Steven Pressfield: Battle Resistance, Master Your

The Rich Roll Podcast. You can start out as a bum where you really can't do it, you know, and over time you can actually learn. You can get better. There is hope. It does happen. Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. All is right in the world because my friend Steven Presfield is back in the studio returning for his second appearance on the show and it is

all glorious. The person that's toiling in obscurity, trying to learn a craft or to, you know, to bring forth whatever it is inside of him, I really do believe that God's watch over that person. For those who are unfamiliar, Steven is a prolific writer and prolific thinker known best for his deep insights into the creative process and the psychology of success. His books, The War of

Art, Do the Work and Turning Pro have inspired and motivated millions of readers around the world to embrace their creative compulsions and pursue their dreams with conviction and determination. And the impact those books have had on my life on a personal life, is just absolutely incalculable. Success, quote unquote, doesn't manifest immediately. It might be another 20 years before that thing, you know, comes to fruition. I

got a couple more things I would very much like to mention before we dig into this one. But first, let's acknowledge the awesome organizations that make this show possible. Okay, today we sit down. We discuss Steven's brand new memoirs. It's called Government Cheese. Really enjoyed that book. In it, he shares the improbable story of his life as he goes from this sort of lost and broken

truck driver to ultimately fulfilling his dream of becoming a writer. And of course, within that, we explore the processes required to birth a creative work and share it with the world, as well as plenty of solid life advice for any and all. I know from experience that that's self-doubt is a good sign. That it's, you know, the bigger the resistance, the bigger the dream. Again, I

really enjoyed the book, Government Cheese. More importantly, I always love spending time with Steve. It's a joy. It's just a wonderful humble wise human. And I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation. So pull up a chair and let's get lost together. So nice to see you. I'd like to look forward to this for such a long time. Congrats on the new book. Thank you.

Just churning them out. It's unbelievable. You are a product of your own advice and philosophy. Walking the talk. You know, part of this really is COVID. You know, it's like a whole period of time where you couldn't really do anything in terms of getting anything out there. So, you know, I just worked. You know, yeah, but a lot of people let COVID break them. You know,

a lot of people descended into, you know, like, the black holes of darkness and paralysis. Yeah. I guess so. I mean, you know, for the writers' life, it's not that different from the COVID. You know, you're, you're a home in a room. My phone rings a little bit. Yeah. But, you know, you always say, you know, it never gets easier. Like, the resistance is always there.

No matter how many books you write, no matter how many times you've gone to battle, you know, with resistance. And I think, you know, obviously this is a universal thing. You know, we all experienced some version of what you speak about. But during COVID, I think, you know, a lot of us let resistance get the best of us. You know, so maybe there is something to

the number of times you've gone to battle that you were able to, you know, muster the resilience to continue that battle when it broke all the amateurs out there. Maybe what, I mean, what about you with your training and stuff, Rick? I mean, I know that I was reading about David Goggins the other day. Uh-huh. Maybe even said this on with you that some mornings he

would stare at his running shoes for 20 minutes before he could actually make himself move them on. I mean, speaking of resistance, I mean, do you know why he went to fight it every day? It's interesting. I think that story came up when you did Rogan's podcast. I think he was sharing that. That was fun. That David had shared that with Joe. And, uh, and I

listened to that and I thought, yeah, that's the case. There are certainly days you don't want to let you face up and get out there. I think the difference for me is that I don't experience a lot of resistance with training. Like, I like it. Like, if I have nothing to do, like, it is my joy to go out and push my body. So, I mean,

of course, there's, it's raining and cold out. You don't want to do it, et cetera. And the resistance will certainly creep up in those moments. But by and large, it's like the highlight of my day. It's like, it almost feels indulgent or selfish. Like, I get to go do this thing. So the resistance, in my case, I think that experience shows up in other areas like,

you know, writing, uh, something, you know, a little bit about, like, you know, I think I shared in the first podcast that we did together that this, you can make a solid argument that this entire podcast, this decade of podcasting is one colossal, you know, example, you know, this, this sort of monument to resistance that I've built to make me feel better about not writing another

book, you know, and that's, uh, that's changed a little bit. We can get into that. But I guess, you know, the point being that, resistance varies and it's different for every single person. And I think people do look at me as like this athlete. But my relationship with fitness is not where I, it's like, I think David is somebody who would say, I hate, he always

say, I hate running. I hate, you know, he does it because it is a practice of him having a confront resistance. And that's empowering. And, you know, has allowed him to, you know, create this whole life. And my relationship to that world is a little bit different because I kind of find joy. And that doesn't mean it's not hard. It's just, you know, resistance manifests in

other places. Yeah. I mean, I have found sort of during COVID and post COVID that as much resistance as I have to writing, it's a joy for me too. It's like when I can get some of the other stuff that, you know, we were just talking earlier about starting a company and that kind of stuff like that, a publishing company. That's the stuff I really hate.

Yeah. So I say, oh, thank God, I can have, you know, a couple hours and I can just get in there and just face the blank page or whatever it is. So I can relate to it, you're saying rich. But you've been staring at blank pages for a long time and you know well enough how to get, you have enough experience of getting to the other

side of that. That you know, if you just keep your ass in the chair, it's, it's going to work out okay at some point. And there will be some discomfort, but you have enough of those blissful moments where the channel is wide open and the muse is, you know, dancing with you. And I'm sure you live for those moments. Yeah, I do. Yeah. And they don't

always come, you know, they don't always come when you, when you summon them though, right? No, it's, you know, it's the same thing I've grinded it out, you know, and making yourself, making it happen, you know, through action. Well, it was really great reading government cheese. I loved it. And I learned so much about your life. I mean, I've heard you speak about your journeyman days

and all these, you know, I don't 20 some odd jobs that you've had over the years and I did this and I did that. But this book, like, holy shit, like, you know, I'm like, wow, you really did live the journeyman life. Like, I think it was, I mean, we're halfway into the book. And, you know, that, that typewriter still hasn't emerged from the back of

the van. I was like, when is the writing part start? You know, like, this was a hard fought, you know, multi decade thing, you know, that, that, that really, I mean, for me, it's beautifully raw, but it really gave me an appreciation of just how severe the resistance to carry on that journey and were spent in a very special family and a very abstracted way. To

love the documentary scene, because we told the paper for the first time that a work in the bank set to the series was well known that it's not necessarily great. You had to an IG book. And found that I could do it and it wouldn't drive me crazy. Whereas my first experience of it, first trying to write the first book when I was 23 or whatever

it was, was a complete disaster and the whole thing where I thought, Steve, you're an absolute idiot for having tried to do this. Don't ever think about doing it again. To the moment, a few years later, when I actually could sit down and even churning out just garbage, it didn't matter. Just the fact of being able to punch the keys and take a few pages out

of the typewriter at the end was battery charging to me instead of battery depleting. Right. So early in the book, we were made aware of this typewriter that's hiding underneath your mattress in the end of the day. And then it really doesn't appear for quite some time. And I don't know how many 150 pages into this book. And I'm like, this book should be called Zen

in the Art of a Big Rig Trucking. The amount of detail in the world of, you have these experiences in these various subcultures. And your depiction of your life at that time is done with so much tenderness, like so much appreciation for these characters that you encountered who were very colorful at times. And in many ways, like mentors, it is a book about mentorship. Yeah, it's

like, you know, as you know, Rich, it's divided into seven books and each book is named after a person. And each person was a mentor to me. They were all men for whatever reason. And very few of them had anything to do with writing. You know, they were, you know, my boss at the trucking company that I worked at, a guy that I picked fruit with

in Washington, and then everybody knew his last name that were real role models to me along the way. Even though at the time I wasn't thinking about that at all. Right. Yeah. Real like most of them pretty solid with the Earth guys. So they got the trucking guy was you. What was his name? You read right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what a care you were solid

of the Earth. Right. And you were, I held her you at that time. I think I think 2037 or 20 or you were older than I thought. Yeah. I mean, the way that the book unfolds, it's, it's hard to get a sense of the timeline because you jump around a lot of like, wait, what part of your life in your life in your so many jobs?

I'm like, I don't know where I am. I'm just in this narrative, but, um, but you really get, you know, this sense of all these adventures that you want on that. Obviously like, you can't be a writer unless you've lived your life, right? Like you're out in the world, you know, having all these experiences, these rich experiences. I'm sure under how people that, you know, these

kind of boy wonders are girl wonders that kind of come out of YouTube or something like that these days and produce stuff. It's really good too. I wonder how they do it. Having, you know, like coming out of college and then basically going straight into whatever it is they're writing about and and doing a good job. I don't know how they do. I don't know how

Bob Dylan comes, you know, to a grandage village and immediately starts writing great stuff, you know, well, that's an interesting person to explore because you're the first to say kind of talent is bullshit. It's really about process and work and, you know, showing up and meeting the resistance and all of that. But then, you know, then you have, you know, you have the Bob Dylan's and

you have these people who do see them touched. And I think, you know, that makes the rest of us kind of look at creative pursuits as something inaccessible or like not, you know, we're not privileged to be able to, you know, kind of dance with them using the way that those people can. So we should just go get normal jobs. I mean, what I mean, I'd

be interested to know what you think about that, Rich. I mean, you think about somebody like Neil Young or Bob Dylan or any of those guys that or Joni Mitchell that by the time they were 20 years old, they already had like a body of work. And they were obviously writing from absolute strength, right? They were right in their groove. And they kept going. Some of

them are still going, right? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. What do you? What do you mean? Did you watch get back the Beatles? I've been wanting to, I know, what is it on Amazon? Something I can't access. I think it's on. I'm saying, no, it wasn't on Apple. Disney. I can't remember. I think we actually went to try to watch it the other day

and we couldn't find it. If it's still up anyway. My point being like, you get this from this unedited kind of bird's eye view of the greatest rock band to ever, to ever do it while they're just cracking songs in real time. Like you're, you're, you're bearing witness to an unadulterated view of the creative process in real time. And it's really beautiful and magical. Like when

they're just working out these songs and you're just like, oh my God, like this is where it happened. And then you realize how young they were. Yeah. You're like, because you don't think of it. And then being like, really young people who, you know, the band ended when they were still quite young. And you're like, how did they know how to do all of that stuff?

