Seth Godin On Creativity, Embracing Failure & Spre

The Rich Roll Podcast. Everybody has a brand or they are invisible. Your brand is the story people tell themselves about you and the expectations they have of what you're going to be like when you walk in the room. When it comes to creativity, marketing, business, speaking, writing and how to interpret the world, few names are as influential as that of today's guest, Seth Godin. If you

are pizza lover and you think about the great pizza places in the United States, none of them are full service restaurants with big menus. You have to say this is what I do. You can say, and and and and because then you have an excuse for every thing being sort of average. An absolute giant in the book publishing and marketing worlds is quite literally in the

marketing hall of fame. Seth is the author of more than 19 international bestsellers. He's an entrepreneur, a speaker, a climate activist, and the solo contributor to his incredibly popular daily blog, which he's been writing every single day since 2005. But when asked, Seth considers himself as a teacher, a teacher. Through his work, including books like tribes, purple cow, linchpin, the dip, and this is marketing, Seth

seeks to turn people's lights on, inspire them into action, and teach them how to level up. And in this conversation, he certainly delivers on that endeavor. So I had 20 bestsellers in a row, and not one of them has sold to more than 1% of the US population. Which means that 99% of the US population said, nah, not interested. No idea who you are. See ya.

That's not failure. That's success. We discussed navigating creative blocks, the distinction between marketing and advertising. We talk about the pitfalls of modern education, and his most recent book, The Carbon Almanac, which is designed to be a one-stop shop on everything we know, have known, and potentially will know about global climate change. The book uses cartoons, quotes, tables, illustrations, and articles to gather, display, and explain all

the relevant facts on carbon's impact on our world, as simply and as comprehensively as possible, all within optimistic lens on the plausibility of positive change. What we've been doing for 110 years is selling carbon-based energy way cheaper than we should. We forgot to count how much it really costs. I got a couple more things I would very much like to mention before we dig into this

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It was an absolute dream to have Seth in the studio. I've looked up to this man for a very long time. And I think you're going to be really inspired by our exchange. So this is me and the great Seth Goden. It's such an honor and a pleasure to have you here today. I've been looking forward to this for a very long time. And on the

subject of too many things to talk about, this is the challenge with you, Mr. Seth Goden. You are truly such a polymath and wise on so many topics with this breadth of expertise that spans a myriad of disciplines that it's very difficult to choose which thread to pull. And I have deemed this condition, this disease, polymath induced podcast host paralysis. Well, I'd be in the DSM

for a bit. To be clear, I don't have that much expertise, but I'm good at asking questions about the way things work. I think that's a very humble answer because I do think that you are very wise across so many disciplines. And I was reflecting on the drive over here today about the fact that, I think this is a good way to launch in, that are

email, I don't know if you remember this, but our email correspondence about trying to make this happen dates back many years through a mutual friend Matt Frazier who introduced us many years ago. And you said, listen, when you're in New York, I'm happy to do the podcast, come up to my home in Hastings on Hudson, right? And I did not take you up on that offer.

This is like a heuristic or a rule. Like if you really want to have like as you will get on the train from Manhattan and come up. And I did not do that. And the story that I've told myself about that, because I've reflected back on that many times is that I was too busy. I had a packed schedule. I just couldn't. So I was rooted

out in your rule, but that's not really the truth. I think the truth is that I was frightened by the prospect of meeting you. I was intimidated. You're somebody I hold in such high regard. And I did not feel up to the task. I was succumbing to insecurity and perhaps a sense of perfectionism paralysis that prevented me from rising to that challenge. I'm so sorry. That

only wasn't my intent. I show it's all in my head. Well, but it's all in all of our heads. And it's my loss because we could have had two podcasts instead of one. This is true. But I also believe that these things happen when they're meant to happen. And I now feel armed and ready. Okay. That maybe I didn't back then. But I think that that

subject of of feeling paralyzed or not feeling up to the task with respect to a creative expression, very much falls in the focus of many of the things that you pontificate on so eloquently. So I don't know that that's a question, but perhaps a launching point. It's an epidemic. So I wanted the story. I wanted to start by telling you happened to me a couple of

days ago. I was in San Clementi, seeing a friend and got up at six o'clock in the morning to go for a swim. And I almost drowned. I am a good swimmer, but I have never experienced the current the way that I did. And it was this moment of it doesn't matter whether I'm swimming with 10 people or no people. There's nobody who's going to help

me but me. And this moment of this might be my last thing. What do I want to do right now? And there's a lot of things left to be done. There's a lot of work that I'm doing. I've worked left to be done, people to connect with ideas to share. And I just took a deep breath and moored in barely. And I think it's worth talking

about that because there's a huge difference between drowning off the coast of San Clementi and putting up a blog post that isn't perfect. Or connecting with a customer or a friend in a way that you wish you could do it differently the next time. And yet we've been pushed to make everything a matter of life or death. When there aren't that many things that I'm going

to do, I'm going to do it. And then there are actually matters of life. So in that moment of clarity when you felt death being visited upon you, you had this sense that there was much left to do and to kind of get out of your own way as somebody who's very good at getting out of their own way. It was extraordinary how quickly all the

imposter syndrome stuff goes away. Because like I'm saying they're saying, well, I can't swim nearly as well. It's rich, but it didn't matter. Because I wasn't in a race with you. Trying to get back to shore. And in that moment, you become the best version of yourself, which is usually good enough. Yeah. On the topic of creative expression, the titans that come to mind are people

like Julia Cameron who wrote the artist's way, Stephen Pressfield, Robert McKee, who I just had in here, who was a hoot. Now Rick Rubin, have you read his new? I was a first person to be defeated. Oh, you were. I got an early copy of it because I was doing an event with him, a Google event with him, a fireside, and read that book. And was

just deeply moved by that. I think it's, you know, soon to be as it is released into the world among the great books on creative expression. And I would consider your work very much in that regard as well. And I would be remiss on a very selfish level to not, you know, run a little bit of an experiment on my own creative blocks as somebody who

isn't the business of creative expression. Really the last real book that I wrote was in 2012. And there is an argument to be made that all of this, the beautiful studio and the podcast and all of it is a massive elaborate distraction. And justification or rationalization for not getting up and writing every day. And this is my Mount Everest that I'm determined to conquer in the

upcoming year. And I think what's interesting about it is that, you know, reflecting on my own boundaries as being somewhat porous and very much negotiable, I have a self awareness around it. And I'm aware that these habits will not change without a system change. And yet despite that self awareness and the parlance of recovery, like self awareness will avail you nothing. If the action that that

that moves the needle. And in my experience, as somebody who's undergone, you know, dramatic changes over the course of my life, those changes are generally motivated by pain when I feel backed into a corner. And the pain of my current situation finally tips over and exceeds the fear of that change. Well, that last part's good. I want to throw a monkey wrench in just a little

bit, maybe for our listeners and not for you. I think Stephen, I would agree on this. Just because there's resistance doesn't mean that you are feeling resistance about is important. And what you have been doing for the last 10 years is narrating a journey for millions of people. You haven't been hiding, working at a Babati shop. You have been showing up with a unique voice for

people who need to hear it in a medium that didn't exist 25 years ago. And just because books have been around for 500 years. And there's a particular pain that comes from writing one because of the prusty and overhead that goes with it doesn't mean that you will serve the people you seek to serve better by writing a book. Now, if it turns out that the

conditions that you need to write a book will actually escalate your thinking in ways that can lead you to where you want to go, then I'm all in. And I would love to help you. But it could be that this is resistance bothering you pretending to be resistance, saying you're a failure because you haven't written a book, go write a book. But that's actually keeping you.

From pioneering a new kind of Netflix talk show or whatever it is that's going to let you do your unique work. So I don't know the answer to that. Yeah. No, I mean, it's a it's a valid observation. I think that perhaps I hang my hat on this idea of where being a published author sits in the hierarchy of influence. And there is something about that

that I think is real. I think it's being challenged and fractured. It's a really. Yeah. It's not what it used to be. But I do think that fundamentally I feel like I am a writer and I haven't served that muse inside of me. And I feel like it's a function of like getting honest with myself and trying to dissect what are the externalities, those external kind

of social pressures that I feel to live up to a certain standard versus what is the best use of my time and energy. And it is true that this podcast reaches more people than any book that I am going to write on a weekly basis. So from that perspective, there's no reason to write a book because I'm already communicating with more people. If that is an

important like variable in that equation. But books, as you know, with your love of books, stand the test of time. And there is something about that three dimensional thing that exists in the world that I think is important and timeless and hopefully will remain so. Yeah. So thank you for team up. First, the discussion about the marathon, which is the difference between people who run 20

and 26 miles isn't physical condition. It is simply figure out where to put the tired. That the people who finish figure out where to put the tired and the people who don't don't. Because if you made it to 20, you could make it to 26. And you can't go to a trainer and say, please train me to run a marathon without getting tired. It's not an

option. So if you're going to do important work as a writer, you can't say, I wanted to do important work as a writer, but not feel any of the feelings that come from doing important work. Because that's the deal. That's why writing is worth doing. But that doesn't mean you have to do it. The way Ernest Hemingway would do it. And there are lots of ways

to create the conditions for you to have a place where the best work is a vote. And so I've coached a lot of friends to writing books, some of which have done very well. The first rule is you can't become attached to the outcome. The publishing is a weird business that's more of a hobby. And it has all these signals in it that don't make sense.

