The Best Of 2022: Part Two

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software ends in July 2023. And it's only valid through my link. Go to drimklmnt.com slash rich roll today. Today you can start doing the right thing right now. Our choice is impact the future. This culture is not one that supports healthy human growth. There is a tight connection between feeling anxious and not allowing love to come in. Determine is something that gives the playing different going

for influence is much much more valued than creativity, and that sucks. The rich roll podcast. Hey everybody. Happy holidays from myself and my team here in podcast landia. We've really enjoyed revisiting these conversations and putting together this special auditory yearbook for all of you. And part two does not disappoint. Compiling this anthology every year is a sacred process for me and I'm so proud of all

the amazing conversations we've hosted and the enormous growth of this podcast. But first let's acknowledge the awesome organizations that make this show possible. Okay, so this recap practice is just one way that I can honor the magic that we make here together. And it's kind of a reminder of the power we all have to do and be better. So with this in mind, enjoy part two

of our best of 2022 edition of the Rich Roll podcast. Starting from the end of the year. Starting with the Lord of all things overlooked and misunderstood. The great and just frustratingly multi-talented journalist, author, podcaster and runner. Mr. Malcolm Gladwell. When it comes to evaluating the greatness of elite performance. We overemphasize peak performance and under emphasize longevity. So I got in. I sometimes participate in the

Let's Run. Yes. Well, this came up in the kind of extended blog post interview that you did with David Epstein and let's run kind of erupted in outrage over your thesis here. They are so wrong. I'm so right. So I said that the Miler Nick Willis quote does not belong in the same conversation as Matt Centruiz. And there was realist is up here. Centruiz is a

step below. Even though that was a Matt Centruiz won the gold medal in the 1500 meters. How can you say that Nick Willis who now has never won a gold medal in any games is equal. And I would say, well, the answer is that Matt Centruiz had one great shining moment. That gold medal. And he was a relevant runner for a kind of three, four year

window and had won very, very fast 1500 meters. That he ran. Nick Willis was relevant for 15 years. He doesn't have a goal. But he had a sober and a bronze in two separate Olympics separated by a lot of years. He was a threat to win almost any race. He entered for over a decade. His top three times are all faster than Matt Centruiz's times. He's

broken four minutes for the mile in 20 consecutive years. And I think as a culture, we are somehow dismissive of long periods of elite performance and infatuated with brief windows of extraordinary elite performance. And I think that's wrong. Right. Well, of course, being, you know, as we're getting older, we have a longevity bias, right? David. He accuses you of being, you know, of course, you're going

to over index on this because we're getting old, right? 100% goes back to the beginning of our conversation when we were talking about kids sports, right? Like we over index on the highest performers. And we're not paying attention to how we kind of inject these experiences with joy to create lifelong pursuits. Exactly. So imagine, you're right. This is exact same conversation. Imagine that rich, I make

you the athletic head at one of these local high schools and you stand up in front of the entire school on your first day in the job. What is the speech you give? Right? Now I'm going to put words. I know you're going to write the speech for me. No way. I know where you could have say you're going to say, I am here to create

in you teenagers, a set of habits around physical exercise that will stay with you for the rest of your life, right? I'm going to use my job as a athletic director to teach you how to live a healthy, life by and you're talking about healthy in a sense of physical exercise, but all those things as well, because that leads you into psychological health, emotional health. That's

your goal. You are not going to say, I'm going to try and win as many California state titles over the next five years as I possibly can. Right? You're not going to give that. And the tragedy is that everybody else who gets that job says, I'm here to win as many California titles as I can over the next five years. Everyone should give the speech you

give. That is the speech that's not being given. And we are suffering. As a country, as a society, as a result, it look around you. One percent of the population in Middle Ages practicing healthy habits. Why is that? Because no one bothered to teach them at the moment when those habits need to be taught. Right? So my argument about Nick Willis, the idea of having a

standard of performance that spans 20 years, that matters. Why? Because Nick's going to be when he's 70, Nick's going to be healthy and running and competing. And that's what I want. I don't care whether he's winning at 70, but the idea that he could put together a portfolio of running that starts in his teens and ends in his 70s is something that makes me so proud

to be part of the same group of runners as he is. Well, the animating force behind longevity is joy. Right? Like you can't have a long standing career at a high bar unless you're enjoying what you're doing. Right? So we have seen outstanding excellent performances from people who reach the very peak. But then they burn out or they hate what they're doing and they walk away

from it never to, you know, participate in it again. So how do you ignite that level of joy and connection to that pursuit that keeps you going? So at your age, you're still interested in running and training and all of those things. And it brings joy and community into your life. And if there's a great performance, you know, every once in a while that comes out

of that. Great. If not, who cares? Yeah. And so I like that argument. It is, you know, it's very glad. Well, Ian, of course, it's orthogonal to like the way that we think about these things. But you can't be intellectually honest about this unless you recognize that that occasional outstanding performer is the kind of spark that inspires us all, right? Like you need the Michael Phelpses

and the LeBronz to set this bar that kind of gets us excited about maybe engaging in that sport to begin with. Yes. I'm not saying that I'm a poet. I'm opposed to, I mean, look at how much I talk about these fantastic track and field athletes. Obviously, these are important to you. They are. But I also recognize that that set of values applied to the body

of the sport are counterproductive. So what I'm arguing is, goes back to the coming days, we have a very beginning about cross country teams should have 20 people on them. And the 20th person should matter as much as the first. I'm not saying we run the world cross country championships that way. But I do think we run the middle school and the high school. Cross country

championships that way. In other words, it's time for us to understand that there are two very different models here. And that the models can be contradictory. And we need to find a way to kind of foster them both. And right now the elite model, the peak performance model is winning. And that is driving a lot of young people out of the sport and discouraging a lot

of people and frustrating our attempt to restore the health of our society. 2022 marked the second appearance of self-help superstar Mel Robbins. One of the most widely booked public speakers in the world with followers in the millions, Mel is a former lawyer, turned talk show host, mega best selling author. And now, damn her for moving in on my territory, podcast host with a knack for helping

people blow up limiting beliefs in mindsets. Here's Mel on some recent breakthroughs in her struggle with anxiety. The other thing I wanted to say because this is going to lead us right into the topic about mental health, about mindset, about happiness, and the profound issues I've been working on in my own life is I completely understand what you mean when you say it's really hard to

accept a compliment. It's hard to accept the gift. You'd rather have it be about somebody else. One of the biggest breakthroughs I've had in the last couple years rich is that I'm going to have a little bit of a hard time. I've been trying to express this epiphany about my inability to receive love. And the fact that I was uncomfortable for a long time, hearing a

compliment or having somebody say something nice or having a birthday party thrown for me or receiving a gift. And I've recently had this breakthrough because I have learned that there is a extremely tight connection between feeling anxious and not allow to have a bad moment, pain and pain, but that kept me growing my understands that my mind has Unreal adventures. I've never been through it, but

when I was a kid, I really can't stand on it, because I'm just, in fact, just growing love to come in. And so I have this visual rich, and I'm going to explain this to you, because I just had this emotional experience happen when you sort of were pushing away the love I was trying to shower you with, and so when you block love like imagine,

like, there is this closed door. If you have a hard time hearing it, you basically have put a solid door between you and the other person. And I've been working recently with visualizing the Gali doors in a kitchen that swing both ways, because you're very good at giving love. You're very good at giving support. You're an incredibly amazing friend, because you're always there when somebody needs

you, and you always open the door to listen, to advise, to share. And the same way too. And for a long time, when somebody would try to give it back to me, the door was closed. So let's talk a little bit about where that comes from. Like what is the genesis of that instinct for you, or what have you learned about that? What I've learned about

this, and I would strongly encourage you to bring Dr. Russell Kennedy onto your show. He wrote the book, AnxietyRX. He's a medical doctor who also got his degree in neuroscience, and he started experiencing anxiety when he was in medical school, and he has gone on to heal his anxiety. He treats people around the world with anxiety. Like he is a game changer on this content, and

the topic of anxiety. So his theory, and I now see this completely in my life, his theory is that all anxiety comes from childhood, and it comes from the experience of being separate in childhood. And so every single one of us has an experience. And you may not remember it because 80% of your brain is formed by the time you're five years old. But you have

an experience where you, as a kid, feel distinct and separate from your caregiver. And he talks a lot about this concept of a parental mismatch. So there are a lot of us that have parents who are wonderful people, or maybe they're not wonderful people, but you have parents who are wonderful people, but for you emotionally, just like the father, or the five love languages, there can

be a mismatch in terms of the love language you speak a need, and what your partner does, that your parent and the way that they provide emotional support is a mismatch. And so as a kid, when you don't get the reassurance you need, or when you don't feel loved or seen or heard or accepted, you feel separate from the parent that you're biologically hardwired and needing

to bond with, which also means you feel safe. And so as a little kid, at some point, an alarm would go off in your body whenever you felt separate from your parents. And it could be as innocuous as go hug your uncle and you're like this. I don't want to hug my uncle. Get in there. Or don't do that now. I'm busy or the snapping at

you. And you immediately feel that alarm because you feel separate. And so what happens is that this alarm that starts going off and going off and going off in moments where you feel separate. You're not feeling the love that you need. You're not feeling connected. You're not feeling reassured. It starts to go off all the time. Now as you get older and older and older. I

