The Bitcoin Group #341 - Price Up - Gemini Genesis

The Bitcoin Group, the American Original. For over the last 10 seconds, the sharpest Satoshi's, the best Bitcoin's, the hardest crypto currency talk. We'd like to welcome our panelists, Dan Eave, the crypto raptor. Greatings, folks. Josh Shigala from thestandard.io. Hey, folks. And I'm Thomas Hunt from the World Crypto Network, moving on to issue one, issue one, Bitcoin defies bad tidings to register its best week since 2021.

it's obviously just good news for the industry, showing how Bitcoin is a bit res, you know, has been resilient in all these turbulent times, all these, this infighting we've got going on with Genesis and Gemini and the FTX collapse and all these other companies that are feeling the brunt of the bear market. So it's always a nice thing to see Bitcoin's price going up. Even if

you don't own any, you're happy to just kind of see it go up unless unless you're one of those miserable folks who just always wants to see it go down. But ultimately, we're still not through this bear market. I don't think you know we're still over over 12 months away from just over 12 months away, right? About 14 months. So in theory, things should start to

kind of pick up around about, you know, around about now. Historically, January hasn't been the best month for Bitcoin though. So this may be a kind of is a dead cat bounce as they say in the triangle trading world, where you know, kind of or I don't know, but something like that. Anyway, I've got I don't know the terminology. It's all it's all astrology to me.

So yeah, I don't know if that if that's the case, I don't know if that's the case. But if the triangle is in the the side of tourists, then Bitcoin will go up. And if it's not, it goes down and all of that fund that brim fund that goes stuff, but nobody really knows. So just ignore the price and and focus on the cool stuff that's

happened. Of course, it comes from the old saying, even a dead cat could bounce, even a dead cat. So a very bad stock could bounce like a dead cat. Josh, she call it is that what this is or is as this is Dan mentioned, the Bitcoin have been in the evening already starting to have an effect. Yeah, I mean, I don't think this is a dead

cat bounce because they kept bounces usually happen after a really shocking decrease, like a very fast decrease. And then it'll bounce. This has been sort of fluffy and I mean, of course, the FTX news did render a massive, a massive down, downplay in the market, which then caused a little bit of a just basically not even a cat. Dead cat bounce, it was just sort of

moving sideways for the last sort of whatever it's been now month and a half, two months. So, but I feel that the market was already heading into springtime at just before the just before the FTX collapse. So we were looking at winter was sort of starting to thaw out, which was a long crypto winter. But generally what happens the higher the market, the longer the crypto

winters. So, I think that's the reason why I'm going to say that I'm going to be a little bit more careful. And this is kind of what's happened historically. We've seen a market pump. It's then gone on sideways. It pumps higher next time sideways is longer higher next time sideways longer. And so that correlation is, I think, happened as well. And just before the FTX collapse,

we saw the spring coming. And now the spring is starting to take off again. I feel that the whole governing stuff is kind of priced in should be anyway because we know what Bitcoin's worth in terms of how many there are. Sorry, not what's worth, but we know how many there there will be already. So, yeah, I just think we're heading people all the weekends of

left the building. Basically, that's what it comes down to over that long period. Anyone that's weak enough has left and now we're buying. The question is, does that mean that we're going to be able to get a new one? Because everyone know about the happening. Certainly we know about the happening, but maybe not everyone. Now it's your chance. Even you at home can play in the

chat, predict against the greatest predictor in all time of all of Bitcoin, the Bitcoin predictor ball. I believe said it was going to be higher last week. Dan, are you going to go with higher or lower this time next stop and be sticking with with lower. Dan Eves sticks with lower Josh, a gola also pessimistic. No, I think we're on a little bit of a rally.

We'll see you higher on next week. And here we are shaking the Bitcoin predictor ball. Will the price of Bitcoin be higher this time next week? My sources say no. My sources, you know, the ball is pessimistic joining in with Josh, Shagala, moving on to issue two crypto firms, Genesis and Gemini charged with by the SEC. They're going to be selling unregistered securities. That's right. Also

more Gemini and Genesis trouble in the news. Why the Winklevi brothers are in a $900 million crypto face off with Barry Silbert. It seems like the Gemini exchange owned by the Winklevi twins, remember Gemini means twins, had a product called earn where you could invest your money. Your money would then be given out to Genesis, different company owned by DCG, Genesis, then gave your money out

to FTX. And you know what happens next FTX lost the money in some kind of a dumpster fire. And now Genesis and Gemini and DCG, the Winklevi and Barry Silbert are all in complete free fall. They're saying that Silbert might even break up the digital currency group selling it off. In parts, a massive fall, a sudden collapse, Josh, Shagala, what do you think about the Gemini,