Great books. Don't sell that well. Lousey books sell a lot of copies. Good people spend their lives promoting books. That's not what you need to do. So we're not going to get attached to whether it's a best seller. We're going to get focused on this book, be what I want it to be. But then the second part of it is, getting really clear about who's it

for and what's it for. Who exactly are we seeking to change? And if you're not clear about that, you're going to write a mediocre book, no matter what it is. But you can visualize the emotional state, the fears, the dreams, the desires, the person you're seeking to serve in the book, because much more practical for you to be able to say, this works and this doesn't.

And then the last thing comes from Isaac Asimov, who I used to work with when I was a kid and he was old. He invented the idea of robots. He was one of the most successful science fiction authors ever. And Isaac published 400 books in his lifetime. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. And I'm sitting in his apartment near Lincoln Center in New York. And I said, so Isaac, he

had a pretty big ego. He liked when I said things like, you've written some of the most important books of all time. And you've done 400 books. How did you do that? And he walks me over to this little tiny table with a manual type of writer on it. And he says, what I do is I wake up at the end of the morning and I

walk over to this typewriter and I type from 630 to noon every day. And it doesn't matter if it's good, I just have to type. And that thinking, tricked us subconscious into typing good stuff because it feels really stupid to sit there and type bad stuff. And so what I say to people in the 2020s is, you don't need a manual typewriter. You need a recorder.

And then you need to find a human being you want to teach something to. And go for a walk with them and record you for an hour telling them what they need to know. Then get a transcribed and start with that. Because you can make that better. But that just did the hard part, which is you got to overline pages now off the table. Correct. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, the idea of creating that non-negotiable and then lowering the stakes seems to be the path forward. But taking a step back from that, it's really all about boundaries and knowing how to say no to protect your years. And this is something I know that you've thought about deeply that you practice and you teach to so many people. So talk a little bit about

how you create those rules around the things that are important in your life. And then maybe as background to that, how did you figure out what was important to you? So if you are pizza lover and you think about the great pizza places, in the United States, none of them are full service restaurants with big menus. They make a thing and they make it the best

they can make it. Because it must be done with care or it becomes mediocre. And we have created an entire generation of wandering generalities, as Ziggs would say, instead of meaningful specifics. And to be a meaningful specific, you have to say, this is what I do. You can say, and and and and and because then you have an excuse for everything being sort of average. And

if you're slogan is you can pick anyone and where anyone, then someone else is going to win. You want to be in and of yourself, the one and only version of that. So I think that's a universal law. I think that if somebody is more focused than you, they're going to put it more cycles than you. And they're going to learn more than you. And inevitably,

they're going to become better than you when you have enough competitors. So with that said, you got to say, well, the only way that's going to happen is if I say no to all sorts of attractive things. So in my case, as somebody who has a certain kind of willpower, it means no Twitter, no Instagram, no Facebook, no LinkedIn, almost no travel. There are all these

things I don't do. Because I don't want to reconsider every time. Because it would be a huge number of cycles to say, oh, but this one's really special. I should open the door and think about that one again. But is this a function of not wanting to fall into the kind of pleasure trap of scrolling? Or is it because you don't want to be influenced by

what other people are saying? I'm not reading them, but I'm also not writing on those platforms. So when Twitter came along, it was early days I saw it. I said, I could probably have a lot of people following me on Twitter. Yeah. But if I got good at Twitter, I would have to become mediocre blogging. So I don't want to do that. I want to be

really good at the thing I do and not do the other things. So that's part A. And yes, as you pointed out, listening to anonymous trolls makes nobody better. I've never met an author who said I read all my one-star reviews on Amazon and now I'm a better writer. So 11 years ago, I stopped reading my reviews on Amazon. I haven't read a review once since

that day. Because I'm not going to learn anything from a one-star review other than it wasn't for me. Well, you just told me about you, but you didn't tell me about my work. So I get it. It wasn't for you. But that's not what I need to learn to get better. I think many people fall into this illusion that whatever they're creating is for everybody. I

don't have that clarity around who specifically they're writing for, creating for, and as a result, the work suffers. And this is something, this is a drum you've been beating from the beginning, all the way back to tribes, etc. About having that definitive sense of who you're serving. And I think we're in an interesting time now because the internet has fractured the monoculture and everything is about

tribes now. It's very unlikely that we're going to see only rarely now do we see gigantic creative offerings that move the entire culture. Yes. And because of that, it's created opportunity for many people. But I feel like people still fall under the delusion that they need to be like Taylor Swift or George Lucas or somebody like that. Taylor Swift is a pretty similar Swift. I got

into the fact that... I got into it too. This is such an easy thing to describe and a hard thing to embrace. So about seven miles from here is a four mile trail where you can go in a state park into the woods and find out where they filmed mash. Like you're in the DMC. It's my backyard trail. It's a real... I was there yesterday. And

I took pictures and sent them back to the family. And my wife's like, that's really cool. And they kids like, what's this? So mash. It was the most popular TV show ever broadcast when it went off the air. The last episode, 70 million plus people saw. So to compare 70 million people to a show like The Sopranos or Mad Man or whatever, which got seen by

3 million people when they were broadcast. Right? 120th the number. Or if you think about anything that your friends, people in quotation marks are talking about on Netflix, a million, two million people are seeing it when it's first coming out. Taylor Swift would not make the Billboard top 500 if her music was compared to sales from the 1970s. Not even close. That what it means to

win on the long tail is you're just a tiny drip in a giant bucket. And that's enough. So I had 20 best sellers in a row. And not one of them has sold to more than 1% of the US population. Which means that 99% of the US population said, not interested. No idea who you are. See ya. That's not failure. That's success. So writing for all

these people who are never going to engage with you, making a TV show or podcast for everyone. No, don't make cereal. Because cereal ends up being popular because something had to win that day's lottery. But it's probably not going to be you. No, and it's very specific in what it is. I don't think anybody involved in that program anticipated the success, nor were they making it

for the purpose of impacting culture. Right. But if you copy them and say, well, this is going to be the next blank. You've lost why you're doing it. The thread you're saying, someone's going to the lottery. It's going to be me. And we see struggling people struggling with income tricked into buying lottery tickets for that very reason. And it's a dumb investment. And instead put ourselves

on the hook and say, no, I'm making this for the vegan community of Agoria Hills, California. And if they don't like it, I have failed. Because it's a big deal. And that's what it's for. So I put myself on the hook when I say that. Whereas if I say, I'm making the best thing I can. And hopefully lots of people will like it. Well, then when

a few people don't like it, you can just say, well, I'm waiting for the next people. I'm waiting for a lucky break. How do I hype this? And so putting yourself on the hook, that's how you get funding for your project. That's how you hire people. That's how you get a job. Be specific, not this average mediocre generalist. Right. And backing into that, talk about a

little bit about how you made these decisions for yourself, about how you wanted to invest your time and kind of defining for yourself. What was important to you? So I failed a lot when I was getting started 10 years in a row, pretty much. I got 800 rejection letters in a row from the book publishing community after I sold my first book, Chip Conley was co-author

in 1986. Yeah. I want to get into the Chip Conley, Southgoat and Algonquin table. And I'm going to get a lot of money. I'm going to get into the anthropology department. And so Chip and I sold the first one, the first day. I was like, oh, I get it. I'll just make books that everyone wants to buy and publishers will publish them. And what I discovered

was that the market was smarter than me. And it was saying to me, we get that you have ideas about what book would sell if it was at the cash register at Barnes and Noble. But we can't make a book get to the cash register at Barnes and Noble through will. It's luck. So why don't you make something specific? That pushed me on this path of

realizing that every time I got deep with things, and it wasn't always the same thing from my team. There were 10 of us. But, you know, we did the Stanley Kaplan SAT prep books, not sort of average SAT prep books. We did novels based on Nintendo games, the best Nintendo games, not something we could do easily or conveniently. And that cycle got it started. And then

I started one of the very first internet companies. And what was going on? The internet in the 90s was think about how we spend our time today and imagine that none of those companies existed. So there's this huge race, because it was a buffet for a few of us who understood what was happening. And if you put too much on your plate, it all fell off.

And the people who figured it out put one thing on their plate and won that thing. So I understood strategically what was going on. But then the personal challenge was, I don't, as an entrepreneur, like getting too close to what I was doing. So I was like, I'm going to have to give this up and go get a job as a bank teller. So conservative about

the size of the risks I was taking. But also I have mild ADD. And I, oh, look, a puppy, I'm mildly distracted by shiny objects. And I realized if I didn't put up blinders, I'd be racing from one thing to the other. So those were the two reasons that got me disciplined. But within that, there's this journey. I mean, you're at Stanford Business School. You're iterating

on all these business sites. So the idea is you, from there, become a serial entrepreneur, you have an exit and you get into book publishing, et cetera. But at some point you decide, I'm going to be a writer. Along the way, you learn all these skills, these relevant principles around business and culture. And there must have been an impulse to share them. Was that a function

of being in the book publishing industry and saying, actually, I could write better books than this? Or where did the writer impulse come up and make its voice heard for you? So when I was a book packageer, I did 120 books. Some of them are. What is a book packageer? I don't even know that if I know what that is. It's like being a movie producer.

