Robert McKee On The Art of Story & Why Stories Mat

The Rich Roll Podcast. Human beings are driven by stories. But what are stories? Stories are metaphors for life. Without story, life is unlivable. Well, stories can be the ones we tell ourselves about ourselves. They can be the ones we tell our friends and parties. But ultimately, stories are far more than just sheer entertainment. Stories and storytelling are actually an integral part of who we are. They

are part and parcel of what it means to be human. And as such, understanding story, deconstructing the art of storytelling, and studying its underpinning principles is an endeavor most worthy of our time and attention. And there's no one better. Literally nobody on the planet, no person, more expert, when it comes to the subject of story than Robert McKee. Stories are equipment for living. The full spectrum

of life beyond anything we could possibly live by the thousands. Robert is a modern Aristotle of story and a master of the form who wrote the definitive book on the subject called, of course, story. For those unfamiliar, Robert is a full-bright scholar. He is the author of five books on storytelling, including his latest action. But is best known as the most sought after screenwriting. And he

is the most sought after screenwriting teacher in the world. The wonderful thing about story is it's a museum. And you can go back to the greatest of writers. It's all there waiting for you. And every one of those great works is as valid today as it was when it was written. His students have collectively won 70 Academy Awards, 250 Emmy Awards, and 100 WGA or Writer's

Guild of America Awards. And also his student body and includes notable writers, directors, and actors such as Peter Jackson, William Goldman, arguably the greatest screenwriter of all time. Who else, David Bowie, Stephen Pressfield, front of the podcast, Diane Keaton, Julia Roberts, Jeffrey Rush, and all of the writers at Pixar. In other words, Robert McKee is a living legend. And it was a complete and total honor

to host him here in the studio on the cusp of completing his very last teaching tour. We discussed his friendship with Stephen Pressfield, who tagged along, which was really great. We talked about Robert's philosophy of teaching story, what stories are, why they're important for humanity. And so much more, including the absolutely incredible behind the scene story of how succession's Brian Cox ended up portraying the Oscar-nominated

film adaptation, which is one of my favorite movies of all time. And it's all coming up, but first, we're brought to you today by Squarespace. So I was just talking to my friend, Stephen Pressfield. He's the author of the great book, The War of Art. And he reminded me that we're all creative. We are all creators. Some of us are painters or poets. Others are moms

or executives or party planners. But we all have a singular uniqueness about us as Stephen would argue. And it is our obligation to share that uniqueness, that unique creative energy that we all carry with the world. We need to exchange it with the world. And because our world is digital, that means a website, a website made beautiful, highly functional, and affordable courtesy of Squarespace. With Squarespace

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And when you're ready to launch, use offer code richroll to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash richroll offer code richroll. Okay, you guys ready to go? Let's do it. But let's begin by typing interior podcast studio day. We're going to do a screenwriting software document, hit enter, and enjoy this unforgettable conversation with screenwriting legend, Robert McKee. Here it's

well-worn and faded. I think it was 90, I don't know what year. Yeah, I think it was 97 when I got this book. I got to when it came out. It was here. Yeah, and I dug it out today. I've read it many times. So you've rented space in my head for quite some time. And it's a pinch me moment to have you here. And we

also have steep press field here as well. I love the fact that you guys are friends. That makes sense to me. It's you guys together. We're here on the precipice of the conclusion of your career teaching these seminars. You've been doing this for like 50 years. 40. 40 years. You got a couple more dates and then that's a wrap. Yeah, yeah. I started doing these 40

years ago. And as of my early 40s. And it took over my life, put my life in a whole different trajectory. And this fall will be the farewell tour. This is the last time I'll do LA in New York London. And I'm going to do Budapest. The governments invited me there as has the Israelis. And so I'll be in Tel Aviv as well. And so that's

five, three days, four days. If I do journalists, the way we do here in LA in New York. And so I'm going out on a high note. On a high note. Yeah. I mean, how are you feeling about it? Is it bittersweet? Are you excited for it to be in the rear view mirror at the end of this chapter? And what is the next chapter? What

a call? I really can't say until it's over. And I look back and whether there be any regret. I don't think so. I know it's going to be sad. I mean, without a question. Half of my life has been consumed with this teaching. And I'm going to be in the middle of the day. Developing the seminars and not just on story, but on love stories and

crime stories and long form television, et cetera. And now what I'm doing is I'm writing story to. And I just just published, you know, a couple weeks ago, yeah, the action book on the action genre. Right. But the next one, they're going to take story, which is still selling. It's amazing. But it hasn't lost. It's a step after 25 years. And but I've learned a lot

in 25 years. And so I'm going to do story to, which will be a different angle on story. And I'm going to look at it, emphasizing creative spectrums. What does that mean? Every element that a writer wrestles with can be seen on a spectrum of choices. So you can be as minimalist as you want. Or as maximalist as you want. And every variation in between. You

can tell the whole story over a kitchen table between two characters, or you can do, you know, Game of Thrones. Right. Okay. You can be as realistic as you want. Or as unrealistic, non realistic, fantasy as you wish. And you can stretch reality from the most naturalistic to the most fantastic. And so every element of story can be imagined on a spectrum of choices. From the

most to the least, from the biggest to the smallest, to the brightest, to the darkest, the non it goes. Because what I want to convey in this in story to is choices. You know, I went out of my way and when I wrote story one to introduce the book and say, look, this is not a book on how to tell a story. This is a book

on what a story is. And you need to understand all the elements of story, the relationships and how they combine to create a story. And the possibilities are endless. Well, that's not how people often read the book. They want to be told how to. And so even though I say, I'm not going to teach you how to they still want to think, okay, right. So now

story to because I understand their desperate. It's monumental this task of making sense out of life and to do it in a way that has insight and power and beauty and moves us emotionally and makes us laugh. It's frightening when a young writer thinks I'm going to tell story. Sure. They want you to hold their hand and walk them through the process of the doing, right.

And you being a hard boy, son of a bitch, quickly disobeyed. And he's just those people of that idea. That only that only that only seems to encourage them to go, yes, he's being tough, but I'm determined. And so tell me how, right. So I decided in story two, I'm going to be very clear. There will still be people who will read it as a manual.

And then nothing I can do about that. If they want it to be a manual, then it's going to be a manual for them. I'm going to be very, very clear in story two that it's choices. And story two, like the books I've done on character and dialogue, after story one, I decided I'm not going to teach for screenwriters only. I never wanted to in the

first place. In fact, I had a fight with my publisher, Judith Reagan, Harper Collins. Yeah, iconic. Yes. Green of the best sellers over the title. And she wanted me to call it screenwriting. And I said, no, I don't want to call it screenwriting. I will use films for the most part as examples, because that's what people know. And I'll put screenwriting in the subtitle. But what

I want to teach a story. And I want to call it story. And so we did that. So story two will be for stage page and screen got it. So story two isn't. And upending of the principles that are set forth in story, it is story being, you know, the what and story two being a little bit of the how, but more an expansion of the

principles elaborated in story. I hope it's less of the how. You see, when you say to someone, this is what it is. These are the elements. These are the relationships they work together to create whatever. If I was teaching music, I'd say this is the way I'm going to do it. This is the 12 note scale. These are chords. Right. This is beats. This is rhythm.

Right. These are the components of music. You would never for a moment think that, Oh, now I can compose music. Somebody explain me the elements. If you were teaching painting, you say, here's this is the rule of thirds. This is perspective. This is the psychology of color. These are the components of anything that goes inside of a rectangle. And nobody would think, Oh, now I can

be an artist. But for some reason, when you say these are the components of story, people think, Oh, now I can follow that in some kind of prescriptive way. And now I can tell story. And what they discover is no, they can't. The mastery of these elements and conquering this form takes years, trial and error, success and failure. And mostly failure. And I think, you know,

I think that's the way I'm going to do it. And it's really, really difficult. And that's, you know, so they don't last. Right. The dilatants get weeded out. Right. Yeah. So story two is going to make it even clearer than story one. Just how, how much variety of choices you have in every single aspect of it. And I'm also going to use the clearest, simplest language

I can create. I want that one reader read. The book that just lights go on. Story is such an interesting terrain to explore. And very tricky and elusive, because story operates as part of the fabric of what it means to be human. Like everybody is familiar with story. We all are on some level, some version of a story teller. We tell stories about ourselves and who

we think we are. We tell stories to our friends. It is in so many ways. And we have a big part of what makes us human. And yet the deconstruction of what story actually is and the elements of it are very difficult to understand. You know, like, and there's a huge difference between, you know, the story you tell your friend and really mastering the form and

the art of what it means to tell a great story. So I want to dis abuse people of the idea that this is going to be a conversation just for screenwriters or writers. Like I want to talk more broadly about the story. About how story operates in our lives and why it's important to kind of understand story and, you know, how that relates to, you know,

the human condition. Stories are, first of all, metaphors for life. And so unlike music, which is only dealing with sound, poetry, which is dealing with feelings, painting, which is dealing with what you can see or imagine abstract or concrete. It's bigger than all that. And it's a metaphor for life. And so as complex and difficult as life is to understand, naturally, story, which is trying to

be expressive of life is needless to say difficult to accomplish. And I've gotten to a point now where I don't think we have a story problem anymore. What do you mean by that? I mean, I see the story. I mean, I see these wonderful TV series, not so many films. And I read some superb novels now. I mean, the great novels of boys been around. But

I see great storytelling, especially streaming long for. And so I think, you know, I think I've had some effect. I think I've helped. I hope I have. But it seems to me that the quality of storytelling, certainly on television, is better than ever. Yeah. I mean, it's unbelievable. What's happening? I mean, I'm reluctant to even call it television. I don't know what you call it now.