Gemini, Genesis, Winklevi, Silbert, DCG nightmare? Yeah, I mean, I think this is the contagion that people were looking for directly after the FTX. I had a feeling it would take a long time to shake out some of this contagion as people cover their positions and try to try to hide some of the damage. And this is what the legacy banking world does all the time. People

talk about crypto exchanges getting hacked, but actually banks get hacked all the time. And basically they just sweep it under the rug and hide it and cover it with insurances. But this is the whole reason and people need to look at this stuff. And I know that there are a lot of people that call everything a shit coin that's not Bitcoin. But we need to head

towards more defy. This is typical CFI crap that the CypherPunks wanted to get away from. We're trusting these centralized units to lend out. Look at it all. One company lends to another company that lends to another company. And every middleman takes a cut. And every middleman is another trust factor. It's nonsense. It's total nonsense. It's disgusting. And it needs to stop. And this is what we

built Bitcoin for. This is what we have. Cryptographic currency for. And that's the beauty of decentralized finance protocols. You know, the main, the main ones being right now on Ethereum. But this is what we need to do. The problem with CFI is that you can have as many, you know, transparency protocols like we have a Valtora with the glass books protocol or like like a crack

and has using Peter Todd and Gregory Maxwell. But they cannot show you liabilities. So if you have thousands of Bitcoin sitting on your balance sheet and you make a secret contract with someone to use that as a. As leverage for for getting, you know, more furniture in your office. You cannot show that cryptographically. So defy it does allow you to prove everything cryptographically because it's all

based on smart contracts. Look smart contracts are also not. Infallible, you know, that they can be hacked and stuff. So, so there's no panacea, but. This human corruption is what we're we're stepping away from now. The, the, the spaghetti that's coming out of the FTX collapse is going to be huge. That very silver. I do believe that the digital currency group is far too far too

powerful in this space. They have coin based that like they have a whole bunch of a key. There's a key players under that umbrella. And so being able to break that up through. Hey, greed. And this is what's beautiful about capitalism. It actually greed causes people to risk things. And then that doesn't work every time. And so we, we're hopefully the silver lining of this might

be that there's more decentralization in some of these key infrastructure points. Well, and Josh, I'm sure you remember this. Remember when DCG used all that power and tried to take over Bitcoin, we'd have the whole Bitcoin fight. And they wanted to do Bitcoin 2x where they would double the block reward after the fight. It didn't seem like it was needed. But they had this little New

York agreement. And a lot of that was centered around Barry, silver and the digital currency group. And even the earlier fight with Bitcoin and the blocks seemed like it was a lot about Brian Armstrong and other people who wish that they could control the Bitcoin pro. To say, Hey, my, my business needs big blocks or my business needs small blocks. And they could pick up the

phone call the programmer on the phone and say, Hey, do this. And of course, we know you can't do that with Bitcoin. So it probably is good for the Bitcoin ecosystem. If someone can't try a takeover like this, Josh, where did you think of the DCG Bitcoin 2x debacle? Yeah, I mean, look, you know, open transparency there. I also signed the 2x thing under. As vaulted

so. So there was a stalemate. No one was bugging. So the 2x was away for us to go, Okay, let's have a compromise. Let's lift the blocks by twice as much, the block size limit and then we can also have segred. Yeah, done. The thing was that I reversed that signature once we'd actually once Bitcoin cash had forked off, I said, we don't need it anymore.

And I removed my signature from that list because we now had the big blockers now had the experiment of going with big blocks and Bitcoin could actually go and move forward and use put segred in. We'd removed that stalemate. So I do agree with you though that large companies being up to sway programmers is a bit sketchy that the thing is about Bitcoin and the beautiful

thing about Bitcoin and its architecture. It doesn't matter what the programmers do. The programmers could could have done what Barry wanted and what we signed for. It's the people holding all the nodes and all the miners would have to upgrade to that software. And that's a lot harder to do to convince all of those people to do what you want as a single business that has

a lot of infrastructure. Well, obviously, full disclosure here. I used to work at purse.io, which was a DCG portfolio company. I only got to meet Barry one time at an incredible Napa wine retreat. I also met the guy who was running Genesis trading at the time. He was a huge mad Bitcoin fan. So it was very cool. The Genesis trading guy. I've always admired Barry for

what I thought was correct investing. I felt if I had been in his shoes to build a portfolio to invest in coinbase and purse, cracking so many other early Bitcoin companies and to support them and really give us that ecosystem, that ecosystem, that infrastructure that we've needed to get Bitcoin out to more people. I thought that was awesome. I also thought the Winkelvi, although I think

it was more envy. It was impressive that they had the money to buy Bitcoin with at the time. And they made a huge investment into Bitcoin. Both of these things should have taken care of both of these groups forever. But I think that it was too much greed. They saw the ability to get those returns on FTX. They cycled them through Genesis. They cycled them through