You create the conditions for a book to exist. Most books don't need one. All men ask need one and cyclopedias need one. Photo books need one because it's a production. And sometimes I wrote them. Sometimes I didn't. Usually I hired other people to write them. But I wasn't a writer with a capital W. I would go to meetings and the editors would treat me with much

less respect because they like writers. They didn't like people who did what I did. And when I was building the Internet Company, you know, you're dying. It was taking us six to nine months to close the sale because it was complicated in those days to explain what permission marketing was, what email marketing was. I was like, hey, I know how to make books. So I write

a book about this and we could just give the book to people, which would give credibility. And if they read the book, the sales cycle would, so it was totally a mercenary thing to say this would pay off for our company. But between the time I wrote it and the time it came out, we sold the company to Yahoo. And yet this book came out and

it became a New York Times best seller. And around that time, some things happened in my personal life. My mom got really sick. I left Yahoo. I moved back to New York and I sat in a dark room by myself for nine months, not with no job with why bother writing another book. My real book worked. I can't sell more copies than that. And then this

guy who almost known it heard of named Malcolm Gladwell sent me the galleys of a book called the tipping point. And he asked me to blurb the back of it. And I read it in an hour. And I sent him a blurb right away. And in the next two weeks, I wrote an entire book because clearly I had been thinking about it, but had been denying

resistance doing it. Because I didn't want to be an author, I thought. But Malcolm's book opened that spigot for me because I saw that he was committing a generous act in the way he was describing what he was seeing. That's so interesting. Because I do think of you in similar terms as people who have a keen observational ability when it comes to seeing trends from a

macro perspective, culturally business, et cetera. And have kind of, you know, not necessarily contrarian, but kind of orthogonal perspectives. We were talking before the podcast about your ideas about how to, you know, reframe the Olympics, et cetera. I mean, these are, you know, these are, there is a shared kind of kind of kind of kind of sensibility there. Yeah. Yeah. There is. And I'm always flattered

if someone compares me to Malcolm, except when it comes to hairstyles because I used to have hair like he's the champion. I know where he can just like his, but it all fell out. Anyway, so I was nervous because my book was going to come out before his and it had been inspired by the idea of the topic. So I sent it to him. And I

said, if you don't think I should publish this, I won't. But if you like it, I appreciate any kind of, and he actually volunteered and wrote the forward for which he doesn't do anymore. But I was back in the day. And the book was about how I did spread. So I put the book online for free. And I just needed to get it off my desk.

I didn't. I had been using books as a tool my whole career. I love books, but I didn't, wasn't an off there in the sense of, I'm willing to slave and obscurity to put my stuff down. They were a tool. They were what I did for a living. And this book, I wasn't going to make a penny from. I just wanted to share this idea because

it was so timely. And it took off. It got downloaded millions of times, the most popular book of all time at the time. And I was like, Oh, well, we should make a hard copy because people hate reading it on the screens and, you know, 1990, whatever. So we quickly made a hard cover and it became a really big best seller. I was like, now I'm

an author because now I've done it twice in a row. And not only that, I'm not sitting in a dark room by myself anymore. This, the cycle of think hard, right, hard. And a year later, your event publishing event will happen. And then you can do it again. I can do that. And I can do that with the sense of confidence and generosity. Right. Is partly

because I understand the industry, partly because I'm not going to know how to write, even though I didn't use to know how to write, I taught myself. And partly, because I think I can see systems in a way that people would appreciate. Yeah. And so that's what made me a writer. We're brought to you today by Athletic Greens. Most people who listen to this podcast already

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say, what do you do? Do you answer that you're a writer or how do you do that? What do you write on forms where they say occupation? So full credit to my friend Clay Heber. He has a great 10 minute talk about the elevator pitch. But my rejoinder is no one ever bought anything on an elevator. And if you're busy doing an elevator pitch, it's probably

a way of hiding. I think elevator questions are better. Because what you want is people to follow you out of the elevator and keep talking to you. And so when people ask me what I do, I now say, I'm a teacher because I've do it enough media that I don't think of myself as just an author. But they, I've always had a lot of insecurity about

picking that genre, because imposter syndrome instantly follows. So as somebody who, you know, is known as a genius of marketing, you're in the marketing hall of fame. How does marketing play into how you think about what you do and how you kind of ship your creative work? To use your vernacular. Do you think about like the brand of Seth Godin and the promise and the trust

that you're building with the community of people that care about what you do? Okay. So small sidebar for people who haven't listened to me for 400 hours before. Marketing isn't advertising marketing isn't hype. Marketing isn't hustling people. No one wants to be hustled. It used to be all of those things. In 1965, advertising and marketing were the same thing. I'm not sure I understand the difference.

Well, advertising. Is using money to interrupt people. So you make enough money so you can do it again. And in the age of mass marketing, they don't care about and trust these days. They're added by just either nonexistent or tiny. Right. One of the last time you saw an ad with a jingle for Google, Google doesn't have a jingle. They don't need a jingle. So it

has been replaced by the story we tell to the people we seek to serve. So that the story is resident and they will tell the others. If you can do that, then you have done a good job of marketing. And so if we think of people who have been interested, they can ask for a name. How do you go about marketing at Toyota Prius? Well, first

thing is make sure it doesn't look like a Toyota Corolla. Because if it looked just like a Corolla, as they were driving around the neighborhood, no one would notice them. But if you have a car 10 years ago, it looks a little bit like a weird spaceship. Your neighbor is, you know, and so you start to understand status roles and affiliation and dominance and subcultures and

tribes and all of these things are what marketing actually is. The story we tell that creates tension so that people will move forward. That's great marketing. So I think that's being told that invites and attracts people who like that story and would like part of that story to be their own story. Correct. It starts to create identity, which is about affiliation or you're an insider or

you're an outsider culture is right next to marketing. So I've been a marketer of my whole life and everybody who has been successful at making any sort of change. It has likely been a marketer if they're dealing with voluntary interaction. Right. So if you want soccer to be more popular than basketball in a country, you need to make marketing decisions that have nothing to do with

whether you're putting up billboards. And a lot of people don't understand this. They think they just need to get some more money together to put up some more billboards, which used to be true, but it's not true anymore. And so when we, if you drive down through Hollywood, you see all these billboards for not very good TV shows. They aren't going to resonate with people. That's

because someone at Netflix or Hulu is making bad marketing choices about what shows to make and who to put in them, not bad marketing decisions about billboard placement. So with all that said, everybody has a brand or they are invisible. Your brand is not your logo, though your logo is very cool. Your brand is the story. People tell themselves about you and the expectations they have

of what you're going to be like when you walk in the room. That's your brand. And if you start becoming inconsistent, your brand will inevitably become inconsistent and fade away. So General Motors doesn't have much of a brand. Because we don't know what to expect the next time General Motors tells us they're going to make a car. Whereas McLaren has a brand. No ads, but they

were brand. Because if I said I got a new car from McLaren, you would have a hunch as to what I spent on it and what it would mean about me, identity one. Which is why I have to take great pains is that I don't have a McLaren. Right. So it would be very surprised. Exactly. Because that's what a brand is. So in my case, there

are definitely times when I would like to act authentically in the moment. And I don't because authenticity is overrated. Your customers don't want you to be authentic. Your podcasts listeners don't want you to be authentic. They want you to be the best version of you that you promised them. That there are some certain professions like Rockstar where you get points for having a meltdown on stage

and dying of an overdose. Because that's authentic. But in most other fields, if you go to see a doctor for a checkup, you don't care that the doctor is having a bad day. You just want her to be the best version of that doctor that she is capable of being today. Because that's what you bought. And so, you know, when you see somebody having a tantrum

dealing with a customer service person, that's, you know, acceptable. It is a version of status roles that I don't approve of. But also, if that person who was having the tantrum was someone you knew, their brand would change in your mind. Sure. All right. Well, a couple observations on that. First of all, you know, I do feel like this innate allergy to the idea that like

I'm a brand like I really struggle with that. I understand intellectually the importance of thinking about this in a professional context. And the role that brand plays in that. But it just strikes me as distasteful. And perhaps that's because you don't have to like it. It's still true. It's still true. It's the whole economy of, you know, what's going on on the internet right now. And

then, and then second of that, I would push back a little bit on, and I'm interested in your thoughts on this, on the authenticity piece. Because I do feel like authenticity is an aspect of what I am communicating and advocating through the work that I do. Because I feel like most people are so far shy of being authentic to who they are. And I have to

model that. I don't have to. I choose to model that in a way that's perhaps a little bit more vulnerable than somebody else who does what I do to create that permissiveness for the audience. Now, I calibrate that. I'm not going to come in and, you know, I'm choosing those moments, not in a negative context of strategy. But, you know, there's, there is too much vulnerability

and too much authenticity. I would grant you that. So it's a spectrum. We're not disagreeing. That we have no problem with the fact that Alana Glazer plays a role when she's on television. We're not looking for the authentic Alana Glazer. We're looking for a broad city. Alana Glazer and Jerry Seinfeld or George Costanza, whatever you want, right? And all the way at the other extreme, we

want our spouse to talk to us like the authentic human being that they are. So everywhere in between is a spectrum. If we get pulled over for a traffic ticket, we don't want to cop the punches in the nose just because they can and they're having a bad day. Not okay. It would be authentic, but not okay. The last time we were fully authentic, we were

a year old and we had poop in our diapers. Ever since then, we've been calculating. We've been trading. We've been saying, I know I could blurt something out right now, but I'm going to hold back for just 10 seconds because it's worth it. And what I'm just trying to say to people is, I don't want to let you off the hook for your bad behavior just

because you say, well, I'm being authentic. Because I don't think it's a legitimate excuse. You want to stand for something? Yeah, that's all I'm saying. Right, I got you. So for the average person who's listening to this or watching this, like, why should they care about brand? Should they think about brand in the context of their own lives? Or how can understanding brand or marketing be

