his arrogance. And I've already gotten money from people. I'm going to definitely get money from these people. I don't even need to tell them the truth

of what I'm doing with that money and they're going to give it to me. And that, that confidence is always good to be used as an entrepreneur. But also, if you're just blindly using that and you really don't even know what you're doing with that money, that's pretty stupid. And apparently he said he didn't know what he was doing with all that money. He openly tweeted

that. So it's not that he was just using that as a raised money skill and ego, um, manipulate VC skill, which is cool. If you could do it and get someone to find you a check. But you better actually know what you're doing. And, um, to compare him to Mark Carpalis, uh, Malgauks' CEO and head programmer at the time, at least Mark knew how to write

PHP code and knew how to explain how the trading engine works and knew how the website actually works with HTML. And, you know, maybe he understood the books a little bit. And that guy had a bow like Sabakoo with a samurai sword head in Japan. I saw that. And I didn't see this kid do any of that and how, how much involved in the actual exchange

was he like monetary wise and programming wise. Because he may not have known shit and actually was playing legal legends because he actually didn't know how to trade. And he didn't actually do the arbitrage himself. And he didn't even know how to fix his software work. That's what's scary. Um, I would have rather seen Mark Carpalis get all this money back and come back and rebuild

Malgauks. You know, at least he didn't know how to trade. You have a code. By the way, don't you think it's interesting that now in the wake of all this Mark Carpalis and so one and this is rearo's capital guys, they're all coming back to talk about it. Like just that they're opinions matters. Uh, because you know, they didn't do the worst. They weren't the worst

now. They're not the, they're not the top or the bottom of the total pull now. They're like the fox and the wolf and the owl in the middle. They're not going to hurt all of the sheep. You know, and Morgan, I look at it kind of the other way where it's now so much easier to do a scam that in the old days, Carpalis had to

do all that work and learn PHP and actually know how the engine worked and he bought the software from that other guy and all that. There was all that involvement. Now you can just run a scam like out of your house. Like this guy is just like, you got a scam in a box and he opened the box and there was a scam inside. He's like,

I could do that. And it was amazing to me still is these. All these TV guys getting behind it, all these people like you're saying Tom Brady, Shaq, not only giving him money, signing off to be in the commercials, putting their reputations up. And then all these companies, especially whoever owned the Super Bowl Fox CBS news, all these people running these ads blindly for what we

now know to be truly a Ponzi, truly a pyramid scheme, all the things they say about Bitcoin, they're like, Bitcoin's a scam. Well, this was a scam. It was in the book. And the homas, it was a fraud. They were just spending the money, you know, hilly nilly, wherever they wanted whatever it was. And yet it was advertised on TV. It sponsored a major arena. It

got into the fortune cookies. Like it shows you how far marketing. You know what that guy was on the portable bathrooms in San Francisco. And that must mean you made it. If they put your fucking face and the company logo you made on a port. Order party in the middle of downtown San Francisco. That's like peak Silicon Valley. Oh my God, what the fuck is going

on this guy literally. It was on shit. All the magazine was on a quarter party. You know the portable nice very elegant bathrooms. They have in the middle of the street. They put this guy's face on a toilet. If that's not like peak shit. Coinery. What else is. And one of the companies they said that's why they did. They're like his face was on fortune magazine.

His face was popular. We put the street from the US men on a toilet. And I figured that was a great investment. I figured I'm in right there. Just, you know, put the money in. So we're also joined by Victoria from Satoshi's page. Let's just get Victoria's opinion here. What do you think about Sbf's ethics? Does he have any? And I think it's an especially interesting

question because on its face, he was out there. Promoting effective altruism. He did that video about how he's going to give away all this money. He donated to politicians, which I agree with with Morgan is a lot about just, you know, good business getting in there. You know, pick a side, give him money, whatever you got to do. But Victoria, what do you think about Sam's

ethics? Well, I don't think stealing for a million people has held the ethical. So, you know, I mean, in the fight of all of the. In the fight of all of the goods that he proposed to do, he's created an awful lot of suffering in the process of trying to be altruistic. I mean, I think, you know, if you get, if you deep dive into the

whole philosophy, I think there's a. There's a whole load of convoluted thinking behind all of that. But I suppose it's possible to. It's possible to convince people of anything if you kind of put them through a program of thinking it comes across that he was a little bit brainwashed. Into that way of thinking and of course him being so young, especially surrounded by so many influential