I know it's an old word. And it has all kinds of associations. But it seems to me that the quality of storytelling is as good now or better now than it's ever been. That's not the problem. The problem is content. How do you differentiate content from story, meaning there's a glut of non-quality content out there that makes it difficult to find the gems. I mean, the

signal in this. Why are we so disappointed when we go to the movies these days? Yeah. The movies are not about. Yeah. The real storytelling is in the long form where you can create so much dimension in these characters and allow a story to breathe and be told in the tempo that the story wants to be told with that space. And it's been remarkable. And like,

you know, I was thinking about how this has come to be. Obviously, there's technology reasons with streaming. And there's been an increasing openness on behalf of networks and studios to explore this. I mean, the BBC was doing this for a long time before it was happening in America. I have writers that I've worked with who write for HBO, for example. And back when HBO was just

beginning and developing, coming what it is, you know, the people that HBO realized that the network television had captured the family. And so in order to create an audience for HBO, they had to be anti-family. And so I friends would go in there and pitch stories at HBO. And the note they would get over and over again is not dark enough. Now, if you really want

to get a writer excited, give them that. No, not dark. Do you really mean that? Yeah. And they did. And now came the long form really developed first in HBO's setting the standard. The reason that long form television is become what it has. I think it's the future. I think that this century will see magnificent storytelling. And that these long form works will be the cathedrals

of the 21st century. And the reason that they're going to be the they are, it's a wonderful, so often. There's a lot of crap too, but still. What does the audience want? What does a reader want? What keeps them turning a page? What keeps them coming back episode after episode? What sustains, you know, some of the long form series are 100 hours. 50, you know, is

normal. Two things. Revelation. And change. And so they're fascinated as well. What would we just watch some wonderful series lately? Peaky blinders. That's finally got around what it was just crap. You watch this to see who these people really are. And so you see their surface and there'd be outer behaviors. And then episode after episode, you see their dimensions. And a dimension is a contradiction, a

consistent contradiction. In a character. So in one in one relationship, he's really kind. In another, he's incredibly cruel. And so he's both case capable of being both loving and gentle and vicious and kind. Right? Depending. Right. Does smart clever things that makes terrible mistakes and does stupid things. And so those contradictions create dimensions. And as you're watching the series, you see that these in long form,

these are not through. Three dimensional characters. These are 10, 12, 15 dimensional characters. Literally. And you sit there and study the character and you break down every single dimension within them over 50 hours. And you see that a three dimensional character is a supporting role. Yeah. It's so they people want to see that revelation. Yes. Who is this person? And so the complexity of characters long

form demands complex. Because you need to reveal who they really are over years to keep the interest and change. Is this character going to arc from where they started to where they end? And so we want them. We want to see how and why people change. Long form in order to sustain years of series has to have extremely complex characters, multi dimensional of the extreme kind.

And capable of change. That is so sad. Sure. It operates like a Russian novel, you know, in the classic sense. Well, I've looked at certain novels, Russian and otherwise. And I've said, if this was a series, warm piece, if it were a series would be season one. And that's all. Warm piece is just a six or eight principal characters, family relationships, love relationships, played. And it's

out against the background of Europe and turmoil. It's warm piece. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's only got enough material for one 12 episode season. And so even the most huge thousand page novels would be consumed inside of a long form series. Right. It appears to me that things started to change. The first real network show that kind of broke the most. And so the first real

network show was that the most enormous amount of what episodic television could be to my mind was lost because it was telling a longer story. It took big swings. It didn't always follow through or connect properly on some of those swings. But it was taking risks. And it was telling a longer story. And because it was successful. It was signaling to the networks in the studios.

Oh, that this could work. And then that is sort of matured in the cable universe or David Chase and Finn's Gilligan who are telling these long stories who understood on some level like that there was this broader arc and that these characters were going to land in a very different place from where they began. But with that also came the advent of the anti hero as

the protagonist, right, which is different from lost and has become a staple of serious dramatic long form storytelling. So, you know, what was the most important thing that I've ever seen? Why do you think like why have we embraced the anti hero? Why has, you know, the bad guy, I don't mean that in a perfunctory way. I realize there's multi dimensions to all of these characters.

But in a sense, you know, it is a different type of character that all of us as audience members have really gravitated towards and connected with, which feels different than prior decades. Well, the length helps in the size of the cast also helps. Because, where an audience places their empathy is in relationship to everything that's around it. And so what an audience or a reader enters

a novel or film or TV series, whatever, instinctively, they go in search of the center of good. They want some positive glow, some positive quality in a major character that causes them to think the thought, ah, like me. She's like, oh, I'm going to be a little bit more matured. Like me. He's like me. Okay. That positive glow at the center is in relationship to everything

that's around it. So like in the sopranos, if you surround Tony with mobsters, the FBI who's lying and cheating and whatnot, if you surround him with a darker, darker world, and you see that he's troubled that he has panic attacks. And he's terrified of, you know, the FBI is like, I'm not sure if he's going to be a little bit more matured. Something he doesn't understand.

The audience goes, ah, panic attack, just like me. These things, I have these moments. I have that. He's vulnerable. He's a gangster, but he's vulnerable, just like me. And so he becomes the center of good. Right? Because it's because your empathy has to go somewhere. Right. And generally these anti-heroes are living by a certain code. And that might not be the code that we would choose

for our own lives, but they have rules. Code to code. Yeah. And often it's, you know, family first or whatever it is. And it's very important that they not violate that code. And within the structures of that code, there is a certain goodness that you can identify or a humanity. Yeah. And somebody who has some code, as you say, there's something that they would risk their

life for. There's some standard that they would hold. Even if it's, you know, long before Tony Suprano, there was the Godfather. And we're used to empathizing with gangsters in that sense. I mean, Holly was done that for decades. And so you paint a darker world. You turn out a light in the middle of it. And there's some positive quality. Like I have a private code. And

we go, yeah, just like me, I too have a code. And so they, they empathize. With some, some, some, some really difficult complex troubling characters. I think that's, that's a huge part of it. Is that the writing is so good. They know how to sculpt the positive and negative charges. And it cast and create this glow at the middle. That's one thing. But I also think

since the 70s is society in general, slowly waking up. To what a corrupt world we live in. And I remember the first big surprise for me for that was Chinatown. So I think that the writers who are creating these great series like The Wire and six feet under, you know, great series of boardwalk empire, right? We're actually 10 years behind society. People always ask you know,

do writers lead society? Do they create things that people then emulate? Or do society, does it happen first in society? And the writers are attuned to that. And that's my point of view. It happens first in society. Because the forces of society are so Titanic, the culture and the economics and the politics of things are two. Two huge to be led anywhere. And so writers, I

think, are people who are very sensitive to what's happening in the world. And so when they, when they start showing the dark side, people responded positively to it. Because they already knew it was there. And they go, yes, that's life. That's who we are now. That's why you know, whatever. And that even to this day, or that audience that is willing to admit what a corrupt

world it really is, is limited. So here we are now in an era in which, you know, basically the anti-hero reign supreme. And culturally, and I was talking to Steve the other day, chatting with him about like what we might talk about. And one of the things that he brought up that I was, I think, is super interesting. And it's, you know, a big part in

the new book action is, you know, is about the ascension of the quote. It's not a quote for better or worse, like the bad guy. And we're in this kind of bad guy era. In many ways, you know, Trump is sort of a classic villain. And the narratives that we see being spun in popular culture and in politics are, you know, about what Trump is doing.