Gemini. And they offered huge returns for the earn program, just like we've seen with these other programs going down after they take on the lending. Dan, Eve, what do you think about DCG and their battle with Gemini? It really is a battle of the giants. They're too longstanding Bitcoin advocates. There's some interesting things about this case. The Winkelvi twins are kind of blaming Gemini. They said

things like, what was it? Those funds belonged to customers, including a school teacher or a police officer, a single mom who lent her education money to you. Don't lend you education money out to a random company. That's a bad mistake to be made. It's a risky thing. To give it to a cryptocurrency company that's going to be lending it out to someone else. But for them

to blame Gemini, the two G's, the GE's, Genesis for it. They've got to be take responsibility themselves. And the fact is that they maybe should have spread their risk. Not as you said, gone through Binsor greedy about the whole thing. But what happens in the normal markets when there's a recession is a big problem. There's a lot of people tend to default on their loans. If

the wages, the costs, the outstrip, the wages, then people default on loans. And in a bear market, you should be more prepared. And you'd think that these guys would be a bit more prepared for people defaulting on their loans and these sorts of issues. It said that the billion dollars that Barry Silver was meant to have loans. Genesis in order to kind of make up for

the funds was essentially a 10-year kind of higher you, which didn't really make much difference. So, you know, they're obviously understandably a bit pissed by that because of the fact that they thought their situation was a bit more secure than it was. But ultimately, we go back to this time and time again. But if you've, if you've got your Bitcoin, you're giving your Bitcoin out to

someone else, then you've got to be prepared for it to be lost. Because that's what's happened in the real world. And cryptocurrency may be a big problem. And especially where it's, dare I say, where it's unregulated, there are less protections in place. The government's not going to bail out like Gemini, for example, or Genesis, which they will do a normal bank. So you've actually weirdly got

no protection in a normal bank. But people are chasing those, those, they were chasing the API. AP wise, right? They wanted the big gains. They wanted the 20% that like Voyager were earning. And they weren't prepared for all that they didn't really think about the risk that comes associated with giving your money to someone else. And it goes back again to trace mayor and the issues

with re-hypothication where the money goes to someone else who gives it to someone else who gives it to someone else who gives it to someone else. And then there's just a chain of unhappy people at the end of it where, you know, if both FTX and three hours capital stuffed it and then as a result, Genesis Gemini stuffed it and then as a result, Genesis stuffed

it. So, you know, and then they're going to be able to do that. And then the customers of Gemini did. So yeah, it's a sad chain of events, but not your coins. And sometimes, especially with Bitcoin, if you think about it, you're holding Bitcoin because ultimately obviously it's sound money, but you know, you're holding it because it's facing with, you think it's going to appreciate over

the long term. So just be happy with the fact that your Bitcoin is going to appreciate over an X-E period. And don't try and give it to someone who's going to give you more. All it's seeming like now is that all these companies that say they can give you an interest rate that's really high are just as bad as give me one Ethereum and I'll give

you two Ethereum scams or give me one Bitcoin and I'll send you two Bitcoin back scams, you know, and I'm not calling them scams, but they're not very reliable. So they're kind of seeming, you know, like they're on the same reliability level as these scams. Go ahead, Josh, more on this. I don't buy the fact that they didn't think about what the other company was doing.

Like, at Valtora.com, we have never lent our customer funds to anybody because it's just too risky. It's just too risky. And if we were to offer a product to say, hey, our clients, let us invest your stuff for you. Our, our company, Valtora.com, if we were to do that, which we probably wouldn't, but if that was an option, man, would we want to know exactly what

the company is doing that we're doing? How are you exactly getting the API that you're getting? And either they say contractually, we do XYZ and we sign off on that. All we don't. Now, if the company that we're lending it out, we're not going to do that. Say, well, we're lending it out to another company. Then that's just already like Gargarland. And there are so many,

there are ways to earn an API that are fairly risk free. They're not risk free. There's nothing risk free, but risk minimized. And that's over collateralization. Again, that's the defy mechanism rather than the C fire mechanism, which always goes for like, hey, we could get more people borrowing if we just don't need so much collateral from them. And this is that, that, you know, a little

bit of, a little bit of bait at the end of the hook that's going to get you. But yeah, I don't buy the fact. I think this, obviously, if you're in a CEO and you've got it mad customers at you, at your neck, you were having, you have to shift the blame. But at the end of the day, all of these companies are to blame. There's

no one they can't do. They can point their finger out and go, they're the ones that are at fault. No, no, no, they're all at fault here because they're all playing with shenanigans. They're not dumb people. They do their due diligence and they decided that it was good enough. It's my take. It's interesting, Josh, because there's faults at every level of the chain, right? It starts

off. You've got Jenna Gemini. They want to offer this earned product, but they don't know how to get the money for the earn. So in a total custody, disaster, they take the funds and they give them to Genesis. Now in the past, I believe that Genesis used to do this kind of stuff in house and that they were trade. I don't know alt coins, derivatives, futures,

you know, magical potions and quantitative analysis. And they would get back these returns. Now I don't know what happened. I have no inside information from these companies. I don't know anybody that works there. But it seems to me something happened at Genesis decided instead of them investing the money, they should give the money to F TX. Now maybe F TX has a bigger ball to roll.