That's such a young age. And maybe music is different. I don't know. Maybe. I do think there are some people who are touched. Right. But I think most people who are working in the creative pursuits are not, you know, anointed geniuses. They're people who work really hard at the craft. It's certainly that certainly was my experience, you know, you know, if there's any sort of lesson,

like I'm, I've, because I've been looking back thinking on this, right? I've been doing some podcasts and people who ask me questions. I have to think about it. And if there's any sort of lesson that comes out of this for me, it's that you can get better. You can start out as a bum where you really can't do it, you know? As hard as you try,

you just can't do it. And over time, you can actually learn. And get better, at least in writing. It's not like necessarily being an athlete where there's a certain cell by date, you know, where, you know, when you're 75 years old, you're not going to be whatever. But you can get better. There is hope. It does happen. Yeah. I mean, not everybody can be liberal James

or Prince or, you know, somebody like that. But your book is in the memoir really, you know, tells the story of just how, you know, long the journey was, you know, what's remarkable, like if you have a true God-given talent, it's your ability to kind of stay in it. You know, most people would have just spun out and ended up in some other job or career,

but you kept at it. And writing novels, like a year, two years, to write these novels that nobody would publish and to continue to do it. I'm like, oh my God, this guy's like a glutton for punishment at some point. And I can't imagine the voice in your mind, you know, that the war that was going on between, like, really you're going to write another novel

when, you know, the last one nobody wanted to touch with, like, that's just resistance. You got to keep going. Are you a writer or are you not? Well, you know, it, you know, it's, it's really, when I think about it too, I sort of wonder how I did it too. Yeah. But each time I would sort of try to go straight, you know, get a real

job, like, like I had several jobs at ad agencies throughout this thing, because that's a job. If you're a writer, you can get that job, right? But each time, each day, at the end of the day, I would be so, depressed, you know, that I just had to go home and try to write a chapter, half a chapter, or something like that. You know, I wasn't

living any kind of life like, you know, chasing women or anything like that. It was all of this one groove of just trying not to be so depressed. It's already to kill myself, you know, because of what I, you know, trying to go straight during the day. So I just knew I couldn't do that. It wasn't an option for me. Right. This, this is who you

are. This, this has to be birthed into the world like your life depends on it. Yeah. It really, you know, no plan B sort of type of you may want to have a plan B, but they just don't work. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, and you, there's the characters when you're picking apples who, you know, these guys are like, I mean, they're riding the rail

cars, right? Like these are like hardcore, like, hobo lifestyle, yeah, train car dudes. Yeah. And even one of them I can't remember his name is like, you know, I tried to, you know, I had a, I had a girlfriend and I had a solid job and I did it. And he lasted like 90 days. Yeah. No, he's like, I gotta, you know, like what is this,

this idea that we've been sold about what it, what it means to live a happy, you know, fulfilling life in many ways as a lie. And you've had the experience of being with lots of different people who have rejected that and are considered lunatics or, you know, kind of outcast or outliers as a result of that. But there's also like a lot of wisdom to be

mined from somebody who has the courage to step outside of that and say, I'm gonna live differently. And I don't care what society is about that. Well, although I'm not sure how much of a choice it is for people like that. Yeah, of course, right? Yeah. You know, the, when I was, there was one little bit in the book about when I was at the living

in a half warehouse, you know, for people coming out of state institutions and stuff like that. And how my sort of conclusion about who they work, because they were really interesting people. I mean, we would sit in a kitchen at night and talk about all this kind of crazy stuff, you know, men and women. And they were certainly as smart as anybody I knew. And it's

interesting as anybody I knew. And I started, my conclusion was that they were people who saw conventional life, the life of having a job of settling down and having, they saw completely through that. They just couldn't do it, you know, which meant that they were crazy as far as the world was concerned. The world locked them up. They were people who were in the state institutions,

but they sort of, and there was no place for them to go. It wasn't like there, there was a job that they would fit into or anything like that. So, but they were, you know, almost like, if they could have joined an Indian tribe, like dances with wolves, they would have done it. And these fruit tramps were the same kind of guys. I mean, they were

all alcoholics, flat out, wine, you know, drink till you pass out, you know, get up the next morning, you know, there was no thought of going to AA or this was whatever they were, but they also felt like they couldn't work a straight job. There just was no way to do that. So they had found this, this kind of crack in the society, you know, right,

picking fruit and riding the rails and, and, and no one's going to give them a hard time and tell them they need to change. Like they're in kind of an enabling environment. Yeah, for that kind of life and behavior. But it's a really sad environment. And it's, and scared. And I'm very, very scared to be in as a, like, you know, a more or less regular

person like I was, because it's like, guys don't have teeth. Yeah. Eyes are like, I like had the big medical, you, you're, you're hauling this dude off. Yeah. And he dies. And then you actually found a body in the orchard. Yeah. But that's real. That's apparently pretty common, you know. So you could really see these guys as wonderful as they were and as pure as they

were in a certain way. You know, you know, if you came back three years from now, not, not see him again. And they knew it too. And they just, you know, right, there was no plan B. And so what do you mine from that for your, like, what do you, what do you, what can be learned from that? I feel like I'm that way. I feel

like artists are that way, you know, that you can't live the normal conventional life as much as you may want to. You have a sliver of a skill that you can do that you can do. And then you can, you know, that maybe is marketable. If you can make it marketable, but there's no, there's no choice. Right. There's no alternative. You're either in that little lane

and make it work or you're going down. You know. So, and I don't see anything wrong with that. You know, I, I feel a kinship to those guys. And, you know, the, who says that this, like, that this world that we believe in of having money in the stock market and trying to get your kids into Harvard and who says that's such a great thing. What's

so great about that? You know, to get here today, you know, you got to drive the past these companies, you know, these, I don't know what they are, you know, but they're like white collar jobs around here. It's a prosperous area. And as I'm driving fast, I'm thinking, I'm sure you think the same thing, Rich. If I was in one of these things, I'd kill myself,

you know, there's no way I could, I could do that. So what's so great about that? And of course, people that are living that life, they have alcoholism problems and they're beating their wives or whatever, or, or they're just miserable. Yeah. And that's not to say that there aren't people who find some level of happiness in that. Yeah. No, no, no. If you're wired for that

and you do that, that's great. Like, I, you know, I think, you know, one thing we share, like you, you sort of were never really part of that. You always danced around the edges of it so that you could just make enough money to be a writer, whereas I was kind of steeped in that and had to break free. So I've lived in both of these

worlds, and are pretty good sense of what they both like. But yes, there is, you know, there is a falsity in, in this sort of promise of the American dream. And we all kind of blindly premise our future happiness upon working towards these ideals without enough objective questioning of their veracity. And that's not to say that every, like you said, like not everyone is born and

bred to be an artist and to pursue that type of life, which is to invite a certain level of suffering and pain and risk into your experience that not all people are, you know, have the Constitution for. But when you write, like when you write the War of Art and you talk about resistance, I do think we all have our own unique blueprint and we have

something to say and express that's absolutely ours. And there's something important about everybody exploring that in themselves. And that doesn't mean they need to quit their jobs and, you know, go pick apples to write a book. But I think it is, you know, kind of, I think a sense of full integrity with who you are is somewhat reliant upon being in communication with your own, you

know, with your own sense of who you are and sharing that with the world. Because there's only one you, right? And you talk about this all the time. So please share it and don't keep it to yourself because the more you repress that, I think that leads to all sorts of dysfunction. Yeah. I mean, I want to give you an example from a friend of mine,

my friend Ruthie, if she sees this podcast, she's going to be trelling, you know, but this is an example of somebody that has a calling that doesn't have a definition to it. So my friend Ruthie is, she's, I don't think she's may have had one or two jobs in her life, but they only lasted like a couple of months. Basically, she's been a wife, you know,

and kind of lived off of whatever husband she's been married to. And, but yet her, her role, and this is just sort of unfolded over time in her family and her extended family and friends. If you're in trouble, you go to her. And she has bailed me out of stuff many times. And I know I can see she does it for everybody. It's like maybe in

a more of an old world culture, there would be the woman that you would, you know, that everybody would go to if you really needed to get your shitting, and she would help you somehow. And that's her calling. But there's no name for that. Right. There's a, you don't, you can't plug that into, you know, some specific job. And yeah, and they don't pay for it

either. So salary attached to it. But that's her calling. And she's gotten to that. So I'm, I refuse to believe that each individual doesn't have a calling. I think we all do. And I certainly don't mean to say that it has to be in the arts or anything like that. It can be, and even the people that are working at these companies around here, I'm sure

the ones that are happy probably have side things that they do, you know, that they're passionate about. And when the weekend comes, they're heading to the mountains or they're doing something like that, you know, that is more in tune with their own soul. At least that's my hope. Right. And the difference, the qualitative difference with like the quote unquote artist is that they have some kind

of like pain body inside of them that they feel like they're going to explode unless they give birth to it. Yeah. Like that would be like life is intolerable. Unless this thing is being nourished in some way. Yeah. And they also have some sort of a platform or an outlet. If you're a dancer, if you a musician or something like that, well, you can produce an

actual product or an experience that will let you pay the rent, you know, right. But not all, you know, and that that can vary. Right. Yes. Definitely. It's like, you know, there's being a movie. And then there's, you know, there's doing off Broadway, there's this comes in all permutations. It's not like a money thing, right. This is like a, this is, this is like a yearning

that has nothing to do with like commerce or, or career. Right. Like this. You hope it might produce some commerce. Yeah. But it's really more about giving birth to something that's inside you that won't go away. And like, where does that come? Like one of the things that I, that I, you know, I love about you. Is that, you know, you dance with the mystical. Like

you're not afraid to like explore the unseen energies and the, and the vibrations. Like the very subtle, you know, kind of wavelengths that you have to kind of be in communication with to be an expressive person. Well, I mean, you know, if you're any, any kind of an artist, a musician or whatever a writer, it becomes very clear to you right away. That what you're producing

isn't coming from you, right. It's the question of where do ideas come from, right. They, you know, they songs come completely intact to certain songwriters, right from where. So you, you know, you, I think the evolution, government and cheese is really about the evolution of a writer or of an artist. And there's certain things that you learn here. One is the kind of the craft itself,

you know, what is a story, right. Well, how does a story start? What's the middle, etc. Then they're the kind of soft skills, like having the courage to start something. What do you do when you bog down in the middle? How do you handle rejection? You know, how do you, how do you reinforce yourself when nobody else is reinforcing you? But then above and beyond that

is the mystical element. And is the question of where do ideas come from? Where an idea for a play or an idea for a car that you're going to build or whatever it is. Where does that come from? And where does it, I mean, the global idea, the big idea, and then day to day as a writer writing a novel, let's say, where does scenes come

from? Where do the characters come from? And you definitely learn a respect for something that's unknowable. And, you know, in the book I talk about, and I've talked about this in the War of Art too. I had a mentor named Paul Rink. Yeah, I was going to get to him. I mean, this is the first, you had lots of mentors, but this was really the guy.