something that should garner their attention? So how do you get into college? Right? Colleges, the sweepstakes, colleges and fair, only 20% of the qualified people get into any famous college. If you just say, here's everything there is about me. Now you know me as well as I do. Please pick me, A, they're not going to spend the time. It's going to take to learn everything about

you. And B, it's probably not going to work. And you can choose by which activities you narrate, by which behaviors you highlight, what you will be seen in the four minutes. They're choosing to pick you or not. Same things when you're applying for a job. Resume isn't you. Resume is the things you selected to show somebody that you can honestly persist in doing consistently so that

you can get to the next step. And the same thing is true. And all the people we connect with online and all the people we work with, we get to pick. What story people tell about us when we show up. My blog post today is about writing your own autobiography. So the autobiography of Robert Moses is a 66 hour long audio. I strongly recommend it so

you can listen to it fast speed. So here's this guy who lived for 90 years and it took only 66 hours to tell us about his life, which means you have to leave out all of it except a little tiny bit, which part are you going to talk about? Right? You're going to talk about that evening. His daughter had a fever and he went to the

drugstore for her. No, because it doesn't add to the narrative. So what I'm saying is you probably will benefit from writing your own narrative and living it. Because people are going to judge you one way or the other. You should be judged the way you want to be judged. There's the story that we want to tell others about who we are and how we show up

in the world and present ourselves so that we can succeed or make our way in the world in the manner of our aspirations. And then there's the stories we quietly tell ourselves about who we are and what we're capable of. And those are really that that really dictates outcomes, you know, in the largest way. And this is the ultimate hamstring for most people, myself, included. And

this is what your next book is about. Tell me more. This is what we need you to teach us. What do we say when we talk to ourselves? Who is more qualified to talk about that than you? I don't know. Maybe you. Maybe you. No, because I don't know how to talk to myself in a way that would increase my performance in ways that are outside

of my comfort zone, the way that you do. And I think that you can start with physical performance because it's easier to measure. But it's all of the same thing, which is, you don't need more time. You don't need more information. You need to tell yourself a different way. And story and rebooting the story we tell ourselves is really challenging. There are lots of hacks for

it. But conceptually, just acknowledging it's possible is super important. And press fields work goes into this without naming it. But war of art and the new book are just all about by acting differently. You will start to tell yourself a different story. Yeah. So it's the action that changes the story. But the action is the result. Of a decision that has to be made. Correct. And

that decision is a stumbling block. Because on some level, whatever story it is that we're telling ourselves about who we are and our capacity, even if it's incredibly negative and most people's stories are first, it's acknowledging that it's an illusion. But even more primary to that is understanding that even though it's not serving you, it is serving you. There's a reason why you're holding on to

it. There's a comfort with it. Correct. It's a way of staying safe and small. So you're not putting yourself on the line. And even if it's obvious to everyone else and to the person themselves, it still is a herculean task to grapple with that and ultimately transcend that. Correct. And we've been indoctrinated intentionally by cultural forces since the day we were born to have this story

be told to ourselves. That industrialists invent it so that we would show up at work. Right. And this opens up the whole conversation around education, which was constructed from an industrialist perspective to create compliant workers and to lure us into a web of easy coercion. Right. And a lot of ideas about what's wrong with education and how it should be changed. And when you name it,

when you name it, it's already making people uncomfortable. Yeah. They don't want to believe that they're not going to be able to do it. It feels like something that your loving parents put you into it at the beginning and that you've been doing your whole life must be a natural law. It must be correct. And if it is working for you, no problem. No harm, no

foul. But what we are seeing with a new generation coming up with the climate with everything else is it's not working for us. And we are not going to be able to standardize, test our way out of this. And understanding that well-meaning people were part of a system of indoctrination helps you realize what clothes the emperor is wearing and what to do about it for yourself

and for your kids. So what is the path forward? If you were you woke up tomorrow and you had been. You found yourself as the secretary of education or some other you're in the seat of power to make these changes or you were the provost of Harvard or whatnot. Like what would you do? Well neither of those people has any power. We have a systems problem.

There are people who are opening schools that address it but most parents don't want to send their kids there because it's systemic. And I think we should be teaching kids two or three things. How to lead, how to solve interesting problems and probably how to be a good citizen. How to lead is different than how to manage. How to lead is way finding path finding and

encouraging people to follow you even though they don't have to. And solving interesting problems. The opposite of looking them up in Wikipedia. We don't need anyone to know what four times seven is because we can just look it up. What we need is for people to say, oh this is a thorny intersection of human problems, technical problems, and a situation. I wonder if there's a way

I can decode this. We spend one minute a year helping eight year olds and 12 year olds with stuff like that. And it extends really dramatically into sports and school which seems to be about solving a trolling. And I think it's a very healthy shortage, not about helping kids lead and solve interesting problems. That was part of the Malcolm discussion that I had. Yeah. Exactly. And

so when we added all up, what we're doing is creating people who are willing to be compliant cogs in an industrial system. And guess what? The industrial system is falling apart. So now we have all these people who say, I did what I was supposed to do. Where is my American dream? And we have to say to them, well actually what we need you to do

is be more insightful than an artificial intelligence system. And be more flexible than somebody I could hire for half the price who's remote. If you can't do those two things, I don't need you. But we never taught them how to do anything. Right. After 20 years of indoctrination in following the rules and being a good, studious individual, you become a newer to following rules. And what

we need now are people who look at the rules and deconstruct them. And that's just not part of the curriculum. Right. And they're not even looking. Like if you have a fever, you realize you have a fever. So it is still different to the way it is that we're going to do that. And we're going to try to find some Tylenol. In this case people don't

even know that this system exists and that it's the problem. And so part of my work on education has been just highlighting it. Just saying, look what just happened in this classroom right here, is that what we want to do tomorrow, and if not, how are we going to start undoing it? And there's a lot of interesting work getting done in unschooling in peer to peer

schooling, and things, they probably can. And the seven year old grows, the five year old grows, and a cycle is created that's different. Lenny Levine, the great kindergarten teacher who had such an impact on my family, he said to the parents, the only purpose of his kindergarten class for nine months is you can't say you can't play. He said your kids are all going to learn

how to read. But if I can teach them the expression you can't say you can't play, meaning if someone wants to join the school, they can join the circle. So when needs your help, they get your help. If someone needs leadership, you lead. If I can teach them that, everything else would take care of itself. Yeah. But it's scary from a parental perspective, because this system

and all the external pressures that are built into complying and adhering to that system make it very threatening and scary for any parent to say, we're going to opt out of that and do this when everyone else is doing it in the traditional way, because nobody wants to lead their child astray. Everybody wants the best for their kid. And it's very easy to say, well, everyone

else is doing this, it must be fine. We're going to take this risk and do this. What if it doesn't work out? Right. Back to being on the hook. Right. That much, most suburban parents would like to be on the hook for a sticker on the back of their car 10 years from now, not on the hook to answer for why their kid didn't do well

on the estate. Right. And the sticker is about the parents. Correct. The sticker is about the parents. And then we say to a seven-year-old, please make a decision about going a quarter of a million dollars in debt and base it on whether or not their stadium makes you happy. Sure. And not for nothing when you're 17, you need to know what you're going to spend the

rest of your life doing, which is total insanity. Right. But all of these things have evolved in our lifetime, because the system rewards them. And the more I think about systems change, the more clear it becomes to me that the system and the status quo remain because they're good at remaining, that there is a self-fulfilling thing going on. The systems that didn't work disappear, and the

systems that are good at hanging on, hang on. And so we built all of this insulation around the industrial system, the education system, the carbon system, so that they would stick around. And the only way to get rid of them is not for the emperor or the person at the top to slice them open, because that never happens. It's when their grass roots says, we're not

going to deal with this anymore. Right. You need that grass roots, but at the same time part of the interactability of that problem is that the architecture of system stability, like the engine behind it, are the incentives. Right. And you can't change the system without changing the incentive. And most of the incentives in our society are not only holding broken systems in place, they're incredibly difficult

to change. And those can't necessarily change at a grass roots level. It has to be from the top down as well. Well, so let's think of a couple of you look at farm subsidies or any pick your boys. But those might be the last domino. So let's just pick a couple of trivial campaigns. One trivial example is no one wears a suit to work anymore. Like

no one meaning 95% of the people. When I was born, every person who worked in an office wore a suit. That didn't take that long. What happened? Well, it started to be created because Levi's and the gap figured out they can make a profit by flipping one day of the week. And then it shifted because certain kinds of knowledge workers used software in a way that

created so much value. They got to announce what they were doing in a different class of knowledge worker came along who wasn't an investment. And so bit by bit, it starts to fall apart or a pandemic shows up, which is a crisis. And Zoom is ready for it. So there's a lot of that technology is present and all of a sudden we're dismantling one of the

biggest systems in the history of the world, right? Commercial real estate. You don't have to go to work. So you don't want to go to work. So you can work from home. Well, that means that there are giant skyscrapers in New York City that used to be worth a billion dollars that are empty right now. And maybe they'll never have people in them again. That there

are forces that want people to come back, but people have enough power. So bit by bit systems start to change. So there's usually a disruption. A crisis, a technological innovation, some sort of cultural shift that causes these things to happen, right? In the case of music, we got rock music because the transistor radio came with headphones. And before that, everyone in the family listened to music

together. And it's headphones that permitted teenagers to listen to music their parents hated. And so we had to invent music that parents would hate so that teenagers could act out and the headphones were the tool to make music. And then we got to think about the change of the entire music industry. And then go fast forward 30 years. MTV is doing its thing. But then rap