And if you're rolling through whatever this investment is, you have a big enough snowball. It's a lot better. It's a lot easier. Whatever it is, a decisions made. And this becomes a three company deal. And that's where I think it starts to shift out of control. Because now everyone needs a cut of this money. There needs to be such a large return that each one of

these companies can profit and still be fine. And the end user gets to profit too. It just seems like a lot of. There's a lot of engineering profit to pull out of one system. And I know Barry and others have blamed it. It's because of the criminal element. And it's because of, you know, basically saying it without saying it of Sam. And it seems to me

there's a lot more than just Sam at stake here, there's way too much profit to get out of one system. But then I like the fact that they're also having to go and having to go the SEC saying like, you know, say that it's totally counterproductive to be. So, you know, we're going up on us for selling securities that we were clearly very much selling, you

know, these high yield products. But ultimately, you know, the people making money don't want regulation. People losing money. One regulation. So there's all this constant battle and the more people that get burned by this chain of companies, you know, it was just the FTX company. So just the FTX customers, but obviously there was, you know, block five get word Celsius. Three arrow capital. Then. Then Gemini

now and Genesis and FTX, Alameda, you know, as these grow, there's going to be more of a call for for regulation. So these big companies operating the way they do are bringing the regulation upon us by not acting in a in a sensible manner and hedging their risks properly and being so blas A about holding people's cash. And I actually, I couldn't imagine what it's like

to actually run one of these. Companies because if someone gives me 10 pounds, like they lend me 10 pounds and until I pay back that 10 pound debt, I'm like, oh my god, I owe them 10 pounds. I've got to get rid. I've got us paid them back, you know, at one point during the ball run of 2017, someone gave me some coins that were. Ended

up being worth a lot putting that way a lot, lot, lot more money than I ever known. And I couldn't and I was like, I need to give you your tokens back like why am I holding them for you? It's the worst thing ever. But these people that have run these companies where they hold other. People's money, they're just so blas A about it. They're just

let's just shove it here and shove it there and who really cares. And I'm sure it wasn't just like that. But ultimately, a lot of people could just seen this coming a mile off, especially, you know, it's the whole thing if you don't put all your eggs in one basket, it seems them are very much over leverage, not over leverage, but over, but over there very

much over burdened by this failure of jealousists to pay the funds back. So, you know, these are basic premiums. And I think that's the main purpose of risk management that you'd think companies like this would would have implemented. But now, you know, things are failed. So they're asking for silver to be, you know, to step down or to be removed from the board and they're angry

at the SEC, the winkel vitamins and everything's chaotic. But big, but it's still pretty resume. So, you know, I'm going to go on bad and there's no money and then you get a phone call and it's like, Oh, the SEC is investigating you now. It's just when things go wrong. They just go so wrong. And like Dan said, the price of Bitcoin looks like it might

recover. Who knows maybe the winkel I could have just held onto their coins and done nothing at all. Exit question, predict the future. Will they break up the digital currency group? And will it be a surprise? Good thing for Bitcoin. Dan Eve. I don't know if it will break up. You know, it might be resilient and whether the storm, you know, silver, although he's been into

into shit coins has been a big Bitcoin advocate from the start. So you'd hope that he's not too exposed to the shit coin or either that it's gone on and they're stacking a lot of actual Bitcoin. There, there could be another kind of although I was going to say there could be a lot of silver lining, but a positive that comes along. And then we're going

to go down the line, which is I'll be still waiting for a spot ETF decision, although that's probably been that's probably the other window now, isn't it? Because who are the two biggest campaigners? Aren't they Genesis in Gemini? So yeah, that may not be that may not go down so well. But again, ultimately it's, you know, I'd prefer if the, you know, it would be better

for the ecosystem of these companies didn't fall because even though they're nothing to do with Bitcoin. You know, they're there. It would be good if people could kick they could give something like that. That money back and the fact is that any negative connotations relating to companies that trade Bitcoin. So, you know, it's bad for the adoption of Bitcoin. So yeah, I hope they, I hope

everyone sorts it out and they all kiss and make up and they recover money and everyone's friends again and Bitcoin goes to the moon. Josh, Shagala. Yeah, there's an old trope in Bitcoin that says, this is a big coin. It was actually good for Bitcoin. You know, whenever there was a huge calamity, there'd be someone in Bitcoin talk forums or on the reddit subreddit saying, this

is actually really good for Bitcoin. So I'm going to go with that old trope. I'm going to agree with Josh. I think they will break up the digital currency group. I think it'll be good for Bitcoin, but special bonus prediction. Bad for coin desk. Coin desk. The company that helped kick off the FTX disaster by exposing it ruined their parent company DCG and will probably be

sold off to someone who takes wants to take their reliability and their reputation and use it for commercial purchases purposes. Coin desk will be a shadow of itself in the future. Check out World Crypto Network dot com. We got videos by topic. Yes, we've got tons and tons of topics. Maybe even some of them are going to be in the future. We've got 1700 of them.

