Mel Robbins On Healing Anxiety, Marriage Therapy,

I deeply believe that you can heal generalized anxiety. I believe that through learning how to experience that alarm that goes off that is completely normal when you feel separate, when you feel invisible, when you feel slightly nervous, and learning how to give yourself the love and the reassurance that you didn't get at whatever moment it was that this alarm started going off sub five years old,

I think this is game changing. We let our feelings dictate what we do, and we have to do the opposite if you want to change. You have to lead with the actions that align with the way you want to feel. The research is conclusive that when you are critical of yourself, it destroys all motivation to act. And so if you have a bad day, congratulations. You're

breathing. You're a human being. Please do not beat yourself up. Shake it off. Look at your list and pick something you're going to do tomorrow. So, buddy, welcome to the podcast. My guest today, back for round two, is the ever inspiring one and only queen of grounded science-backed personal development. My dear friend, Mel Robbins. Mel is crazy talented. She's super authentic. And just has this knack

for cutting through the noise and the bullshit and telling you exactly what you need to hear to get off your butt and into action. And she does it with a smile. She does it with compassion. And wisdom born from a lifetime of both success and more importantly, epic failures. Mel is a former lawyer, turned CNN legal analyst, talk show host, mega bestselling author of the five

second rule and the high five habit. And one of the most widely booked public speakers in the world. And after absolutely dominating in the world of audible only audiobooks, Mel is now branching out into my territory. With the launch of her brand new podcast, aptly titled the Mel Robbins podcast, which immediately upon launch skyrocketed, no surprise to one of the top shows in the world. Mel

truly loves helping people overcome the patterns of thought and behaviors that hold them back. So much so that she begins our conversation by speaking some kind truce into my ear. And from there, we go deep into Mel's recent breakthrough in her struggle with anxiety. What she learned and experienced during therapeutic MDMA sessions, we cover marriage therapy, parenting, mindset and just tons more. And it's all coming

up quick, but first. Okay, it's always an absolute pleasure to spend time with Mel. But I have to say on this occasion from the moment she walked in, her energy was really different. And it made this conversation. Both truly special and uniquely powerful. So buckle your proverbial seat belt, open your hearts. And please enjoy this enlightening exchange with my friend, Mel Robbins. We're good. We're going.

We're ready to rock. Let's do it. What are you saying? Well, so I cannot believe you just said that you feel guilty about making people drive out here to your studio. It's a commitment. It's way out in the middle of nowhere. It's cool. I'm glad you're here. It's complete bullshit. First of all, you have this incredible platform that you have built. You have people that hang

on your every word. And it is absolutely like a gift that you're giving to people. So the fact that you would feel guilty about somebody spending 45 measly minutes to be able to come and have a conversation. It was probably more like an hour hardly. But it doesn't matter. I don't know. Stop that. Stop that. Yeah. Well, this is kind of like we're going to talk

about tangential issues around, you know, this kind of mental ailment. Yes. And so let me point out another one of yours. So this morning, I was looking on Instagram. And you put up the post about Zach Efron, right? Being a fan of your show. And you said I might take this down later. And all of your fans, I held back because I knew I was going

to tell you this in person, we're like, stop. that. I see it as you, demons, I see it as promotional at all. I see it as you, demons straighting, the reach of your show and the fact that the people that you have on change the lives of real people. And that has a huge impact on the world, dude. Well, I appreciate that. I'm going to click

now. I can clip that out and I'll put that up on Instagram. Let him. I'm now talking to Rich's team. Mel Robbins will drive back here and literally yell at everybody. I'm telling you, like, you are, you are humble, which I deeply admire. And it's something that, you know, I might not be sounding humble right now, but you and I share that sort of like aw

shucks thing because we didn't get into this in terms of podcast or writing books or doing what we're doing because we had some aspiration to become a celebrity. We have been sharing our stories because I think both you and I believe that, first of all, if we can do it, you can do it. And secondly, that there are simple things that you can do to become

happier or healthier. And that if you and I can save anybody, the fucking headache and heart aches that we both caused ourselves, that is a life well lived. I'm on your page with that. And, you know, I appreciate everything. Everything that you just shared and I am trying to grow into, you know, the person who can kind of just gracefully accept nice things when they're when

they're said to me as opposed to, you know, every instinct inside of me, which is to say, yeah, but or to diminish, you know, the kind things. I think in the case of publishing like something that really is on a bashly very self promotional. I mean, on its face, that's what it is, right? There is inside of me a thing like, like the only reason I'm

putting this up, it's like, it's shining a light on me. And I have discomfort with that. Like I'd rather make it about what you just said, which is the ideas behind it. Yeah, but you are making it about the ideas because you don't sit here and have the conversations and do all the work behind the scenes. That you do that most people are not aware of