He was probably the only actual writer that's kind of sat me down and said, this is what you do, kid. You know, I mean, how many books did you written before you even understood what a story was or what a three-act structure was? A lot. You saved yourself a little. A lot. Time and energy. And, you know, had you met up with your boy Robert O'Leary

a little bit earlier? You know what it's like. You know, I really learned it all kind of in the movie business, you know, bit by painful bit. But I got a lot of questions about that. But go ahead. But speaking about Paul, my mentor, I used to, I was living on this little street in Carmel Valley, Northern California. And I had saved money. And I was

just setting, trying to finish the first book I'd ever finished, because I, I had crapped out earlier on, you know, and Paul lived up the street and he lived in a little camper, parked out in front of his house. And I would have breakfast with him or coffee with him every morning. And he gave me, he typed out the invocation of the muse from the Odyssey,

from Homer's Odyssey, from the T.E. Lawrence translation, Lawrence of Arabia, which I still have. It's like, I can tattered it up, it's like powder. But he sort of really introduced me to the idea that not only that things are coming from some other dimension, but that people for thousands of years have been, have known about this and have invoked that other dimension and the muse. And

so that really, that was a huge thing to teach a young writer, you know, the respect for that that has never. Left me for a minute. So this guy, he's living in a camper in front of his house, but he sleeps in the car. I mean, it's got a car. But he also, right? So you know what it is. Yeah, I get it. I'm like, he's,

yeah, listen, this guy's my spirit animal. But he, you know, provides you with the reading list. You're going to read all these people, all the grades from, you know, all the Greeks, but also, you know, the Russians and, you know, really is a taskmaster in that regard. And ends up, you know, providing you with all these principles that really become tenets in the other books that

you write, the prescriptive books that you write. When you finish a book, you start another one, all these sorts of things that become so fundamental like it's amazing. Does he? Do you ever, like, I don't know when he passed or whatever, but did, was he able to kind of appreciate the impact that he had on you? Or was there a level of pride and everything that

you ultimately were able to accomplish later? It's a good question because he died before I had ever had any remote success. Oh, man. But I know that just, you know, we had a friendship and he was just, you know, being a mentor to a young guy that was trying to learn something. But one interesting thing, Rich, was that as he had no respect for writers per

se, he would sort of warn me against, you know, like, don't turn into that kind of, you know, he said, you know, they're basically ego maniacs and basically they'll stab their own, you know, wife in the back, you know, so he said, but he did, he was certainly a real believer in, in working hard and doing the absolute best you could with whatever your gift was,

you know, that this was serious, that you were not just turning out, you know, entertainment or something that you were in, you were really trying to, to bring your gift forth, whatever it was. And he was absolutely serious about it. And you're really kind of like lecturing me, you know. Yeah. And that it's worthwhile. Yes. Right. Which a lot of people don't think, you know, what

Hollywood is, you know, yeah, people are there, you know, some of them are there to do good work, but a lot of them are not. Yeah. My favorite quote in the whole book comes from the section about him, which is God's watch over lost souls, particularly when they dream. Is that from the invocation? I just wrote it down. No, that's actually Paul. That was me. That

was you. I mean, that's such a beautiful sentiment. But I do think it's true. Yeah. You know, that the person that's toiling in obscurity, you know, trying to learn a craft or to, you know, to, to bring forth whatever it is inside of them. I really do believe the gods look down and watch over you, you know, watch over that person. And, and, and and protect

them somehow, you know, I can't prove it. Obviously, I believe it. Yeah. I mean, I believe it. I've felt it in my own life. And it's a very tangible experience. And I think life, you know, you know, you could, we could have an argument. Is this real? Is it a magic? Yeah. But, you know, I have my experience. You have your experience. And I think life

is better and more interesting when you indulge in this. I mean, I know viewing you. What's your experience? I mean, my experience is that is that when you take those energies seriously and you respect them, that you are rewarded as the wrong word, but you are heard. And you get what you need. Now specifically, are we talking about athletics? Are we talking about writing? What are

we talking about? I think, you know, I think of it in terms of the pursuit of the authentic self. So in your case, that's through writing and becoming an artist. But I think that can be. You know, experienced in many different ways, whether you're trying, you're in a space in your life. And you have aspirations to be this other person, or you have a broader imagination

of what your life could be like. But you don't know how to get from here to there. Like how do you navigate that? Well, there's practical considerations. Like I interview for a job or I do, you know, these things. But I think from the unseen kind of spiritual realm, there's a, you know, that's, that's the lever, right, that you want to tap into. And I think

it's about really connecting with the truth of who you are and living as integrus with that as possible. And when you do that, I think the universe sees that and pays attention. And little, little sort of bricks on the path are put in front of you to gently nudge you in one direction or the other. And if you are in a place where you have the

presence of mind, the awareness to see that and heed that, then that process compounds upon itself. Can you give me like a specific moment in your, in your life? Well, I mean, I think, you know, and I told this story in Finding Ultra, like we, you know, like I was like, I can't be a lawyer anymore. And now I'm like going off and like training for

these races. There's no career path here. But I felt certain in my conviction that this was necessary as a building block towards a different light. And even though there was no logical or rational justification for that. And I had an aspiration. Or a dream of being in a place where I could provide for my family in a way that was personally meaningful to me and helpful

to other people. And what that looked like, I had no concept of. So it was holding loosely to that while also taking actions that honored that internal voice, even if that voice was orthogonal to, you know, societal values or what other people expected of me. And the more you honor that, the more you are more likely you are to find evidence in the world to support

that. So like this idea of when the heart is true, the universe will conspire to support you, which is sort of my version of saying God's watch over lost souls, particularly when they dream. And that doesn't mean it's going to manifest in the manner in which you choose or on the timeline that you prefer, certainly your timeline, you know, probably was not a preferred route for

yourself. But in retrospect, when you look at what you look back upon your life, it all looks like every little piece was necessary to allow you to be here today. Right? There's this incredible design to the whole thing that when you're in the midst of it is very disorienting. And your only true north is that voice within yourself that you either choose to honor or you

repress. Yeah. Yeah. And the other aspect of that is that when you, at least this is my experience, when you achieve some sort of a breakthrough on that path, even if it's just a private breakthrough, that it doesn't success, quote, unquote, doesn't manifest immediately. It might be another 20 years before that thing, you know, comes to fruition. So in the movies, it's never like that, right?

You know, somebody, you're in the corner and all of a sudden everything's great. But in real life, it doesn't seem to work. So what is an example of that for you? The fact that like War of Art is still, like finding new audiences and exploding in the world. And it does or like, um, you know, there's a story that I tell in the War of Art

that I repeat in government cheese about a night when I was alone in my sublet apartment in New York, where I finally got out the typewriter sat down and it worked. You know, and I felt like in that moment, okay, I'm a writer, you know, I, I knew I was, I was a million miles away from actually succeeding if I ever would succeed. But I felt

like, okay, at least I can do this and it works. It charges my battery. It doesn't. But yet, it was still another like 25 years. Right. Until I got a book published. So, but still at that point, I became a different person. You know, something changed in, in my DNA, you know, a certain level of self doubt went away at that point. And, and if you

had to identify specific genetically what that was or how that happened, and why that happened in that moment, uncom Cultural Deceived that I think it just for me was it's a really good question because it's kind of mysterious. It sort of like. You fail and you fail and you fail and you failed and several build up ahead of steam of failure. And like finally, it's like

you can't fail anymore. You know, the gods are going to give you something that maybe a moment where you know, Heaven looked out for souls of the dream, you know, where the other dimension said, okay, we're going to give it to this kid, you know, he's he's earned it. What's getting a break? Which I think is true. Right. You sort of build up and build up

and finally the gods say, okay, we got to give this guy something. Right. Right. And and your job is to not relent to not quit. Yeah. If you stay in it and your heart is true. Yeah. But it's like swimming in the middle of the ocean. It's like, yeah, what's the choice? Right. Well, you say like, so you you characterize it or you talk about it

or think about it as this, this like underground river, right. Yeah. The price of of admission to which is the work. Yes. Yeah. So your job is to do the work. Then you get to flow in this river. And the river is going to take you where it's going to take you. And there are these unseen energies. And when you're in that dance with the muse

and, you know, on a daily basis and you're consistent in that regard, like something is going to happen. As long as you don't, you know, pull out of the river. Yeah. I think that's stopped doing the work, which is a it's a weird sort of contradiction in that we're talking about something really airy, fairy. Yeah. Like when I say an underground river, I mean like for

a for a writer, it's the stories that will come to you, right. Or whatever it is that you're you're trying to write. And that's that is this underground river that's inside you. But how do you get to it? You don't get to it by mystical means at all. You get to it by just busting your ass every day, you know, grinding it out, you know, through

day after day after day of having no inspiration at all. That that's the price. Right. And there is no other. The least very fair thing. Like the least sexy or airy fairy thing ever. Yeah. Which is like the grind. Yeah. And there's no it's athletics too. Right. There's no other currency other than getting out there on the trail and doing your thing. Right. You can do

it smart. But there's no other currency that heaven is going to accept. Yeah. One of the things that I think is remarkable about you and I and I see this in Ryan holiday also is your ability to like produce a work and you're you're already steeped in the next work. And this almost seamless segue from one thing to the next without like understanding that to take

a break is to interrupt momentum and momentum is something to be protected and respected above all. It has its own like force field and energy about it. And you don't want to interrupt that. Right. So you have to always be in this sort of perpetual motion from one thing to the next, which also is about decoupling the work from the results of the work. Right. Like

so it's easy to be like. You just like government cheeses out. You're doing all these podcasts. Hey, let's see. How's it doing? Like let's take a beat now. And let's let's you know, like we're going to be able to do it. We're really get into like the results of the work, but I'm sure you're already well into whatever it is you're writing next. Yes, I am.