people, one wonders to what extent he was actually given the opportunity to learn to think for himself, you know, how much. Of, you know, often it going to life and, you know, coming across your own hard knocks that help develop your own moral character, whereas if, you know, from what I hear, his parents were highly influential in actually. And helping him start the business in the

first place in which case, you know, who's, I mean, whose parents are actually helping you start your business in your. In your first season, I mean, I know or late 20s, I mean, I know there are some people that do that, but. You know, if you're an individual who's kind of had to figure that kind of stuff out yourself, you tend to. You tend to come

up against obstacles that you kind of have to figure out yourself, which helped you develop your own moral character, but he was still. It seems like he was still very much. Under the influence of a lot of other people as much as he was able to kind of talk independently in front of many important people. I think if he was, if he was still surrounded in

such a. Close Nick community, I mean, you know, he was living in a community and obviously that can create a kind of group think mentality as well. So. Yeah, I mean, in terms of moral character, I don't think he was really old enough to fully develop his own independent character. I think he would. I get the impression he was strongly. I think he was very much

influenced by a lot of powerful people behind the scenes. And I think they have a lot. They have a lot to ask for for this whole. The battle as well at the moment. Sound is kind of getting the full. All of the criticism and there's not much. Thinking to kind of like, why don't who else maybe was for. I think he was it's almost like he

was kind of pushed up as the bad actor. To do to be the full guy for everything else. All of these powerful people behind the scenes of trying to do because he's clearly connected to a lot of people. Some who we have no idea about. I've only agreed with that. Yeah. So that would be my summary of the situation. It's a little I know about it.

I mean, I hadn't even heard of him in the last week. So obviously. Like everyone else, you know, I'm kind of diving into the story and and seeing how. I think how bad things are but you know, my impression. My impression on the face of it is there's way, way, way more to this story than we can even begin to figure out right now. I have

a question though. It's you know because you said that. You know, at the age of 29, you know, he's still kind of a child mentality and you may not have developed enough sense of right and wrong. But you know, if you go back and listen to some of the things he said a year ago. He spoke like in the. He spoke about altruism, spoke about all

the things he wanted to accomplish to bring good things into the world and help with with major issues like poverty, climate change, disease, all those sorts of things. And he spoke like someone who knew that subject matter. And so you know, it sort of like blows my mind that he could be that depression and that controlled by other people that he wouldn't be able to find

a moral code. Question for you. Yeah. Do you have children? I do. Okay. And and I think that is I have no children, but I've raised children. And I was my mother's little mom's partner as a kid and took care of a little brother as a child. But I think you can pretend to be an adult. All you want until you have your own child and

you have to raise a child in a world where your actions are changing the world that your child is living in. And I think he's probably deprived of that. The idea that. He's acting as an adult and until you have a child or your your responsible for a child, you really don't know what it is and not be a child until you have to take care

of a child. You could pretend to be an adult. All you want. But that doesn't really happen until you change diapers or you have to make sure kids doesn't die. And I think he's deprived of that. And maybe he has no maternal fatherly like instincts, which probably brings the moral compass straight. And you have that happen. Maybe that's just my two cents on that. I think

you made a really good point there. You're right. Having kids changes you when you're suddenly responsible for what I like to do. A little kamikaze that's trying to actively kill itself every minute of every day. It is. I think that's probably the only thing that I can do. I think that's probably why that these people were able to influence him because he was in a child

like mindset because he's still a kid. You know, when your balls drop, it doesn't mean you become a man. When you have to take care of other life forms, that kind of really doesn't more. And he hasn't maybe had that happen yet. And so these people around him were like, well, he listens to us. He does. He looks like an adult. He talks like an adult,

but we can tell him what to do like a child. I think it's frighteningly easy to brainwash people, especially in close proximity. I think with the involvement of his parents and his business in his 20s, I think says everything really. I wonder how much opportunity they've actually given him to figure things out for himself. He may have gone through the process of going to university or

whatever. But some parents are not going to be able to do anything. They're going to stay much more closely connected to their kids and highly influential if they don't give them the space to kind of grow. And it may well be that even if he wanted to have his own independence, you know, if he's got very controlling parents who are monitoring everything that he did with