And we have Putin and all of these kind of, you know, they're like Titanic bad guys, right? And then some ways like how is that reflected in the writing that we're seeing? That Trump descended from heaven. And he's here to lead us. So what is going on? The other 70% are not so. But there's 30% of Americans who really believe that he is the hero, and

that man, the hero. Yes. And so, but yeah, the majority of people, to some degree, see it for what it is. When Trump was elected, and Michael Moore was saying before the election, he's going to get elected. He was calling it very early. Right. And he's, we're both for Michigan. And so is Michael Moore, right? Yep. And, uh, and I've always known this since I was

a kid growing up in the, in the suburbs of Detroit. Uh, I'm sure was the same everywhere in America, but as, as kids, we thought that abusive alcoholic fathers was, it's normal. But nobody ever said that. Everybody worshiped the family. Right. But in the, subtext, we all know that, that the worst time for your life is your childhood. But we denied it and denied it and

denied it. And it's society. The America's a wonderful country that though, you know, we just couldn't face it. But now it's out there to be seen and is so clear. And so I think story telling has responded to society's sense that we are not who we pretend to be. And I don't know why we ever thought we were. I mean, you know, living here in L.A.

Back, back when I used to play golf with some engineers who were working to take the, this military system of communication into the world that became the internet. Right. Right. And they were all excited about what they're doing. And they, it would talk about it constantly and over lunch and whatnot. Right. And it was fascinating. At one point, they asked me, you know, what do you

think? What do you think of this? I said, it's fascinating. And if what you guys are proposing actually comes true. It will be a perfect mirror of human nature. And they all smiled because these engineers had no idea what human nature is. And the internet, and social media are a perfect mirror, the pornography, the cruelty, the meanness of all kinds, crime of all kinds. And they're

able to do it anonymously. And so the internet has exposed human nature for what it really is. And they can get away with it for the most part because it's anonymous. And you see what, you know, what? Here we are. Sorry creatures. Here we are. And you know, and my feeling is that that's got to be a good thing because the truth is coming out, little

by little, but the truth is coming out. And people are going to have to live in a reality that they would, that they denied throughout history for the most part. Right. So you're saying basically that gives us a chance, the opportunity to actually reckon with it. And perhaps, you know, transcend it. Hopefully. It's a macro version of being in denial of the alcoholic father. Right. Exactly.

You just have to stop pretending. Right. This is who we are. And living in reality is in a Freud, Freud once said, he said, it's impossible to live in reality. He's a just try it. Try for one minute to live in absolute brutal rock bottom reality. For one full minute. And he said, within 20 seconds, you'll start to fantasize. It's just too awful. The mind can't

bear it. Right. And this is why we write stories. Well, what is reality? How do you define reality? We're all, you know, operating through the lens of our perception and our perception, you know, creates the, the epistemics, the heuristics. How we make sense of the world, right. And story really is the core functioning operating system for all of that. Like story is uniquely human. It's what

makes us who we are. And, you know, gives us this framework. Right. So let's go back to just defining what story is. And, you know, it's just, it's curious to me that, you know, story and humanity cannot be, you know, they're inextricably linked with each other. We're the, we're the one. Creature on earth that is really operating on story all the time. And stories are functioning

in very visible ways, but also in so many invisible ways. And, and all of that really dictates the decisions that we make and, you know, how we kind of function in the world. That will help you get toward what you want. Right. I mean, this is, is old is socrates that all human beings act toward the good, their perception of the good. The worst the people

act toward what they perceive to be the good or the positive. When somebody gets on a school bus with a jacket, dynamite and blows up all the, himself and all the kids on that bus, that person believes he's doing God's work. Okay. So all human beings act toward the positive. So you always take an action to create a reaction, which will somehow help you toward what

you want. Even if what you want, it's to make somebody else feel bad. Okay. So you insult people because it's satisfying to watch them suffer for a moment, right? Or you compliment them because you want them to do whatever, right? How do you know what to do in order to cause a reaction that will get you a step toward what you want? If you only had

your living experience, you wouldn't know what to do. You'd be paralyzed. You wouldn't know what to do. And so how do you know what actions to take in life to get what you want? Because you have been told stories in your child. You have read stories as a child. You have seen them constantly. And by the tens of thousands of stories from everything from, from TV

commercials to, you know, crime and punishment, that whole stockpile of story is buried in your memory and gives you a sense of if I do this in these circumstances, that person will take an action that I help you. Whatever. Because life without story, life is on. We take it. It's terrifying, unlivable. You wouldn't know what to do. Right. It's giving you this framework. But I think

there's also something unique about story in that. It tends to, like a story well told will live rent free in your conscious or unconscious mind in perpetuity. Right. Like what is it about a great story well told that can, that can just impact us so profoundly as opposed to the imparting of the information. Like you can say to somebody, and this is kind of like, you

know, what I do here on the podcast. Like some people, they're an expert in something and they'll come in and they'll say, here are the five things you should be doing every day or something like that. And you could take that information and some people might even act on that. But that's very different from somebody who comes in and tells an incredible story in which those

tenants or principals are conveyed that will live with that person and have a much more profound effect and also more likely to actually get them to change their behavior than a listicle or some bullet points or a PowerPoint or what have you. So, you know, from that, you know, I'm always trying to like, you know, default to storytelling over just the information. And I can't help

but like wonder like, like how did we evolve to learn in that way such that. And a neuroscientists have been looking at this for at least 40 or 50 years now. And what they've come to understand is that the mind is a story making machine. The mind takes its experience at every moment and is narratizing everything that happens to it. And so it's understanding of reality

is based upon the stories that it is told itself. It's why we human beings are able to rule the world as we do is because we can take raw experience. And first of all, we look into the subtext and ask the question, why? Why did that just happen? And your mind penetrates that and says, if it recognizes, there must have been a force in there. There

must have been a need. She wanted this. He wanted that. This business wants that. The government wants that. There's these desires going inside. And they're motivating these behaviors. And these forces are hidden underneath. And then they they manifest themselves in a behavior. But if you track back to it, you discover the reasons why. No other, no animal ever asked why only human beings ask why. Right.

And then human beings like that little annoying five year old. This is why they're not. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? The major question out of the mouth of kids is why they want to understand causality. They want to understand how one thing causes another. How that effect then becomes a cause that causes triggers another effect. And they want to understand the interconnectedness of life. They want

to understand why stories express why at the end of a story, you understand if it's well told, why these characters these metaphors for human beings did what they did. What they wanted, why they wanted it, how they went about trying to get it. And so the story educates you on the housing wise of things. Perhaps most profound of the stories that impact our lives for better

or worse are the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves. We're all walking around with some version of a locked in narrative, right? That either liberates us. Or in prisons us, probably in prisons us, you know, and probably is working in disservice. But how do you think of that? No one has self deception. Yeah. None of these stories are true. Whether they're good or bad. They're

all illusions. The true in the sense they're not, they're not factual. Yeah. They may have a real truth in them, however, about why we did what we did. But yes, trying to make sense out of our own life. And we go back with regret often. Why did I do that? Why didn't that work? Why did I feel it that or was I just lucky? I mean,

we're trying to make sense out of our own life. And so we tell ourselves stories out of our memories. And the stories that we tell ourselves are very selective. Yeah. And deceptive. So what's the story that you tell yourself about yourself? Some years ago, I was lecturing in Spain and a journalist there asked me a question. Nobody had ever asked me, which was because I'd probably

by this time I'd been lecturing for at least, you know, 25 years. And he asked me, why? Why do you do this? Why do you travel? You know, you must have made enough money by now. Why? Why do you keep traveling the world? Trying to help people compose insightful, honest stories for page stage and screen? Why? Why do you do this? And I had to think

because I had never until he asked me that question, I had never really thought to ask myself that. And I said, well, very little in life, very little is meaningful. It's random. Far more random than we want to believe. But meaning is a function of choice. You can attribute meaning to something that we give to something else. Yeah. It's as what I was saying was there

is no intrinsic meaning to life. It is a biological accident that occurred on this planet. Maybe others, but there is no intrinsic meaning. That doesn't mean it's not the same thing as saying life is meaningless. There is no intrinsic meaning. But you as the existentialist used to teach, you have to find your project. You have to find your project. You have to find out what gets

you up in the morning, what's your purpose in life? You have to give your life meaning and you have to do it yourself. If you wait for other people to do it, you will live an invalid life. It won't be your life. You'll be leading other people's lives. And so I thought, you know, I said, there's no intrinsic meaning. And so what is my meaning? Why

do I do this? And the answer that I gave him was this. There is no. intrinsic meaning in reality and life. There is, however, suffering. That's real. Human beings suffer. All living things suffer. That's what it is to be alive is to suffer. Anything that a person can do to alleviate the suffering in others is a good thing. A positive thing, a meaningful thing. Stories do

exactly that. They make life livable. They help alleviate the suffering because great, great suffering comes from confusion, from just not understanding things. I don't know why. I don't know why. Why is this happening to me? Who am I, et cetera? Those are terrifying things and you suffer in that confusion. Right. So it's providing this map of meaning that is giving you an explanation or a better