mean, we've all had the experience of walking in to see old friends at lunch. And for many of us, we feel that alarm go off. They've all arrived there. They're all talking. You feel that sense of separation. That's anxiety. That's what it is. It's in your body. And it is according to Dr. Kennedy, it is the little you. Basically waving their hand saying, I need a

little reassurance right now. That's all that it is. And for decades, I have approached what has been an experience of living with anxiety from the neck up. I mean, the 5th, 2nd rule is a neck up approach. And based on the last two years of intense therapy that I've been in and a lot of stuff that I've recently learned from Dr. Kennedy, I realize it is

fun to learn. And then, fundamentally, a neck down issue. That attacking anxiety and these moments where you feel separate or scared or you feel the alarm go off in your body. If you, instead of treating it like a signal that something's wrong, if you actually treat it as a signal, that you just need a little bit of love from yourself right now. Just put your hand

on your heart. You can like take a towel and kind of do this on your back, rub it back and forth. And you feel like you're hugging yourself. Take a deep breath. Tell yourself whatever you need to hear in that moment in order to reassure yourself that you're going to be okay or that whatever. You know, I get it. You feel a little nervous, but all

those people at that table love you. It's freaking bonkers. How powerful of a purchases. And it's also made me realize that, wow, I am so not used to giving myself that kind of love and reassurance. No wonder I'm uncomfortable. Letting other people give it to me. There really is no one quite like the singular Casey Neistat. In icon, in many different senses, Casey is the host

of the wildly popular YouTube channel with over 12 and a half million subscribers. He's an entrepreneur and angel investor, a husband, a dad, just an overall great dude, smart dude. And here we talk about creativity. We talk about filmmaking. And some of the ugly, broader truths of the creator economy that incentivize sensationalism. What is the state of the union when it comes to like the creator

economy or the influence? You know, like as sort of the grandfather of or somebody who, you know, hold some responsibility for birthing this new generation of creators. Like how do you see that? Because you have pretty keen observational skills about what's going on, what's going wrong and you know how to make it better. Sure, I don't know about the latter about how to make it better,

but I can tell you from afar, not even from afar. I think I pay pretty close attention. It feels like, and this is a bleak response, but it feels like influence is much, much more valued than creativity. And that sucks. And I hope that people take issue with me saying that. I hope that's just me being cynical. But, you know, TikTok, I think is the most

amazing horrifying both delivery mechanism and creation mechanism I've ever seen brilliant because I've never, ever experienced an interface that is just so easy to find new things. It's, you know, there's no sort of cognitive burden. There's no like spending 20 minutes, figuring out what Netflix you want to watch or scrolling through YouTube to see which thumbnails the most attractive. It's just. No decisions to be made.

If you're not interested, you just flip it and you're out of the next. And it's a, that's fucking incredible slash terrifying. And then from a creation perspective, it's fascinating that they've removed all those barriers. They give you special effects that you can do in camera. They give you the camera, which is your phone. They give you amazing soundtracks, which is that I watch this video and

I liked it. So I'm just going to use that audio. And it's like, they've overcome all of those creative barriers. But at the end of the day, I don't know that that has bolstered creativity. I think what it has done is it has made the top of the funnel so much wider than it's ever been. Like if the top of that funnel was super narrow when,

you know, you and I were really young. When we're in the 90s, when to be a filmmaker, men being an indie filmmaker and getting into a film. If I was fucking impossible to do. And then it got a little bit wider, a little bit wider. And then YouTube. And anybody could now share with the world. But you thought if you had a create and make and

all that shit, TikTok's gotten rid of everything. And now the top of the funnel is wider than it's ever been. But it still feels like the bottom of the funnel, like really amazing stuff that you watch. And it means something to you. Is this small as it's ever been? Everything is a femur. And on TikTok, it's not even about following people that intrigue you. It's just

about reacting to whatever the algorithm decides you might want to look at. Sure. So if, you know, in the course of a year, I'm making numbers up. If in the course of the year, you see a hundred things, you know, paintings or hear songs or watch movies or YouTube videos or see a picture or watch a TikTok that affect you. That you don't see. And then

you can stop thinking about, we're now seeing a million. But that number of how many affect you like that hasn't moved for me. I don't see more brilliant stuff. I just see more stuff. And what concerns me is that that's what's sort of being celebrated is like now it's purely about the metrics and not about how you achieve those metrics. And that sucks. I don't know

where that goes. I don't know where that goes from here. And I don't know what that means. Like I had a very, I think eloquence. And sort of monologue about how the egalitarianization of filmmaking is going to mean it finally is an art form that everybody has access to. And we're not going to get to see new perspectives and ideas shared in ways we'd never seen

before. Because you don't have to go to NYU Film School to make something. And I think that probably is still true. But we're watching it manifest. And it's not, I'm not seeing new brilliant shit. That's like, wow, I didn't see that coming. And that kind of sucks. It does make me want to go back and purely focus on the creative and see that if I can

use my platform, which is still big, to find success. Yeah. That will be very reassuring. But if I, you know, if I make stuff that I still feel like is good and I'm really proud of and nobody watches it. I don't know what that would be. I'd still be sad. You still have the satisfaction of the also be psyched about as long as I think it's

also be psyched about it. Yeah. But it would be telling of where we are right now. You know, is somebody. I'm not going to be more likely to try to follow in your footsteps or are they going to pivot to TikTok where it's just easier to audience capture and create these short little things. Yeah. Jump on trends. Are you going to be like the guys that

made everything everywhere all at once? You know, there is like some incredible filmmaking going on. Do you see Top Gun? Yeah, it's unbelievable. I haven't stopped. Like I'm trying to time it so I can sneak into theaters just to see that third act over and over and over. I'm being made and I'm really excited about that. Super successful stand-up comedian, writer, actor, producer, and host of

The Good For You podcast. Whitney Cummings made a heartwarming and hilarious appearance on Episode 718. Known for her stand-up, as well as for her sitcom Whitney, she remains underappreciated, I think, in her wisdom with issues relating to mental health. Which are earned through her own personal confrontation and working through a past marked with anxiety, as well as a codependency disorder. So here's an excerpt lifted from

that very conversation. So what was your breaking point with all of this? Like how did you get ushered into the rooms? I had a family member going to rehab. The wild thing, probably very similar to work addiction, is that codependent is incredibly rewarded. It is incredibly rewarded. You are so useful. I played sports really competitively. I was always the first person to get there. The last

person to leave. Like I was... Hello. Yeah, totally. Mostly because you guys organized this wrong. You know, we think we're right about everything. I had an alcoholic coach who was less reliable to make it to a morning's from practice. So I had the keys to the pool. And that is a form of trauma that most people wouldn't categorize under trauma. But it was like... It's proud.

I was like, yeah, I'm reliable. I will be there. I will make sure that everybody gets in. We're going to have morning's from practice. Which goes, oh, the authority figure isn't reliable. I'm on my own. You know, so as soon as... And that drives the control issues and the perfectionism. Because you have great data that you should have the keys. You know, that's the tricky part.

Is it something... So I was like, you're mothering your micromanaging. Well, you guys suck at this. Like there's also a tricky one because it's like, well, I am better at this than you are. Maybe not for the right reasons. And I am, you know, so then you get to a point where you just go, it's not about that, you know. And then when you're leading 200

people, there's no time to act like that. And it turns out when you think that you're helping someone or helping them save time, you're just patronizing them. And you're like telling them, I don't trust that you can do this. I'm going to do it myself. But the guys is, oh, you don't do it for you. Oh, I got it. No, I got it. No worries. You

go home. But you're really just saying, I don't like the way you do things. I'll just marty myself and do it and then start to hate you. And not even give you a chance, frankly. Right. You know, because we were proven wrong as a kid. It was very hard to trust other people to do it. I had a family member of mine went into rehab and

I was, you know, there 24, seven did the intervention, bring in the nutrient bars, bring in the, you know, athletic greens, you know, just there every single day. What do you need? Can I get you a sweatshirt? Do you need a new shoes? Do you need a comforter? I mean, I was just there all day every day while I was doing two television shows simultaneously. And

someone pulled me aside. My now therapist, who was the family therapist there, she specializes in neuroscience of addiction, childhood trauma, et cetera, et cetera. She started your sober. She's amazing. And she came up to me and she was just like, hey, so, you know, you're just killing this person faster. And I was like, you know, but, and of course, I had guilt about what happened to

both of us as kids, you know, what happened to her. And I just wanted to fix it with my love. And that's not how neurology works. That's not how. Younger than you. Older. Older. Interesting. You know, and so we both have sexual abuse in our past, which is a very, once you really get a handle on that, a lot of behavior starts to make sense. And

you start to go, oh, wait a second, all these things I do, I could actually kind of like reroute to be incredible tools to give me a giant advantage. Like I actually think I've a giant advantage because of all these things. Like let me just perceive it that way. You know, so for the longest time, I perceived my trauma as exactly what it was. The trauma