You can click on any of them to check out the videos that we did. Here's one about the Satoshi round table. We can go back. Here's one about the bank of England. Look, three videos about the bank of England. You can click them all right here at worldcryptonetwork.com. We've also got an update in the side standings. Dan Eve is chasing tone veys for the most appearances

on the show. And Joshua Shagala has passed a song for the most appearances on the show. Moving on to issue three FTX liquidators lost $74,000 in wrapped Bitcoin in an embarrassing on chain faux pas. Something about some strange coin that they moved and they had to have the capital there. They move the capital away and the loan of the strange coin was taken away from them,

costing them for wrapped Bitcoins. Meanwhile, the major media wants to know who guaranteed Sam Bankman frees 250 million dollars. A million dollar bond. As we all said, the parent's house was worth a few million throw in the Ants house, maybe a couple more million. That's not 25 million. That's not 10% of 250 million. Who put the money up? They say that they can't tell us because

they didn't tell us about Jizzilane Maxwell. And they were sex crimes in that case. But this is a financial crimes case. Joshua Shagala, what do you think about FTX, the lost money and now the questionable bond? It's really hard to speculate on this one, but it is very suspect with all his political connections on both sides of the aisle. More publicize on the democratic side. And

because they're in power, I guess there would be more push there because they are in the same way. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to say about it. It is suspect and it needs a misdication. It is unfortunate when things like this seem to feed the conspiracy theories around things. Of course, we all know he gave money to Democrats and Republicans. So both

parties could actually want to keep him out of jail, want to keep him in out of trouble. And it's very curious as well. They say the reason they're not telling us who put up the money. The bond is because they could get bad press the way the parents and everyone else involved in this has gotten bad press. Well, they should get bad press. Why are we

protecting them? I thought this was some kind of egalitarian American system. Right. Dan Eve, they're not telling us he took the bond, but they sure did lose the money. What do you think of FTX this week? No, I think I'm with Josh. I think that the politics part where he was such a big day later, you know, in general. It's both Democrats and Republicans mean that

he's probably got there's probably a lot of people will want to hide their involvement. And there may be, you know, he kind of they said that they were going to pull strings for FTX. And now that Sandbank and Freeze going down, they need he needed some strings pulled. Otherwise, he can release some, you know, some information. That, you know, that could be a conspiracy theory in

itself. But I think it's entirely logical that that's how this unfortunately, this is the kind of lobbying system works. Right. You pay the money. You get the favors. The, you know, the secret favors or whatever. But I think ultimately it's in the public's interest like it's a different. I mean, not the not the the the crazy redactions in the in the Epstein thing one in the

public's interest because I still think it's an insane thing that. One ladies gone down for this huge sex trafficking operation and not a single dude who is sex traffic to it's all that sort of a crazy like how how hasn't that happened. But protecting people. I mean, that that. I think the number of people that have been affected by FTX and who deserve to know like

who's who's funding this thing right like I don't know how it's how it's made. I don't know how it's hidden like it's he's basically hidden from the public. I think it's crazy. There's obviously weird stuff that's that's come out since like he he visited the the White House and to get to advise on COVID 19 like weirdly September or something they were like, oh yeah, so

it was visited about COVID. And even though he's obviously not a doctor. But the the the the the the funniness that's happening with the the funds from Alameda Alameda being sort of switched around as well. Just, you know, people liquidating and not really knowing what they're doing. There was one that said that they sent 60 cents worth of dye and two cents worth of color token,

which obviously only theorem. Two cents would have been, you know, far less of token. It's far less than the fee to send it to the multi-seag but they still have 1.5 million of funds that have yet to be like move. So it seems like a bit of a, you know, a headless chicken running around or a group of headless chickens running around trying to sort the

the mess out, although they did have a big win, which was announcing that they've recovered 5 billion worth of assets. So that's some kind of, you know, silver lining. I suppose, but they're really Alameda in general and FTX. They're liquidating. They're all checking under the sofa cushions trying to find that little bit of spare change here and there. But going back, yeah, ultimately, they people, the

people should know the people should know it's it's definitely in the public in the public interest about who is is is is fronting the money to defend a guy who is defrauded thousands of thousands of people. It's like, of course, those in the public interest. Well, and who's left to be this guy's friend. Certainly we understand his parents putting their house up his aunt, maybe some

family friends, but who has the big, heavy pockets who didn't get destroyed in this. Everyone who put their money in got destroyed. All the investors, all the people who did advertising for them, all the big names. They all had money in this. They all got taken down. There's one of them out there. I don't know who he is, but he's still a fan of Sam. Maybe