very powerful connections with their own agendas that he's plotted into. I mean, obviously, I don't know the guy. I'm just guessing just from the things that I've seen, but you know, that all raises my suspicion as well. I think there's. Yeah, it's very difficult to judge him on his own moral character when he's not really been given the opportunity to develop it. I just think he

was planned as the fool by right from the beginning. And I feel a bit sorry for him really. I think there are many, many others who are connected to this who should have taken responsibility. I mean, it's a good and the same. If you've got if you've got investment, if you've got investors who are actually interviewing this guy while he's playing video games and they they

were impressed by that, rather than concerned. I mean, I'm sorry, but you know, they hold some responsibility apart from anything else. And because they're investing other people's money into into these cryptocurrency exchanges. So they also gave them legitimacy by doing that. And that made, you know, the the plebs and the young retail investors trust him more with their money. Absolutely. Propaganda is very, very powerful. And

so, you know, who's responsible for putting him on the cover of fortune magazine. And, you know, everyone else who hype this guy, you know, why aren't they doing their due diligence and. The same people that put Serato to see he all up there. You know, it's the same people that take advantage of young. Very large from the words that their parents cuddle too much. Yeah, exactly.

So, so there's there are many, many connections here. And I think that's the thing that I think is the most important thing to do. And, you know, yes, even though, you know, San Mike, Frank Tiles, who is overly influence. So that doesn't mean he escapes responsibility at all. But I think, you know, the people who raised him and the people around him, many of whom we

will probably never find out who they really are. There are not a lot of responsibilities. I just think that he was the public face of it. Let's open the center. I have an idea. Maybe this can answer your title. A Buddhist monk told me what that one hand is with them and one hand is morality. And when we wash our hands under a sink, we don't

wash them with one hand at a time. We use them both to lather each other. And so the more wise you get, the more moral you get, the more wise you get. But I think Sam was probably just washing his hands with all these wisdom people. Your wise, where wise, trust that. And he maybe didn't have that moral person giving him, you know, the moral conversations

and the moral advice. He just had a bunch of wisdom people around him. They were the wise men. And that you always need a guru next to you who tells you to shut the fuck up near me. Stupid, you know. Well, yeah, I mean, King, they're always surrounded by advisors. And actually they carry more power. You know, certainly throughout history, whenever you're in a group of

people, you know, you're not going to be able to do that. A leader, some of those some of those advisors have carried incredible power. And also the consequences when the King decided that he was fed up of them. It's like, you know, a lot of the advisors would help them become a King in the first place. And then when the King was powerful enough, a lot

of them then ended up giving their heads chopped off. So there's a lot of dynamic. When it comes to these sorts of situations and most of it is often hidden from us. So yeah, there's way, way more going on than I think we are. We could even begin to imagine I'm quite sure. Well, but a lot of it we can see his parents were law professors.

They work at Stanford University. He's got other connections like that. We know that Caroline's father was Ellison and that Ellison was the mentor of Gensler and that Gensler is the SEC chairman. And this helps a little bit. This definitely helps you get in the door. Maybe you get a little bit of life. You get a leader treatment, but at its core, I think there still needs

to be some due diligence, just even just a little bit. Now, when I when I used to work for the lawyers, you could walk around the lawyers office and nothing against the lawyers, but they all kind of had square backgrounds. It's like most of them family picture the family pictures of the children. And you're like, oh, I could trust this lawyer. He's got a family. He's

got children. He's tied to the community. He's not just going to run off with my money. He's not going to not finish my case. It's hard or because he has gambling or something else he wants to do, right? With this Sam guy when you hear the very basics of the story. And at some point, someone has to know I don't know if you work there or

if you're investing in you have to say, okay, well, where, where do you live, Sam? Oh, I live in a giant apartment in the Bahamas with five of my best friends. Oh, really? And you know, which ones and what do they do and who do you date, Sam. And who's your girl? And if there's any kind of questions like this, I think they would have not

invested and they would have warned people about it. They would have said, that's trouble. But I don't, I don't know that person yet. I don't know if we have a guy out there who's been waving his hand against FTX this whole time. And maybe he had a meeting with him. Maybe he knew something. I've seen a lot of people who are like, Oh, yeah, in hindsight,

in retrospect, when I think about it, it does seem very odd. But surely there must be someone who walked away from this guy. Where are those people? Oh, see, we got to go down Menlopark and knock on every door at every BC office and say, show us your blog books on who came in here and pitched to you and see all the VC companies that FTX