I didn't block out, which we can talk about later, or repressed, or completely disassociate from. But I perceived it as trauma and as a liability. And I have two broken legs and a broken brain. And then as soon as I changed my perception on it, I was like, oh my God, I was like gifted all these wild superpowers. I'm just using them wrong. You know, so

once I was able to do that, my life got pretty awesome. But it took, you know, 14 years in Alonon and still sponsoring and still super involved. So when that therapist was like, you're actually killing this person that you love more quickly because you're not giving them the dignity over their own experience. Yeah. Can't grow if you do everything. Well, and you're slowly killing yourself trying

to solve a problem. That's not your problem. So right. But when that lands like a ton of bricks, like, does that ring a bell in you and say, I need to go to Alonon or like, how did you like walk into your first meeting? Well, because then the first thing I did was I went to the person. I was like, am I killing you? Like, is

this bad? Should I not give you $100 every day for whatever you needed for groceries? Yeah, but you're asking the unreliable narrator. Like, of course, they're going to say keep doing that. Just the drug addict need cash in rehab. Yeah. So I did the, you know, cardinal mistake, which I went back to the person. And I was like, I just talked her and she thinks it's

fine. When I'm doing it, like, and she was like, okay, so. So. I'm like, I'm a hero and I get I don't think you understand. Okay. Like I'm handling this. I've got it. And. She said to me, she goes, you know, there's a program that, you know, it's worth going to. I'd love to take you some time. And, you know, I was like, why? Why would

I need a program? She's the one that won't stop drinking. Come from the same household, cut from the same cloth, had the birth order been reversed. It would have just, you know, and she goes, well, I just watched you go to the problem for the solution. You know, I was like, yeah, that's how you get a solution. Like, I was like, you sober people are just,

you don't get it. You know, I mean, I saved. I'm very busy person. I don't. So her whole thing was like, no, if you're going to get a solution, you're going to get a solution. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to go to this meeting. So I can figure out how to get her so. Like, I shop, lift, but I'm just going to the

gambling 12 star programs because basically a gambling addiction at the base of it. It's like, well, you're not. Okay. But yes, the lies we tell ourselves in the delusions. And look, I had a ton of proof that I was a super high function as a perfectionist, as a micromanager and as a martyr. I had gotten a lot of. Which makes it harder because the world is

smiling upon you. And you're being wildly rewarded for these unhealthy behavior patterns that you're blindly unaware at some point are really going to derail you at best. And you might actually kill you sometimes we're hurting people and ourselves. We don't even know it. What practices do we need to adopt now in order to live longer, live stronger, be more agile and more cognitively fit as we

age. Well, physician, engineer and Stanford medical school grad Peter, a T. M. D. answered these questions and more on episode 695, which was kind of a mini master class on longevity and human performance. So for your centenary and Olympics, like what are the events that you're working towards? Like what are the categories? You know, for me, I think my kids are the greatest source of joy

in my life. So, you know, my hope is that my kids have kids and that we're in proximity to them. And I just get to do the kind of stuff with them that I get to do with my kids right now. So again, it's silly, simple stuff. But again, I'm fortunate that, you know, I still have two boys that are young, five and eight. And so

I realized that I was going to be a great, and I realized to play with them is hard. Like they play on the floor. You know, we're building Lego, we're building tracks, we're pushing trucks, we're doing that stuff. And when I look at, for example, my dad, who's 85, he can't engage with kids like that. And a big part of it is, my dad's mentally as

sharp as attack, he can't get on the floor. So something as simple as can you get on the floor, spend 30 minutes without your back breaking and get up. Now that takes a lot of intra-adminal stability. You really have to be able to initiate intra-adminal pressure to maintain that position. And of course, getting up requires a whole bunch of coordinated activities. I mean, I have a

very lofty aspiration, which if I get there is great, which is I'm going to be able to get up without using my hands still, which I can do now, obviously. But even if I can just do it on one point of support, that would be fantastic. I love archery. It is such a big part of my life. And, you know, even though now I'm pulling a

75 pound bow, I think to be able to pull a 50 pound bow in my marginal decade would be fantastic. I love driving race cars. Now, Paul Newman drove a race car until probably a year or two before the end of his life. And so for me, that's something that, you know, I would love to be able to continue to do. And that requires not just

the strength and the coordination and the mental acuity to do it. You have to be able to tolerate insanely hot temperatures and get so hot inside of a race car that you have to kind of have the kind of cardiovascular fit. And just to tolerate that. But having clarity about what those things are allows you to then backcast to now and start to build the foundation

for that capability. Yeah, like we were talking about earlier. I mean, that's a big part of why I do what you do, which is I do some of my activity, like I rock four or five days a week, you know, carrying a weighted backpack, but I always do it at like five or six p.m. So in Austin, that's about the hottest time of day. So it's

a hundred degrees. Sometimes it's a hundred and five hundred six. And you got a 60 pound pack on your back and you go walk three miles in the hills, your ability to tolerate heat. You know, you go to somebody's barbeque at 11 o'clock when it's 90 and everybody's dying. You're like, there's nothing. Right. Well, beyond this kind of realm, when you think about longevity and when

we talk about longevity, we're really talking about health spam. Like what are the other buckets. And I guess a question that I have is, how does this kind of line up with, you know, the ideas of the blue zones and these other kind of principles that guide you know, how to think about setting ourselves up for longevity success? Well, as you said, you know, lifespan and

health Spanner, the two vectors of longevity. But I do think most people think more about the health span one. And the good news is they're not independent vectors, right? These are actually not orthogonal vectors there, even though we represent them orthogonally on a graph. If you take all of the steps to live a better life, they're just invariably going to also lead to a longer life.

Now there are exceptions to this rule. There are certain traits that one might make if you were really purely optimizing on one or the other, but the overlap is so powerful. So I usually tell people not to worry about it. You know, the words if they say, I don't care how long I live, I just want to live the best life possible. It's like, great, you're

going to live longer, by the way. So I think of them as I said in those three buckets, sort of a cognitive bucket, a physical structural bucket and an emotional bucket. And within that physical bucket, just to kind of round it out, you have everything we've just spoken about, which is the stability component. And that's the foundation. Everything has to be built upon the foundation. And

then there are, I sort of think of like three pillars that stand on the foundation strength, an aerobic base, which is effectively a proxy for mitochondrial efficiency and, you know, exceptional fuel partitioning. And then a peak aerobic slash anaerobic piece. So kind of think of your VO2 max, your zone two, and your strength. And again, I think people have a sort of intuitive sense of what

those look like. But, you know, the devil is in the details. And, you know, how much time should you be spending on one versus the other. And it's really kind of a function of how much time is one willing to devote to this craft. Right. You know, I think we, for understandable reasons, probably tell people that they don't need to do that much exercise, because we're

talking to the average person who's doing none. And it's true that if you're doing no exercise, just getting you to do three hours a week has an unbelievable impact on your life, probably more than anything else you could tell that person to do. But I would hate for the message to end there, because I think if you could do 10 hours a week, and it's really

well structured, disguise the limit for what you could achieve. Okay. Gemma Newman MD, aka the plant power doctor, is a family medicine specialist in the UK, where she provides evidence-based nutrition and lifestyle advice to her patients. In this, her second appearance on the show, Gemma and I discussed optimizing hormone health, food diet, and lifestyle. People who have been long-time listeners or viewers of this show know

that I've had all manner of whole food plant-based advocates on the program, medical professionals, including two recent appearances by our mutual friends Simon Hill. And over the last nine years, I feel like I'm going to be able to do that. I feel like I've covered most of the issues regarding this lifestyle and the role of nutrition and health generally. But one area that I admit to

not having covered with any particular focus or intensity is women's health specifically, how this differs from general health advice and the role of food and hormones. So how do we find our way into this topic? I mean, maybe start with some thoughts about when you say women's health, like what does that mean? How is that different from just human health in general? And we can get

more focus from there. Yeah, so I did do extra qualifications in obstetrics and gynecology, OBGYN, you'd call that here. And family planning, as part of sort of my work as a doctor. So for a while, I worked in family planning as well. And I think it's not that women's health is over and above different in terms of nutrition to men's health, but that there are various

considerations that we would have physically that men don't have. Now, obviously, the most important thing is that women's health is not necessarily a problem. Common thing would be the fact that we have periods and we are kind of bound by that sort of natural cycle from the age of puberty to the age of menopause. Menopause itself is a huge life transition, which doesn't occur in the

same way with men. I think because primarily because there's less of a fluctuation and a sort of steep decline in hormones, in a relevant to men's health. It's more of a gradual decline as opposed to a precipitous one. Exactly. It's much more gradual. And I think that helps to ameliorate symptoms, whereas for women, going through perimenopause, up to menopause, then you can actually have wild fluctuations

of estrogen. It can go way up. It can go way down. And that's really what, well, one of the main things that's sort of responsible for a lot of the symptoms that women will get around the perimenopause, which we can I suppose define. But, you know, hormones affect men too, obviously. They affect everybody. There's actually over 50 different hormones. And they have to work together in

synergy in order for us to perform our best. And it affects every aspect of our lives, not just puberty, menopause, period, fertility, but everything, mood, energy, our skin. It affects sperm counts, all sorts of things. So it's actually integral to all humans. But I'd say for women, there are a lot more considerations, especially around the fact that we carry children and that we have periods and

that we have to go through menopause, which are very distinct life phases that do require extra thought and attention, I think. And so what is the role that nutrition can play in this? And also lifestyle habits? So if we talk first about periods, perhaps, because that's probably one of the main things that women will focus on from around the age of 11 or 12, the quality

of your periods can change based on the nutrition that you have. So periods are starting earlier, which I think is an interesting thing. I don't think that that's the only way to do that. That's just because of extra nutrition. I think there are also other factors at play, regardless of environmental pollutants and things like that. I think there's a lot of reasons why girls are starting

their periods earlier. And that's really significant, because essentially that means that our growth is kind of done. We don't tend to get much taller after we start our periods. And I think if you go through puberty and start your periods too early, it can put you at increased risk of actually things like heart disease, younger age. I never heard that. Yeah, which is a really interesting