understanding for your own personal struggles. And also making it a shared experience. Like if you're relating to somebody else who's gone through something analogous, you don't feel quite alone or that your experience is unique from your fellow man. Yeah, it's not a question of stories. Don't tell us what we should do. It's a difference between ought and is. We ought to do things when we have

ideals. We understand. We have certain standards that we want to achieve. We have ideals and we ought to live up to our moral ideals, artistic ideals. Right. We ought to. But then there's is. There's what is. And stories, great stories, make what is clear. They don't tell you what you ought to do. Lord of the flies. There's a magnificent novel about human nature. But it doesn't

tell you what you ought to do. It just says, this is human nature. This is what is. Right. Right. Right. Right. And the more you understand what is, the less suffering you go through because you're living in reality, you're living in the is rather than the ought, you can still have your ideals and aspirations. As long as they're not, you know, full of hope. Right. Well,

extrapolating on that idea of, you know, suffering as as being fundamental and, you know, a primary aspect of, of human condition. I've heard you speak many times about, you know, the idea of life being a struggle, right? You bristle at this notion that described life as a journey. And I want to kind of understand this a little bit better. And perhaps, you know, you can indulge

me in pushing back a little bit. Why is it not a journey? So let's, let's deconstruct that a little bit. That's a journey is a California word. And there, you know, there are many share. You know, you, you, you just can't tell anybody anything in California. You must share it with them. Well, here we are in California. Yes. And we're going to, we're going to share

way, but that's not how people use it. They, they use it as something else. As a youfemism, you've developed that resilience of crisis that made us fully competition and catch up to that, you know, gained confidence in that soon and behind, you know, the yeah, what we need to do is we all have a digitized response that, uh, what do we get into that dysfunction about,

I mean, right. So that's exactly what I really think. Uh, how we until we talk about social government, the voting process, the election freelyily will be denial as as psychologists pointed out since forever, denial makes the world grow out. And journey is a word that makes it possible to deny the truth. If you say life is a journey, a journey, is you get on a bus

in Cleveland, and it takes you to Chicago, and you sit there watching the countryside go by. That's a journey. Life is not like that. It's a struggle. And it's a, it's a fuss in that rock. Yeah. But it's also all the beautiful colors of the rainbow. Like here's my point. And like, let me just, let me just, let me just, let me just finish this thought.

So I do think journey is a broader term that, you know, struggle is very quantitative and, and, and, and somewhat reductive in a negative sense. Like struggle, of course, is part of the journey. It's an essential part of it. But doesn't the word journey also make room for the spectrum of, of experiences from joy to love and celebration and heartbreak and setbacks and conflict? It's all

of it, right? Like this is that journey is how people use the word. Okay. I'm using it to avoid. I get your realization that it's a bitch. Uh-huh. It's not easy. It's hard. People are terrible. Much of the time. You have to deal with people. You know, I mean, what, what are the, what are the best things that come out of the pandemic? Because people are

now working at home and they're so pleased to be working at home. Why? Because they don't have to be around other people. Uh-huh. It's as simple as that. Right? And so, yeah, I know, I know. But I teach writers. It's very important for my point of view that writers use a truthful, precise language that they do not indulge in euphemisms because if they use euphemisms in

their own mind, how can they possibly interpret reality in an honest truthful way and celebrate it when it needs celebration, lamented when it doesn't, right? But if writers use words to separate themselves from reality, how in the world could they ever write anything that would bring the audience to the world? So, you know, I mean, I don't have a reader into contact with reality. And so,

that's why I get, you know, I get, you know, pee-fish. I know. It's boring. No. It's not boring. I love that. I mean, I think there's a, it's, it's not idle. I mean, there's a, I don't like the word Hope. Much. Hope is the denial of reality. If you really think about the possibility of me achieving what I want to achieve, what, what are the odds?

I mean, there's a possible you could get what you want. But the chances are you won't. Or be- It's also the engine of tackling and, and overcoming obstacles, right? You can't face dire or tragic circumstances without some, you can't get into action without some sliver of hope that you'll be able to navigate it and get to the other side. No, there's a difference between expectation and

hope. And anticipation and hope because if people use the word Hope in the same way that they use the word anticipation or expectation, I'd be fine. Sure. Right? So, when people, when people are, are going through hell and then somebody says, well, there's always hope. Right. No, I can't understand that. You know, that's, that's greeting card bullshit. Yeah. Right. I understand what you're saying. I mean,

fundamentally what you're getting at is honesty, right? Like, how can we strip away artifice and really, you know, pull the covers on reality and, you know, use writing and story as a means of elucidating the human condition in its truth, right? And that's the core of great writing, whatever story it is you're trying to tell. See, if a writer is going to fault one way or

another, I would rather that they fault toward cynicism, certainly skepticism, then fault toward optimism, hope and everything's going to turn out all right, happy endings. Right? I mean, it's not that you can't have a positive ending if the characters earn it. They have to earn it. Yeah, that's the difference. Right. But happy endings. Ending earned and one that's saccharine and, you know, slapped on top of

it. And you leave like, maybe you do feel good. Did you watch the series left overs? Oh, I, I made a list because I wanted to talk about my favorite long form. Yeah. Uh, shows and that's up at the top. Like I just think in that ending. It's one of the great. It's one of the most powerful, beautiful endings of anything I've ever experienced in my

life. And those characters have earned. That love in that moment. And so it's a positive ending, but it isn't a happy ending in the Hollywood sense of the word. It is a positive ending. They've reached something worthy in their lives, something of real quality in their lives, but they've been through hell to get there. And it's, it's an honest ending. Positive and honest. Yeah. And so

I'm not against happy endings. I'm just against the sentiment telling who, who out there? There is, is really killing it. Like who in your mind is really doing the great work right now? What have you enjoyed or consumed recently that you think really rises above? I mentioned Peaky Blinders. I just finished that. I thought that was wonderful. But that's from like five years ago, right? Six

years ago. Well, I think the recent, the most recent season was recently this past year. Yeah. That's true. That's true. I, you know, when people ask that question, I tell you a series. That has stuck with me for the last year or two or whatever. And it's called Made. I don't think I've seen that. M A ID made. And I just loved it. And it did.

Okay. Got some nominations and so forth. It's about a single mom and her, her, I don't think they were actually married. I don't think they were. But they were. You know, living together is an alcoholic and abusive. And she takes her kid and she's never had a job. She's almost no education. And she's thrown into the world. And she gets a job cleaning houses. And over

the course of the series grows as a human being. Just figures out how things work. How she works. What's her, what are real values are she's got a crazy mother and other resident. And to it. And finally, she gets herself to college positive, happy ending. But she really earned it. And why does that series, you know, pop to mind when you ask that question, I can

only say that it's, it's wonderfully done. As usual, beautifully acted. But that's everything now. Many, many actors as a community of artists are 10 years ahead of the writers. I mean, tell me, turn on the TV. So you see these wonderful performances. And you say, where did I work? Where they come? But I think the reason it, it got me. So that's a world I don't

know. Single mom cleaning houses. The writing was so terrific. There's some scenes in there that deal with hoarders. I've known one hoarder in my life. A mother-in-law had some time ago. And they decide then some order decides to clean up their house, but they can't do it themselves. They mean they're not emotionally able. Right. So they got a cleaning company or a house is going to

be put up for sale. And so the realtor brings in a cleaning company to make that house. They're going to have a sparkle for the buyers. And the cleaners see what the previous owners, how they lived. And how they left it. I mean, there was insights there into lower middle class, middle class, lower class from an angle through the eyes of people who have to clean

up the mess that people leave. Based on a true story, based on a factual story. I'd never seen anything, I've never experienced anything like that. And so I thought it was terrific. And nobody knows it. Yeah, I know. I thought I'd seen all the great long forms out there. Well, it's not that long. I mean, it's one season. It's like eight episodes. All right. I always

hesitate over that question because you get judged by your answer. So if I like the Norseman, okay. Mayhem, right? People say, yeah, that's these. Right. You're going to get pigeonhole. I get it. I mean, I think the main two, you know, but I also like the Norseman. So it's the choices are wonderful today. I mean, the good fight. It's coming back. And my judgment, the greatest

TV series of all is Better Call Saul, breaking bad all time. More than sopranos, more than breaking bad men, all that. Okay. No. Now I say, Better Call Saul is the greatest TV series I've ever written. Okay. And then somebody turns on episode one, my recommendation. And they find this crazy Jimmy McGill in his mean spirited brother and all the rest of it and just boards

them to death, right? And then they're going to say, well, who is this expert? Mickey? What the hell is he? No, I'm, you know, so I just say, look, explore, get Netflix and HBO and prime and, you know, the usual who, who do all the usual suspects and go looking. Mm hmm. And something captures you. If it really works for you, you're going to have a

quality of experience, a depth and breath of experience in long-formed television that no human beings ever had prior to the 21st century. Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing. This is, this is what we're creating now is breathtaking. And it surpasses in its density and its look. And it's complexity, powers, much of everything that we've ever, you know, there's still Shakespeare and there's sure. Sure. I mean,

it's, yeah, it's where all the talent and the great work is happening right now. For sure. But now we are very fortunate to live in a world where the quality of an insights into character insights into society. What's right and wrong with our society. I really astute. And I can't keep up with it. Yeah, there's too much. It's too much. All the foreign language. Yes, if

you start looking, if you, you know, if you're willing to read subtitles and you see all the stuff that's coming out of Denmark and Sweden and, uh, Morgan, Libero from France was unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, let's shift gears here a little bit. I mean, when you, you know, with all of the amazing writers that you've mentored and worked with over the years, I mean,