pitched to their in Silicon Valley that said, no, because that's all not necessarily public, but there's records of that. And I'm sure there's plenty of people that told them you're crazy, you know. To play to play devil's advocate with Victoria's idea here, maybe there isn't there isn't this trail of failure. Maybe everything just kind of went well. And he pitched the idea over the dinner table

to some powerful people and the other powerful people invested. And then they all just kept investing and that everyone else followed on. But it does seem like a very strange strange situation where so many people just follow on and no one does their due diligence at all. And it's set up. And the Bahamas, like if they had to put it at the bottom of the ad,

like FTX is set up in the Bahamas, you might never see your money again. Side effects include dot, dot, dot, we have all these horrible ads here in the US. You guys don't know, but they're all prescription ads. And they all come with a little side effects include horrible medical actions. We'd never say. Yeah. Lots of feeling. Yeah. There was nothing like that on these FTX

commercials. The networks just ran them like side effects include. Ponzi scheme that could cost you all your money and make everyone globally lose faith in Bitcoin. Oh, that's pretty bad. Maybe we shouldn't do that. I saw his face on the side of a port of potty. I've never opened an FTX account specifically because of that. That shit scared me literally. See, so at least at that

fit in that case, the advertising worked. Daniel, what do you think? If you saw Sam's face everywhere, like you said, 2019, this guy just appeared. You know, sure we were. He used to Jesse Powell and Brian Armstrong and a lot of other players in this industry. But all of a sudden we had a brand new player. And he was greater than everyone else. I heard about

him first when he bought Blockfolio. Daniel's gone. Victoria, when did you hear of him? You say it was even more recent than that? Yeah, just last week. I have no idea who was. I've basically heard of F.J. because I have the block folio out from my friend. I've had a phone and then all of a sudden, because when the whole thing kicked off, I looked at

with FTX. I think that's a very interesting line of questioning as well. But no, I didn't hear about it. Last week was the first time I heard of it. And to your point about the fact that, you know, maybe he was just a really good investor and the whole thing reorganically. I don't think so. I think there's, I don't think you get that big that quickly

by accident. I think I think it was planned. I think it was a montage. I just watched the secret to my success, this 80s movie and all the exciting business stuff. I think it's possible that ultimately unlikely. I mean, there's always a little bit of ignorance more than like evil doing and malicious planning. A lot of stupidity happens on accident and carelessness and negligence. I think

it's possible that ultimately unlikely. And I think to reiterate that a lot of the VC people are stupid and they don't know what they're doing and they're spending other people's money and they have like blank checks. And they feel like it's their job to just throw money away like the grant. And hopefully they get something back and it makes them feel important. And I think those

people build up this guy who may be other powerful people were like, oh, let's do some money laundering through a crypto exchange and put one up in our hands. And the VCs didn't know that and they were just like, oh, Bitcoin, we're going to make a bunch of money on this kid and like two separate collaborating parties collided. And they weren't in on each other's agenda.

And this kid and his little orgy party of friends in the Bahamas had no ideas. They were being played by both sides like that. Yeah, I mean, I think I think ignorance. And with stupidity has some part to play in the failure, but you don't get that successful without some level of someone's time to check for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you brought out something really

interesting, which was you talked about the block portfolio app. The first time I heard about him was actually on a podcast. It was Sam Harris making sense where you know, it was kind of open forum room to just talk about his alterism. And. So during that time, you know, the year ago, the market was going insane. Prices were heading to and all the time. Bye. Everyone

thought Bitcoin was going to hit triple digits, you know, the chick digit figure. And so yeah, he had an incredible run up. And it's probably the nature of the market that said, you know, everyone wanted to follow in and took his word for it. But this is the kid. Probably I'm using the word kid because clearly that's what he is. If you're, you know, obsessed here.