thing. And I think there's just a lot of extra hormone exposures in our environment that we haven't been able to consider before. So. Meaning like environmental toxins, toxins in skin care products, etc. in our foods that are disregulating our natural hormonal cycles. Yeah, exactly. And things that mimic estrogens in our body, plastics, for example, phyllates, BPA, they have hormone mimicking effects, which is I think do

affect things like fertility and men's sperm counts, but also potentially also affect when young girls and women start their periods. So yeah, there's a lot to consider now that we haven't really considered in the past, because they didn't exist. But I think in terms of practical things that people can do, increased fiber is so important. Main reason being that if you're constipated, you're actually potentially recycling

unwanted hormones through the body. You would otherwise got rid of your actually reabsorbing. So trying to make sure that young girls and well, children and everybody in general doesn't get constipated is quite a good way of reducing our excess hormone exposure. I think it's important to mention that, you know, our fat cells in our body are also hormoneally active. They can produce estrogen. So if we

have more of those, then we also have more exposures to estrogen as a result of that, which can affect men as well as women. But I think that that's a really important thing that again, is not necessarily talked about much, the fact that our fat is also hormoneally active too. And yeah, so I think fiber is a really important thing. It reduces our hormone exposures. It

helps us to produce short-chain fatty acids, which is also a great for helping our hormone regulation, feeding our gut microbiome, which is important as well for hormone regulation, which is also important for our immune system, which affects our hormone regulation. So all these things are linked. Wait, you're saying it's all related. I have. The root of countless problems in our society lies in a sleeping giant,

unhealed trauma. Author and addiction specialist, Dr. Gabor Amate, returned for his second appearance on the show and gave us a powerful primer on the way modern life is driving us apart from ourselves and others and fueling mental and physical disease along the way. All of our afflictions, whether it's addiction, chronic physical illness, what we call mental illness, these functions, they all have a template of childhood

wounding. And they're not separate biological events happening in discrete individuals, but they are representative of a process inside each of us that manifests a relationship to our environment. Most importantly, our early rearing environment, but also the culture that we live in. So to give it one example, this is an obvious example, you look at the number of kids diagnosed with, say ADHD, the numbers are going

tells us that it's not just about individual biology, it's about life in a culture. Yeah. And on that idea of culture, you use this Petri dish example to illustrate that point, which I thought was really powerful, because I'd never really thought of it in that way. Can you explain that? Sure. So when we are studying microorganisms in a laboratory, we grow them in a broth. We

give them a broth to nourish them. You call that a culture, a culture medium. And if the organisms in this culture, medium, this culture, broth, we're dying off in great numbers or not thriving or ill, we would call that a toxic culture. I'm saying that when in a society like ours, more and more people are getting sick, more addicted, more mentally ill, more people are cutting

themselves, more people are dying of overdoses. That's also representative of toxic culture. And I'm saying that that's what we live in, hence the subtitle of the book, trauma illness in healing in a toxic culture. This culture is not one that supports healthy human growth. And when you say toxic culture, we should probably define that because it's a little bit different than what people might suspect. They're

thinking of environmental pollutants and the like. And that's certainly a contributor to a lot of this, but you're really talking about what's going on societally and culture. Yes. So that is all true, that it has to do with the physical stuff. There was an article reported just the other day that half of Americans were exposed to unhealthy levels of lead when they were kids. You know,

that's toxic. But you're right. That's not the toxic that I'm talking about. I'm talking about the nature of the culture itself, the very values of the culture, the way we're being up children, the expectations we put on human beings. They're toxic. People's healthy development. It seems so obvious. And in reading the book, it's like, of course, this is an issue. And yet it's so highly unaddressed

or ignored. And in reading the book, I couldn't help but drawn analogy to what you've all know. Herari is doing in terms of how we think about history, like telescoping out and looking at everything from 10,000 feet, which is not something we do when we think about and talk about health. We narrow down. To the cellular level, to the micro level and the scientific method dictates

that we control for variables and look at things in isolation. And of course, we've made tremendous progress as a society by dint of, you know, the technological advances that we can make by utilizing the scientific method. But it's a method that's myopic to the deep inner connectedness of everything. It doesn't allow us to look at things as holistic systems and the interplay that we can see.

And that is leading to so many of these problems. Like we can't address these diseases and these conditions on their own without looking at what's contributing to them by virtue of external forces. Well, you know, yes, I agree with your formulation, but that would also argue that there's all kinds of science that shows the interconnections of things. So that to talk about human beings in that

context and that health represents life in a context. Rather than just a biological event, that science. And we have literally tens of thousands of scientific studies to indicate how emotional and environments affect people's biology or immune system and our hormonal apparatus and our nervous systems and our guts and our hearts and so on and our social conditions, our inequality, how stress, how genderism or racism actually

has physiological impacts. They go underneath the skin, the effect or biology. This is not speculation. My knock on the medical profession is we keep talking about evidence based practice. But we don't look at a lot of the evidence that's already been published, including in major medical journal. So I'm not talking about insight and ideology or spirituality on the one hand and science on the other. I'm

talking about science. That is actually shown the interconnections. But there's such a wide gap between, that understanding and the practice of medicine or how we treat people. Oh, yeah. There's a huge, what we can call the science and practice gap. Right. So the problem is not with the science. The problem is that we don't put the science into practice. Next up, I want to give a

spotlight to the queen of all things. God help Dr. Robin shut can't. A deep dive into antiviral aspects of God health. This exchange is appointment listening for anyone trying to better understand the intricate connection between our microbiome and our immune system. And what we can all do better to optimize this relationship. One of the things with the book, I purposefully did not put COVID in the

title. The book is called the Antiviral God Tackling Pathogens from the Insight Out. And while COVID is definitely on the radar, there's a lot in the book as, you know, you've read. It about other viruses, about polio, about influenza, et cetera. And when it comes to long COVID or post acute security COVID or long haul or all the different names we have for it. One of

the things we know a lot about is post viral syndromes. This is not the first post viral syndrome. It won't be the last. I think the problem rich is that we weren't expecting it because we were thinking this is kind of like a bad flu virus and post viral syndromes from flu are not as common. But think about AIDS. AIDS is a chronic form. HIV. HIV,

the human immunodeficiency virus causes AIDS and it causes us prolonged disease. Now we have pretty good anti-retrovirals for that. But it's still a chronic condition. You think about hepatitis C can cause cirrhosis of the liver and liver cancer in many patients. You think about Epstein-Barr virus. Causes mono. It's been linked to chronic fatigue syndrome and is been linked to MS now. Multiple sclerosis. And it's linked

to certain forms of lymphoma. So we have lots of precedent. In my world in gastroenterology we see something called post infectious irritable bowel syndrome. Post infectious IBS, which is people who have had a clear infectious episode and then lo and behold, maybe they have acute symptoms diuret or something, nausea vomiting. And those acute symptoms are solved. But then lo and behold, they have irritable bowel syndrome

and the GI tract is sort of never the same. So we have a lot of experience. If you think about some of the sexually transmitted diseases like herpes, and human papilloma virus, so HSVH, PV, etc. We know there are acute and chronic forms of those. And we also know similarly, who is at risk for those chronic forms. And there are some outliers to that. But we

know for example, in woman with sexually transmitted diseases, that the population of healthy lactobacillus specter in the vagina that produce acid to repel these viruses, that having lower levels can make you more susceptible to the acute symptoms. So the acute process of after exposure becoming infected and also to the chronic aspects of that. So post viral syndrome are not new, but because this is a relatively

new virus, we're getting familiar with what the post viral landscape looks like with long COVID. And they're now more than 200 different symptoms that are associated. And of course, you know, a lot of this is reporting. Everything sort of gets put in. But we know what some of the more common symptoms are. Fatigue, respiratory symptoms. Brain fog, etc. And if we look at that, what we

see are clear microbial differences in a lot of these patients. And a lot of this we know from the CFS, ME literature with chronic fatigue syndrome, that researchers at Cornell were able to look at the microbiome and identify people who had ME, CFS based on what was going on microbially. And we've seen a lot of those microbial differences. We don't have a clue. They're cut microbial

signature yet. But we have some hints. And there was a study that was published in one of our GI journals. They followed 106 patients with acute COVID. They found a very high rate of chronic symptoms about 76%. And in that 76% they found significant microbial abnormalities in the majority of people who went on to have chronic symptoms versus a minority who recovered very distinct microbial patterns.