I think that's what I'm going to say. To your mind, what distinguishes good from the greats, like when you think of William Goldman, who was a student of yours and as a friend of yours, like what makes him that much better than someone, you know, just 10% less successful. Like what is the edge? It makes the great people great. It's talent. And what is that? How

does that translate? What are they doing? I cannot. I, you know, I teach. What I teach people take it and use it as they will. And the fact that certain students of mine are really the highest water is a question of talent. You know, you can define talents really simple talent. Creative talent is the discovery of the third thing. A talented person over on the right

side of their brain, they have a faculty, a creative IQ. You're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're not, you're not. Conventional IQs over on your left side. This is simplistic. But yeah. But the creative IQ is certain people have the power to discover the hidden connection between two things that already exist. But a third thing that connects them in a way no one else has ever thought

before. So what would be an example? Anological logic. Example I often give in classes that little point. I'm the tree in junior high school. I think it is called the fog. Carl Sandberg's the fog. And there's a phrase in there. This is the fog. I think it's moved. I forget. But the fog moved in on little cats feet. Fog is weather. Cats feet. Is an animal.

There is no necessary relationship between the fog. But Sandberg found a relationship between fog and cats feet. And when he puts it together in that simulate like cats feet, a third thing is born into the world, which is the relationship between fog and cats feet. That's creativity. It's analogical logic. It's the discovery of the hidden connection. It's a delusional to think that you create from nothing.

And when the cat is cont ated, we say that stuff is the same, right? And we also say this because. So we are actually maybe like humans. Right? Yeah. When you contemplate that and not only elevates like the the visceral experience of that, you know it innately like, Oh, yeah, that is what it is. It's really fresh and true. And that's the one they use. And

so it's not as if these, these tropes of language just fall out of the brain. Most of what falls are the brain is worthless. You knew you have to have taste and judgment is to know what's so how do you think about how do you think about the idea of the muse though like the unseen, you know, inspiration and the mystical art of, you know, drawing

down upon imagination. I find the tension in your, in your, you know, he wrote that wonderful book, The War of Art. And I wrote the preface to it. And is publisher asked me to write the preface to it. And, and I said, I think it's a wonderful book. It's a beautiful book. But I can't buy the muse. And is publisher said, good, because neither do I.

But there is talent. And it is subconscious. And so it seems as if it's coming from outside of you, descending from above whatever metaphor you want to use. Right. But the voice is coming from you. It's you. You're doing this. Nobody else. And if it's a mystery to you, it's because it's subconscious. And, but you know, as well as anyone that, that many a great artist

will say, I didn't create this thing. It kind of came through me. Like there's this idea of being, you know, present. You have to understand receiving. You have to understand the marketing of artists. Right. Uh-huh. They want to appear mysterious. We all know anybody who's worked knows that if you keep 10% of what you write, it's, it's remarkable. More likely something like five or two or

whatever. It's a tiny, tiny percentage of what comes through you that you actually keep. And so they know that, you know, when, when what is it to write? What is it actually like? It's. It's terrible. You sit down. It's a terrible. You sit down. It's a piece of paper. Okay. Or screen on your computer. And, um, he's saying, she says, and you're not got a scene.

Takes maybe 10 minutes. Then what do you do? You read what you've written. And as you read it, you could take it. Oh, that's terrible. I you know, as you knew, he wasn't in that way. And then you go back and you rewrite it. And then what do you do? You read it again. What works? What doesn't? And most of it still doesn't work. Maybe one

or two things. You keep. And then you go back and you rewrite. And if you, if you had a stopwatch at your key bed, the way lawyers do, and kept track of how much time do I spend actually writing a scene? And how much time do I spend critiquing it and playing with it and then rewriting it, the time you spend critiquing and analyzing is 10

times the time you spend critiquing and analyzing. The time you spent writing it probably more than that and probably much more than that. I mean, you know, we've all, you know, written one paragraph a day, right? And, and to come sit down the next morning and go a piece of shit and out that whole paragraph, you just been a whole day on gone. But if, if

you tell people that. If the writer said you have no idea how hard it is, man. I spend maybe, you know, 20 minutes a day. Creating something that that I didn't spend the next 10 hours savaging. And I often just don't know the whole thing out and start all over again. It's really hard work. It's gutting, you know, it drives you crazy. Your guts are in

a knot all day long. And that's why we drink. Right. Right. If you actually said that to people. Okay. Nobody wants to hear that. What they want to believe is that they were walking down the street. And it just descended out of the ether. And to me. And through me. And it, you know, I get that. I mean, there's a workman like wood shedding of, you

know, that that dispels the romance and the, you know, mysticism of the whole thing. And the vast majority of writing is painful and hard. And, you know, boring. And, yeah, and boring. And, and lonely and all of that. But there are those moments of inspiration or temporary flow states where there's a sense of, you know, of ease about it. Of course. Of course. And you celebrate

those and you go, you know, at the end of the day, if you've got a decent pass at whatever page that you're working on. And you read it, you go, that's not bad. You know, that's a good day. Yeah. I lectured. I teach and I write for writers. And if anybody has to be honest about it, I do. Yeah. I can't invite people into this world.

Somebody decides, I'm going to be, you know, get out of college. I'm going to be a writer. They have to be willing to fail for the next 10 years. That's 10 major works, 10 novels, 10 films, 10 plays, 10, whatever, at least one a year, at least one year. For the next 10 years, and nobody wants them. That's real. And I cannot pretend to my students.

That you're going to have success by just following this, do that one thing or another. And, and it'll, you know, it'll flow. It'll just come down to you and you, whatever. Right. No, I get it. And I think, you know, that's a big piece in the success of the seminars is the fact that you tell it like it is. Like this is the truth of the

matter. This is a very difficult road. I'm actually restrained. Are you? Well, that's a good segue into. I'm actually restrained. I wanted you to be very gentlemanly here and reserved. And, you know, that conjures the scene and adaptation, which, you know, upon seeing that made me intimidated to meet you here today. Because that, you know, iconic scene sort of precedes you. Can we talk about adaptation?

I mean, first of all, one of my all time favorite movies and, and that sequence and your persona being rendered by Brian Cox. So brilliantly in that movie, just, you know, lives with me. It's incredible. Right. And I know there's a great backstory here. Can you tell that story? Why Brian Cox? Is that the, well, just, you know, how did this whole thing come together? Yeah.

Oh, God. I know you've told it. Yeah. Yeah. I, um, um, phone rang one day. And it was a producer calling from New York, Ed Saxon. And, um, he said, we, uh, we have a problem. And I thought they wanted me to script doctor, right? Mm-hmm. We have a problem. I thought, what's the problem? He said, well, we've got this writer, Charlie Kaufman. And he's, he's

written a screenplay and made you a character in it. He has freely stolen from your lectures and your book without, obviously, permission. And we don't know what to do. Well, you know what to do. You know, we had to call you and get you on board. I said, I said, yeah. I said, uh, I, you know, send me the script. Mm-hmm. So I read it. And,

um, was that the first, had you, did you know Charlie Kaufman before? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He didn't know what his, no, particular flavor of, right. And, um, and I can see that what he wanted me to be is the villain. Right. And he perceives Hollywood as the villain and Hollywood is a formulaic. And, um, and he perceived me as formulaic

and insult to his great of genius. Exactly. But I also realized he needs a villain because otherwise the screenplay sucks. Right. It's just, you know, it's just a, uh, masturbation about how awful it is to be a writer, the stuff we were just talking about. And, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, and very importantly, the third act sucked was awful. So I called Ed Jackson back

and, um, I said, I see what he's up to. And I, you know, I see your concern because, um, if you go ahead with this project, I will sue you for everything you've got. Maybe, and clearly, this is since Michael Reynolds too, that maybe, uh, uh, you, uh, he did that work. Um, I know. Maybe he did that work. Yeah, and I don't want to know

how, uh, um, and that's that's a SCP movie. I think you know, I think you can actually see that in sort of an extreme way. Uh, he did that work, uh, uh, uh, he said it too. Uh, but I know I think decks never save it. Jace International, um, or he, uh, like what content is he's up like bread or something like that in a category,