You know, probably didn't have a lot of friends in school. And so he had all this money. He didn't know what to do with it. And was, you know, let the whole thing go to his head. And now he could do anything he wanted. Clearly what he wanted to do was. He makes more money than anyone had ever seen before. And so they all wanted to

hit their wagon to his, you know, his start. I think there were elements of that definitely, you know, people love to be associated with success. So it may well be that he attracted people like that. So there are elements. There may well be elements of that. But even so, you don't get that big that quickly without something else going on. I just don't believe it. So

I think that's what I'm going to do. Well, let's let's talk a little bit more about the takeover of the block folio app. What a clever move to get to everyone in crypto because everyone I knew in crypto, they were all using the block folio app. And it didn't care what exchange you used, right. But one day it got taken over and it started recommending FDX

and I never made an account. And then they changed like Victoria said they changed the name of the app the entire app became the FTX app. Now certainly a little of the business is there in what Binance did to coin market cap coin market cap was the same kind of thing. A generic source of information. You find out what's going on with the alt coins. You

could sort them and rank them and all that kind of stuff. But pretty soon. Binance purchased coin market cap. And it didn't change that much. They just put a thing on each one where it's like if you want to buy this crazy alt coin, you can get it at Binance. And in the same way FTX did that, but even going a step further. Changing the name

of the app. That makes me think of someone's tweet. I saw yesterday that said, thanks to KYC and anti money honoring policy, a bunch of criminals in the Bahamas now have millions of people's passports phone numbers, IDs and home addresses. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, it's, you know, that's all exchanges. But maybe in the hearing that's going to show up in Congress in the next day or two.

I don't know when that is. But I saw that it was there was one that was a rain. Maybe someone could bring that tracked up that decent. And the whole system was built on Bitcoins back was to not have personal identifying information and they didn't need your credit card in your home and your phone number in your name. So that's from Twenth. And the whole world

wouldn't steal it from their website. And now we have a honey pot of criminal activity that is in possession of privacy data that, you know, every marketer's wed dream that a FTX is going to auction off all their assets. Of sure that privacy data is considered an asset that they could sell to anyone. And, you know, it's better than being leaked on the black market. It's

official. And so that's got to be brought up like, why are we giving personal identification? Information to exchanges that, you know, whether they're good actors now that they may not be one day like this. And they're even getting regulators trusting them. And then they go bad. And now they're sitting on personal identifying information that can be compromising you as citizens and consumers. That should be brought

up in court or at least in Congress that like, this is why we don't want KYC stuff pushing on Americans when it comes to finance. It's worse. And then you have to be able to get some Facebook taking your data and selling it. This is financial data and your home address and things like that. So maybe that should be really brought up. You know, and you're

banking information and your household income and all those things are available. This is these types of criminals. This is exactly the thing that under a cent and upwards made videos about you know, specifically about how. No matter how secure you think the data is. It's always, we always get packed. It always gets. You know, you set a honey pot for hackers, scammers, anyone who has any

nefarious goal to try to impersonate you, take advantage of you, try to sell you things, try to scam you in any way. This is just exactly the thing that Bitcoin was designed to do away with. Here we are creating nothing but centralized services that people are globally giving their information to without even being able to do it. Yeah, absolutely. And not only that with Blockfolio, you

know, everyone kind of keeping track of which coins they had as well, you know, you've got all, you've got all that, all that. So there were also stories of the fact that the app had been hacked. So in the process of deleting it, you know, you could accidentally open it and get that malware on your phone. And it was never actually an app that you wanted

in the first place. You know, you, you download it. Because you wanted something else. And in the process of the, of a dysfunctional company taking over something that you trusted, you could extroge yourself to all sorts of things about your consent. So, yeah, I mean, it raises, it raises a whole lot of issues. And I think whoever is fighting the legislators definitely needs to make a

record of all of these points and research them and present them, you know, very avidly to the regulators. Because one of the problems with regulations is the unintended consequences. That's always the problem with regulation with regulations. And of course, regulations go along with the, with the existing, you know, financial system. And I mean, basically, the app currency is based on the rules that we make. You

know, it's not a free market currency because it's not operating in the way it was originally designed like the gold standard. And so, for its operator tool, the idea is to manage the different pots of money to make sure that it's fairly distributed in society. And you make laws in order to help facilitate that. That was the original idea. But, you know, a hundred years later,

we're all, we're all observing that it hasn't worked like that at all. And every year that goes by, it just gets worse and worse. And, you know, I really think it's going to reach a tipping point where people aren't going to take it anymore. Fortunately, we've got an opportunity with BTC, but with Bitcoin. But the whole thing is going to be a bit more complicated. And

the whole conversation is being diluted by these other cryptocurrencies, the devastation of this exchange completely devastates the whole reputation. The people who are in the space understand the distance between Bitcoin and other crypto currencies. So the average person doesn't. And, you know, especially with a lot of these regulators now signed to push CBCs onto us, you know, really is a race against time to try and