So it's difficult to sort out how much of that is because of virus itself can induce dysbiosis. This wasn't something we talked about. But the binding of SARS-CoV-2 to those ACE-2 receptors can induce microbial changes, dysbiotic microbial changes. And then of course dysbiosis itself, as we've been talking about, is a risk factor for having worse outcomes. So they're both sides to that. We know that autoimmunity

is an issue. We see autoimmune markers. Many of those patients never had an actual autoimmune disease before and they still don't have an autoimmune disease. But it's almost like a precursor. And we don't know what's going to happen with some of those patients with a positive A&A's and different non-specific markers of inflammation. Are they going to progress to an autoimmune disease? Or is that stage where

they are where they have an autoimmune marker, but not an actual autoimmune disease, a specific disease onto itself? We see EBV plays a role also. Yeah. That was the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To me, that there's a sense that it might be a reactivation of a par virus. Of EBV. Of EBV. And I didn't realize that like a huge percentage of people are harboring some amount

of that virus. The majority of the population and EBV is fascinating the history because if we look at, you know, 100 years ago, they called it idiopathic adonitis. I mean, idiopathic meaning unknown adonitis means the glands are inflamed. And then it wasn't that. And then the clinical research is that Hopkins, a couple decades later, linked this to mono. And then just recently this year, some groundbreaking

research linking the EBV to MS. And the lymphoma connection has been made a few decades ago. So it's still evolving. And the role that EBV and reactivation of EBV may play in on COVID is still, you know, there's still a big question mark there. But again, we have precedent because we have lots of research in the MS world. And the lymphoma world, et cetera. So for

people out there who are struggling, you know, I want them to know that even though the virus is novel, the science is not novel. We have a lot of data. We have a lot of researcher is a lot. We do know, you know, there are lots of people working on it. This next clip features New York Times reporter, Pulitzer Prize finalist and author of the chaos

machine. What I think is one of the most important books of 2022, Mr. Max Fisher. Max joined me on the podcast to discuss the insidious ways that social media platforms shatter our attention, FOMET division and fracture our world. And what we can all do about that. In your reporting on this and all the work that you've done and the people that you've spoken to, what is

the thing that most shocked you or surprised you about the extent of this problem? I think it was honestly learning that using the platforms, it was what we talked about, using the platforms influences your own sense of right and wrong even when you're not on them. And it was this sense that it's not just the pizza gate guy. It's not just the Q and on people

that it's all of us who are being distorted by it. And when I started to learn about that, I really scaled back my social media usage. I turned off a lot of the features. And I really, felt a change. I felt a change in my mood. I felt a change in how I think about politics and the news that happens. I don't read it through social

media. If I just read it through, you know, regular old websites or podcasts. And I think that maybe that just shook me the most because it implicated me, you know, probably objectively, I should be most upset about the fact that Facebook played a major role in a genocide that expelled the huge population of Myanmar from the country. But it's hard not to come out of this

thinking that I was affected to without realizing it. And that if that is true for billions of people, including like 80% of Americans, then the effect must be pretty profound. Yeah. This mass unprecedented experiment that is being performed on all of us in real time, right without precedent. I mean, it almost it's. I'm going to sound like that guy from Dr. Strange live. It's almost this

like pulp B sci-fi movie where they're putting drugs in the water and nobody realizes it. And we're all taking it without realizing it. I mean, that's more true than not, you know, right. So when we try to understand what the possible solution to this is, it very quickly becomes incredibly complex and tricky. And it seems to my mind that this battle is being fought on several

fronts. On the one hand, we have this argument about free speech, right? Free speech being a core fundamental premise of all of these platforms that you track all the way back to the inception. And of Silicon Valley and the sensibility of these founders and these engineers. So we have the free speech piece. We have this piece about how everything can be solved through engineering, right, which

brings up the algorithm. We just need a better algorithm, right, to solve this. And then the third piece to my mind is the reluctance of the people who are running these companies to at least publicly acknowledge the problem or the extent of the problem. And to get into action. In terms of solving it, right? It's really tough when you think about the corporate incentives, because at

some point, it's like asking cigarette companies. They're antithetical to each other. Yeah. Right. Right. And it's just the way that our system and our economy works is you're asking these giant companies, or we're asking these giant companies to disavow the thing that makes the money to say that not only your cigarette's addictive, but you shouldn't smoke them. Or, you know, not only is pumping oil bad

for the environment, but in fact, we should probably, you know, radically downgrade the amount of energy that we use. This is a question of, I think it's more helpful to think about where you want to end up, and then try to figure out how you get there than the other way around. When you start with how do we get there, it's easy to say what just

tweaked the algorithm. That was the solution after the 2016 election is they said, well, we'll get better engineers to come in and have even more sophisticated algorithms, which of course just made the problem fundamentally worse. When I would ask people who study the algorithm, including a lot of people who are still in Silicon Valley and are true believers, what's the place that we should try to

aim for to end up? It would always be some version of turn it off, not turn off the entire thing, because social media does provide a lot of good that we don't want to give up, but turn off the engagement, maximizing features, turn off algorithms, turn off the even Jack Dorsey, the former head of Twitter, he for a while was saying maybe having a little light

counter at the bottom of a tweet is incredibly destructive to our society and politics. We should turn that off. He was kind of late to come around, but in the final stages of his tenure and the twilight of his reign, he had some real epiphanies that ultimately were not made real. There was a period where he was pushing against the financial incentives of his own company

and all the other companies were growing by leaps and bounds in his wasn't because he was kind of constraining its growth because he thought that it wasn't healthy. There is a version of social media that like any platform of any kind can have some negative effects to it, but the pre 2008, 2006 pre-news feed pre-likes social media, it didn't have a lot of these harms. And

it was something that contained a lot of the good that we hope for and like and appreciate from social media without these distorting effects and without this kind of addictiveness and the changes to our behavior because they didn't have engagement maximizing features. While I love all my guests, I have to admit that I've never met anyone quite like Sylvia Earle. A marine botanist, oceanographer, and one

of the very first National Geographic explorers in residents, also somebody who was named first hero for the planet by Time magazine, Sylvia is a straight up living legend. Now 87, it was an honor to talk to her about the majesty of our critical blue waters and the importance of preserving that. State the case for why ocean health is so critical. I mean, you mentioned carbon capture

and how vital the oceans are in terms of that, but why should we care? Like why is this so crucial that we do everything in our capacity to protect and preserve our ocean system? When I was asked that question back in the 70s by a young woman reporting for an Australian publication, it just flashed with me that, okay, so you don't care about the ocean because

you don't eat fish, you don't swim, people don't drink saltwater. If the ocean dried up tomorrow, why should you care? Okay, you got it. Dry up the ocean. No ocean. What have you got? Only about 3% of earth's water is not ocean. And that 3% is constantly being recharged by the ocean as water evaporates up into the clouds and falls back on the land and the

sea. It's the biggest storehouse of water. Start with the water. All life needs water ourselves very much included. The shorthand version of that is no blue, no green, no ocean, no us. So we're not going to dry up the ocean tomorrow, but let's say you just modify the ocean, warm the ocean, make it a generator. It's a generator of more powerful storms and more frequent storms.

Make it a generator of sea level rise because warm water takes more space than cold water. And that's part of what we're seeing right now. You see expansion of the ocean. Change the temperature to the ocean, either make it colder or warmer. And you've altered one of the most basic things that we take for granted. The range of temperature that is suitable for human existence. Just

water, it doesn't work either. It's the living ocean that makes earth habitable. It's taken all preceding history to develop this closely interacting system of systems in the ocean, living systems, mostly built of collaborations of partnerships with this. It's like a giant symphony and every piece has a place. And what we have done in a remarkably short period of time is to derail up end, cut swathes

through, disrupt this amazing system that, they say it's taken 4.5 billion years actually to assemble. And literally about 4.5 decades to significantly rip apart. And we're doing it with our eyes open with a smile on our face. We have laws to reinforce it. Laws protecting shipping, laws protecting industrial fishing, laws actually giving subsidies to kill the ocean. Right. You have the subsidies are a huge problem.

Right. Because they provide the underpinning for all of these systems that are destroying. I mean, one of the more heartbreaking scenes in Mission Blue is when you travel out in the Coral Sea, pass the Great Barrier Reef. And you drop in on what was once just a, you know, an epic reef system and it's completely dead. And just seeing how you're so far out there in

the middle of nowhere. And yet, the middle of nowhere. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's so heartbreaking. And yet, you carry yourself with such conviction and a level of hopefulness, despite all of this evidence, you know, you were there many years ago, you've seen this evolution. And how do you hold on to that sense of hopefulness? Well, during 2020, when I had to kind of like most of

the rest of the world sit back and reflect on questions such as this, you know, what reason is there to hope in the face of so much that's so negative. Wars, poverty, you know, hunger, conflict. You know, it's you could go on and list. And I think that's the reason why I'm so happy. Certainly climate and the loss of the diversity of life, loom large in

my mind. But at that time, I was also in the midst of writing this big book for National Geographic. We have a right. Oh, sure. Global Odyssey. Right. And although I had thought a lot about the question, what reason is there for hope? I really had a chance to dive in literally. What we now know about the ocean takes time to sift through the latest explorations,

the latest experiments, the latest reflections, latest studies on where we are. And also to reflect on what we don't know, which is enormous. You know, the more we know, the more we know, we don't know. I've just been seeing that all my life. But we know enough right now to realize there are things that can be done. And positive things, every individual can take action that

together magnifies into a movement, into a change of policy, into a new way of thinking about food. There's evidence that we have done this in the past about smoking, about wearing a seatbelt, about, you know, overnight when we realize that our lives are threatened by a virus. It's not the first time, although for the first time we could quickly identify what it was, not so long

ago, the existence of viruses was not known. We didn't even know what bacteria were, not so long ago in human history. And now we have this ability based and armed with knowledge to turn around. And when we get it to change, it took us longer with seatbelts and smoking. We got it with COVID-19. We have to get it with climate change. And really, we have to

get it. And we realize that by protecting nature, recovery is possible. When it comes to personal transformation, there really is no one quite like Ken Rideau. A guy who has transcended a litany of obstacles, including opioid addiction, to become one of the world's pre-eminent master athletes. Crowned world's best marathoner over 50 by The New York Times, here's a look into the mindset Ken has leveraged to

create his improbable success. I heard your interviews with David Goggins. I mean, I've heard a lot of your interviews, but one of the things that he said that really resonated with me, that always comes back to top of my opinion is that like, this is what I do. This is just what I do. When I get up to run, it's funny because as you build some