music shows up. And there's another way forward. And our friend Rick Rubin walks right into that and begins to change just a little tiny corner which gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And then radio falls apart. So then the billboard charts don't matter anymore. And so yeah, systems change in surprising ways, but usually because a bunch of people can outline the change. Yeah, there's

something placating about that also though, because it's reliant upon some kind of technological innovation. Or it's about some outlier creative, who expresses themselves in a certain way that shifts culture, which can create paralysis for that grassroots movement. It could, but I think there's plenty of, if we talk about technology, the thing that's going to change education, is for example, every course in MIT is online for

free. Right. But here's the thing. The pandemic presented an unbelievable opportunity for that seismic shift. We saw it in the workplace. We really didn't see it in education. It snapped back to where it was. Scott Galloway talks about this quite a bit. Here was this massive opportunity where these institutions of higher learning could have broadened their enrollment and created tiers of ed education experience for people

as public servants. But these brands are so powerful as back to brand, right? Like Stanford, whatever, they have to protect their brand. And that brand is built upon exclusivity. Oh yeah. And limiting enrollment. We are sitting on ridiculous and down. Scott and I agree about a lot of this. But I don't agree that it is ever going to be led by Harvard or Yale. What's already

happening is a self-taught computer programmer who uses Stack Overflow for two hours a day. For two years, can go get a six-figure job? Sure. And this is happening right now. It's all unwrap. It's all going to unwrap. Unreemergence of and the respect for trade. Correct. And the other thing that's going to happen, which is already happening, is third tier colleges are going to go bankrupt. They're

going to go bankrupt. All of a sudden, and widespread. Because they don't have big endowments. And people aren't going to be willing to do it. People aren't going to be willing to go in debt for the rest of their life to get a second or third rate degree that isn't worth anything. So once that happens, then you have this cratering underneath. And all of a sudden,

people are going to start, like I just got a note today, applications at the top five business schools. All the famous ones are down between 15 and 25%. In one year. That's crazy. But not surprising. Because a whole bunch of people are saying, I don't want to become an industrial middle manager. I don't need to go to Wharton. I'm going to go do a thing with

the $100,000 I saved. And the status of that degree can drop really fast. As soon as the people who are gauging the status, don't care about it anymore. I wonder if there is a downside to that in that what we need is people who are excited about things like STEM. And instead, we have a generation of young people who would rather try to be a Kardashian

or a TikTok influencer. There's so many down. And feeling like they can make a ton of money overnight. The easy way. No, thank you for highlighting. And the creativity and the hard work that is part and parcel of becoming good at anything. Oh, the downsides of this shift are huge. I'm not a polyanna about it. They're huge. And anti-intellectualism is a problem as well as anti-smart.

And Harvard is going to have to respond or react and they have enough money to do it. They're just never going to go first. And the idea that you're going to make it as an influencer is fundamentally absurd. You're not. Just do the math. And having a skill that creates value is a no-brainer. The thing is, can you get the skill without the piece of paper?

And the online workshops that I built, I don't want them anymore. That's what we're going to do. We said, absolutely, you can do that. We can prove it. Now more than ever. Yeah. And so as soon as the value of the paper goes down, but the skill goes up, someone's going to step into that gap and say, here's how we're going to credit skills as opposed

to a credit scarcity. So this is all happening, not fast enough, but you just need to see it first. As somebody who has such keen observational skills and has your finger on the pulse of the macro and can kind of see the forest for the trees. And you're understanding around how ideas spread. I'm interested in your perspective around what has transpired culturally over the last few

years with respect to the nature of public discourse, the increase of siloization, the death of nuance, the obfuscation of truth, the ascent of the conspiracy, all of that. It's very trepidacious terrain right now. Yes, it is. So how are you, making sense of this? Okay. So there are a couple of things that are worth noting. The first one is back at the dawn of the Internet,

I was a techno optimist, give everybody a microphone, things get better when you get rid of gatekeepers. And we will see a flourishing like we've never seen before. And let me just put a pin in that for a moment. When you say the birth of the internet, you're talking about like 1976, right? You're talking about ARPANET. So 76 is when I got my first email in

76. So I'm talking about the dawn of prodigy, I had prodigies most popular product in 1989, right? So we were sitting in room saying, this is clearly going to get bigger. And what will happen when it gets bigger? What we failed to take into account is some people want to be a troll. There is satisfaction for some people in being a contrarian. That's number one. And

number two is fights sell tickets. And that's always been true. When you combine those two things, what we see is that media channels, which also have influence over technology, because Facebook is a media channel and a technology, have an incentive to amplify trolls. And so what you end up with is people who make money from division. And then you have people who would like to seek

political power, who make money from division. And a cycle, a non-virtual cycle that just keeps going in that direction over and over and over again, making it feel like things are far more divided and atomized than they ever were before. What in fact, what we've really done is just put microphones in front of people who already were angry and felt left out, but we couldn't hear

them. And what happens is if you turn down the volume of these people who would seek to make us feel uncomfortable so that we will go back just to make sure everything's okay. You realize that an enormous amount of money in the progress has been made in an enormous amount of areas, that the percentage of the truly poor, uner the percentage wise, small as it's ever

been, there's still way too many people. That the ability that we have to know things, to connect the things, to learn things, never before have we seen this. So what we've got to figure out now, how to do, is change the incentives for media and politicians so that they don't make a living by making things worse. And we've been through this before. In the early 1960s

when I was born, the single best way to gain power in the Soviet Union or the United States was to threaten to blow up the planet. And we were 10 minutes away from the entire planet being blown up in one hour. We figured out how to calm that down because we know how much is its stake. Until like last week, but go ahead. So many things,

right? And so I think we got to figure out what to do about breaking news. Because no one needs breaking news. We got to figure out what to do about people who are day trading their emotions, trying to figure out if everything's going to be okay. And the last part of my rant is, the baby boomers have always made it about the baby boomers. In the

70s when they were getting drafted, it was all about the draft. In the 80s when it was about, you know, dad rock and music, it was all about that. Well, the baby boomers are all dying now. And, you know, I'm one of the youngest ones and I'm in my 60s. So all of a sudden it's all about, the end times. It's all about, this is all

over. And guess what? 90% of the world is in a baby boomer. And so good. And so good. Things, things, things, things. We're making it all about themselves. We've controlled the media since 1972. Right. Not so much anymore. It's shifting. Yeah. Yeah. There is this situation in which we have the denigration of trust in institutions, right? Media, politicians, corporations, etc. And also, we don't agree upon

a shared set of facts about what's real and what isn't. Which is an even larger kind of more. Macro problem. And the siloization is separating ourselves and gamifying the discourse such that it's about being right or it's about signaling to your in group that you are a member in good standing as opposed to grappling with the nuance of reality and trying to make sense of it.

And this I see as, you know, the great existential crisis of our time is the climate. And I promise we're going to get to this. But, you know, this is another great threat to our community. Our ability to problem solve. How can we solve the climate problem if we can't agree on reality? Okay. So again, part of this is amplified by people who make a living

amplifying it. But we've never agreed about reality. Ten years ago, 80% of the people in the United States said they believed in angels that angels were real. And what's always been true is that human beings have emotions and feelings and stories. And science, which is only a couple hundred years old, has come along and shown us replicatable, falsifiable theories that we can say this is reality.

Your emotions are your emotions. And there's a gap between them. And that gap widens and narrows over time. But people, including me, believe lots of things that aren't true. What you're highlighting, I think, is that you can sell a lot of papers and raise a lot of money by pointing out that the other team refuses to acknowledge reality. And then our reality is right. What really

is being said is we have feelings. We have feelings about winning and losing, feelings about status, feelings about affiliation, feelings about being in something. And we will find facts in quotation marks to prove that our feelings are correct. Because people don't like to acknowledge that their feelings are not correct. So, small aside, I used to get upper respiratory colds because I traveled so much. And I

walk into a health food store in a strange town and I say to the person behind the counter, I got a bad cold. Do you have any placebos? And she says, I don't know if they've come in yet. And she calls to the back to the manager, do we have any placebos? And they did not want to admit that they sold placebos. That if you want

to have a fight with an acupuncturist or a chiropractor, just point out that they have a very effective, low side effect placebos. And so, thank you for making that. They will insist that what they do is real and factually based. So, our stories are our stories. We just have to make sure they don't hurt other people. Our stories are our stories. And we have to make

sure they don't hurt other people. I'm not convinced that people care about whether their stories hurt other people or not. Not enough. They don't care enough. That's our work. Not to prove that they are wrong, but to create a civil society where you can have your feet and feelings, but we have to have a civil society that works for all of us. And there are certain

things that you just don't do, can't do. Because if we do them, regardless of our story or our feelings, the civil society itself doesn't work. That's what scares me. Right. And I would argue that it's already not working on some level. Of course not. It has never worked perfectly. But yes, in recent times, it's very troubling about things that will happen in our civil society that

are based on the amplification of stories and division by people who make a profit doing it. Right. We need to see that. We need to name it. And I don't think it matters. Which side of any given story you're on, you should be able to say that sentence in a clear way and acknowledge that it's concrete. That's sort of a segue into the climate issues that