like, um, uh, criticism, uh, kiji. Uh, uh, um, um, uh, um, um, um, uh, um, um, um, okay. Cut. Okay. Christmas is a damn obscure. Uh, um, yeah. So we kind of vets great and a lot of, uh, uh, uh, um, um, um, um, you know, Charlie Kaufman is a fascinating guy in that, and as many people like him, he's trying for the impossible. He wants

to have a commercially successful art movie. He wants art and money. I respect that though. And I would argue that he succeeded. He succeeded. I get it. I get it. I mean, some of the, not all of them, you know, I mean, uh, I'm not that, like, you know, but, you know, but he pretends he only wants to be an artist. Uh, in fact, he knows

how they would work. He knows if he doesn't make money, he won't, he won't be working. And so it's a bit hypocritical, but, you know, yeah, pretentious. But that's okay. I said, okay. I said, but, you know, I said, so we're going to have to have meetings. Uh, huh. So art imitates life imitates art. Yeah. Like what you're doing in the movie, you're now doing for

the movie. Yeah. Well, you know, before I decided to go for it, go with it on my conditions, I, I talked to two people. I called William Goldman. Mm-hmm. And I said, Bill, they won't, they won't make me a character in a movie. And I, uh, he said, let me just interject for a moment, apologies. But for people that don't know, arguably the greatest screenwriter of

all time wrote, which cut Cassidy, all the presidents, man, marathon, man. Yeah. Go ahead. Certainly. The greatest writer of dialogue, sir, in the history of the movies. And he said, don't do it. I said, well, they're going to give me permission on the casting. He's already. Uh, huh. Yeah. Okay. Who do you want? I said, uh, uh, Gene Hackman. Mm-hmm. He's, okay. It'll be Gene Hackman

with a big pink bow around his neck. He said, Bob, they're out to get you. Yeah. No matter how you slice it, you're going to end up. They're going to get you. If you let them, they're going to get you. Don't do it. So then I called my son. I said, Paul, he said, do it. But William Goldman says that, you know, he's a dad. You're

going to be a character in a Hollywood film. In fact, I'd already been a character in one film called 20 dates. He's going to be another character now. And then in a major Hollywood film, he said, no matter what, you know, you know, do it. You'll love it. Do it. And, uh, so then I called Saxon back. And I said, you know, I have to have

cast him. Whatever. And we have to have writers meetings with me and him. And we're going to be a couple of times. We've got to find a third act that did. And the third act that they came up with, I said, okay. But I knew only half the audience would go with it. When it pivots towards his brother's version of what a good story is lifted

from what he learned in your seminar, basically. And then I thought it was fantastic. Yeah. But I think it's one of the great third acts. Well, but I mean, it's certainly unique and unlike anything you ever can see. I tell you where the dividing line comes in that moment that Merrill Streep's character, Susan Orlean says, we're going to have to kill him. Right. That's the Rubicon

where it all changes. Half the audience went on. And they just didn't leave anything after that. But they're missing it. I know. I agree. I agree. It just becomes so absurd. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, what, you know, what? But what was that like working with Spike and Charlie? Oh, they were great. They were great. They're, they were great. And, um, they, they didn't argue because I,

but that was, it was their idea to make that pivot. And you just help them craft that so that it would. No, they, they, they wanted the, they wanted the ending. They first sent me. Uh-huh. And I said, no, that's out. But I sat down and I explained to them why? And they're reasonable people. And they sat there. Oh, yeah, I suppose. Yeah. And, and they

said, or you can do it without me. And if you, you know, if you, if you, if you, if you put, if you put me in the, if I do not approve the last act, and you put me in that, then you will be faced with a lawsuit that I will win. So they tried to do it without my character. Uh-huh. They sent me that draft

without my character. And it, and I said, I'm going to do it without my character. And it really sucked. So then they came back and they said, yeah, well, you know, you, we have to have you in this, I said, well, then my conditions stand. They need to find a third act that works. And so I said down with them. And I gave notes. And they,

they didn't argue. They do very not plight and listening. And, um, I didn't tell them what to write. And Brian Cox was your casting choice. Well, you know, what happened was, um, I said, um, I can't tell you who you must cast. Because who knows whether that actor is available. I said, um, but I want you to give me that. I'm going to be a cast.

I'm going to be a list. And, um, what I needed to know was their casting philosophy. For all I knew, they saw for the McKee character, this could be the Dan Acker Roy, Danny DeVito School of Castic, right? And so I said, send me a list. And it was the top 10 British actors of the day. So you were on the same page tonally. I had

no, I didn't, I've never imagined myself as Michael Kane. But you need that, that gravamant. Well, I saw what they were after. I saw what they were after. And, um, Brian Cox's name was not on the list. And I said, okay, I see what you're after. Okay. Um, I would like you to audition Brian Cox. And they said, who's Brian Cox? And I said, he's the

best part of the actor you don't know. Yeah. And so they went to London, and then they dorkchester come in the suite. And they within two minutes, they knew it. It, um, it was perfect. And why Brian Cox over Michael Kane? I'll tell you actors. Wonderful actors. Like, I mean, on that list, Michael, this was Christopher Plummer. I mean, you know, it was incredible. Um, when

they're playing a, uh, an antagonist, there's always this subtext of love me, love me, love me. Yes, I'm a bad guy. Yes, I do terrible things, but my heart is in the right place. Little, a little, uh, break, uh, break, the fourth wall, wink. It's, I don't have to do the, no, they're too good at that. They wouldn't know that they wouldn't, they wouldn't, they wouldn't

wink. They would be, they actually would be, but they're concerned. Yeah. S thing going on, a certain, suffering, a certain whatever. There would be the love me thing. And as, as wonderful as those actors are, that, for me, that would be fatal. I do not want my students to love me. I want them to respect me. I want them to learn from me, but I do

not want to be loved. I don't want a bunch of people chasing me around, you know, becoming, you know, my flock. I hate that. Mm hmm. I, I, I, I, I, I, I hate that you hate the word guru, right? I think it's a good idea. Yeah. Because it's an interesting thing. It's not an insult to them. It's not only an insult to me, you know,

and then the ancient meaning of it just meant teacher, but guru in the modern terms is somebody who gets, you know, innocent people to fall in love with them. It becomes a, yeah. Uh, and he milks them for all the money they can get. No, I don't want that. So yeah, I hate the word guru. And, um, I don't want followers. I don't want that. That's

a sick. It's a great relationship. You know, the, the, the mentor student thing. And that, if, if it goes to the point where the student can't write without the mentor there. Approving it or whatever. I mean, how you go to grow up and be a writer writer is somebody who stands out there. Right. And also, the, the, the audience is your seminars is populated with people

who've won Emmys and Oscars, who return and return and return. Yeah. So they're having like, these are highly accomplished people that are. And so the. And so the word guru not only insults me as a person who's praying on people, but it insults them as fools to be preyed on. When in fact, the tremendous amount of success and talent sitting in that room. And, uh, most

of my, most of my students are over 40 years old. These are kids. These are pros. Yeah. And, um, he's gonna drop the hammer. Well, you see it now. And you see it now in the succession. Yeah. It augured it augured Logan Roy in many ways. I mean, there's a lot of similarities in that portrayal. Brian Cox is a wonderful actor who does not do that.

Love me thing. And I knew Brian, a man, I'm up is a student of mine who came to lecture up in a Glasgow. And I knew him from, uh, his performances on the stage in the West End and, uh, small movies, cause I lived in England for 10 years. And so that's high new Brian, cause I'd seen him repeatedly, uh, on stage or screen. And he

was a student. And I, I watched him in a, in a play called, um, uh, skylight, David hair play. And I really admired that he's not asking for sympathy. And I could imagine another actor playing that character. Whoa is me and missing. I'm misunderstood. And I really, I mean, I could imagine him. But he didn't. And so anyway, that's why I Brian. Yeah. Iconic. I mean,

were you happy with how I came out? Oh, sure. You know, I took my son Paul to a screening. And imagine what, you know, it's, it's one thing for me to see myself portrayed. But imagine for a son, to see his father. And so after, uh, we went out to the parking lot and I said, so what did you think? And Paul said, Dad, he nailed

you. There you go. Yeah. Did you ever, uh, speak with Nicholas Cage about it? No, I've never met him. Yeah. It's interesting. Um, I love it. I think it's fantastic. And, you know, I'm, I'm a Charlie Kaufman fan and a Spike Jones fan. And that movie is a movie I probably revisit, you know, every year or so. Yeah. But when you think about master story tellers.

And I would consider both of those guys, you know, among that, that group. Often you hear, uh, about how they flex the rules or they're the ones that are breaking the rules. So it's back to this idea that's, you know, a theme and adaptation, which is the, you know, the structure is the bad guy and the geniuses are the ones who are operating outside of it.