of the mental toughness and callous, you're mined a little bit to the reality that like, this is every day. It's like, you know, like when you're going through recovery, it's like, how the fuck am I going to not drink for two weeks? Like, you don't have to. You only have to not drink for the next hour. And then we'll deal with the next hour. That's the

running is like, you just have to set a real goal. And if nothing else, and I think it's almost easier later in life, because I've made so many mistakes in my life. And we all have, but today you can start doing the right thing right now. Set a goal. It doesn't, I always want to be mindful of people's abilities and capabilities and say, you don't have

to run 10 miles a day. But if you've never run, maybe you're going to start walking one mile a day minimum and set realistic goals. Like, okay, I don't care. Like, how out of shape you are. That's not that ambitious. If you have something wrong with you, that's a different story. But if you're healthy, start with walking a mile. Maybe it's running a 5K if you're

capable of that or a 10K, but be dependable to yourself. It's shocking how much that can help you. When other areas of your life, when you're dependable to yourself, when you know, I know that if the shit hits the fan here, I know I can count on myself to do the right thing when the chips are down left to my own devices, when things are fluffy

and cool. And it's easy to make mistakes. But if the chips are down and there's like something incredibly important happening, like I know I can count on myself because. If nothing else, I've proven that to myself that you have to believe it yourself. So back to my point about David Goggins with, this is what we do. When I wake up, it never. And there's my mind

and I'm so far removed from having a debate with myself of if I'm going to run that I know it might be hard for some people to hear, but like, there's never an inkling of doubt of like, I'm not doing this. I'm tired. I'm going back to bed. I just think, is it rain? Oh, it's raining. Damn it. This is going to suck. I hate running

in the rain, but I'm doing it. And I mean, even when I had the shoulder surgery, it was like a blizzard outside. And I was like, dude, it's, you can't even see outside. It's like a white out. What are you doing? I'm like, I got to do this. But I think that with the mindset stuff is you have to prove to yourself. That you can do

it because I have, like you said, I have nothing special. I'm every man. I'm an average athlete at best. I played division three football and hockey. I was like, Jack of all trades master of none. I was just willing to do whatever I had to do to stick around and be on the team. If you they needed me to fight, I'll be like, okay, I'll fight.

But your advantage or your superpower is your mental game. Like I hear somebody who really understands the idea of non-negotiables. Like you're able to commit to something and follow through with action. So it's not about VO2 max or anything like that. I couldn't tell you any of those metrics. It's just about, like, do you ever wear a heart rate monitor? By the way, like, okay. Sometimes

my watch measures it. You know, put it on Strava and people will be like, dude, heart rate of, I don't know, 185. I'm like, oh, that was my heart rate. But the point being like, that's really like the engine behind all of this is like that mental discipline, right? And that's a muscle just like anything else. That's something you can train just like you can train

your running or your cycling or what have you. 100%. I wish that that was the one thing that people take away from this is that I think of myself as just a dopey guy who's made a shitload of mistakes, like anyone else. Same insecurity, same fear. The difference is I'm not letting that control me anymore. Fear is such a powerful emotion, whether it's telling your story

to someone or a big meeting and work or a speaking gig. The emotions are the same. If you can learn to deal with those emotions and harness that everyone feels them the same. But the people who are successful learn to harness that and use it as their own tool, whether it's get them more ready or get them to perform at a higher level. And you see

it all the time. You don't think that Tom Brady scared to death in the fourth quarter when they trail in in the Super Bowl. You know, the difference is he's feeling the nerves, but he's like, let's go. He's using his like, right. You have a strategy to channel that into something productive as opposed to letting it capsize you. And the boxing for me was my outlet

that I was scared every time I went every fight every sparring session, but I kept going because I don't want to be controlled by fear. And it served me a lot of ways in life, including dealing with addiction. Because when I was like, you know, when you're about to go through withdrawals and answering into this like uphill battle that is recovery. You're like, I don't want

to do it. Let me just put it off for a week. If you have these tools, you're equipped to deal with all these different challenges. And look, it doesn't make you immune to mistakes. You're going to make mistakes. But hopefully if you have these mental tools, and I think you can continue, like you said, increase the strength of that mental tool. It is mindset by setting

realistic goals for yourself and working towards them. Next up is World Record Setting Adventure Athlete, Arctic Explorer, and New York Times bestselling author Colin O'Brady, as well as his partner, Janabasaw. This power duo graced the podcast to share heroing stories from Everest and K2 to discuss the power of an all day, 12 hour walk. And share actionable insights on how to tackle limiting beliefs. I know

you've talked about a lot on the show, Rich. I think there's a big difference between belief and abundance and the belief in scarcity, right? Like just that belief. And I was actually listening to you and Skolnik chop it up on the 10 year anniversary pod of finding ultra. You'll have to say the line, but you said something like when you're living in your truth, the universe

conspires. When your heart is true, the universe will conspire to support you. I mean, I think, yeah, to kind of drill down to brass tax on that. What I hear in your story and I've experienced this myself is that on some level, you have to believe it's possible. And you don't have to completely buy into that. You can have rational skepticism like, wow, that's going to

be really hard. I don't know if I can do that. But what can I do right now? I don't have any money, but I can go do this. And I think the more little kind of steps you take in the direction of that thing that you dream about or aspire to have in your life, there is energy that kind of coalesces around that. And then the

next step will be reveal. I think a lot of people just sit around and they want to see how the path is going to unfold all the way to the end or the destination. And it doesn't work that way. Like with each step, you get a little bit more confidence. And you get a little bit more evidence and, you know, like pick Ironman, like Ironman's expensive.

Yeah. Yeah. So, well, I want to do an Ironman. I don't have any money and I don't know bike, but you know, I borrowed my friends bike and I rode for a while. And that's what I'm doing. And, you know, after doing that for three or four months, this other friend of mine had an extra bike. And he said, he'd sell it to me for like,

you know, 20% of what it's worth. And you just kind of make it work. And then the more that you do that, the more the universe kind of opens up to you. And things happen. And that sounds perhaps a bit too ephemeral or mystical and maybe even privileged. But I've seen it happen in my life. This is certainly the path that you guys have taken. Like

totally. Things occur when you just keep pushing forward incrementally. 100% and I think that it comes also back to like your buddy didn't sell you the bike on the first time you thought about having a bike. That might be like when you're thinking about how to get a bike for three months and that finally comes around, meaning like you didn't like give up on your dream

to have a bike after the first part. You got to earn the dream. Totally. I love that. I love that. And work ethic, right? And the more that kind of sweat equity you put into it, you know, the more opportunities you're creating for yourself. It doesn't it doesn't lay out linearly or on the timeline that you would prefer. Right. But it eventually the person you least

expect to open a door for you is the one who does. And I mean, Jenna helped me tell the story. But we were six, eight months into trying to raise money for the Explorers Grand Slam project and had raised very little a traffic on sponsor mine had who a guy, a high net worth guy named Brian Kelper, who would help me out for some other stuff.

So I'll help you once you show me you can have some proper sponsors like I'm not just going to write your checks or show me a Nike sponsorship show me like a real quote-unquote sponsorship. And then I can maybe, you know, help you guys out. So that was a big thing. Only if we could prove ourselves basically. Right. But it's like, here's a little shred of

hope. Like, okay. There's a crack here. Like now I have something to work with. But then six, eight months down the road, we still had raised basically zero dollars. And we finally buy, you know, a friend of a friend of a friend had introduced us to someone at Columbia Sports. We had introduced us up the chain at Columbia Sports where after five people said, no, we

actually get a meeting with Tim Boyle, who's the CEO of Columbia Sportswear, based in Portland. And they also own Mountain Hardware and Surreal and a bunch of the other like, you know, whatever, climbing brands. And we're like, oh my God, this is our big shot. Like, this is our big shot. We prepped for the meeting, Jenna and I were like, we like read his mom's book

about the starting of the company. We do all the things. We like, five, they're closed to go to the office and of course, we couldn't afford. And we walk in the car. And he sits down and he's looks at us the first thing. He's kind of like, who are you guys? And you realize, like, we've been prepping for this meeting. And this is like two minutes

in between something actually important that he's taking. And we're like, oh shoot. And we're like, we're thinking he's going to give us the time of day to like, do the poll presentation. And we're like, oh, we have this like website with like a video on it. Like whatever, we like, play it for him. And you can just see his eyes just kind of like, Clay, so

for an he's like, cool, cool. Like, hey, good luck with that. Like, good job, you guys. Good luck with that. And we're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, we're like, we love. Have to worry about it. I love scramble it up this $8,000 input buy with distilled green minion feet

plus let's do it again. What are we gonna do now? You haven't even heard his whole story. Give me five minutes to tell you what you need to know here. And I just truly from the heart like I and I am not one to just like raise my hand and speak up and like you know jump into the middle of something. And it just came out

so organically and so naturally I shared exactly what we were trying to do. Well how much money we were trying to raise and I think he just for the explorers grounds. We had never done anything before and we had nothing and Jenna what she's being humble Jenna is Jenna is really a really natural introvert and just I don't know you're not one to just like you

but in that moment to be like actually excuse me Mr. Boyle like he was like what like I just thought this girl 27 year old girl sitting in the corner she's like excuse me Mr. Boyle actually I think there's a little more it's like to this like you know high powered CEO and she kind of sits him back down this chair and just like goes in