that go into making this form of art and this act of service that you're doing for the world by hosting this podcast by producing it, by putting it out there rich. And I think that what's really cool about putting out that post about Zach Efron giving you credit, right? For everything that he knows about health for training, for Baywatch, for the stuff that he's learned from

you that you're the person that he listens to is that he has a big platform. And so he can then send that ripple effect even further. And so the other thing I wanted to say because this is going to lead us right into the topic about mental health, about mindset, about happiness, and the profound issues I've been working on in my own life is I completely

understand what you mean when you say it's really hard to accept a compliment. It's hard to accept the gift. You'd rather have it be about somebody else. One of the biggest breakthroughs I've had in the last couple of years rich is this epiphany about my inability to receive it. And the fact that I was uncomfortable for a long time hearing a compliment or having somebody say

something nice or having a birthday party thrown for me or receiving a gift. And I've recently had this breakthrough because I have learned that there is a extremely tight connection between feeling anxious and not allowing love to come in. And so I have this visual role. I'm going to explain this to you because I just had this emotional experience happen when you sort of were like

pushing away the love I was trying to shower you with. So I think when you block love, like imagine like there's this closed door. And when somebody tries to link with you or connect with you or authentically tell you how amazing you are, if you have a hard time hearing it, you basically have put a solid door between you and the other person. And I've been

working recently with visualizing the Galley Doors in a kitchen that swing both ways. Because you're very good at giving love. You're very good at giving support. You're an incredibly amazing friend because you're always there and somebody needs you and you always open the door to listen, to advise, to share. And I'm the same way too. And for a long time, somebody would try to give it

back to me. The door was closed. So let's talk a little bit about where that comes from. Like what is the genesis of that instinct for you or what have you learned about what I've learned about this. And I would strongly encourage you to bring Dr. Russell Kennedy onto your show. He wrote the book anxiety Rx. He's a medical doctor who also got his degree in

neuroscience. And he started experiencing anxiety when he was in medical school. And I was like, he has gone on to heal his anxiety. He treats people around the world with anxiety. Like he is a game changer on this content and the topic of anxiety. So his theory. And I now see this completely in my life. His theory is that all anxiety comes from childhood. And it

comes from the experience of being separate in childhood. And so every single one of us has an experience. And you may not remember it because 80% of your brain is formed by the time you're five years old. But you have an experience where you, as a kid, feel distinct and separate from your caregiver. And he talks a lot about this concept of a parental mismatch. So

there are a lot of us that have parents who are wonderful people, or maybe they're not wonderful people, but you have parents who are wonderful people. But for you emotionally, just like the five love languages, there can be a mismatch in terms of the love language you speak and need and what your partner does, that your parent and the way that they provide emotional support is

a mismatch. And so as a kid, when you don't get the reassurance you need, or when you don't feel loved or seen or heard or accepted, you feel separate from the parent that you're biologically hardwired and needing to bond with, which also means you feel unsafe. And so as a little kid, at some point, an alarm would go off in your body whenever you felt separate

from your parents. And it could be as innocuous as go hug your uncle and you're like this. I don't want to hug my uncle. You're like, get in there. That's not a really great feeling reassured. It starts to go off all the time. Now, as you get older and older and older, I mean we've all had the experience of walking in to see old friends at

lunch. And for many of us, we feel that alarm go off. They've all arrived there. They're all talking. You feel that sense of separation. That's anxiety. That's what it is. It's in your body. And it is according to Dr. Kennedy, it is the little you basically waving their hand saying, I need a little reassurance right now. That's all that it is. And for decades, I have

approached what has been an experience of living with anxiety from the neck up. I mean, the five second rule is a neck up approach. And based on the last two years of intense therapy that I've been in and, you know, a lot of stuff that I've recently learned from Dr. Kennedy, I realize it is fundamentally a neck down issue that attacking anxiety and these moments where

you feel separate or scared or you feel the alarm go off in your body. If you, instead of treating it like a signal that something's wrong, if you actually treat it as a signal that you just need a little bit of love from yourself right now, just put your hand on your heart. You can like take a towel and kind of do this on your back

rub it back and forth and you feel like you're hugging yourself. Take a deep breath. Tell yourself whatever you need to hear in that moment in order to reassure yourself that you're going to be okay or that whatever. You know, I get it. You feel a little nervous, but all those people at that table love you. It's freaking bonkers. How powerful of a purchases. And it's