And I certainly have found that just through hard experience that the worst thing that any artist or creative person can do is finish one thing. Put it out there and then like wait for the world to respond. You know, because either the world is going to totally ignore it. Are they going to crap all over it? Right. So plus it it violates some cosmic law. You're

not allowed to reap the fruit. You know, you're only allowed to move on to the next harvest, whatever it is or the next planting. That's just the cosmic law. Yeah. And And do you find yourself like is there superstition around that too? Like you actually indulge in like, oh, if I check that, then that's going to really this is going to undercut my exact absolutely. You

know, how when you sort of when you really want something and you sort of check, I don't know what like you check your your email or your Instagram or something. The act of checking it on some level prevents the thing from happening. You know, at least that's my, you know, it's like when you forget it. Then you come home and there's a letter. Oh, there it

is. Here's a check. I was you know, but. So yeah, I'm very superstitious about that. Yeah. What are some of the other superstitions? I mean, I just do. We call them that not obsessive compulsive behaviors, but I'm sort of a belief, you know, the believer that, you know, things like, like fairies and elves and angels, they exist. Uh huh. And they're right here right now and

watching us and. And if we. So I don't want to piss them off. You know, I want to show them respect, even in my own thoughts, you know, because, you know, I don't know. Um, did I ever, did we ever talk about my, uh, when I was with the mass eye and they, did I ever tell you that I can't remember. I can't remember. But I'll

tell you this for whatever this is worth. Somehow I, I had this job and I got to go to Africa and I got to go to, we flew out to this mass eye encampment my helicopter. No roads. And when we got there, there was a camp of maybe a thousand people, women, kids, the whole thing. And the shaman had just decided, Oh, shit, we got to

move the camp. And everybody was just sort of getting set to do that. In order to do that, they had to get the white cattle to lead the other cattle to the new camp. Anyway, it was a whole involved thing. You know, and everybody had to like pack up all their shit. And it was all done in the greatest of good spirit. The camp was going,

Oh, I wonder if we have to move the camp for, and they can move the camp like 300 feet just up the hill. That was it. Boom. Thanks. Okay. And I thought to myself, I wish I could have talked to that shaman because I would like to ask him what was wrong with 300 feet down there. Why did we have to move? And I'm sure he

would say something like, you know, if we had stayed there, so and so would have broken his leg. I could see or write something like that with somebody that's looking for me. They would have miscarried us. So we had to move there. So I don't know how to justify this, but I believe it. Yeah. I think they saw the shaman saw something. So I'm superstitious about

that sort of stuff. And if you ever read Bob Dylan's book, whatever Chronicles part two or part one, it's very much like that. I mean, he's like that. He thinks that way too. Yeah. Like I had never thought about how you actually make an out of it. And he's like, you know, he's like, he's got, let's say he's got 14 songs. He's written them. He's got

them on the piano. He's got them on the guitar. But then the question is, what musicians am I going to have to do? Who's going to produce this? Should we do it here in LA? Should we go to Memphis? You know, and he's looking for that mysterious thing, you know, right? Who's the guy that's going to produce it? And the sort of the book is about

his kind of, he believes in this, this his crazy sort of, we're going to go to this honky talk. We're going to talk to this guy. I never heard of this guy before. He's going to introduce this woman. She lives in, you know, Balexie. And we're going to go there. Right. Somehow it works. Right. It's not, it's not something that that makes sense on paper. No,

it's about, it's about resonance and vibration. And, you know, yeah, like there is something about, you know, the unseen energies. And I think in our fast-paced modern western, industrialized world, we've, you know, we've become people who live predominantly in our minds. And I think we have a certain hubers and arrogance about our intellectual capacities, where we believe that we can be all knowing. And our senses

are unlimited. But the truth is, like, our senses are incredibly limited. I think there's a lot going on that, you know, our eyes and ears and taste and smell are not attuned to be able to know. It's really interesting to me, Rich, is now AI. I keep reading these articles. Right. It's capable of writing stories, writing songs. Yeah. But can there possibly be any soul to

that? You know, well, that's, that is a philosophical question. As the AI continues to sort of, not just advance, but like self-learn, an accelerated pace. At some point, do we cross the Rubicon into, you know, inevitable consciousness, right? And, and sentience on some level, even if it's different from our version of it. It's kind of like fascination. But, you know, the broader point being, like, the

idea that, like, if you think about quantum physics or the idea that, like, you know, time is a, is a mental construct, like, are we living, you know, multiple existence simultaneously? Or, you know, can we explore that Hindu tradition of past lives and all of that? Like, whether there's veracity to that or not, like, I do think that there is just so much more happening. And

we're so arrogant to believe that we have a grip on this. And I think it's just better to be in a place of humility and to, you know, acknowledge that kind of mystery. Yeah. And it makes life more interesting anyway. You know, it's more fun. And, you know, it's always interesting when, you know, the minds that we know what we're doing. And then, like, two years

later, you realize, like, they didn't know what they were doing at all, right? Like, yeah. Over, you know, I'm not sure. Enough time. We realize that so much of our, you know, self-evowed intelligence has been proven to be incorrect. So, or like the premise of Blade Runner 2049 or whatever it was, right, was that they, uh, the replica gave birth to a child, right? That's not

supposed to happen. So that means these replicants that are manufactured human beings have us could have a soul. And that's, and that was the reason why we're doing this. It was the whole case of the movie. Yes, they do have a soul. Yeah. And, uh, and then we wonder, are we replicants? Is what? Yeah. But it's great. Yeah. Uh, I mean, how do you, I mean,

when you, when you acknowledge the muse and these energies that have shown up for you time and time again, that it becomes impossible to rebut the notion that they're real and how they operate in your life, you start to think about, you know, universal truths, right? Like universal unspoken truths. Like, is there like this is a truth, right? If you show up for the work, the

muse is gonna appear for you, right? Like, I'm thinking about this because I had Peter Singer here yesterday, who's a moral philosopher, kind of a legendary guy. You get some such amazing people. I mean, he was, he was, it was really cool to talk to him. And, you know, this is a guy who spent his whole life thinking about these very questions in the construct of

ethics and morality. Like, and I said to him, is there a universal, like does a universal sense of, morality exist independent of the human condition? And this is a guy who, he said yes, but he's also an atheist, which is confusing to me. Like, how can you, how can you believe in that if you don't have a sense of some kind of spiritual truth that extends,

you have an ability to comprehend? I don't know if I asked him directly. I don't, it's all like a soup in my room. But yeah, like, so when you think about these energies that you're tapping into and, and your relationship with them is so real, it is real, right? Yeah. So, yeah, the next question is, what does it all mean, right? If, you know, not just

me, but tens of millions of people out there are all sort of tapping into energies and coming up with stuff. Does that mean that there's a great consciousness, God, whatever, who is moving humanity in some direction, and we little drops of water are contributing to that ocean in one way or another? Are we co-creating? I never knew exactly what that meant. But is that part of

this deal? And then you think to yourself, well, what about the guy who invented national socialism? You know, or, you know, the evil stuff that's in the world, right? That's coming from some, some place beyond. I don't know. It boggles a mind. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it all goes back to this same question that you positive, which is like, where do ideas come from?

Like, where do they come from? Right? The last time that we sat down and spoke, this book government cheese didn't exist. You probably were already writing it on some level. In your blog, you're like, you know, a year into it and you're like, this is terrible. I should never be writing this. Like all the same stuff that an amateur would think, but here we are and

it's done. And this is something that that came through you, right? And now is a thing in the world. Where do I look? What do ideas come from? Yeah. Do they emanate? Do they? Some, you know, super intelligence or, you know, some Godhead that disperses a collective consciousness. Because I do think there is something about like on that idea of listening to your internal voice, like

doing enough inside work where you can kind of make sure it's clear skies inside of you. And whatever you're hearing about yourself is coming through unadulterated by whatever past traumas or experiences you've had. So you have a clear signal. And I think when you're tuned into that clear signal, there's something about your kind of antenna being a tune to the greater consciousness. Like that consciousness saying,

yes, this is your role. You're supposed to be doing this. And when you fulfill that role, whether it's like your friend, right? Who is this person who does so many things for other people? She is in her Dharma. I'm fulfilling that role. And we all have some version of that role. And what does the world look like when everybody is, you know, attuned with perfect fidelity

to that signal? Yeah. And the other weird thing about this rich is that I don't think there's ever been a time in history where this concept had any wide bearing. Right? If you think about the Middle Ages, right? People are just trying to dig a turnip out of the ground, you know? Or the Roman Empire Alexander, the greater is all about conquest and stuff like that,

right? There never was a time until now. I think when there have been people that have been enough leisure time and enough resource that they can indulge this kind of top of the Maslow pyramid. Right. This is the very peak of the pyramid for sure. Right? What was I put here for? You never could even think about that. No, that was indulgence. Yeah. Yeah. So, and

also, I think the world is basically breaking down, in my opinion, because people can't deal with that. You know, we want to get into politics. We probably should do. I think a lot of the dark energy that's out there comes from people on mass who can feel this, that there's something inside them, but can't bring it out or don't know that it's even possible to do.

And so that energy goes into a dark direction. And, you know, the web feeds that, you know, because dark minded people can get together. Anyway, I'm getting off on another chance. Yeah. No, I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I I think there's truth to that. Listen, you know, not everybody has the ability to indulge the very peak of Maslow's, you know, pyramid, right? So it is, it is a privilege to be able to even entertain that we can

acknowledge that. And I think there's a lot of people who are suffering who are just trying to make ends meet day to day. Perhaps they do have some impulse inside of them, but because of the circumstances of their life, it doesn't feel plausible for them to pay attention to that. And I think it then festers and gets more deeply repressed. And that creates a dissonance between

the aspirant self and, you know, the day to day existence of the self in the real world. And that has to, you know, over time, kind of erode the soul, right? And it's not surprising that somebody would, would, you know, become depressed or resort to some kind of darkness. Yeah. I mean, you know, Eric Hoffa is the true believer in his stuff. I don't know if

I have actually, you know, Eric Hoffa knows that. Oh, these, this is great. I'll really turn it on to something to blow your mind. Eric Hoffa was a philosopher, an American philosopher, but he was a long shorman. And he was this, he, I think he was German. And Eric severed back from the day, the newsman back in the day, a contemporary Walker Conquite did it like,

and so on and so forth, get their recruits from people in the exact state of mind that you're talking about now. And of course, we can all relate to that. We've all been in places like that where, you know, there's something trying to be born inside them. They don't know what it is that the energy turns dark. And they're looking to some fewer, right? Right. That

will, you know, Jim Jones and Jones town or whatever the hell that thing was, you know, that, that, that, that, that's where this kind of true believer thing comes from. The recruits that will be, you know, doing this comes from, from that. Yeah, really. Fresh rage frustration. And, and then, you know, finding an outlet in escape go, we can, I mean, this is, this is how

national, you know, the rise of nationalism and all, it's their fault. There are the right. I'm unhappy or I don't have the thing that, that I need and a strong leader to kind of affirm that sensibility. Yeah. But where this is all coming from, getting back to the concept of resistance. If you'll forgive me for throwing that down. Yeah. This is what we're looking at. That,

that the individual soul being attacked by its own tendency to, to, to sabotage itself and to prevent itself from, from living out its destiny and being unaware of this. Nobody has ever brought this up or taught them or anything like that. Inevitably turns down a darker path. And that's where these movements come from. I know I'm super oversimplifying it. But we're in this place now. The