is like there's more here so I think it's a combination of that belief in abundance which is to even get that meeting it was like no no no yes made a guy had a coffee shop and you're introduced to hear there both of us like doing that but also in the moment like you're in this moment and you're like okay I could just he's Infliction points

where you know you have to crush it yeah and the guy saying no he's literally saying no and Jenna's just like I was even like I think both of us really live by this quote a close mouth is never fed and it was like I hadn't even had the chance to ask for what we wanted before getting shut down I was like oh no this is

the moment where you have to speak up and you have to say at least if you got to know you get a know right right but it was a really beautiful exchange and ultimately led to our like first legitimate like real sponsorship right so what did you say specifically that turned the tide it's a good question I mean I wasn't recorded so I don't know exactly

you know specifically what I said but I really I was like Columbia wants this and needs this like I can see this for you guys as a brand this is critical to what you're trying to use as a campaign and they were doing a test and tough test and tough yeah and again this was years ago and it's just like everything that the project was sharing

out in the world was exactly the same talking points as this campaign and I think I just kind of you know gave a little bit of right from my standpoint she just locked in it was just like I'm not take like he was just like whoa she's not taking no for this or okay well it sounds to me like it was a it was like a

vibe shift from hey you know we need this for us to here's how we can fulfill your need which is to extend your brand awareness on the message and that's completely on point with what you're trying to do and not for nothing you're not really doing a very good job on it right now like we can help you exactly like I was like what we are

bringing you're not going to get anywhere else like Colin can bring this we can bring this as a team and like you want this not in like a you know crazy way but just in a very complete honest way and I think you saw that I think he finally saw the passion and was willing to take a risk on us and I mean that was a

huge turning point but it wasn't going to pay for the back of the balance of what we were doing it was just to be like oh you know a dominoe had fallen like whoa Columbia Springs Project that allowed us sort of the ability to kind of go out in the world but then we were still a lot of dollars short you know a raising money for

this first project and you know basically just kept knocking on doors and I think you know my mom said this to me for a long time I don't know if it's her quote I'm probably not but she says you know luck comes to those who are prepared and you know getting our first project off the ground with the two of us waking up every single day

with our mind flooded with doubt right like our mind flooded with all these doubts like oh this isn't going to work this isn't going to this but then getting up and doing it. If there was a singular theme to 2022 on this podcast it's that every single one of us is affected by trauma though some carry a heavier burden than others and one of the most

important episodes in the history of this podcast psychiatrist Dr. Paul Conti teaches us how to understand trauma how to heal it and ultimately how to prevent it. Here's an excerpt from our conversation back on episode 705. Give me a sense of how pervasive this epidemic of trauma is because I think a lot of people when you say the word trauma it conjures you know an image

of being sexually abused or being you know victimized by some very violent act when in fact there's a broader definition at play here. I just know that my kind of introduction to these ideas came at the hands of Gabar Matei. We had a podcast and he did what he does which is he flips it and it becomes like a session. We start talking about my upbringing

and I grew up you know my parents took care everything was pretty good. I have nothing that I can point to in my past that would ring a bell and say that was a traumatic experience but the more I've kind of excavated that the more I realize that you know I did suffer some my parents are good people and they're well intentioned but there were some

traumatic experiences there and it's really reframed how I think about trauma in terms of how it lies on a spectrum so you know talk a little bit about that sure so we're going back to the very first aspect of this conversation trauma is something that leaves the brain different going forward so it's not just anything negative that happens because people say what about post trauma resilience

well yes if we define trauma differently something that really hurts us inside isn't something we're built to be resilient to something that doesn't do that that strikes us as way oh that was negative we can respond to with resilience but what you're talking about and how we're framing this is there's a neuro biological anchoring to trauma in that it overwhelms us and then we are different

going forward right and nowhere is it written they're like oh that only happens if you're in a terrible accident or if a loved one dies or if someone assaults you right those brain changes can happen in other situations as well we know that to be true so for example chronic trauma so if we could break it down into there are acute traumas chronic traumas and Bicarious

traumas the acute of course more easy to understand but the chronic trauma of for example being framed as less than in the world whether it's a that's because of sexuality or socioeconomic status or immigration status whatever it may be that often is imposed upon people that where there's just a constant message that says you're less than right or of course there's a quality but then there's

a wink this is but not for you because you're this whatever the minority characteristic is that the majority is looking down upon and stigmatizing right and it's just so clear that if you sit with people who've been subject to that for a long time not all of them but a significant subset have the same kind of clinically evident brain changes as people who've had the acute

trauma now the world is not a safe place and you don't quite really believe anything positive and even if it seems like everything is positive it's still going to go against you right and then all this is internalized why because that chronic trauma can change the brain the same as acute trauma and sometimes it can even be things that are seen as positive right so the

idea of the quote unquote special child who's like why you're so good and you're so smart and like you're going to go so far like there's all these expectations right and then it becomes very hard to shoulder when they're disappointments or write their things so then a little bit of shame becomes a lot of shame and then the thought of like oh I've been less than

perfect I mess something up or whatever there may be can be intolerable to a person right and I think I was part of my problem having been like a firstborn child of a firstborn child and then having been pretty successful in school and the thought was like oh you're just going to do great things like everything's going to be great right but everything wasn't great and

I needed to realize look everything cannot be great and I can still go make a good life for myself right so I think it's part of why some of the things that happened to me made those changes because I was sort of set up to be intolerant of anything less than perfection in myself which came from a good loving place you know in the people who

nurtured me but nonetheless set me up to be very intolerant of anything that was less than how I thought it should be so yes the chronic traumas can come from lots of places and we know that this can happen through Vicarious trauma thank goodness we have empathy as human so we can feel for one another and it's part of why we want to help one another

right but empathy also means we can feel sometimes in very deep ways other people's trauma you know which is why in the last I don't know five to ten years or so I've found myself and I think a lot of clinicians have found themselves much more saying to a person like look my prescription to you is no more news or check the news so that you

learn what's new but why you know why is the person checking and rechecking and rechecking and rechecking and rechecking because there are all these messages that tell us like we are not safe and then the parent is reading over and over again the story of the parent who lost a child in a school shooting things that are immensely difficult to shoulder and they're out there and

we become fascinated because we want to think inside like look I could survive something like that right so we're fascinated with it and find it to be so abhorrent and unimaginable but drawn to it in a way that if we can have more of an understanding maybe there could be some sense of like right if all things happen to me I can survive them but inadvertently

what we often do is just bring more and more and more trauma and more and more and more and more lessons so to speak that say just can't keep yourself safe in this world. Perhaps a few words for the person that we've kind of walked to the edge of the cliff here you know I'm thinking of the person who hadn't really thought you deeply about these

issues and now is in a place of thinking maybe there's something I need to look at here how do I begin to do that perhaps some encouragement and maybe a few really basic tools to help that person wrap their arms around you know the fantastic journey to come. Yeah you know I would say you don't have to be afraid of what's inside of you and we

often get very afraid of what's inside of us especially after trauma when the trauma itself makes fear and can make shame. We become very afraid as if there's something in there that's not happening magical just off I can't see in my peripheral vision and if I like really look at that that's the all start crying and never stop or I'll stop functioning and it's just not

how it works. It's just not how we work that if we're careful about it you know what I'd say just go talk to everyone about it but we're thoughtful what's going on inside of me can I put words we could I talk to someone and running current to like the strength of what says no you can't do that right everyone will be ashamed no one will

look at you in the same way you won't be able to find a function right like you know as we talked about much early on it's in the surface of survival right but that's true an aspect of human evolution that's not applying now in the ways that we're talking about so if we honor and validate that that's in us but also recognize it's not actually true

that confronting the thing that makes shame or fear is going to make us fall apart and in fact quite the opposite I mean there's so much data and clinical experience telling us the exact opposite that we don't have to be afraid of it and we don't have to be afraid of it. We don't have to rush headlong that we can be careful and judicious and you

know you can talk to somebody a little bit do you can write a little bit you know we don't have to be afraid of it you know it's not some mystery that makes us during the headlights and then we can't function it's just we can approach it like anything else you know judiciously carefully reflectively that's how we make ourselves healthier. This next clip is courtesy of

Ed Winters of the an advocate and animal rights activists globally known as earthling Ed on the internet. Ed is an educator, is a public speaker, an author and content creator with a large cult following on YouTube. I think he's in residency at Harvard University right now in any event this conversation was a tremendous breakdown on veganism from all vantage points for both skeptics and the converted.