also made me realize that wow, I am so not used to giving myself that kind of love and reassurance. No wonder I'm uncomfortable letting other people give it to me. That's powerful. I mean, a couple sort of reflections on that. The first being that it tracks in a very similar way to science that's emerging on the nature of trauma. Like I've just had a couple episodes

with I gabar Montey and Dr. Paul Conti and both of them, they have their approaches are a little bit different, but they have this shared sense or a shared perspective that trauma arises in early childhood. And for the same reasons, you weren't the parenting match wasn't appropriate or correct. And it makes me wonder whether kind of all of these things that we experience later in life

where we feel off kilter can be tracked back to those very early years. And it's interesting. I think that all in fact, I start get I'm now I'm so deep in my own personal exploration of the somatic modalities, whether it's the I the cold exposure, which has been a game changer for me in many ways. And I still hate whether it's guided MDMA therapy sessions with

my husband, which has been incredible around nervous system regulation. And being able to re experience past trauma in a controlled setting that allows my body to reprocess it. So it doesn't keep triggering me. EMDR, but I'm telling you just this reframe of thinking of anxiety as not a neck up approach. Of course cognitive behavioral therapy works. Of course, talk therapy is super important. Of course, things

like the five second rule and pattern interruption and working on different ways of thinking in terms of interrupting the self criticism with a little bit more encouragement. That stuff is part of the toolkit. But I deeply believe that you can heal generalized anxiety. I've struggled with for almost 45 years. I believe that through learning how to experience that alarm that goes off that is completely normal

when you feel separate, when you feel invisible, when you feel slightly nervous, and learning how to give yourself the love and the reassurance that you didn't get at whatever moment it was that this alarm started going off sub five years old. I think this is game changing. It has been for me. I've now taught it to two of my kids that are that struggle with anxiety,

they're reporting back like, okay, why didn't you know this? Like when I was eight and the doctor kept saying change the channel, like just being able to silence the alarm and realize, oh, this thing can come and go. I don't have to be ruled by it. It's freaking awesome. The feeling of being different than or an outsider or other than and that, you know, kind of

low grade nervous system that comes with walking into a room of people and not really knowing how to connect and feeling like you're on the outside of that. I mean, this is the story of my life. I've never really couched it or thought of it in the context of anxiety. I thought of it more. I mean, now, and I've said this a million times, so forgive

me. But, you know, I kind of perceive all of these things through the lens of addiction and recovery and the tools that I've learned, you know, through many years of being in that rubric and in that community to make me feel more integrated and over many years of practicing those tools and, you know, creating a life for myself where I do feel more self-actualized and kind

of with that comes a sense of self-esteem. That has ameliorated, you know, 95% of that feeling that, you know, I used to have that made it impossible for me to be around other people and why I've medicated for so many years. But I still have some low grade aspect of that. I've just never been able to do that. I've never really thought of it as a

chronic anxiety as much as just a feeling of like dissonance. It's the same thing. Because the dissidents or the, like, my biggest experience with anxiety was disassociation. So when I felt separate or I felt like nervous about something and I didn't understand that all I needed in that moment was reassurance, I would like mentally leave the room in my body. And so one of the other

interesting things, the more that you look into research around anxiety is there is an extraordinary connection between anxiety and addiction. The reason why is because if you don't know what to do with that alarm, that is simply the little you go, hey, can you just give me a hug right now and tell me we're going to be okay? You find ways to silence it. And so

for you, alcohol and addiction for my husband, a daily weed habit, like he never thought of himself as somebody that had anxiety either. So what Chris was dealing with in those moments when the alarm was going off, my response to the anxiety alarm is, is, is fight. Go, go, go, go, go, which is why my addiction was an addiction to busyness and to work and to

trying to outrun it. My husband's response to that alarm that goes off inside you when you feel separate or you feel nervous about something or you feel uncertain or overwhelmed was to freeze and to withdraw. And so it became so intolerable for him that feeling of being separate, that he would hit, you know, the wheat pen every day. I didn't even know this as a way

to silence the alarm. And so, you know, I think that that when you start to talk about it not as anxiety, but as an alarm that has been with many of us since childhood, that feeling of being separate or getting triggered by these subtle moments. Where you feel like you're on the outside looking in. I mean, I think a lot of people find it hard to

believe that somebody who puts themselves out there the way that I do. I was actually pretty shy as a kid. And my childhood best friend just has a big laugh. Because she's like, most people don't realize you were like this awkward, weird little kid. You were shy. You were always kind of off. You were never like with a big group of friends. And I still as

an adult. I feel that way. Even when I'm welcomed into big groups of people or, you know, I do much better one on one with people. Well, let's drill down on the business thing. You know, on some level, I suppose that's analogous to work a holism. And it's rooted in this drive that was created very early in life. And translates into this, you know, business also