I want to talk about. I want to talk to you about solving these problems does require consensus. And this book, the Carbon Almanac, is an effort to create consensus based upon scientific research and evidence-based reality. Right. This is your 20th book. 20th? 20th. 20 best. Oh, this is 20. This is 21. But this is OK. Not my book. It's our book. And what's interesting about it

is that on some level, you can make the argument that it is very much a departmental of the structure from your other books, which are about marketing and business and creativity and expression, et cetera. But there's another argument that it is very much a piece with your other work. Certainly in the kind of beautiful artistic presentation of it, but talk a little bit about how it

fits in thematically with as a kind of extension of the work that you've always been doing. So, there is going to be fine. That's not the question. The question is whether people living on the earth will be fine. And whenever we talk about the future, what we're doing is telling a story. And the problem with the last 40 years of talking about the climate is that

people who have been telling a story haven't been doing a very good job of it. And they've been way laid and manipulated by the people who dig things out of the ground or want certain political structures to stay the way they are. But the fact is the first thing most people say, who know what they're talking about, we know by the climate, is they say it's

complicated and it's inconvenient. That was even the name of the movie. And when you say to people, it's complicated, their eyes begin to glaze over. And when you say it's inconvenient, they walk away. On top of that, it's easy to feel stupid because no matter how much you know, somebody knows more than you. So, it became hard to talk about. If you can't talk about it,

you can't make it better. So, the purpose of this project is, I went my first blog post about the climate, 16 years ago, didn't solve the problem. And I haven't written too many other posts in the 15 years in between because I didn't feel smart. I felt stupid. I felt like whatever I was going to write, people were going to say, you don't know enough. And

I said, well, if that's true for me, probably true for other people too. And I used to make Almanac's when I was a book packageer. I knew how to make an Almanac. I could have made the whole thing myself if I had spent five years on it. But I wanted to model systems change. How do we do something together? And so 300 people, 40 countries, every

single page is footnoted with live links on our website. We correct errors in real time. We haven't corrected any that matter. And brawl volunteers, including me. And it became a best seller in the US and the Netherlands and Italy and just came out in China. But here's the thing that people should take away. Let's say it's 1642. And you're a James Bond villain. And you want

to kill all the whales. The way you would do it is by putting space lasers on satellites and shooting the whales from space. The problem is there are no satellites and there are no space lasers. So you know what you could do instead? You could teach five people that whale oil is a really good way to light your house. And if you did that, the idea

would spread. And then there would be whale oil refineries and people who made the lanterns and people who built the boats and people who wanted the whales and people who made a living building a system in which the input was whales. And the only reason there are whales left is not because people said, please, please, please stop hunting whales. The only reason there are whales left

is because someone invented kerosene. And then the system changed. And we have a systems problem. And this is what I learned in working on this project. I learned a lot about human nature, about the amazing people I did this was around the world. But the systems problem is simple. 110 years ago, there was a gusher called spindle top. And a couple years before that, they found

oil in Pennsylvania. And those two things, we saw companies produce elements of natural tools using aspire and tools to produce what they created. And we got a pair of complex, just an effort from that point of view in the world as well. The essentially something special kind of thing that you might know as building a tent. And also central technology, that aren't necessarily built. You can

go through all kinds of events like uh, convenience and price and all the other things we built around it. We can't solve this problem by just saying I'm composting in my backyard. Yeah, we need to change the system. A couple observations. It really does model the addiction paradigm on some level. You know, it sort of flipped to say we're addicted to cheap energy, but truly we

are. And what's interesting about that is the notion that we become addicted to something because it works. Whether it's alcohol or cocaine or gambling or bad relationships or scrolling on our phone, it's serving a need and a purpose. And cheap energy did that. It allowed us to modernize the world, right. But it works until it doesn't and it's not working anymore, right. And it becomes a

function to kind of extend the addiction metaphor like the elevator is going down. Is it going to hit the bottom or are we going to step off before it hits the bottom. And this is the story that every person who struggles with addiction has to answer for themselves. And now we're having to answer that as a global society. And it's hard as somebody who loves somebody

who is struggling with addiction to see them destroying themselves to know that there is a solution to offer your hand to help and to see them refuse to take your hand. Beautifully said. And this is the scenario that we are in right now. And the solution, as you so eloquently put, cannot rest on necessarily or only the shoulders of the individuals to martyr themselves or to

make sacrifices that seemingly are just a drop in the ocean, but to create the system change. Wherein the right choice is the convenient choice, the cost affordable choice, the accessible choice for everybody. Correct. Well said. So how do we bridge that gap and get there. So the purpose of the decision is to make the right choice. The purpose of the Almanac is to begin to have

the conversation to answer that question because we weren't having it. And so I have personal theories, but I'm not speaking for the Almanac team. The reason is because what we did in the Almanac, 97,000 words built by 300 people fact checked completely is say you can look up every single thing in this book, every single thing. There is no argument about any fact or case three

digit codes. Correct. For every topic. Right. So you go. You go to the carbonalmanac.org and then the three numbers. And it will show you everything we use to write it. If you find a mistake, we will fix it. No problem. But what do I think? I think there are just a few very simple, dramatic shifts that will change the system and put the market to work

that the reason markets have transformed the world is markets are good at finding and solving problems. They see a need. If there is a team that doesn't have a baseball bat and they need a baseball bat, someone will figure out how to sell them a baseball bat. And now the baseball bat problem goes away because the market did it. Not some central government authority or some

wizard. Someone says I need something. Someone sells it to them. That only works if the inputs and outputs are measured properly. So the first thing hardest to implement in the short run, but it's already happening in countries around the world, is you give every single person a check for $3,000, $4,000. And you get the money for that check by pricing carbon fairly. So if you buy

exactly the same amount of carbon as used to buy, you'll probably break even. If on the other hand, you want to take a private jet from here to London, doesn't cost $80,000, it costs $400,000. If you really want to go, you can still go. But now we've charged you the correct price. And if you do that, all of your fellow citizens are going to get a

bigger check because you decided to do that. So as soon as you do that, it's called a carbon dividend and border adjustment. All these different decisions get made. You know those yoga mats you bought? The yoga mats aren't going to come wrapped in a plastic bag anymore because plastic bags are cheap in the old days. Now, plastic bags are expensive as they should be in their

come wrapped in paper. But if you want to buy the plastic bag, you can. But why would you? Because it's not convenient. And so it starts to ripple through the economy really fast. The government doesn't touch any of the money. And what you end up with is corporations, which run so much of our economy, making smart decisions and consumers, which run the rest of our economy,

making smart decisions. That's the first part. And the second part, which surprises a lot of people, is way more than 20% of our problem, maybe 35% of our problem, is cows. There are a billion cows on this planet. And it is very hard for me, other than the cost of change, to understand why anybody would say we should have any cows on this planet. Most people

on earth don't eat things that come from cows. And if everyone did eat the way we eat in the United States, just the physics of it, we would need a whole other planet just to hold the cows. So clearly, that's not going to happen because we don't have another planet. So with that said, the path forward is pretty clear. The systems that built this, now that

I just described, would get rid of 70 to 80% of the problem. If someone can figure out how to make fusion power work, that would help an enormous amount. And what's not helping is greenwashing, what's not helping is people doing performative stuff that makes them feel like they're making a difference, like recycling their plastic water bottles, which doesn't work, which was invented by the plastics industry,

and they know it doesn't work. When you start doing those things, you're giving yourself solace for one day, but you're spitting on your grandchildren's. Those are lullabies, designed by vested corporate interests to make us feel like this is all moving in the right direction. When in fact, it's a barrier to the solution that we need. The cows thing, people are very dismissive of that. They like

to make fun of it. And there's a lot of sort of intellectual gymnastics going on right now to suggest that, you know, that's really not part of the problem. In fact, we need the cows for the soil that has been so denigrated. And, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, I think, moral intellectual confusion around that. Yes. And I really don't want to

have an argument with anybody who cares about keeping beef around. I get it. That's your story. Those are your feelings. You can have them. You just asked when you look at the math where it's coming from. There's a great book that people who want to approach this problem with an open mind should read called The Wizard in the Prophet. And what he describes in its history

book, it's about two men who only met once in their life, who changed the world. The wizard won the Nobel Prize for feeding people in Mexico. India and other places by hybridizing seed and killing the soil by creating the fertilizer industry. Because if you put enough fertilizer down and, and till you can grow a lot more crops in the short run, he fed a billion people

doing that. It's hard to be against feeding a billion people. The Prophet invented the modern environmental movement and said, we have exceeded the earth's carrying capacity. We need less people and we need less of a footprint. So their whole lives were over and back and forth. They just kept missing each other. And the wizard was right and the Prophet was right. They're both right and they're

both wrong. That the way forward is to understand how we're going to use technology to create the conditions for carbon to get back in the top soil. How are we also going to tread lightly and put in, you know, whether it's LED lights or family planning so that we don't have 20 billion people on the planet. Because we can't have 20 billion people on the planet

no matter how you do the math. So it's complicated. And the people who don't want us to change will make it more complicated. And this is the, like the thing I really want to focus on, because a lot of people listen to you. And some of them will be swayed by people who want the status quo to stay where it is. So the easiest way to

do it is, I need to persuade you not to get near beef because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and there's just like a lot of math and stuff. And it's easy to say, okay, fine. And then this person says, well, how will we live a life without plastic? And so we just need to be alert to the fact that we can

argue about this all day, but the earth is getting warmer every single day. And a melted ice cap never gets un-melted. Sure. And the weight and sea approach. Let's just sit on the sidelines and don't worry about recycling because we know that doesn't work anyway. And somebody's going to innovate our way out of this is another form of lullaby. Right. Like we do have to shoulder