And, uh, I think I want to hear your perspective on this because there's a lot of confusion I think around this. When you think about, you know, whether it's Tarantino or Charlie Kaufman, they are all operating within a structure that might allude the the average viewer. But in truth, they're all adhering to, you know, time tested tenants of good story telling. Sure. But the word rule

rules. Is another word like journey and other ones that I, uh, Steve techno. Yeah. I, I, I react again to see you. There is no such thing in art. There are no rules. There's a form. And the form has a purpose. There's a painting, for example. Almost virtually all paintings are rectangular. Why? Because if they're square or circular, it reduces everything to a symmetry. It's symmetry

has no tension. It's boring to the eye. All right. And so there's a, there's a form. The rectangular frame is designed to put objects in the certain lines of colors and whatever you're working with. There's a certain positions within that rectangle to create attention and that holds the eye moves the eye. All right. It's not a rule. Nobody says you have to paint in a rectangular

frame. It's a form. It's used for a purpose. It creates tension. And so people think that storytelling has rules. And I really, you know, I react against that. There are no rules. There's a form. You know, the life goes out of balance at some point. And that it when out of balance makes us wonder how and why will these characters, if possible, we store the balance

of life. And the story then is a struggle toward achieving that balance positive or negative or something ironic in between. And so throwing life out of balance and the, the conflicts, the conflict. The effort to put it back into balance is not a rule. It's a form. If life doesn't go out of balance, there's no story. It's a portrait, right? And so you can't say you

have to throw the life out of balance is a rule. It's just, it's the nature of the art form. It's the rectangular frame. It's, you know, the movement from imbalance toward balance is the rectangular frame of a story told in time. And, and I try to get, right, to understand that. Nobody's telling you how to write. There are no rules. If you write something that is

absolutely wonderful, no matter what, and intelligence sensitive people read it, your career will be made because it's absolutely wonderful. Right. Right. And you have captured something that is, that is compelling. How you do that, there's a form. And for thousands of years, this is how people telling stories have a shape to story. And there's certain elements that are constant. But you could do it like, you

know, like the, the film betrayal. You could tell the story backwards if you want to. But trail is told backwards. Right. And remember, trail. I don't know. I'm trying to remember. I don't think I saw that. But the first thing is a couple of years after they were a fair, where they were married, each married to somebody else, or she was married. And she says, he

knows her husband has this learned about their affair. Her husband is this. Is that character's best friend. And then it works its way back. And then he goes backwards in time. And to this film. And so boy meets girl. And it works beautifully by, it's an exercise in dramatic irony. At every point, we know more than the characters know. And so, you know, how, well, all

of these characters react, you know, what, what made this, how will they react when they find out what we already know? So it's so you can turn it on its head. In my, the book I wrote on character, I explored the whole spectrum of character, including radical characters from avant-garde modernists, postmodernist plays films and novels. Because that's choice. If you want to, you could write like

Samuel Beckett and you, you know, create absolutely radical characters. And I'm going to do the same thing in the, in the next book on story. I'm going to show on the full spectrum, which includes absurdist. Right. On the subject of dialogue, there are certain very talented writers who are super idiosyncratic in the way they write, like I'm thinking of mammoth, sorkin, again, with turrentino dialogue that

is incredibly poetic. But all of the time, I think that's really the most important thing to do. So I think that's also dialogue that very much draws attention to itself, right? Like you know a sorkin scene, like you, you know who wrote that scene. Yeah, well, when you hear. But when you say you, you mean I see people in the business. I suppose. But if you're

in general audience, in any form of general audience, the general audience would not know the, there's like a trademark staccato or, you know, mammothisms or the way the turrentino writes that they are the authors of those works. Because you don't want to suggest, Rick, that when people go to see something by turrentino or, or, or, uh, sorkin, that the average person, or the watches this, it's

saying the gloss, sorkin, um, uh, turrentino. They're not. They're, they're into the story. And you don't need. So with turrentino, even. Yeah, even with turrentino. That's interesting. But then I don't know movie, movie fans are fans. And, uh, maybe there is some of that. But the reason I call attention to that is that I wouldn't want somebody that I'm teaching, thinking that they should develop an

eccentric style of dialogue that calls attention to itself. That's what I'm, I'm getting at. It's one thing if you're a master. But other than that, it feels like Artifice and distraction that's being driven by ego. And you know, kind of look at me thing as opposed to, if it doesn't, yeah, if it doesn't work, it certainly does. But then the other side of that coin is

bad dialogue that calls attention to itself as bad. Well, there's no shortage. Like, sucks. Like, why are movies so bad? Robert, come on. Why am I so bad? So bad. Yeah. I mean, August was horrific. Um, the tectonic plates of industry. And yeah, the way which I have a, I don't know, I don't know how long cinema will last as an art form. I think that

in some time in the future, and I don't know how distant cinema will be like, then like ballet is today. It'll be a minor, esoteric artsy. I don't know, but it won't last. Um, there's a lot of, reasons film is so expensive that they they have to. You know the, they're, they're gonna spend $200 million. It's got to make a billion to be profitable. Literally, it's

going to make five times the investment to term a profit. And so you've got to think, I mean, how can I get a billion dollars worth of people to watch this thing? So the commercial imperative is driven. By the nature of things. And it's not like television or long form streaming. You're asking people to get up out of their house, get in their car, drive somewhere,

park, go to the movies, add a certain time, whether it's convenient or not. And so it's, it's got to be, it's got to be a subject matter in a genre that would be that's why I wrote this is action. That's why I wrote the book action. It is, you know, we're, it's a, it's a Star Wars Marvel avatar universe that we're all living in for better

or worse. Yeah. And, and the movies that are being made are movies that that massive scale that are either franchise spawning or franchise perpetuating. They're amusement park rides for, for the most part. Yeah. Yeah. And because they cost so much, they have to be that successful, which means they have to appeal to the largest possible demographic and they have to work in China and all of

that. And, you know, look, some of these movies are, I don't mean to be completely. And I love, I go see everything. I like seeing bad movies. Even if it's just an exercise and trying to figure out why they're bad or why they made certain choices. There's some wonderful action films. That'd be great. I think it's a great idea. I love going to the movies and

I, and I love a lot of these big movies, but it is interesting that action has be, you know, you just came out with this book action. Action is the domineering genre that monopolizes most of what we see in the, I don't know if it's domineering. Well, yeah. Okay. There you go. Yeah. But also action merges with crime. Mm hmm. Well, comedy now. All these big

movies. Right. War. And so action and our mixes with a number of different genres. It is, it's an all superheroes, but whatever. But I wrote that for people if they want to make movies. If they can master the form of action, mix it with other genres or do it in a pure form. They're realistic or fantasy to whatever. That's where it is today. And so I

would hope that we would see some good action. Because when it's good, it's great. I love it. Yeah. Me too. But television has sucked the audience away from, you know, going to the movies to see sensitive character complex. Stories on the big screen. Yeah. I want to see more movies like Michael Clayton. Those movies are not going to get made for the cinema. But while the

aperture is, is, is closing and constricting on what is ending up, you know, at the, the cineplex on Friday night. Meanwhile, in television, it's expanded, you know, beyond in terms of the opportunities. I mean, it's basically. And it's a trick. And. There is room for, I mean, you know, would Michael Clayton be made as a six hour Netflix limited series? Maybe, you know, but that's something

I would watch too. Right. But I want to see. I like my drama. Serious. I don't like comedy and my sci fi. I want my hard boiled shit. I like, I like stuff about, I like espionage and CIA and MI6 and all. You know, it's like. Yeah. Yeah. Those are, those are, those are long form. Should. There's not making, aside from mission impossible, like, you know,

you're not going to see that in the movie theater anymore. No, but it isn't only the movies. I mean, there's, you know, novels. Of course. Sell more, more people think that people have stopped reading. It's just not true. More, more novels are sold a red and sold today. They're sold and read today. Then ever. People spend more time, you know, I would there on their computer.