educate people. People and to help make them realize the choice that they have in front of them that they're making. But people, people tend to lose their minds when they get scared. It's like the pandemic, you know, people lose all ability to be rational. And they want to be guided by someone else who seems to know what they're doing. But the trouble is, if the people

who supposedly know what they're doing, don't have a clue, the danger is they can take you in definitely the wrong direction. So we need to be very, very careful and we really need to advocate to be able to help them realize what's going on. It's very important. Well, I'm still kind of marveling at how clever this block folio takeover was. If you think about it, like

you're saying that he gets all the data from the app, I know a lot of people who never linked block folio to an exchange. And you'd kind of think of it as like a notepad. You're like, well, you know, on my notepad, I've got this much of this and this much of that. And then you could see it on a chart, which was the benefit of

the app. But if I think about that in aggregate, if there were a thousand users or more or whatever, Sam just got a thousand users notepads. He got a thousand, you know, how much they had or how much they wish they had or what they were thinking about buying or selling because you could kind of test out your trades. You could kind of look at your

charts in there. So I think that's an incredibly clever to get the data. And it is a big difference. Like Victoria said that, whereas coin market cap, I just went there and I left behind my IP address. Right. But with an app like block folio, you have to go through the Apple app store. You have to have that verification where they really did have some useful

information on me. And if they're lucky, they could buy more information and connect that as well. And I think Morgan also had a great point on the information that they were forced to collect. Certainly for a libertarian company or libertarian minded person, you'd be like, no, we don't want to collect IDs. No, this is bad. But if you look at the other way, like Morgan saying,

you're creating this fantastic collection of data that you could sell off afterwards. And we'll all have to keep an eye on FTX. And once upon a time in the future, there'll be a story and they'll be like, yeah, they're buying the logos and the leftover company data and something like that, but they're not getting the debt. And whoever does that, that's going to who's going to

end up with our block folio information, as well as anybody who used FTX, all of their past ports, all of their financial information, all of their bank account, so it is a valuable thing still. My assumption would be that someone does chain analysis on phone numbers, IP addresses, home addresses. And even though you didn't connect a Bitcoin or Ethereum address to the notepad amounts of what

you were watching, all I have to do is go look up those amounts on the blockchain and correlate them to an address. If I see you were watching an Ethereum, a Dogecoin and a Bitcoin amount, and I find those three amounts, I can connect the date, I can connect the phones, I can connect the home addresses from that information, and build a whole profile NSA style

on what coins you had, even that you are watching that weren't connected to in a address. Like that all could be done by most likely a law enforcement or a federal agency or an intelligence agency, but whoever buys that, if they're working with the cops, that's like all that data from all these people that they were sharing their addresses, they were just watching what they had

on cold storage, that all that got spider web connected by someone, whether it has happened yet, or it already did, or it will, that data is there now, and it's never going to go away. Well, and in a way, though Morgan, the cops might be the good side of that equation. If the police were looking at it, it might be worse where organized crime or something

like that is looking at it as people to steal from. And they're gathering all this data and they're connecting it to the FTX data and they've bought all this data. So it really is pretty important who wins these bankruptcy auctions as much as we won't even, we won't even hear about the sale until it's done. It's not like we can't change that. That's the ethics and

moral question. Thomas, who gets the data one day and not the money because the money's all made up for all FTP token money and all stable coin money. That shit was all just made up, but the data is real. And we don't know what to do. The problems that data in the long run has a big chunk of the entire cryptocurrency community's info in their pocket.

And then that is either used by Dr. Evil or by Jesus. And we don't know who's going to get it yet. Before the IRS. You know, and not just the IRS, the IRS versions in every other country around the world that are even scarier than the IRS. I would love to see a real deep investigation of this by a journalist, but I don't know if anyone

is even brought that up yet. There needs to be some investigative journals on this specific issue just on the block. Not even anything else connected to FTX because you're right. This is exactly what it was. It was purchasing customer data to be used for any purpose that they could dream of. And now if this falls, you know what anyone. I'll send it to Bitcoin magazine as

an idea since Thomas has these records. But if no one does it, I'll write some shit up. I know how to write. So all all messages to coin magazine. And we'll see if they will be interested in posting something like that. Cause I've written for them before. I do think that the block folio aspect of this hasn't really been explored. And I used to just say