our own personal response. And we have to have the ability for this and make the conscious choices that we can. It's incumbent upon us. It's part of our responsibility towards living in this society and borrowing the planet from our grandchildren and the generations to come. And I think what is incredibly frustrating about all of this is that we already have the solutions. Like yes, we need

innovation, but actually we already have enough innovation to solve all of this. And more than half of this book is solutions. Like I think maybe, you know, 30% into the book, it turns to solutions and it's all about solutions. Just like, I mean, this book in many ways is similar to Paul Hawkins book regeneration. Like it's like, here are the problems. And look at all these

people who are already doing all these amazing things that can solve this problem. How do we onboard these people so that their technologies can get traction? How do we reconfigure the incentives such that these solution oriented innovations can get integrated? Whether it's solar, wind and nuclear, I know there's a lot of controversy and conversation around that. But we have everything that we need now. The only

thing we do need is political will, frankly. And we need grassroots will. And we need business incentives that are in line and see the short and long term benefits for investing in these things. Correct. What you just described is a marketing problem. That's why it fits in with my work. It's a marketing problem. If you tell an investor, you tell a CEO, you tell a congressperson

a story that's true, that resonates, that's to their advantage, they will use it. They will move in that direction. We have done a bad job because of the wizard profit confusion of letting the status quo persist because their stories are better because they got really good at it. So Ogovy, the famous ad agency, invented the term carbon footprint. And their client was British petroleum. It's one

of the great marketing campaigns of all time. Because if you are worried about your carbon footprint, you feel like a hypocrite. If you feel like a hypocrite, you're not going to talk about it. Yeah, that's super interesting. The Exxon memo. Like I flagged it in here. It's like on page 46. I can't wait till they sue us. It would be good. I mean, first of all,

so, all right, there's in the book, you have a photocopy of a memo from Exxon dated November 12, 1980 to in which Exxon proceeds to basically describe the very problem that we're experiencing right now in 1982. And they got to it to a degree. I agree. They predicted exactly what the climate would be like today in that memo. And the great cartoonist, random unroll, linked to

it in one of his XKCD cartoons. So that's how I found it. I don't know how it went to the internet. But it is an genuine thing. Exxon has not denied that these are their words from one of their engineers. I was wondering why it didn't, you didn't just put it like right on the page one insert to the book at the very beginning because it's

so damning and extraordinary to read this. Yeah, we had a lot of decisions to make in five months about the book. It's easy to make a book that filled with shame and blame and villains. Yeah. And it's also easy to make a book that's completely positive all that I mean, what do you want to do? And so the team was terrific in figuring out how to

not use balances and excuse to not mean anything, but to use it as a way to say, there is nobody. You can give this to who can say, I reject this out of hand. Because we're not showing up to punch somebody in the face, showing up to say, the weather in Central Park is not up for debate. This is what the weather is in Central Park

right now. What should we do about it is up for debate. So let's have conversations about what to do about it because the time is long gone to deny it. Explain why you felt compelled to create this book in an Almanac format. And like, what is an Almanac actually? It just feels like, you know, when I think of Almanac, I think of like Benjamin Franklin. Yeah,

he was, he was first. Almanac's changed my life when I was a bookpackager because I invented the business Almanac and it sold a lot of copies. It was the internet before the internet. And then we did the celebrity Almanac with People Magazine and I did the Women's Almanac. And I loved them because they matched the way my brain works even before the internet. But once the

internet shows up, all anyone can deal with is an Almanac. Half a page at a time. Oh, look, here's a cartoon. Wait, there's a puppy. And so people way better at writing than me have written articulate books about the climate. What I could add value is by organizing a bunch of people to say, yeah, but look it up. Here it is. So I think it's like

a pdf. It's not school. It's an Almanac. And it's got stats and graphs and charts. And it's cheap. And you should buy five and share them. Because if you hand this around the office, then tomorrow, you can say, which page do you think we should discuss? Because we got to discuss something. Part of the kind of cultural battle that we're waging right now is one between

liberty and responsibility and liberty is winning. There is something very American ingrained in our DNA as citizens of this country that over indexes on liberty. And we've seen the flare-ups politically and culturally around that right now. And what we're not valuing to the extent that is necessary right now is the counterbalance to liberty, which is responsibility. This is something that was kind of understood in prior

generations when World War II happened, etc. And I feel like that is lost right now in the conversation and in the kind of approach that we have towards how we feel about this country that we live in in this planet that we're sharing. So how do we restore a return or at least a call back to feeling a shared sense of communal responsibility? Because ultimately, you

know, this is what the Almanac is saying. It's like, yes, we need something to do. We don't have a system change, but we also need individual responsibility and change. Yeah. This is, I wish I had a glib answer. I will tell you a couple interesting things about going to some of the poorest places on earth. I've worked with Ackerman for more than 20 years. Jacqueline is

one of my heroes. She's unbelievable. She's a very special person. They have now helped 200 million people around the world who are the poorest people in the world to make $3 a day start to move their way out of poverty. Notice when you're in one of those places is no one's on a weird diet because you don't have that much food anyway. You have to have

a lot of food available. You have to have a whole foods down the street before you can say, no, I only eat collagen from left-handed animals or whatever it is, right? And the other thing that goes on is there's an enormous amount of freedom from government intervention in places like this. You don't have to pay any taxes and there's nobody from the government who's going to

come tell you what to do. And yet, most people wouldn't want to live there given the choice because the creature comforts, the civilization that we have come to expect is important. And it's so easy to take for granted. So, Liberty is a fascinating term because Liberty requires civil society for it to be worth anything whatsoever. So I think we have to be careful making sure that

the economy isn't between Liberty and Responsibility because I think you can't have Liberty unless you have Responsibility, that sort of it's definition. So, I think that's said there are long histories of shocks to the system that lead to changes in the culture. And, you know, the beetles were a shock to the system that aided by technology changed the culture. And I think we are facing now

a massive shock to the system. That the fact is that, you know, I don't know what the expression is, there's no atheist in a foxhole. That when your house is flooded, you start to think a little bit differently. So, you start to think about whether we should be doing something about whether it's going to get flooded again. And like I learned in the current, you can't

really easily fight the current of the Pacific Ocean. And you can't really easily fight the weather. Fighting the weather is really expensive. And I think it's going to cause a shift in our culture. But those problems are academic and obscure until you find yourself mired in them. Correct. And the human animal is not wired very well to content with future problems that are not experiential in

the moment. Right. So, it's happening. And it's going to, the next year is going to be so much worse than last year. We still have 10 years to take dramatic action. And my hunch is that we're going to soon hit a point where it's obvious and where it's enough. Enough for people to say, oh, not that I was wrong. Based on what I knew then I

was right. But now I'm going to make a new decision based on new information. And this is what we should do. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's a question. I'm going to quote in the book, convenience is all destination and no journey. And a lot of these problems, at least from our experiential perspective, are the result of overabundance and convenience. Where we're not contending with real problems that are

being visited upon us now. And as such, we have to focus on trivialities. Right. And the threat of our convenience is being taken away from us is really, you know, monocle analyzing our focus instead of allowing us to focus on the real problems. Yeah. And I think the grownups who are listening to us today are aware enough that they ought to be able to say, there's

a difference between your feelings and the way things are. Almost always. Where we get into trouble is when we insist that the way things are, have to match our feelings. Because we always start with our feelings. Your entitlement feelings are not entitled to your own science. And as somebody who understands deeply how ideas spread, what is your sense of, you know, beyond the almanac and the

resources, et cetera. And for this movement as a whole, what is something we could all think about and practice that could help these ideas spread? So I've been studying how ideas spread longer than most people. And I still don't understand. I'm pretty good at being able to point to something and say, yeah, that one's going to work. And sometimes I'm right. But then things come out

of the book. And I don't know what the dynamic is going to be that causes this one to give people the status rolls, the affiliation, the energy to make it easy to spread. It will, because the same way the internet did. Right. That people didn't know that email was going to be the killer app. They didn't know that Chat was going to be the killer app.

They didn't know that Facebook was going to work when Friendster didn't know what the content of the book was going to be. But then something happens. And it's a very complicated formula, but there is something happens. And it happens quickly. It sometimes happens quickly. Sometimes it takes longer. But this is happening now. A year ago when I started this, people gave me a funny look. And

now, like, oh, of course, it and that happened not just in New York. That happened with people who I know in Perth and people I know in Johannesburg and people I know in Bangalore. It's on the radar and it's not a fan. Why don't we have some kind of Manhattan project under maybe we do? I don't that I don't know about. But how come we don't

have the brightest people in the world convening regularly to solve this problem at the highest level? Well, because we get confused about what the highest level means. The highest level for war has always been Dr. Strange love in the Pentagon. But the highest level for the kind of technological cultural change we're talking about has always been privately funded entities. And the internet took off when 20

people on Sand Hill Road decided it was the best investment they ever saw. And I was there. And if you had a notion, it became an idea. And then the next day it was a business. And then you had the resources to share. And what I am seeing. One of the reasons I'm out here is I spoke at a region conference of VC. And that only

funds companies that are working on this problem. That then the first trillionaires going to be somebody who comes up with a really substantial impact on this problem. So that's not enough because we need the carbon border adjustment and dividend. We need all the stuff that the people we elect can do. But they always follow they never lead. And so they're going to follow us if we

show up enough times. If the first second and third question anyone running for any office gets asked. Is about the climate. Not true yet. But it's starting to happen. And they ultimately need to be responsive to the people who are going to send them money or send them votes. And that's going to happen when we speak up. So yeah, there is the number of brilliant people