it's Mr. Wonderful. Maybe he has all the money and he just funded the the bail and again, he's a public figure. There's no reason to withhold this information. I disagree with the court very much. I think that they should expose the information. And if there is negative damages, you should accept them. You're bailing out a negative person. Like this is a person like Dan said who

scammed lots of people, all the insurance funds, all the pension funds, all the retirement funds. He shouldn't really be out on sale. There is still innocent, still proven guilty. And you know, even though there's a very, very minimal tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny chance that that might be right. That is still there. And so the court system is there for a reason. And the bail system's there

for a reason too. And he has, he has pleaded not guilty and said he was just bad at business. So, you know, but nevertheless, so that's why I like to put the allegedly in there because we don't want to be liable for just saying this that he has de-forded because it's still it's still, you know, hasn't been sealed and delivered. But there is, there is definitely

a lot of questions about this bail. What I don't understand is even for a billionaire, 250 million isn't chunk change. If you lose that because he's found guilty. And that that's the, I'm not sure about American correctly. You would, you would mainly lose it if he ran. This is mainly about him not running. And there, I do agree with you. Joshy is innocent until proven guilty.

But it just seems that there'd be a little bit of respite for the people who have lost their money that the person who's running the company would be spending the holidays in jail rather than as we know from a recent interview playing video games at home. Like he doesn't it's not punishment. It's jail. It's bad. It's a bad place certainly. But if he was in the

bad place, people would be saying, well, the system's working. You know, it's grinding in the right direction. But this mystery billionaire or whoever has come along and has taken that small bit of respite away from these people. Well, I have to also say here, I don't, like you said, there's not many friends left. And let's, let's twist it around a little bit. Even the parents house

has been bought with customers funds. There's no way that Sam with these type could have earned as much as he did to sort of front this up. So he's using customer funds right now to bail himself out. He's just continuing the alleged scam. And, um, and so. Allegedly continuing the alleged scam. He's allegedly continuing the alleged scam. By actually using customer funds who bought the property.

And then I think it's not outside of the world of imagination to think that he's also using customer funds piped through multiple different corners to then put up the bail. So it's, it's very sketchy. It would be definitely should come out. The court should release that information. It is amazing when you decide to break the law or allegedly break the law. You can gain all this

power that you can then use to defend yourself against the law. Other people should have known this. People like the alleged dread pirate Roberts, who seemingly didn't put anything away for his legal defense, like Josh is saying, for all we know, and we have no information on this. This is speculation. Sam could have put money in this account and that account Bitcoin in this account, given

it to this person, given it to that person, whatever it is, it's very possible. The money bailing him out is customer funds. And like Josh saying, I was thinking about more, I was like, every laptop he has, every computer he has, every bag, every little piece of clothing and things that he has is essentially all stolen customer funds because of how horribly he ran his business.

Dan J. More on this. Yeah. And the sad thing is that, even without the element, the pilfering at one up pilfering, but the recovery of funds for Alameda and FTX, you know, they're using mixing services to try and obfuscate where the funds are going. And there's no doubt, I mean, I don't know for a minute. That when SBF, you know, he didn't have his own kind

of little insurance addresses where he was rinsing funds to maybe some sub companies. And he's, you know, he's got, although he, you know, he kept saying, oh, you've got 100k when you repeat something 20 times, you're like one of those juping delight and you're smiling about you're like one of the, the juping live, if you're into murder mystery porn, you know, those kind of documentaries where

they're like, you know, they talk about the killer sort of doing. And the first thing I've done is I've been doing interviews on TV, whilst the dead body, like knowing where the dead body isn't being like, oh, I'm really sad, but we need to find the people who did this blah blah blah. You know, the duping delight things, the repetition of certain things is because they're

lying about it. And I just don't believe that he hasn't got an absolute shed ton of cash in all these different addresses, which has been kind of slowly pilfered out throughout the, throughout the years of FTX that, and that's not the reason that the money that's being used to prop up the case. And the reason why they want the identities remaining hidden because the more people

look into it, the more they might be able to trace the money back to SBF his himself. Well, and another great part about that, a legend, possible lie, is he could be telling the truth where it's I only have 100k in my bank account, but in my Bitcoin address that's hidden, I have a billion dollars and I have Litecoin and I have doors and I have

whatever else. He could be telling the truth, but not actually telling the truth and answering the full question. Let's move on to the exit question, Josh Shagalla, at the end of the day, what will happen? Will we ever find out who financed FTX's bail, SBF's bail? I think there's too many powerful interests to play out and we'll find out. Dan Eve, will we ever find out

who financed the bail? I'm confident that there's going to be enough enough people who want to lead that information that we will find out and enough internet sleuths to somehow trace those funds. I agree with Dan. I think eventually will come out. It's not what they want to happen, but it does seem to be what eventually happens. Maybe it'll be an old friend of the family

who just happened to have the money in an account or Mr. Wonderful is still my pick. Kevin O'Leary, moving on to issue three. issue three, Mark Cuban prediction or issue four, I think Mark Cuban predicts this will be the next possible implosion in crypto. Here's how to avoid it. Yes, Mark Cuban used to be into ICOs and altcoins and all kinds of fun stuff and said

that Bitcoin wasn't serious. Now he's back. He's into Bitcoin again and he's here to fix it. He says the problem with Bitcoin is wash trading on the central exchanges as everyone knows. A wash trade is when a trader buys and sells the same financial assets multiple times in order to generate fake volume and make it as peer as if there's a high demand for the asset.