it as, you know, oh, I'm upset because I like the block folio app. But as we discussed this more with Victorian, we talked about the underlying data and everyone kind of admits to themselves that they used it like a notepad, right? They're like, well, I had 10 Bitcoin. What if I had a hundred? Well, G was, you know, and you could look at the chart. And

then for some people, I'm sure it was fantasy money. They're like, Oh, yeah, you know, what if I bought this and that. And I look at that little fun app. But for other people, like Morgan saying they're, they're unintentionally revealing their wealth to this application, which was purchased by this giant scam. And I figure if we don't talk about it, it will get forgotten. It'll get

swept up in the rest of it. I'll never talk about the block folio aspect. Well, you know, Thomas, that's when I learned about SPS, who was when the app, you know, was bought. And I was always in, you know, attention on what was going on in the Bitcoin company space. And I was like, you know, very unmoved by that. Someone find that has no idea who

it was. Didn't know it was going to be an exchange. I just thought someone was going to add it. You know, like zero block was added to block chain. And then they made it go away. I thought that was what was going to happen. I didn't realize they were going to build a new exchange on top of that app. You know, but that was the first

time I've even heard of that. Yes. Well, and what a clever idea in retrospect to build your exchange on top of this coin tracking app. That's probably the end of that coin analytics. What analytics was this? The core reason FTX was made not to just move money around, but the data might have been the whole reason this was all put together, which could be holy shit

big, you know. It's got potential. Let's see if we can bring up the audience here. I'm going to ask some people to speak. If you guys want to come up here and tell us your ideas about Sam's morals, or if you're interested in this block folio connection, which is a. I think it's a little bigger than I would think it was. When we started this chat,

so maybe we'll chat about this again in the future. Just try to raise awareness around this idea. Not everyone is running up to the stage here. So I think we'll head towards the end of the show. Just one recap. Let's go Victoria Daniel and then Morgan Victoria. What do you think about what we've talked today about today about Sam's ethics and what about the idea here

that the block folio app takeover could be much more important than anyone else is paying attention to? Yeah, I mean Sam's moral character and a whole host of other people connected to him, I think, all needs to be examined. That's how I would summarize that up. And yeah, I think data mining is incredibly valuable. I mean, you just have to go onto a website and, you

know, reject their cookies and see how many companies will access to the fact that you just clicked on that website when you realize how valuable. So yeah, you're right. I mean, even if all of the coins lose all their value, that data is valuable for the people who know how to use it. So yeah, it's definitely a. A subject that is worth talking about and raising

awareness of as well. And Daniel, what do you think? I think people have been decently sized to the lack of privacy that now exists in every place that they go, whether it's. Social institutions, social media sites, it's almost like people don't even care about these things anymore. And I think as someone who takes bit points seriously and takes privacy seriously, that's alarming. Because now, like everyone

here said, the data is out there and exists somewhere on a server, a centralized server that can now be the access by anyone. You don't know who's going to end up with this data. And so, you know, we've seen. All sorts of hacks over the years, every health care company, every financial institution, every few years, you know, every few months, you get a report about something

like this happening. And then, you know, what does your credit card company do with the data bridge? Oh, they send you a year of pre credit monitor. That doesn't matter in this space because with Bitcoin and with cryptocurrency, it's your, it's so easy to, I think, give off your privacy. And then. So it's extremely alarming. It's probably the biggest story of this whole thing as far

as I'm concerned now that I'm thinking about it. Of course, a lot of the people's funds and it's tragic. That also makes the case for. Self-sabuses, the whole storage. We're holding your own key. But also holding your own privacy is incredibly important. And I think people aren't taking that. That's seriously. Well, Morgan, I think you got watergate on your hands right here. That's all right, man.