world is where freedom is possible. And the top of that Maslow pyramid is possible for lots of people. And it's called, and this is the dark side of that, if you ask me. Right. Because if it's possible and you're not experiencing, yeah, that has to be extra painful. If you're in a, if you're in a society or a situation where it's not possible, perhaps you could

find peace with your circumstances. Yes. Yes. It's like, um, detoked V, you know, talking about democracy in America. Uh-huh. When there's a society that's theoretically at least of equals and theoretical and politically free, so that everybody can be whatever they want to be. If somebody else is living that out and you are not. That's a hell of a reproach. Even if it's unconscious, you don't know

that. I mean, I think this whole, I know we're getting to politics here. It's kind of like the no nothing party. You know, in the concept of, of people saying, uh, he's no better than me. That son of a bitch. You know, who's he to tell me that I should get shots or that I should back. You know, whatever it is. That, that kind of concept

of, uh, if he can, you know, live out his life or dream, and I'm not, then something, then that's something it's very hard to live with. Yeah. And something has to give somewhere in there. Right. So yeah. No, no, no, no. I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. So that's how, you know, that's how resistance operates, you know, with how it dances within

our forces. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, and can, you know, lead people down a path that, you know, yeah, better, better let less blazed, I guess. Right. Um, but if somebody is, like, let's say somebody is feeling stuck and they are in a kind of a, you know, quote unquote, dead end situation. And they're harboring some aspiration of their, for their life being different or better. And

they can't see the path forward and they pick up, you know, the war of art. Like what is the, you know, the aspiration that you have for that person? I mean, I think that there is, regardless of your circumstance, there still exists the ability to change in a positive way, even if incrementally. Yeah, I absolutely think so. I mean, I'm proof of that. Yeah. But, um,

and I dare say that if we, if you could bring in, you know, three or four people and have, and sit them down here who are in that sort of state of, you know, seeking something, but not being able to put their finger on it. And we said to them, okay, answer in 1.2 seconds. What is your dream that you're not doing? They'd know it. You

know, they might be ashamed to say it or embarrassed to say it, but they'd know it, you know. And, uh, so then it's a question of, well, what are you going to do about that? You know, is there any, what's the first step to, to going there? Or what do you want to do? What are you willing to risk or sacrifice? Yeah. And not everybody's willing

to kind of implode their life in the pursuit of whatever that aspiration is. And that's okay. Also true. Right. And of course, you know, you don't have to blow up your life to do it. You know, you can do it one hour a day. Right. How did you not end up, you know, pursuing kind of a Robert McKee, you know, kind of, I'm going to do

seminars and teach people the war of art, you know, career path. I'm sure that must have, you know, you must have thought of that. It's some, your friends with Robert, you were here when he, you know, you brought him here and do the podcast. It's interesting because you guys kind of speak to the same things, but you're also really different guys. Well, you know, I've thought

about, I've, you know, from time to time, people have said to me, you know, you could, you're leaving a lot of money on the table. But I, I would have to kill myself if I did that. You know, so I just, you knew yourself well enough. It's just not for me. Not for you. Not for me. Yeah. Not at all. Do you write that? I just

want to write. I want to talk about some of the Hollywood stuff. The stories like in the book are insane. But do you look back on, you know, either the Hollywood phase or even, you know, all these, all these different jobs that you had. I mean, there is a, you must have sort of a romantic relationship with that period of time, even if in the midst

of it, it was confusing for you. That's true. That's very astute. It's like in the midst of it, it was hell on earth, you know. But when I look back on, I know that I'm sort of out of it. I think it was probably all of it was probably the best sort of stuff that could happen to me. And that to knock the snout, out of

my nose, and to put my feet on the ground and to give me some, some role models that I have, you know, that I could call on, you know, anytime I needed to do that's who I want to be. You know, that's how the way, how would so and so treat this situation. So yeah, I do sort of romanticize. And I really feel like if I

hadn't had that period of my life, I don't know where I'd be now. But that that was absolutely essential. Way better than four years that, you know, whatever institute. Right. Some writing academy or wherever where you just were, where all of it was explained to you. But do you look back and think, well, I could have saved eight years here and there. Like I could have

snipped around the corners a little bit. Are you able to really value and appreciate all the, you know, all the color and nuance of those. I value every minute of it. I really don't think I could have accelerated it at any. Wasn't like there was any hack that I could have. I would have done or anything I could have leapfrogged, you know, like the Hollywood period.

Right. You know, I learned a lot, you know, it was sort of the school of hard and actually learn this. You learn this. You learn this. You learn this. And if you didn't learn them, you wouldn't have them. Yeah. Well, the fork in the road there is, you know, I could see an alternate reality where you did stay there or you worked it out with your

agent or whatever you found a way to make peace with writing screenplays because you were having success. And by all indications had you hung in that world, you know, who knows what would have happened. But I have no doubt that you would have become a prominent, you know, well-produced screenplay writer, you know, in this town. You end up making this other decision that you explain, you

know, liberally in the book. But do you ever think like, what would have happened if I just kept doing it? You don't, right? Because again, it's sort of, you know, and I'm just thinking of this right now just as we're talking. What happened was the ID. The ID for the Legend of Bag of Rance came to me as a book, not as a screenplay. So, and

it just came to me, just like talking about the muse there was the whole thing, you know. And, and I knew, or I, I wasn't, no, I didn't really understand this at the moment. But the fact that it was a book inevitably my agent was going to fire me. Because he'd worked too hard, you know, he can't, he can't go off and do that, right? So

again, it was sort of other forces. You know, mysterious forces that intervened like I had no choice. I mean, this, this idea came, I was just seized by it. It seemed to me completely unconmercial. I had no thought like, oh, I'm going to, this is great. You know, right. I thought this is the dumbest idea I've ever had. Who's going to want, you know, but I

just had to do it. So I didn't really have a choice. And I'm glad, you know, I'm glad I got out of that world. Right. Well, it is interesting that the thing that everybody told you not to do that was the least commercial thing you could possibly do and was effectively career suicide in Hollywood was the one thing that kind of worked and gave you this

new life. And not only that. It became a movie. Yeah, it becomes this movie, right? And there's not a good movie, but the movie, but like Matt Damon was in the movie. Yeah. Yeah. That's so kind of ironic. And, and the compunction that you had like the clarity of like, I don't care. This is right. I'm doing this. I'm willing to have my Asian fire me

and all these repercussions are of no matter because I am, you know, I am in communion with the muse. And this is, this is, this is what has to be like. Yeah. And that is, that's earned, right? Like that's earned over the many years of being in the process and understanding, you know, what made you tick and what was important to you and what your values

were. Yeah. Like you can't, that doesn't come in, you know, some seminar or, you know, some writing program. That's through life. And the other thing, Rich, was that the legend of Bhagavad Vance, the book, at least, was qualitatively different than anything I had done before. And even though I had done some good things, screenplays that never got produced, you know, but, but, you know, if you

read them, you'd say, oh, yeah, good, you know, but that book was qualitatively different. And I can't even really describe it other than to say it was really coming from me. You know, it wasn't me doing a genre, you know, let's do a Western, let's do a detective story. It was coming straight from me. And everything since then has been straight from me too. Right. So

something changed, some tumbler clicked over there. And I can only say it happened on another dimension of reality. And then the word, you know, the telegram came down to me. It had nothing to do with any decision I made or anything I did. Right. Which then goes back to the original question, where do ideas come from? Yeah. I mean, you did, you were a catty when

you were a kid. And so you have this experience in the world of golf, but the merging of golf and the Bhagavad Gita and then like, you know, Gates of fire, like these other books that you've written, like the original notion for them, the inception point, like that's where the mystery resides, right? Because you don't, you can't locate that. Yeah. And the other side of the

mystery is at least is that for my career, for what I've, the things I've done, each book is a surprise to me. You know, it's like, you know, the assignment comes down. I get the envelope from the muse. And I open it over and that. And how does that, like, when you wake up in the morning or after, you know, like it just, it just arrives.

Like, what is the experience of that for you? Like, how do you know? Well, let's say the idea for Gates of Fire, the book about the Battle of Thermopoly, which was a second book after Bag of Rans. So I write this one book that's this crazy sort of golf story. How do you follow that? Am I going to write another, you know? But yet, once you

have one book, you know, they want you to do another one. So I was just, you know, casting about for what to do. And I happen to be reading Herodotus, you know, and I got to that part where they're talking about the Spartans at Thermopoly. And there was a section in there and it just was like a Thunderbolt type of thing where I thought, this is

it. And I thought, you know, I can write this. There's a story here and I can write it. And here's, here's the sort of handle. But that was nothing I had ever prepared for. It wasn't like, I was a classical scholar. It wasn't like I ever thought of doing anything historical. I never thought of that. But once it was sort of there on the table, I

thought, this, I've got to do it. This is the thing. It's again, it's a mystery. But I do believe there must be some sort of law to that that when something real lands on your plate, it's a surprise. Otherwise, there's something wrong. You know, interesting to hear what Bruce Springsteen or Bob Dylan would say about because so much of their stuff seems like part of a

of an overall theme, you know, yeah, but I would bet they would, I would bet Bruce Springsteen or say, you know, Tom Jod was completely different from whatever came before that, you know, even though it might look like it's not to that. Right. And of course, they would all say that in their peak creative moments that there is an effortlessness to it, that it's flowing through

them, that, you know, the body in the mind acts as a channel, right? And your job is to just, you know, let it let it flow out. And the source of which, you know, is that's what resides in the mystical unknown, right? And when this thing lands on your plate, boom, here it is, it's your job to run with that. But if you don't, what are

you saying to the, what are you saying to the universe? What are you saying to the muse, right? And then what is the cost? What's the cost of that? Yeah. Yeah. I think you get sick, you know, something happens to you. Something right? Because there's that there's a, there's a, there's a dissonance, like you're not living in integrity way that, that like, and it's not like

for me at least there's not like it just flows immediately. It's still an incredible grind and an incredible hell that you have to go through to do it. But, but there is that sense of, of, of blessedness in there somewhere that doesn't go away. Have you read Elizabeth Gilbert's book, Big Magic? I have it, but I know what it's about. I have not read it. Yeah,

I don't, but I've listened to all the other stuff. And I mean, you should agree. Yeah, you should, big magic is like, you know, a compendium to the war of art. I mean, her notion is, I mean, it's back to that idea of the collective knowing or the collective consciousness. And, you know, when that impulse to express something exists, like your, that idea lives up here,

right? And, and you pull it down and you either express it. But if you don't, if you pass it, you're like, I'm not going to do that. Someone else is going to pull it down. Like it's out there, which is why, you know, there's two volcano movies that come out at the same time where these things tend to be like, there's trends, you know, like, oh,

why is, you know, these, these two artists who live on the other side of the planet and don't know each other, both created something that, you know, kind of they, they're similar in certain ways. Like the idea that there are, there are ideas out there, objectively. Yeah. And back to the antenna, like, are you, are you receiving that signal? Is that signal for you? It was

at great Elizabeth Gilbert story. I forget the other female writer that they became friends and a kiss and some right. Yeah. Got passed, like from Elizabeth Gilbert had sort of a started a book and then kind of let it left it on the shelf because she had other things. And once you went back to it, it was stale. It wouldn't happen. And then after this story,