This artificially inflated demand can mislead other traders into investing real money into the asset. Dan Eve, Mark Cuban's worried about this for Bitcoin, but it sounds more like a problem for altcoins, ICOs and maybe even NFTs. Dan, what do you think about Mark Cuban and wash trade still have been on then. There's still wash trading stories are quite they are out there. They just washed away

as it were drained out by all the stories of FTX and all the drama and the polycules and all these other crazy stories of companies collapsing. It's in an exchange's best interest to prove that they don't wash trade. Often you find these stories somehow wash trading at one exchange leads back to research done by another exchange. They've got vested interest in dobbling each other in and

grasping on each other. The thing is we've like going back to what Josh was saying earlier about the hate on it, but the smart contract infrastructure that allows a much more transparent order book where on a traditional exchange, from my experience and I was looking into shit coins back in the day, there were coins that were the daily volume was 100 times the actual entire order

book on the exchange of both buys and sells. It's clearly wash traded. You couldn't see these trades happening live and you could probably still go to an exchange right now and see some of these trades just happening without a matching order on there. Magic out of the blue. Ultimately, both not just exchanges, but the actual shit coins themselves that are linked listed on these exchanges have

a reason to want to wash trade and show volume because the volume shows the demand for the coin. They pay market makers to market makers who literally just buy and sell from each other. Sometimes extraordinarily obviously using, I don't know, this is a same amount traded every five minutes so that you have a complete flatline of volume rather than an actual realistic chart of volume because

they've been faking their own volume. Whereas index is it's a lot more obvious and they, they're on an on a centralized exchange. The shit coin can negotiate and not pay not pay fees because they're on the their own trades. But on a dex you have to pay fees to the actual dex. So, wash trading becomes a lot of money. It's a lot more costly for people

on a dex. So, it's more obvious if you're doing so because it's easier to trace where the coins are buying the buying and selling of coins is coming from. So, I think more transparency is good ultimately. And we're going to get that not from centralized exchanges, but from from dex. Oh, we saw in the past with the Mt. Gox attacks. There was the Willie bought and

the other bought that were trading and they were supposedly market making, but it's so much easier to make the market when you don't have to pay any fees. And I do love the idea of Cuban. This late to Bitcoin and cryptocurrency coming in like the character out of Casa Blanca. He's just like, I am shocked. I am shocked. There's wash trading going on in this cryptocurrency

exchange. Josh, should go is should crypto should Cuban be so shocked? Is he going to fix it all? No. And this is, this is exactly right. So, I think it's sort of flash these legacy financial talking heads who are all of a sudden at all these crypto events as experts is a joke. And we've said it before on the show that it's kind of annoying for

people like us who have been in the space forever. And really have a very minutured and and and fine grain understanding of what happens and the personalities behind them. Yeah, wash trading is one of these things that is, you know, in one way, yes, it does show liquidity sort of can can pretend you're more liquid than you are. But actually, it's it's can be used to

drive up the price for coins as well. And and so if you are the if you're the exchange, you want to do it to basically show liquidity. But you might also want to do it to drive up a coin and then short it as it dumps back down and stuff like that. That is harder to do now because of arbitrage opportunities between exchanges. So you need

a vast amount of volume to have that happen. But, you know, one of the things that's really coming out of all of this is is really wash rugs. That's kind of what I'm calling as that is a lot of these old coins that they're wash trading. And then they're going to have to drive the price up and then they rug pull it. And that's really one

of the most awful parts of of the crypto space for for unsuspecting investors. And so again, exactly what Dan said, Dexas solve this because it's very, very expensive to wash trade on Dexas. Plus there's no real need for it because you can see the liquidity in the liquidity pools. We've gone away from order books and we've gone gone more to pools. So we can see exactly

what Dan said. And then we can see the future is actually how much liquidity is in pool. It has to be there. It's provable. If there's any weird shenanigans, it can be spotted pretty quickly. Yeah, the future is syphapont. The future is Dexas. They're talking about, and it's not just the media. It's also the people. I went to that web three conference, a couple of months

ago in Las Vegas. And Mr. Wonderful was one of the major announced speakers. And he was on this panel and that panel. And he made a speech here and he promoted his company here. And in between those speeches, he'd go down the hall. And people would all follow him like he had all the answers. And they're like, Oh, Mr. Wonderful from Shark Tank from TV is

finally here to tell us about crypto. And like a week later, the FTX story came out. He's totally wrecked. His reputation is ruined. It's all over. And I don't think he should have ever been there in the first place. Remember, he testified before Congress and said that FTX is a business competitor, CZ and Binance had allegedly wrecked their whole business. And he didn't seem knowledgeable on

that. He wasn't very knowledgeable when I listen to talk at the convention. His main things were the same old thing where he says regulation. You know what we really need is some regulation in this crypto here. Because then we're going to bring it to the big money for you guys. And it just doesn't seem to add up and it happens over and over and over again.