I didn't want to be called deep throat, but I'll fucking do it, man. Well, I think if you, if you write up just a little bit about what we're talking about, block folio being taken over. And that a lot of people used it as a note pad combined with. Yeah. Kind of larger libertarian argument that SBF collected everyone's past ports and they held up the ID

pictures and all that kind of thing. And that that data is going to be sold afterwards and that the block folio data is going to be sold afterwards and that the trading data and just kind of resentering this on not just the money, but also the data and just all identifiably. And what a clever thing they did taking over block folio. And that it is. And

you know what? I would ask you since you and me are some of the old guys in the room. How many times in the past? Because the malgox was in Japan and was very anonymous. You know, using bit instant other intermediaries to wire money to it. Is this person who's potentially the biggest set of customer personal identifying data in one place in the crypto space so

far? Because I know coin base probably has more and crack in and and circle and those things that bought Poloniacs. I'm sure they have some data. But this must be the biggest like personal identifying information data set available since cryptocurrency was created. This might be the most common assumption. Well, and this is definitely going to go up for sale. This is the biggest set that's going

to go up for sale. So maybe that's in the headline somewhere. Do the YouTube catch. Yeah. What's what's a crack and CEO's name again. I can't remember his name Jesse Powell. Jesse Jesse. I saw Jesse on Bloomberg the other day saying and that he was personally asked, are you considering buying any of the assets or the company? And he said, well, they have some interesting stuff

available. For auction, people literally said, well, they have maybe we could buy their customers or maybe we can buy some of their licenses. But we already have the exchange software and things that they have. We don't want any of those assets, the digital assets. But he specifically said we can maybe buy their customers and maybe buy their licenses. And so when the auction goes up, the

hot commodity is not going to be the shit coins. It's going to be the licenses. And then the customers. And if you buy the customers, you're buying their data, their personal identifying data. So I'm sure that the fact that he said that and he was already in discussions with them, I'm sure they already hawked the personal identifying data to crack and say, hey, would you be

willing to buy this from us? Because finance doesn't want to buy it from us. And so they're probably already putting that stuff up for sale, which is scary to think about it now that they're also selling the block, folio chain analysis of everyone's wallets that were being sold. That's a heavy sentiment, you know. Morgan, do you remember it was, I think, a few years ago when

Coinbase, volunteer, and then send all their customer records directly to the IRS. Well, yeah. This is going to get situated. No question about it. I will say that. I remember Coinbase. I remember Coinbase saying that the IRS asked for everything. And they only turned over anyone who traded more than $20,000 in one transaction. It was a couple hundred people at the time, but they publicly refused

to give them the password to every Coinbase account. And so they may have been asked for personal identifying information and kind of plotted a little bit. That's what it seemed like to me. But FTX is not in a position to fight. They're just going to sell everything. They have no standing ground like Coinbase to go. No, we're not going to do that. We'll lawyers. They don't

even have lawyers anymore. So that's even scarier because I mean Coinbase is a common company. But in my opinion, being in America and the way Brian speaks publicly, they're probably not necessarily a good or bad actor, a neutral actor weighing a little bit on the good side. They have money to say, fuck you. They have fuck you money. And FTX doesn't have any Bitcoin. They have

no fuck you money. So they're going to sell that data to whoever asked. And I imagine you have to IRS the CFC, CFC asked them today. Hey, we want to see who was using the CFC. We're going to exchange for checking out terrorists. Oh, here's everything. We have nothing left to sell. Would you buy from us? Like that scary. Don't forget they still have to pay

back $60 million in naming rights by FTX Arena. They need the money. And I'm telling you right now that personal identifying data. It's not a commoditized thing publicly on how much it's worth, like how much is a phone number in the name and address work and an email address. I'll tell you as someone who's worked with the military, if you connect an IP address, a phone

number, a Bitcoin address, an Ethereum address, a home address, all together. And some money that would pay for that shit, which is scary. Well, I think we're going to be talking about this more in the future. The blockchain data or the block folio information is a big deal. And it will be up for sale. Obviously, our best case scenario is that somehow the users would form

a group. That group would raise a bunch of money and then they'd get this data and destroy it. That's very unlikely. I think it's much more likely, like Morgan said, for someone like Crackin or Binance or another up and coming player, maybe a new organization wants to make a new exchange to buy it with the guys of buying the customer list, but the reality of getting

everything else, which might be far greater than what was previously imagined. I'd like to thank Morgan, Daniel and Victoria for joining me up here. Everybody for hanging out. This is going to be recorded. It'll be on the World Crypto Network at worldcryptonetwork.com. Also thanks to proper goal and moonshine fuel for hanging out in the chat. Good hang with you guys too. We'll do these maybe more

in the future. We'll try to schedule them like Daniel said, but it's kind of fun. Just to do when I had an idea, like I was watching that commentary and I was talking about character and ethics. And you know, does he have any. So thanks so much for joining us. Until next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. God bless