I think it was a great idea. I was just a kiss. I forget the other writers name, also famous, really wonderful. I just found out she wrote the book and we want to pull it surprise. Right. So that's, but you can staffed better. I agree with maybe. Yeah. She, this is, you know, I don't know. I think I don't think it's inconsistent with the one person

alone. That's my. Well, the expression of the idea is going to be different contingent on the person, but perhaps the core idea itself. You know, I mean, how that idea is expressed is obviously going to be different from person to person. Yeah. I don't know. It's all a mystery. Yeah. I mean, how are you? You know, what is the, what is the pro, for somebody, I

don't want to assume that anybody who's listening or watching this listen to our first conversation. So maybe, you know, let's explain. At hour, one, 13, like, what is the war of art? I mean, trying to tell people and how can somebody who's new to these ideas start to think about, you know, investing in their own creative expression? Are you asking me to like talk about the

war? Well, just in general, in broad strokes. So, you know, we're kind of grounded in the, the, the concept of, the concept of an earlier book of Michael, the war of art is that there is this negative force out there that I call resistance with a capital R. And it's equates to a voice in our head that tells us, you're no good. You can't do this.

Who are you to think of whatever project that you have in your mind? And also, to distract you. Let's go to the beach. Let's have another drink. Let's have an affair. And the concept is that, if you decide you want to be in the creative arts, it's a war. And you're going to have to fight this dragon every morning that you wake up. This dragon of

self sabotage and self doubt and all that kind of thing. And that to do that, you have to find some kind of a mindset, whatever it is. You know, a warrior mindset, the mindset of a mother that's going to protect, you know, the life growing within her, whatever it is, that to overcome that thing called resistance, that it is a war. And you have to fight

it every day. And the war never abates. Never abates. Right. Never gets any less. Like the idea that you, you had to go to war with it for this, for this book, reading that blog post and all the negative self talk, you know, that you're telling yourself about this book after all the successes and the many, many books that you've written. Like, I don't know whether

to feel kinship with you or feel depressed about that. But it does seem to be a law rich that we've talked about this before, that when you're on to something that's real, that you really should be doing. Self doubt is enormous. You know, it's never, it's never like, oh, I can't wait to do this. This is so great. It's going to be so one. It's always

like, oh, God, why did I come up with this? Terrible idea. This, you know, my whatever reputation I have is it wouldn't be in a toilet when I'm doing this one. Whatever. So that, that, that, that is a thing that must be overcome that self doubt and never goes away. And I had a lot of self doubt on, you know, on government cheese, which is like

stories from my life. Right. I'm thinking to myself as I'm writing it. What do you, everybody wants to read your stupid stories, right? Everybody's got a million stories. You know, you want to tell a story about when you're picking apples and washing who cares about, you know, so I, you know, I thought you think to myself, you're an idiot for doing this. Everybody's going to hate

it, or they won't even care at all. But I know from experience that that self doubt is a good sign that it's, you know, the bigger the resistance, the bigger the dream. So as we talked about before too. Right. So, so that kept me going, you know, but I know that that happens in every project and then it'll be in the future. I'll always have to

deal with that. And I think everybody has to deal with it. Right. And, and it just morphs and changes. Right. So when you're, when you're unsuccessful, it's, you know, who do you think you are? When you become successful, it's like, you're going to ruin everything you want hard to create, or they're going to find out you're an imposter. All of that. I could just, it just

pivots, right? And like, what, why is that? Why does that exist? Like, what, why is it that, that, you know, we have to go to war with this thing? Like, why can't we just be in our expressed self? I'm sure there are people who have very little resistance. I wish I was one of those people. I was not. You know, there are people who have very

little resistance. I can't, so when I talk to people like that, I go, I'm looking at them. I mean, you tell me the truth. There's no way it's that easy for you. You know, but some people do for some people. Right. And I think those people when they become successful, that's what we all look to and say, well, you know, obviously like this world is reserved

for people. Like that. Yeah. Maybe. But did you see the Howard Stern Bruce Springsteen thing? Oh, it was really great. And the, just really recent, I don't know, you know, an HBO or something like that. But even Bruce Springsteen had to struggle like hell. You know, these albums, they could just flow. You know, they were, they do, you know, months and months, trying to get something

right. You know, and before they finally got it together. You know, so that was very encouraging. Yeah, that's, it was good for him. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's good to see all of those things. When you, at the very, I listened to that. So I listened to government cheese on audio book. I had to drive the Fresno and back the same day for, for Memorial, my college

from close past away. So I had eight hours in the car. So I listened to it literally over the course of a day. And, and at the very end, as you conclude the book, when the book's kind of done, then you do a little kind of riff. Like, it's not, doesn't feel written or scripted. And you're just like, I hope you guys liked it and got

like something out of this. But then you, you ended like, I, I, I was tearing up. Like, I just felt very heartfelt. And you said, you know, I hope this is instructive and helpful on your journey, you know. And you end the book with this word journey. And I immediately thought like, what would Robert McKee think about that? Because he has such a problem with this

idea of life being a journey. And you, you, and I would agree with you. Like, I think life is a journey. And I think that we're all on some, you know, you, you can, you can look at your life and, and, and lay on top of it that kind of heroes journey architecture of it. And on some level, we're all living a version of that. I

think so. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and that is a journey. So like, yeah. Have you had debates with Robert about this? Like, no, I was surprised when he said that. Yeah. Really? Cause I thought that this, I would have said his teachings are really all about it. Sure. You know, so yeah. No, I haven't had. What is that about that? I don't know. He really bristles at

that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. He's also a believer. I have a, a decent agreement with him about talent. You know, where he says like talent is everything. You know, and I say, this bullshit. Yeah. So I don't know. He thinks I'm crazy. And I think he's over. Yeah. No, it's great. Like I, I think like a podcast between the two of you guys, I'd be

like fascinating, right? Just on like which one of us would lead it? Well, I don't know. I mean, I just think there's something. Yeah, like his thing is, I do these seminars and all these Yahoo show up. And like, my job is to weed them out and disabuse them. Of like any kind of, you know, career glory that they're, they're, they're fantasizing about because it's hard,

right. And you can, if you're going to do it, you got to be fully committed. And I think you would agree on the fully committed part. Yeah. But I think where you, you differ is you have kind of a sweeter sense of ability and, and, and a hopefulness and an optimism that, you know, we all have something here to express. And we should be, it's not

indulgent to, you know, go on that journey of self exploration. And maybe it doesn't land you in Hollywood writing screenplays that you sell. But that's beside the point because it's a worthy. That is a worthy, you know, investment of your time for yourself. Yeah. That's exactly how I feel. So I have more, I have compassion for the struggling person. Yeah. He does. He does. He's, he's

got a lot of work to do with, you know, that was me forever. Yeah. And he's like, don't waste my time. Like if you, if you had shown up in Robert's seminar, we know, you were multiple times. Oh, you did. Oh, yeah. And he didn't, he didn't like sort of make you feel so terrible about yourself that you were going to quit. And just because he

was giving out such great information. And he was so passionate about, you know, like Paul Rink, my other mentor. Mm hmm. You know, the thing about Robert McKee that's so powerful is that he really believes in writing. You know, you know, a lot of people might today might say, well, it gives it shit. You know, somebody wrote some books on a novel. We're never going to

read it, right? But he believes, you know, you've got a gift. You got to give it to the world. And you got to give it to absolutely the best you can possibly do and not blow it off. And anyway. And that's very inspiring. He concludes his, you know, seminars with that kind of thought. You know, like go forth, sons of bitches, you know, and do something

good. Were you, did you go to the seminars when you were in the middle of the year? You were in Hollywood, right? Yeah, I did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they cost a hundred bucks. Yeah. Um, they're still pretty cheap. It like a thousand. Really? Well, he's done now though. Four days. Right? Yeah. But I think this podcast is going to go up right around the same

time as a, because we recorded that one with with Robert a while back. Yeah. These are going to go up kind of around each other. Huh. Um, which will be interesting. Yeah. It will be interesting. Um, but during this period of time in which you're, you're a screenwriter, like you have some success, you hook up with this guy. You call him Stanley. But what I got

out of reading that part of the book is you also learned a lot about structure and form and the idea of like kind of mixing different influences and genres. He's like, what's this going to be this movie meets this movie. And we're going to blend these things to, you know, together. And we're going to create something unique out of that. And just like the banging out

of scripts and like kind of process of of being a writer, like made you a stronger writer. And perhaps the idea of bag of dance being like the Bhagavad Gita and golf coming together would not have occurred without, you know, the kind of apprenticeship with this guy who, yeah, I feel like it was a great apprenticeship where I really learned so much. And, uh, yeah, I

have nothing but gratitude for that period. Right. And my wrong just think or to say that there's a part of me that wishes that that wants to see you kind of flex your muscle in the script. And right, I mean, if you're looking for the art in that whole gap, you can show me, like, what sort of music that you're doing. Yeah. You know. Because, you

know, when you look at the In The Heavy, you can see, I talked about the, you know, all that art, which I mean, Right. And I kind of described it as. And this guy as a student is you through your character. I was, yeah. Even think about. Otherwise, the writer is always going to be fired and replaced. And, you know, it's just in the nature of

movie business. What is it that you, you want people to get out of government cheese? I mean, I think I know, but like you tell me what you think. I, I, I hope that somebody that's feels lost and struggling and like, when is this tunnel? When do I get out of this tunnel that they'll read government cheese and say, Pressfield story is exactly like mine. You

know, maybe then, you know, and it's just, it's the hero's journey. It's the process. And, you know, be patient. Yeah. You know, don't lose heart. So I hope it's an inspiration to, to people a little bit. Yeah. I mean, I, I think it, I think it certainly is that. I mean, I think it really, you know, in the tunnel of like how long it, you know,

how long you were in the tunnel. It's certainly, you're like, Oh my God. Like how this guy's still driving a truck. It's inspirational in that there were so many instances in which I feel like a normal person would have just given up, you know, and the fact that you stayed in it even while that typewriter was hidden for so long. It was lurking, you know, in

the back of your mind, obviously, and, you know, pulling on your soul and, and, you know, you had this yearning that you couldn't shake. And, you know, the fact that it took as long as it took is, is a story about it takes what it takes. Yeah. You know, yeah. What boy can I say? Yeah. I mean, like I said, it's like swimming in the ocean.