who are working on say fusion. Ten times what it was. Yeah. Yeah. And the money should get funneled into the innovators who are making that correct conscious choice. Be not just the easy choice and the affordable choice, but also the sexy choice. Right. Like I love how on the website for this, the first thing in terms of like a call to action for anybody who's visiting

is switch your browser to this Ecosha. And for every 45 searches, they plant a tree. And they planted. I don't know how. Like a lot of trees. Which is like I'd never heard of that. What a great idea. It's so cool. There's no friction to making that switch. It's very easy. And you can be part of the solution. And it's cool. And you feel better about

doing your searches. Exactly. Your status goes up. There are no ads. It's more convenient. And if everybody switched, it would be the equivalent of taking. I don't remember the number. A lot of cars off the road. It's a very significant thing. It's not the answer to the problem. But what's really interesting is the resistance some people have to switching. And I got one email talking about

placemos. I used to use Bing. I switched to Ecosha because I like your blog. But I'm switching back because Bing has different better results. And I wrote to them and I said, did you know that Ecosha is powered by Bing? And the results are exactly the same. And you never hear back from people like that. But the point is we tell ourselves a story. Right. And

what's happening is once you start telling yourself the story of I am going to make these shifts, you can't start untelling yourself. And I don't know how much momentum the same way. In 1995, a whole bunch of people said this Internet things never going to amount to anything. But some people got an email address. And then some people got a GOC page. And it unravels. Or

revels. Forward. And so I'm garredly optimistic. Human beings can screw up just about anything. Human beings are capable of being really cruel and short term thinkers. But a lot of people of privilege don't want to have privilege in a world that's not worth living in. And they're starting to show up either because they're going to make more money. Or because they want to undo some of

the damage that their privilege cost. In the journey of compiling all of this and working with all of these experts and researchers, what was the most surprising fact or truth that was uncovered as somebody who already was steeped in this science? I would say the most stunning is that the carb is that plastic recycling is as a fraud, intentionally invented to trick us. It is chemically

impossible to have blue bins filled with plastic be recycled. And almost everywhere, they're just put in the incinerator. And all you've done is make the incineration more efficient. And said that baldly, people are sort of amazed. And then the next day, they will still put plastic in the blue bin. So no blue bins at the at the Golden House. Well, in half the Golden House, they're

blue bins. And then the other one, just a surprising trivial fact, concrete is 8% of the problem. Right. Blue me away. Yeah, you have those like four seas at the beginning of the book. Yeah, I had no idea. I thought that was fairly benign thing. Concrete is cement heated to more than 2,000 degrees by coal, usually, to make concrete. And so we got all these coal

plants that are belching carbon into the air. It's like crack cocaine for the atmosphere so that we can make more concrete. And the good news is there's an incredible innovation in that space. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's all these new building materials that are actually better, lighter, more structurally sound, that obviate the concrete problem. And as soon as we start charging the right price for coal, it

will just happen instantly. But right now, there's still entities say, yeah, but it's cheaper to do it the old way. Robert Downey Jr. just built this new house and it made the newspaper out here. It made the news. And it's like, I don't know what the name of the building materials are, but it's kind of like this curved structure. It's very kind of Flintstone meets the

modern age kind of thing. But apparently, there's something about it. I should know more. If I'm going to talk about it, I don't know that much about it. But my friend, Darren, is also using the same materials to build a home right now as well. And it's completely carbon neutral. Yeah. And we don't think of our building. We know about lead in green buildings and all

of that. But it's not immediately obvious like why building a building would be a problem. Yeah. So here's a great systems example. In my little town, leaf blower is against the law six months of the year. And the reason is, one hour of using leaf blower, put out as much carbon as driving a Toyota camera from L.A. to New York. That's not by true. And they're

noisy and they're not good for the people who are using them. So systems idea number one, it only took 20 people in my town to get them banned. Pretty easy to get a band like that pass because people can get a lot more than an electric leaf blower. It's no big deal. Number two, the lawn contractors in my town persist enforcing their underpaid, under respected workers

to use gas leafblowers. They just, like, either don't pay the tickets or they paid the tickets. It's more convenient to keep doing it the old way. And if it's this hard to change leaf blowers, when it's so obvious about their problems and so easy to replace it with something that's quieter, better, and more efficient, you can see the scale of our systems problem. And the way

we solve it is by saying, guess what? If you're a contractor in town and you get three tickets, you don't have to permit it anymore. And then in one day, all the gas leaf blowers would be gone. Well, if we care, if you listen to this and you care, figure out how to get that law passed in your little town, once enough little towns pass the

law, they'll stop making gas leaf blowers. And we will move on to the next thing. Yeah, I mean, it's back to incentives. Right? Same with solar on our homes. If we had better incentives, more people would grapple with that and figure it out. Yeah. And no one wants to go back. Nobody says, oh, my house is filled with beautiful LED light. I'm ripping it out and

putting an incandescence. And nobody says, oh, I'm getting reliable solar power off the grid. I wish I could plug back into the coal plant down the stream. It's pretty clear that we have figured out a path. They're going to have test tube meet soon. So if that's your thing, you can eat real hamburger. All you want. Right? But first, we got to have forward motion and

systemic change, which comes from talking about it. And it's, there's a ticking clock. That's the other thing. Indeed. You know, so in the, you know, Robert McKee screenplay, like, where are we? Are we nearing like the bottom of the second act right now? Like, where do we find ourselves on the, the doomsday timeline? Yeah. No, we've, the inciting incidents are already coming gone. Right. That's, that's

page 10. Yeah. Exactly. So we're well past that. Exactly. You know, I think it's worth reminding ourselves that we're all going to die. Americans don't like to acknowledge this, but we're all going to die. So you're going to die in 10 years or 50 years or 100 years, but we're all going to die. So how do we live a life that we're proud of along the

way? And rather than handicapping, how bad is the earth going to be in 10 years or 15 years? I think what we have is the chance to shift our time frame and to say, if we're lucky enough to have all of the Bountiful Benefits that technology has given us, and we've got food on the table and a roof over our head, isn't our obligation to just

respond to that by making our time, our time horizon at least a couple weeks longer, as opposed to just what's on TV tonight? 100% 100% enrollment is, you know, we're going to be able to do that. So it's a big theme for you, right? And it seems like enrollment is germane and pertinent to this issue. So maybe we can kind of end this with some thoughts

about enrollment and how to get people more actively engaged. So enrollment is another word that's easily confused because you enroll your kid in school because you have to. That's the one I'm talking about. If you're a bus driver and your bus goes from here to Santa Fe, it doesn't pay for you to go up and down the streets trying to persuade people that they should go

to Santa Fe. Right? If somebody really wants to go to Bakersfield, they should get on a different bus. Your bus goes to Santa Fe. And we don't need a unanimous vote here. I'm almost any marketing plan, but including the one about our planet. All we need to do is be able to find the people who want to go to Santa Fe who are enrolled in the

journey, organize them, connect them, and amplify them. There's already a lot of things that are not enough that you can change the Constitution in the United States without a vote. If you build a nonprofit that sticks with their idea for 40 years, 40 years of sticking with it and sticking with it, then you get your justices and you win. It's not what's the crisis of today.

It's not about being a sl activist. It's this is the bus we're on. And so it's not going to take 40 years. What we need to do is shun the nonbelievers and say to people, oh, okay, not for you, but it is for these people. These people you respect, these people you want to be friends with, these people, who are leading, they're all getting on this

bus and the bus is going this way. Here we go. And if someone wants to get off the bus, they can get off the bus, because we can't force them. But what marketing is in this day and age is not that you have one third of the channels, viewers tuned to your channel. What it is is that you incrementally build how many people are on the

bus and you connect them to each other and then you amplify their work. And you empower the leaders. And the leaders need to carry themselves with a certain level of responsibility mixed with charisma and something about them that is aspirational that makes people want to get on board. That's right. And the good news is you don't need one leader, because it's not an election. All shapes

and forms. Exactly. You don't like Greta? We got Seth right over here. Well, I'm not belonging the same sentence. Well, I commend you for this really important work. It's really a beautiful active service. Thank you. You are a genius teacher. I aspire to your level of clarity in thought and your precision with language. It is the high watermark for me. And I have so much respect

for everything that you're about. The extent to which you make yourself available as a teacher, as a mentor, as a, as somebody who is a creator who thinks deeply about what the right thing to do. And it's what you do is and tries to make the world a little bit of a better place. That is your promise to the people that care about what you do.

And I think you're fulfilling in that promise. And I'm staring at this outline that's like 20 pages long. We got to about 10% of that. So I hope that we can continue. This was such a joy. Yeah. I can't wait to do it again. Maybe we'll have to do it by Zoom if that's okay. But I think I just have to go up to H.O.H. Okay.

We'll go out into the community. In the meantime, I would also encourage you to encourage people to check out the series of podcasts that you have done with both Tim Ferris and Brian Coppelman. Those are all wonderful. And we'll provide you with a background until we reconvene. And there's a hundred and two hundred episodes of a Kimbo with no guests. It's just me Prattling on. And

it's really, yeah, we didn't even talk about your podcast. That was in the outline. But I've been enjoying that. It's very different from most podcasts out there. They're sort of little, like, sort of mini-blog. Rants and thoughts and truths mixed in. And it's very entertaining. Thank you. Yeah. I really enjoy it. It's such a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Thanks, Seth. Cheers. Peace.

Tients. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at ritual.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, finding ultra, voicing change in the plant power way, as well as the plant power meal planner

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Peace. Plants. Namaste.