But sadly, if there had been a bit more regulation, he wouldn't have been in broad in the FTX thing. So maybe he saw it coming. But he just couldn't do anything to stop the freight train of corruption. I don't agree. It was everything that Sandbankman fraud allegedly did was already illegal. There was already regulations. If there's some criminal, they will get around. They just won't follow

the regulations. So I don't that you cannot regulate on regulate on regulate when something's already regulated. It's just someone that's going to break that laws already breaking the law. So I think it comes back down to as big coiners, as people that are in this to look at other solutions, think outside of the square. Because the square that we came from is regulation. Now with all

the regulations that banks have, you think they're still corrupt. Do you think they still lawn to money? Do you think that they still do dodgy deals? Of course they do. We all know they do. Do you think they need bank bailouts? Well, that was in the genesis. The place I'd really like to see some regulation is on the advertising. Because over and over again, they said

FTX is here and we have all these horrible prescription drug ads here. So I think that's the problem. Here in the US, they have to say all the side effects and all the ingredients, all this stuff. This FTX commercial comes on. All they have to do is one line at the end of where they're like FTX cryptocurrency company is based in the Bahamas. Instead they pretended

it was a US company. They were meeting with all the US regulators. I thought they were just another coin base. I never used them. I never did due diligence of that level. But without that extra piece of information, oh, they're incorporated in the Bahamas. You can trust them. They're just like all the other people that are you. It's totally fine. I think there should be more

regulation there. But we'll see how that goes. We're running out of time. We just wanted to give a remembrance today to how thinny early Bitcoin pioneer took the first transaction from Satoshi volunteered to help out the Bitcoin network sent early transactions wrote early posts about Bitcoin on the message boards had little thought experiments about how much the price could be. Obviously saw right away that having

it locked to 21 million units would be a huge boon to the price. A bit of a dreamer did some code on an early tron video game that Ben has did some code on Bitcoin wrote essays about cryptocurrency before we had cryptocurrency. Just really impressive guy. How thinny it's sad that he passed away early due to ALS his wife is doing a really neat run competition.

He was a runner. It's on Twitter. If you want to check out. There's more information about how finny there Josh anything you want to say about how finny on the 14th anniversary of the first Bitcoin transaction. No, I know a resting piece and I'm going to go do a run today for. Dan anything you'd like to say. Just legend. He put the first obviously apart from

the first transaction. You'll say is it 2004 implemented the first proof of work algorithms. The reasonable proof of work based on Adam Bax paper and put it into into action. So he was really providing the foundational layer of testing foundational layer of Bitcoin which is proof of work. So what legend. And also got to love him because he said when it wasn't worth anything at all

was like. I've done some back of the bag packet calculations and got to be about 10 million dollars of Bitcoin. So we're going to have a lot of money. So let's just hope it reaches 10 million dollars one day. An excellent early prediction and a great Bitcoin pioneer remembering how finny. And now prediction or a story of the week. Josh, a gola. Are you ready with

a prediction or a story of the week. Go ahead. Well, no, I'm not ready. But I think it's going to be a good week. I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens with DCG. The Vincolvier. Yeah. It's interesting that through all of this this this news, the price is going up. So that could be two things folks. It could be a manipulation of

someone trying to cover losses and drive prices up or it could be actually that there's no weekends left. That's my prediction, which isn't really a prediction. What a story these Winkov I if they made all the money with Facebook lost it made all the money with Bitcoin. Lost it again. What a what a story it'll be. And I'm sure they're fine. I'm sure personally they're fine.

But what an interesting story. What an amazing story. Dan Eve prediction or story of the week. Go ahead. Um, I reckon that that silver and the Winkov I will settle their little dispute over a mud wrestling match held at the SEC. Oh boy. And the twins could wrestle again. And it would be two on one. That's fair. It's fair because they're twins. Right. It's right. Maybe

maybe they're maybe like half of them is strapped together. So they can only use like one arm and one leg each. And it's as well. So it would be a very powerful headbutt. Of course, with the two of them. The striking force. But who knows? They're very fit. They were rowers in the Facebook movie. It's all we know about them is from the Facebook movie. Rowers

and the Rowers over it as well. Rowers, Rowers and more. Thanks again to everybody for joining us today. Be sure to give us a thumbs up down below and subscribe. If it's your first time here. Send us a comment. Say hello to the chat. And that's about it. Until next time. Bye.