Like what's the alternative? Yeah. You stop and you go to the end. And, and there's no, there's no plan B. You're like, this is, I'm in it. You're in it, right? And so, if anything that might be intimidating, for people that are like, do you have to be in it in the way that like Stephen is in it or wasn't it or thinks about being in

it? But you do, right? I mean, hopefully most people who don't have to pay the dues as much as I did. But, but you do have to learn, right? If you were going to be a brain surgeon or a concert pianist, you would know that you have a certain apprenticeship ahead of you, a certain education you have to have. Skills you have to acquire. But a

lot of times in the arts, particularly in these days where, you know, you can do a sex tape and, you know, you're famous, you think, oh, there's a hack and I'll do that. So, but it's not true. You have to learn the game, you know? Yeah. Well, it is an interesting and kind of disorienting time in that regard because creative product, you know, it's called content.

I hate that. Is essentially, you know, ephemeral, like it comes and goes. Yeah. And, and that applies to books as well. Like we're, you know, here we get like every, like every new book in the self-help kind of whatever, like it arrives here. Right? And so you get, we get, after getting, like 10, 20 books a week. Yeah. And then you never hear, you know, hear

from these, some of them are actually New York Times best sellers or they came, but then a week later, you don't know. You start to have like, I've become a little cynical about it. Like this matter, it's so hard to write a book and these books come and like, and I'm somebody who should care about all these books. And even I'm looking at it like, okay,

so this guy's got the answer this week. And I should read this book. And there's so many, you know, movies and television shows coming out all the time that you can't stay on top of it. And what is worthy of that tug on the soul that's going to be so painful that's going to give you some crap. You know, with the resistance all of that. Like

this, but I've got to have to give you props for finding ultra. That was one, that was a book that stood out and will last, you know, and, you know, God bless you for doing it. You know, that came out of your soul, you know, and that came through hard work and everything. But that's, that's a real story. That's a, that's a real hero's journey if

there ever was one. Well, I'm sure, you know, I take my head off to you for that. Yeah, thanks. But, but then, you know, that, that was quickly followed by, you know, the resistance, you know, basically doing pushups in the dark. And now it's like, well, you can't write a book like that again. Or you already told your story. What else you have left to say,

like all of that kind of stuff, right? So I'm doing war with that a little bit at the moment. I think I've, I think I have an idea though. I'm not ready to talk about it publicly, but I'm going to share it with you when we're done here. Okay. Great. Yeah. I can, I can tell you right now before you say a word, that's the idea

you should do it. Yeah. Before you say, I just tell by the look on your face. Yeah. I know. Because I can see the resistance rating off you, but I can also see the dream. I can see it. You don't have to tell me the idea. I know. And I'm, and I'm saying this with a thousand percent certainty, do it. You know, and do it with

the same, you know, confidence, or I hope you had confidence while you're doing finding ultra. But let me ask you this, is it completely different from that? Yes. Okay. That's a great sign. That's where it should be. Yeah. I can see it right. Yeah. I'll just tell you what's going on in my, what's going on in my head? Yeah. So in my mind, I'm like, Oh,

shit. Like this is being recorded. Now if I don't do it, I'm going to really feel bad. And I'm going to feel like I let Stephen down. And I don't want to let Stephen down. And don't let me do. Yeah. But don't let yourself know. But this is great, Rich, because it's really great for me. To see that you've got that, you know, that flame there,

that little, that little fetish that's kind of growing. You know, we've got a little toenail now. It's, you know, it's a, it's, yeah, it might only be two or three cells, right? But, you know, it sounds like it's a little bigger than that to me. But, uh, yeah, actually, I, I feel excited about this in a way that I haven't felt in a long time. And

I feel like I'm onto something, but the resistance is very strong. And so the only way that I can do better is to battle with that resistance is to really lower the stakes as much as possible. And, and like Seth Godin's been helpful with this. Like, so it's really like right now, it's really just about like freeform journaling and not being judgmental about anything to just

get to just build a little bit of momentum. So, you know, two cells go to four cells or whatever. I think that's exactly right. And I think momentum is really crucial and important as we touched on before. Like I just know when I have momentum, then you're in a self-perpetual situation where the flow comes easier. But if you're stop and start and all of that, it

becomes impossible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're trying to respect that. You've, anyway, I had the experience, you know, both in finding ultra and in athletics, you know, of, of showing up every day and rolling the P every day. So, you know, I think I know how to roll the P, but I've had a really hard time figuring out what P to roll in the right. In

the writing game and I took, you know, it's been 10 years, honestly. So, and then I can beat myself up about that. Yeah. That's resistance to you. Just have to sort of dismiss that. I know. And remember, like the, the measure of self-doubt is the measure of how great the idea is. Right. So, the more self-doubt you have, the better the idea is. Right. The more

is it true though? Is that always true though? It's always true. It's always true. Because it's plausible that you have a really bad idea. And that self-doubt is like, yeah, you really shouldn't looking in your eyes that that's not one of them. This is not, this is not that. All right. We've even, here's one accountability part of it. Yeah. Now, please, somebody taught me this. That

to start with when you're writing a thing with the first thought, the first sentence is, and the bad version of this is, colon, and then start. That's a good trick. Yeah. Yeah. And just, you know, in other words, it's like Seth lowering expectations. Yeah. You know, it doesn't have to be brilliant. Just get something down. Yeah. And if I can help you in any way, other

than reading, I will count on me as any kind of a resource. I appreciate that. You know, Seth said the same thing to me and I feel like, wow. Like those are the best mentors anybody could possibly ever dream of, you know, to say, I'm happy to like, you know, give you feedback or whatever. It's incredible. So again, then it's like, well, if I don't do

this, then that's a massive betrayal of the muse, I think. Or you know, or you will do it. Or myself. You will do it. You know, it's a dragon. All the excuses. So this is great. I'm very happy to hear this, Rich. Yeah. I know that there's a, it's so great to have that thing growing in you. What are, what's better than that? I know. But

it's also, you know, how hard it's going to be, right? And you're like, I'm trying to run five. I'm going to welcome this. Yeah. You know, um, thank you. I appreciate that. Um, has your routine remained the same. I know that like, you know, your physical fitness routine is really important. You get up really early in the morning. And you kind of have like, this is

how you do it. And is that, does that, has that evolved at all? Or it has evolved. Yeah. You know, I, I, I wasn't always doing physical stuff. First thing in the morning. And, and these days, um, starting this new publishing company, that takes a lot of time. Even, even though Diana, yeah, it's all the work. Uh, so I've have to sort of, um, find a

couple of hours a day. Like today, I'm not doing any work. You know, um, I'm dedicated. Yeah. There's other things. There's other stuff and Christmas, you know, but, um, but I, I, I, I do still absolutely believe you got to keep that moment. I'm going, even if it's only a little bit. So it's harder. It's harder for me to find. Mm-hmm. You know, there's the time

in the, in government cheese where I talk about when I was working on that book and I just was in this little house, yeah, by myself. And I had nothing. I know girlfriend, no radio and cat, though. I had a cat, but the cat's quiet, you know, but I thought to myself, this is hard enough when I have 24 hours a day. What's it going to

be like if I get to a place where I have other things going on? How am I going to focus? Um, and so I'm sort of, that's the way it's been since then, you know, where you do have a life, a little bit of a life anyway. Um, you've got a lot of a life, but you, you can find the time just like finding time to

train, you know, and that's kind of the way it is for me. I sure have to, I have to make sure I get it in each day, you know, because otherwise, no good, you know, yeah. So, so, so it's a consistent metronome of like 10 to one or whatever it is. Yeah. Something like, um, but do you have, do you then, like, when you're getting close

to the finish, do you go down the rabbit hole and disappear or go off to some, you know, some cabin or hotel room for, you know, six day straight or whatever to like take it across the finish line or you have to be able to maintain some kind of balance. I haven't done that, but I like that idea. I've heard that. But do that. Yeah. Because

again, at the, at the, at the end of the day, the end of a project resistance gets way, way, way, way bigger. So you got to raise your intensity to combat that. So I understand absolutely going to a cabin or something like that. Yeah. I don't know. I just, I look at the consistency and then kind of balanced, um, equilibrium, like equanimity with which you do

it. And I think of Ryan also in the way that he does it. I don't know, man, my life is like, uh, always like, you know, no matter what I try to do to like, you know, kind of, um, flatten the curve. I'm between the highs and the lows. Like I, I'm always like surfing some kind of insane, you know, but I mean, when you train,

like, when you go out to run the trail or whatever it is, I'm not to be consistent. Right. You, you're on a program or whatever. Yeah. And you set a goal. And that time is like a sacred time for you. Right. I mean, you're block everything out. Right. And you're not, you don't have your iPhone on or anything like that. So same sort of thing. Right.

Yeah. I think, I think it's an interesting conversation. Around like structure, you create, you have your goal, like, okay, you're, you're writing this book. It needs to be done by this date or you're training for this race. And so you establish a program and parameters and like I show up every day. And these are the things that I do to move me towards that goal. And

those are very practical real world kind of considerations in order to achieve the thing that you've set out to achieve. How do you balance that against the mystical dancing with the muse and not being attached to that? Outcome and yes, I have a goal, but I have to be, I have to be in surrender also. Like I have to be open and not rigid and how