Here is earthling Ed. One thing I often ask people is know I am against animal cruelty and we all say that that we are people who commit cruel acts to animals are seen as some of the worst people that can exist and we really look down upon violence towards pets like dogs and cats and and such but we turn a blind eye to the cruelty that's

inflicted on found animals and indeed animals that are exploited in other ways as well. So when I ask people are you against animal cruelty when I'm trying to do I suppose is highlight that contradiction our values. You know when we say about cruelty and I say to people can you define what that means to be cruel to someone. You know people will always say that it's

about causing physical or mental you know emotional harm. So I do so make that unnecessary that negatively contributes to someone else's well-being. And then when we think about what we do to animals of course it's cruel you know we mutilate them we exploit them we forcibly impregnate them we take their babies away from them and then we take their life from them prematurely for an unnecessary

reason. I mean to me that's like the definition of being cruel to an animal. So I realized that in that moment thinking about the KFC thinking about the chickens and realizing that there was this kind of disalignment in the person I fought I was when it came to animals and the person I actually was and so I kind of reached this fork in the road if

you're pardon the pun but this fork in the road where I could choose to kind of bury my head in the sand. Hopefully repress those feelings and just go on with my life and not worry about animals anymore or I could accept this something not quite right with my values and my actions and I'm going to I chose the latter and went vegetarian because I didn't

know anything about dairy or eggs and then I saw earplings which is a documentary that exposes what happens in US farms and slaughterhouses. The movie we all begrudgingly watch exactly we have to get dragged or watching it and then we're never the same. It is a hard watch isn't it's like an hour and 40 minutes of objective I guess undercover hidden camera footage that just shows

what happens to animals and after that I went and spent time with the roop at the hamster who was my first real pet and I don't like to use the word pet so much but more like companion animal you know who's kind of my companion and I have roop at my hands now I was looking at roop at the hamster and I gave him some broccoli

because broccoli was his favorite food he loved broccoli absolutely loved it so I gave him some broccoli and I was looking at roop eating this broccoli of his cute little paws you always look so adorable and I was looking at him thinking there's so much about roop at that creates moral worth for him you know he's an individual he has likes and dislikes and he loves

the broccoli but he didn't like other things like kale for example he had likes and dislikes things that made him roop at the hamster and if I've all the animals who were exploited in all the different ways to exploit them you know I wasn't eating meat but I was still consuming dairy and eggs I was still perpetuating systems that exploits animals and other means and it

really dawned on me in that moment that the issue of what we do to animals isn't just really about food you know food is a symptom of the problem the problem it is a mentality that creates the justification for these systems to exist in the first place the fact that we view non-humanimals are these non-humanimals with such little worth that we can then justify doing everything

that we do to them that's the problem and I realize that veganism isn't just about eating plant-based food it's about challenging that mindset that values non-humanimals as having such little worth that we can do these unspeakably cruel things to them and not batten eyelid about it most of the time a lot of people have an analogous experience where their witness to some type of animal cruelty

and they're compelled to kind of reckon with how that measures up against their value system but not that many people use that as a lever or tipping point to actually make change I mean there's so much packed into that there's the level of cognitive dissonance this idea like you know we all flinch and look away from things like earthlings and slaughterhouse videos and stuff like that

for the very reason and you talk about this like the very reason that it will compel us to confront that dissonance and if we do that then perhaps we either need to make that change that we don't want to make or we have to live with that level of disconnect which creates kind of like you know just a lack of integration with just being human right

so you had this moment like what was it about your background or you know leading up to that that you were kind of primed to make that change that so many struggle to make well I think that we often as vegans we often think of this one moment you know I saw it but what we forget or don't often realize is that for our whole life

there are all these little moments that are building up to this this kind of realization and so for my whole life I was raised with this mentality that you know animals should be cared for you know that people that do about things to animals around that we should you know try and protect our environment you know I was raised with these values now I was raised

with the I guess the concept that a world with reduced suffering is preferable so this was kind of like the mentality I had by never really connected all of these components with you know being vegan or with the consequence of not being vegan so for me it was just like this I suppose domino effect of thinking about these different points in my life you know for

example I stopped going to zoos before I stopped eating meats and dairy and eggs and the reason I stopped going to zoos is because I had seen the documentary blackfish and the documentary blackfish made me not want to see you go to aquariums but then I went to Barcelona Zoo and in Barcelona Zoo I saw a bear and this bear just looks so solemn and so

sad they were just sat down in this very small enclosure looking around and I kind of followed their eyes they looked around the enclosure and looked to the four walls they were trapped in and it dawned on me that these animals are also being kept in captivity like the orcas at sea world are so that I left Barcelona Zoo and never went to another zoo after

that so I had these kind of moments that made me realize that what we're doing to animals isn't something that's good for animals is definitely not but also is something that I'm not going to do and I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm funding these very things that I'm feeling very upset about to continue and how do I as a

person who wants to reduce suffering who thinks that a world that you know obviously we're never going to create a utopia but a world that is trying to reach that utopia as much as we can how does pain for slaughterhouses to exist how does that work in this kind of vision of the future that I would like to live in it doesn't so it was all

these little moments but then just this overarching realization that I'm not living in alignment then I'm fundamentally a hypocrite when it comes to my treatment of animals and that was the final piece to go there is a problem here that is bigger than just this food problem it's a mentality issue and as a consequence of that I have to be that exemplary what I want to

see. The narrative we have about aging is you age you work and you're tired of three stages in life. You learn to your 25 you earn to your 60 or 65 and then you retire till you die and if you look at a millennial today like what the hell is that tyranny of the three-stage life I wanna actually learn till I'm 20 or 25 and then

I'm gonna work for 10 years and then I'm gonna take a year off I'm gonna do a gap year and then I'm gonna go get a Masters I'm gonna learn again and then I'm gonna go retire I'm gonna work for 10 years and start a company and then retire and then go back and get a PhD and you know it's more episodic it's not like you

have these three stages of life that are age-defined so that let us M.E.A. becoming very popular and let us to creating regenerative communities and these ideas of let's get rid of the idea of retirement communities. Yeah this is the real exciting part. Are you gonna live in a retirement community someday? It's the most depressing horrific aspect of our culture to just warehouse old people and hide

them. It's a form of age apartheid let's like take those people and put them in a place where we can't see them so they're with each other and let's also recognize that frankly earlier generations sort of saw it and you know our parents may have enjoyed it but there's also this weird sense that in you know back in the old days if you were working on

the factory floor or you were a school teacher your whole life you got to 60 and you said thank God I'm retiring because I can't do that the factory floor work anymore or I'm just so tired of this work or you know being a house cleaner or whatever it was and you know we have a lot more knowledge workers today and I think we have a

lot more wisdom workers that's a phrase that I think is gonna come into being but the knowledge workers they can work together 70s or the 80s or whenever it's not physical labor that actually defines how they get paid and so more and more of them are of the mindset like I don't want to retire or I can't afford to retire from your lips 90 or 95

I can't retire at 62 and also that generation is far more inclined to be pursuing work that has personal meaning to them and you know work our legacy is that three chapter kind of approach to life that's what our parents did and we can't kind of were reared with that sensibility and now we're in our 50s and 60s and a lot of us are having those

kind of crisis moments but over the course of those many decades leading up to it there is a calcification around mindset this is who I am this is what I do here's what I can expect for my life here's how I see the world this is the people that I vote for and this is you know these are the things that I talk about so one

of the critical kind of tools that you leverage at the modern elder academy that I want to hear a little bit more about is just getting really clear on what your mindset is so that you can begin the process of deconstructing it and perhaps you know telling yourself a new story. Yeah well so there's four key pillars of our curriculum the first one's reframing aging helping

people to see that maybe their best years are ahead of them. Right can this be aspiration. It can be and you know it's something's get better with age I love that your listeners and your community is very much about keeping the body alive but certain things can actually better with age you know your emotion your emotional intelligence grows with age your spiritual awareness grows with age

so there's a lot of things actually get better with age and yes if you work on your body and your health and your nutrition it might get better with age as well you're a great example of that so there's that reframing aging then there's mindset so there's growth and fix mindset we're big fans of Carol directs work at Stanford and so a fixed mindset is when

you tend to think of life as I'm here to prove myself and I define success as winning the problem if you have that point of view as you get older is you stop playing the games you can't win and that means your sandbox gets smaller and smaller and as it gets smaller you actually get more bored because you're not trying new things so moving from a

fix to a growth mindset means moving from proving yourself to improving yourself instead of focusing on winning you focus on learning and so you move into this way of thinking and way of being of okay I am just a learning machine I'm not a machine I'm a learning human one of the questions we ask at MEA is what is it that you know now or have

you done now that you wish you'd known or done 10 years ago think about that for a moment and then ask yourself 10 years from now what will you regret if you don't learn it or do it now and this is how I started to learn how to surf at age 57 because I live on a beach near a surf break somewhat famous one and I

was like ain't gonna be any easier at 67 than 57 ship so I got to start learning that I also you know what started learning Spanish again the mantra in my head the mindset was I'm too old for this to older learn language but harder to learn at 67 than 57 and I knew that I was gonna be living in Mexico so why not learn it

so the first is reframing age in the second is shifting your mindset the third is learning about trends some teachers were picked up and electrons were to immigrants but the two times where at this moment that I was confused about how we ended up moving on from time to time last year to August and so passing away or becoming an empty nester or going through menopause

or men go through andopause, there's a lot of transitions in midlife and learning how to understand the three stages of a transition is a big part of our program. And then the final piece of the curriculum is regeneration. In all its forms, we have regenerative cell therapy. I mean stem cell work, regeneration through understanding a regenerative purpose. But also, and this is where Paul Hawking comes

in, regenerative agriculture and farming. And that's what leads us to our regenerative communities, our first one being in Baja with 26 homes around a regenerative farm. So instead of living on a fairway, wouldn't you like to live on a farm and go out into the farm and go harvest with your neighbors and do a potluck once a week. And so now we're taking this to Santa

Fe and we have three different properties in Santa Fe, two of which will be academies, one of which will be a regenerative residential community. And I do believe that we are creating something that is meant to disrupt senior living. Okay, that's it. That's a wrap on 2022. I really hope you guys enjoyed that reflection in the rear view and found these past two episodes uplifting and

inspiring. Thank you again for all the love, for all the support. This podcast really has been an amazing journey and I'm just so grateful you're on it with me. And I look forward to growing and learning together in the new year ahead. So happy new year everybody. Until 2023. Peace. Peace.