Read, reading novels. Yeah. Then the never or listen to the audio. Two more things I want to get into with you. And then I'll, I'll, I'll release you to your life. And, and one of those things is, you know, we've talked a lot about movies, the art and craft of writing, screenwriting, et cetera. Most people listening to this are watching this are not professional writers. Maybe

they enjoy the movies. They read, et cetera. So I guess what I want to get at is like, why should they care about story? What is the story important? Why is thinking about story and, and taking seriously the art of storytelling, something that is applicable to the average person? Stories, I think as we discussed earlier, are equipment for living. So why do we go to the

storyteller? Why do we read novels? Go to the theater, film, television. It's to give us a deeper and deeper understanding of what is the story. What is tragic and dark and painful, whatever to see the full spectrum of life beyond anything we could possibly live. You get to enter into worlds. You could never, ever. No. By the thousands. And so story expands your humanity. And it

also enriches your understanding. And so the story expands your humanity. And it also enriches your understanding. Of how and why people in the world do the things they do to equip you to live more successfully. The other is that the more you read, as you read, as you watch, when you go to the theater, try to challenge yourself as an audience or a reader. To read

or to experience to be an audience to something a little higher, better in some fashion, more complex, more difficult than what you just read or watched last month. And the wonderful thing about story is it's a museum. If you wish, you could go back and read the Odyssey or the Iliad. You could read the great plays written 2,500 years ago in Athens. And you can go

back to the greatest of writers, Mark Twain and Tolstoy. And it's all there waiting for you. And every one of those great works is as valid today as it was when it was written. But you're going to have to learn to read in that language. If you're going to read Mark Twain, you're going to have to have an ear for that lingo. You know, Edgar Allen

Poe, you have to have an ear for a whole different. And as a result, what I do today is just to save myself some time or to give myself some choices, I just pay attention to awards. The pure surprise, the booker, Emmys, why not? Right. You mean just as a gatekeeper to see who's right. Who, you know, and I look not for the winners, but for

the nominees. You know, you can go online and see, you know, what were the 10 novels nominated for the long list for the pure. The publisher for the booker prize or for the, you know, the, with bread and others. And it gives you some guidance. Otherwise, it's just totally random. So I do that. But just, you know, don't have to do that. But, but, you want

them to challenge yourself to experience more and more fascinating. They even if it's difficult. You know, and a really good film. A really good novel is worth seeing or reading more than once. Mm-hmm. Just like it's the same thing. The second time you see a really fine film, it's a whole other movie. Sure. Same thing with the novel. The second time you read a really fine

novel. You can't, you can't, you can't, what also depends on the phase of life you're in. We're forced to read, you know, a certain set of novels, you know, throughout high school and college. We're at a certain phase of life. Maybe we can connect with it. Maybe we can't. But, you know, now many years later, some of those themes that seemed irrelevant to you then become

highly resonant. Yes, they do. Yeah. Um, the theater is literally a museum. What sustains the theater is we've got all these great playwrights from Tennessee Williams and Arthur Miller and Lily and Helm and William and Janana of the 20th century, Eugene O'Neill. And the past Shakespeare first amongst them. And the theater keeps going, keeps alive by bringing them back these great plays from the past. And

you see when you watch Ipsen or Strenberg today, you watch a play like the father and you see the ugliest marriage in the history of marriages. Mm-hmm. And you're written in 1860. In 1890. And it's fearsome and it's shocking and funny, too. Right. There's a. It's always, it's always shocking to read something that's quite old and realize that it is as of the moment as anything.

And it just changes you. It changes you. The lesson everybody has to learn. Yeah. Is it nothing changed? Right. Human beings are human beings are human beings. And you know, I think it's a lot of things that I've learned. And they're not evolving societies, but human beings are not evolved. Right. We got the same hardware. Yeah. It's fascinating to me. Clearly you're super intelligent and insightful

and witty. And you have a sort of brash confidence about you. And we didn't even get into much of your background. But you were an actor. You were a theater director and a director. You've worked in many capacities in the industry outside the industry. You could have, to me, it feels like you could have become successful at any of these things that you chose. You could

be running a studio. You could have become, you know, a professional screenwriter, a director, a producer, et cetera. You make this decision to make your life about story. And I'm just interested in like, why did you make that decision? I found. I found it the best. Yes, I could have been. I was. I directed about over 60 plays. And they were very successful. And so I

could have directed in the theater. And then maybe moved on to film television, whatever. And spent my life doing it. And I'm sure I would have been fine. Here's what happened. I was a busy screenwriter in Hollywood. I sold every screenplay I optioned. Every screenplay I wrote. One of them I've optioned recently again for the fifth time. Hmm. Okay. It was written when in the 80s.

Wow. And it's been. Yeah. Yeah. People love it. People love it. And but they don't make it. All the television that I wrote got made. And so I could see my work on screen. And I recognized that, yeah, this is a quality and it's professional and it's it's fine. But it's not Ingmar Bergman. Hmm. Who in my judgment is the greatest screenwriter in the history of

the movies. And then but I discovered that by writing about lecturing and writing about writing. I had insights and I could make sense of things for people in ways others couldn't. And that that if I pursue that. I love doing it. And if I pursue it, I could be the Ingmar Bergman of writing about writing. Hmm. And so I I did what my instincts. Let me

do to do which is to become the best at what I can do. And so that's that's why I write about writing because I love doing it. And it matters. Apparently. So I'm. So I'm I remember that I made a choice. I can remember very clearly. I could pursue on screenwriting. And I'm not going to be able to do that. I was making a living at

a house in Santa Monica. You know, swimming pool, all that. And you know, maybe someday, you know, who knows? Do something special. But there was something about teaching and the interaction with students. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. And a new and different. It's it's really, it lifted my heart in the, you know, to to see their faces. Well, I'm lecturing and to see light bulbs going

on as they get it. And they, and they, and they little legal. They gasp at times, right? Yeah. Well, it is a performance, right? It is the other. You're writing. You're performing. There's jokes. You know, there's an entertainer. It's a fact for it. So, you know, it kind of pulls on all of those skill sets. Yeah. And they, and they, they understood it helps them understand

what they. I tell you the old, the pros who come in. And then they go into the lectures that are already, you know, successful. Not the least of which being people like Achiva Goldsman and like David Bowie took your class. Yes. Yeah. Who's great. That's unbelievable. David. You interact with them. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. He. Um, he was one of the best laughers that I've ever

had. I mean, the lectures are as you were playing out. You know, full of comedy. People are humor, humor, wit and, um, David Bowie just belly laughs. It was incredible. He, I mean, little is knees will come up to his chin. It left so hard. Did you see Moonage daydream yet? Mm hmm. Have you seen the documentary of Morgan's document? Oh, yeah. I've been thinking a

lot about Bowie because that movie is, is a work of brilliance you have. Is it? You know, yeah, it's incredible. It's truly incredible. It's a documentary. I mean, it's Bowie's life. But it's, I think, to coin like what Brett Morgan, the filmmaker, said about it, he was trying to make a movie about David Bowie. If David Bowie was making a movie about his life. So it's

a very surrealistic kind of sonic experience. That is nonlinear in any way, but, but which really conveys the sensibility of this, this artist. Yeah. I highly recommend you check it out. Yeah. But anyway, I interrupted you. No, no, no, no. Um, uh, he, he's the perfect example of what I was talking about. That, that, um, it's, it's very moving for me to see someone get it.

They're in their, you know, 30s and 40s, 50s or whatever, um, uh, often come to me on the break or after, and, um, and they're elated. And they say, I solved my script. I solved my novel at about 11 o'clock this morning because of, you know, and, uh, uh, and that's, yeah, I live for that. Yeah. Do you think about legacy at all as you're kind

of concluding this tour? Well, there's books, you know, there's books. And, um, and then, and all of my lectures are recorded. And, um, now that I've, uh, this is the last, this is, I say, you know, the farewell tour. So I'm not going to do live performances anymore. Um, and so now that people want, um, we've recorded everything. Right. And, uh, so all of that is,

um, out there for them. And the books, whether, you know, I've read all my books for the audio version. And they can read them or, you know, listen to them, whatever. Uh, but every writer who writes fictional nonfiction would like to think that what they expressed, what they had to say, will live on after them. Uh, no, I don't think about my legacy because I've already

taken care of that. I wrote the books. And that's, that's my legacy. And they will live on. Yeah. You know, story is now 25 years old, the book. And it sells as much or more today than it did 25 years ago. Yeah, I'm not surprised. So, um, if I had died right after I wrote story, it would still be doing what I was doing. Well, 25

years later. So I won't have any, um, I can't say I won't have any regrets because I mean, allow mistakes in life. But, um, when I die, I will die with a sense of satisfaction. I did what I set out to do. Well, I think that's a good, beautiful place to end it. Um, thank you. It really wasn't honored. I spend time with you. Oh, it

was great fun. It's great. I really enjoyed it. Best of luck with, uh, the end of this tour. I know you got a big day tomorrow. Um, so I appreciate you taking time. Everybody should definitely pick up action, the art of excitement for screen page and game. And, uh, don't forget story. Five other books. Yeah, you got dialogue. You got character. We didn't even get into,

uh, story, um, story and comics and the power of story and business and all of that, uh, maybe you'll come back and talk to me some more about that. But crazy respect for everything, uh, that, uh, you've done in the world. I think it's a great service. And it was just brilliant. Uh, thank you. Today's our Thank you. Cheers. Cheers. That's it for today. Thank you

for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation to learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today. Visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive as well as podcast merch, my books, finding ultra voicing change in the plant power way as well as the plant power meal planner at meals.com. and sharing the show or

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