I'm thinking about all of this. Like that. There is attention there. Right. That I think is delicate. And I'm interested in how that operates for you. There is attention. But it does work amazingly enough that you can go into that office, close the door, start to work. And very soon. Good stuff will happen. It might not be like thunderbolts of inspiration, but you'll be, you'll get

into, I mean, you must have felt this was finding ultra because it was so good. You know, when you're describing, you know, the race or you're swimming in your light ray, you know, blow your brains out because it's so hard. You know, can I keep, you know, they're, you were in a flow of some sort, right? You're describing that something that happened. And so it, the

two things really work. Absolutely together, the sort of structured aspect of it and the kind of otherworldly stuff. They, they absolutely, right, they have to, well, they have to be in balance with each other, right? Because any too much of any of either of those will tip it off its balance. Yeah. Right. But I would imagine, I'm not a meditator, but I would imagine that when

you sit to meditate, it's sort of a structured thing. Right? Okay. I'm going in this room, locking into or but once you're, you get to that state that then your, your mind is empty. Or wherever it is you are in a kind of another, another place, another spiritual, mental, whatever place. And then when it bell rings, you go out and make dinner. Yeah. How come you

don't meditate? I consider my writing as meditation. Yeah. You know, I think meditation is qualitatively different from that. I do. I think you would get a lot out of real meditation practice. Yeah. Maybe I'll do that. You're starting to get sheepish. I think you would, no, I think you would get, I think you would get a lot out of it. I think it, just having awareness

of how your consciousness operates, I think, could also act as possibly expanding the portal to the, to the unconscious mind or to the, to the muse, right? Could be. I don't know. You're not going to commit to that. What's next? What are you working on now? Are you not talking about it? Are you like, Seth is like, don't talk, yeah, don't talk about it. I am

working on another thing. And what is, what is talking me through the thinking process around, not sharing what you're working like, like, the, like, the sacredness of, of protecting it in that way. It's just bad luck to talk about it somehow. I mean, maybe I, you know, him and me should talk about that, right? That the worst thing you can do is to start telling other

people what you're working on. Like it sort of lets the air out of the balloon. And I don't know, I'm sure superstitious. Yeah, I just feel like it may not going to tell you what I'm working on now. Well, that jinx it. Yeah. Okay. That I certainly, I mean, might not do rail it. But it's certainly not going to do any good. I don't know what

to do with that. I got to think about that. I, I'm interested in how ambition plays into all of this. I mean, obviously, you know, you, you had to have ambition, perhaps an outsized ambition to kind of weather the many years of setbacks and kind of not succeeding, you know, on the level that you, that you felt like you were capable of. How does that, like,

do you feel satisfied with your career? Like when you write books, you're just on to the next one. Obviously, you want them to do well. But like, where does the ambition piece come in? Does it derail you? Are you at peace with it? Like, I mean, I'm not sure if I'm going to do that. Do you care about how the world receives your work or is

it really the work for the work itself? I do, but, but I've almost given up on it, Rich, you know, because it's like, you know, you never know what work, what particular book is going to get a positive response or what's going to get in, you know, and I really have tried to stop. I mean, you can't help but hope for something good to happen. Yeah.

But, you know, like in Hollywood, you know, I mean, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. In Hollywood, you know, you work on it, script, you wear nothing happens, right? You can't say, you know, you're so used to things going out there and sinking without a trace, that it's just, if I can just have enough juice left to do the next

one, and just keep going on. And I feel like that's really all I'm trying to do is just keep. And anything beyond that is just a bonus. Yeah, it's a bonus. Yeah. And is that part of the, the impetus in creating this publishing company? No, that's really more about, um, my books that are about writing the War of Art and those other ones can be self-published.

You know, they don't need a publicist. In fact, I can't even find a publisher. They don't even want them. You know, so, um, I do want to have a, uh, a platform that I can, I don't have to worry about selling it to Harper Collins or anything like that. So other books, fiction or anything like that, then you do have to find a real publisher. So

that's a problem. So the purpose of it is just for releasing your own books or you can publish other people's books as well. Just my own, just your own books. And I know, you know, and how many, how many have you published under your own imprint then? Well, if you go back to the War of Art, you know, when I had a little publishing company called

Black Irish with my partner Sean, right? And I think, I think it was like nine books or something like that that we did there. And then, uh, two on this new one so far, government cheese being the second one. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting in this age of, uh, removing the gatekeepers, you know, it's, it's empowering for you to own your own content and control it. And

when, you know, the majority of people buy their books on Amazon. Uh, why should you pay a publishing house and outsized, you know, percentage of the profits on that. But the other thing, Rich, is that in all honesty, for a lot of these stuff, a books post War of Art, I can't find a publisher. Really? You know, I mean, how many but War of Art still

sells, like Crazy, right? Like, yeah, people would like, they would like to buy that. Yeah. But others, no, you know, I think, uh, this must be true for other writers. I think a lot of times people think, oh, you've had a book or this or that. So you can sell anything. Not true. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. I can't even get an agent. You know, I

mean, it's like. You know that's crazy to me. Yeah, that's crazy to me. I mean, it is is going the way of the movie studios like to get to get like the, you know, kind of the advance and all of that. You have to thread a very fine needle and it has to be a book that, you know, hits all these certain types of marks, which

makes, you know, makes more sense for people to be self-publishing. Yeah. And I think it's interesting. You look at like David Goggins, I think he's the most successful self-published book of all time. Like, is that right? I believe he's the least shallow bomb I like. I don't think so. Like four million copies of his first book or something like that. I mean, I don't think anybody

prior to that has ever sold that many copies of a self-published book, which I think, you know, all the rules around like the New York Times best seller list and, you know, self-published books being in bookstores and all of that. I feel like, you know, his success upends or challenges a lot of those rules and probably opens the door for people like yourself and other people

who are writing great books. And doing it their way to, you know, have a different kind of life. Maybe. I mean, I still, I still don't understand the economics of mainstream publishing, how they can make money, you know. I think it one book. I think it's like the one book that supports all the other books. I think that's true. One book sells 10 million and then

they can afford to have 1500 books. It's nothing. Right. I guess it would be like the studio that puts out, you know, avatar or the market. So making like 300, you know, movies a year that cost a million dollars or that nobody goes and sees. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. I don't know. But you can just write your books and put them out. Right. Which has to

be cool. But my expectations are so low. That's another part of it. But here's the thing. See how little, you know, really. Listen. All this like, you know, part of me feels like you need to go to therapy. Like if you're still having a whole new, you know, you know, you know, you know, you're just having all this negative self talk with all the wonderful books

that you've put out and all the, you know, people that you've helped and and, and, you know, creative careers that you've helped spawn. Like I want you to be telling yourself good things about your capability. Yeah. And your skill. Right. But you know, how much is resistance and how much is like just bullshit that you could pershadow. Well. I mean, you know, let's talk. Let me

tell you this. You know, your, you know, the War of Art and Turning Pro were so instrumental in my life that they are that like your work has, you know, infused my life and my work, like finding ultra is, is like your part of that book, right. And you're part of this podcast, like in the collective consciousness idea that we were talking about earlier, like your

essence is in extractable from like my career and my creative life and like the things that I've put out. Into the world. And I'm certainly not alone in that regard. There's lots of people who would, you know, tell you their version of what I just shared with you, which has to be incredibly, you know, affirming, right? That's true. You can hear that. And you can hear

you can hear that. And like, yeah. And so I don't blow that off. No, it's real. And it's huge. And it's like a huge honor for me not to just have you here, but to like have you in my life. Like that's something I like talk about. The mystery of the universe. And like the idea that one day, like I would get to meet you. And

I would, I could consider you a friend. Like that was just beyond anything I could have ever imagined. And I feel the same way. So there you have it. This is, this is, yeah. This is, you know, resistance go fuck yourself. And, you know, because we're, we're dancing with the mystical energies over here because it doesn't make sense on paper. And all the decisions that I

made, you know, when I was toiling away doing my version of, of you driving a truck, there's no sense when you're in that it's, it's, there's no sense that that's leading anywhere. Absolutely. Yes. Other than some kind of deep down thing, like I got to keep doing this or, you know, I know that this is, this is somehow and some weird way, going to lead me

to where I want to go. Yeah. And you stay in it. Yeah. I just did a blog post like today or something or a couple of days ago that says something like the hero's journey is enacted in a benited state. And I think that's absolutely true. And then somehow it's absolutely essential. It's like if you weren't in the benited state, you wouldn't be on the hero's

journey. It's somehow the fact that you that we're in denial of some truth. That and that's what set us on this hero's journey course or this period in the wilderness course is essential that we're in denial. So we can't see it. Right. We're, we're efficient water. We just don't see it. It's like when you finally can see it, then you come out of it, you know,

or you maybe you come out of it and then you can see it finally. Yeah. I don't know why that's true, but I think it is true. Yeah. And and in retrospect looking back many years later, you're like, of course, it's very clear. You know, why can't, why can't that can't that plants be clear, you know, looking forward, but you know, it's not, it's not break,

it's rigged against that is not wired that way, right? Which sucks. But that's the way it is, right? Yeah, from some, it seems to be a lot of the universe. I don't know why. I don't know, man. I don't know, man. Well, maybe, you know, we can round this out with just a, you know, a few more laws of the universe for the person who is,

you know, grappling with resistance or perhaps finds that finds themselves, you know, lost in the lost in the forest right now and and can't see their way forward because they're not far enough down the way to have that 2020 rear view vision. So. So. I've got to speak to the person who's, who's out there like, I'm doing battle with resistance, but I can't see like, this

is, I need to quit. You know what? I saw actually a great thing. I don't know if you've ever, do you ever see Anthony Hopkins when he's on Instagram? He has like, I love him on Instagram. He's great. Is he? I mean, he's so authentic. Yeah. And this, it was a clip. I think he was on Tom's talk show or something like that. And they asked

him this exact thing. You know, what, what, what's the word you get? Because he's the elder statesman of elder statesman. Sure. And he said, you know, I wish I could do the accident. He said, you know, just keep going, you know, just keep going, keep putting one foot in front of the other, because everything is going to work out in the end, you know, and I

thought, and it was so authentic coming from my side. He's absolutely right. That's the, again, it's just like swimming in the ocean. You just got to keep going because the alternative is, you know, you drown. So I, that that will be the truth. Just keep going. There's no, there's no. There's no plan B. Yeah. All right. Man. I love it. Well, always good to talk to

you. I, you know, can't say enough. Yeah. This is great. I appreciate you. Yeah. And the work that you do and the, you know, inspiration and that you share with the world. I think it's like, you know, it's a true act of service. Well, thank you. And I'm so happy to hear that you've got something percolating that is causing you. I'm glad you to have night.

Yeah. But I'm really divided on whether I can talk to you about it now. I have to think about it. You know, I'm happy, and I'll seriously, I'm happy to talk about it, but I don't need to talk about it. I don't need to hear it. I've already decided. I know what I'm willing to share with you. We'll do it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Great deal.

Anytime. It's a deal. All right. Man. Right now you probably have another book coming out in another month. You can, you're always welcome. Let's have breakfast soon, too. Please. Okay. Let's do it. But not at that place. Yeah. We got to rail us. We got to find another. All right. Thanks, buddy. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation.

To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, I hope you enjoyed the conversation. And if you want to see more information, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive as well as podcast merch, my books, finding ultra, voicing change and the plant power way, as well as the plant power meal planter at meals.ritroll.com.

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for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced in engineered by Jason Camillo. With additional audio engineering by Kale Curtis, the video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director Dan Drake portraits by David Greenberg,

graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Celice, Dan Drake and AJ Akpote. Thank you, Georgia, waley for copywriting and website management. And of course our theme music was created by Tyler Piot, Trapper, Piot and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support, see you back here soon. Peace, plants. Namaste. Hi, my bro. Nice to see you again. We just met at bed in Nebraska last

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