what comes with that? And the competitiveness, all of these things. And I share all of these traits with you that, you know, as we get older, we learn to be proud of and credit with our success, but also become unsustainable energy sources that end up wreaking all kinds of havoc. And mask that anxiety or kind of distract us from really looking inward to kind of course

correcting what's not serving us. I would say my primary addiction that I still struggle with is business and addiction to being busy. And I would classify at least the business that I've experienced in three different categories. So there is the business that comes from transactional love and transactional acceptance and worth. And I don't think that necessarily is something that happens in adulthood. I think most of

the things that I've experienced are the things that I've experienced. And so, when you start to recognize that acting the way that your folks want you to act or getting good grades or doing great sports or doing what may be a good option, you can be very careful when it makes everybody happy that that's what gives you that emotional support. That creates a certain kind of

achievement, a busyness, a chasing of something outside of you, because you were trained as a kid that that's how you got positive emotional feedback. So that's one kind of a busyness. And it's why so many of us find ourselves putting all of our worth outside of ourselves because we were trained to believe that if we're doing something worthy of praise, then we get the emotional support

that we need. So that's one kind of busyness. And for sure, I absolutely have that. Absolutely. And it has been wonderful in many regards because that kind of drive, that kind of ambition, that can be very, very successful. It can make you very, very successful. The second kind of busyness is another kind of busyness. And that's a busyness that's born out of crisis. And so, you

know, a lot of my success came at a moment in time where my husband and I were about to lose everything. I told the story the first time that I was here on the podcast. And, you know, when you can't pay your bills and you're about to lose your house and everything is on the line, there is a level of busyness that is motivated by sheer

need. And so I also had this problem rich where when I started getting booked for speeches, I was like, I'm not going to be able to do that. We had leans on our house. So I became very, very busy because I was in the middle of a crisis. And the problem with that kind of busyness is it's very hard to hit the brakes and to go,

I'm not in a crisis anymore. In fact, I think that based on a lot of the, you know, the, you and I both do a ton of speaking on the corporate circuit. And what I've noticed, even coming out of the pandemic, is that every single company and person in the world had an over functioning anxiety response to the pandemic. The second it hit and we were

all in quarantine. And everything is uncertain. Everybody is like, go, go, go, go, go, go, zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Change, change, pivot, pivot, pivot, pivot. And most companies have not gotten out of that mode, because it's a busyness that was created in response to a crisis. And so there's this huge moment right now that

everybody needs to step on the brakes and go, wait a minute, I can't keep responding to day to day life like it's a crisis. Not everything requires a zoom meeting. Not everything requires us to work all day long. I got to go back to getting focused on what matters and being strategic and thoughtful rather than driven by this, like, anxious. Well, there's almost a PTSD to

it. I mean, my version of your story, you know, what I relate to that deeply, I went through something very similar. And once we emerged out of it and everything stabilized, it was very difficult for me to slow down, because I was so desperately afraid of ever being in that situation again, that I was just pushing the accelerator as hard as I possibly could to get

as far away as I possibly could from ever being that person. With this sense that if I even eased up a bit that the whole house of cars was going to topple on top of me, and it took me a long time to kind of exhale. And I realized, yes, I'm not in a crisis anymore. Everything is working fine. You can, you know, breathe. And, you

know, it's now incumbent upon you to kind of deal with that anxiety or that post-traumatic stress or however you would qualify it and transcend it. No, but come at it. And that was not an easy thing. Because at the same time, because you're getting, you are growing and you're getting that external validation and things are working. And so there's a, there's a, you have like a

feverish, you know, kind of relationship with that because the outside world is praising you for it, which makes it more difficult to slow down. I remember when somebody, I, I told a bunch of people that you and I know that I would, I decided that I was no longer going to be speaking on the corporate circuit. And somebody looked at me and said, why on earth

would you stop giving keynotes? Right. And just deposit for a moment for people that don't know. The number one self-improvement motivational speaker on the circuit, you were commanding insane fees. And there was no shortage of companies that wanted to book you. So you could go on the road and just, you know, bank like serious life changing cash. I did for years. And, you know, and this,

and I, but I wasn't happy. Like again, it was being driven by this addiction to being busy and the fact that just like, like you, like my success was born out of a crisis. And so I was trying to outrun that crisis and build as much buffer as I could. And I'm grateful for the experience. I'm grateful that I could pay off the loans. I'm grateful

to be in a position that I'm in now with, with savings and to be able to pay for college and to be able to go on nice trips. But I wasn't fucking happy. I'd missed all of our daughter's high school experience. And I felt deeply disconnected from my husband. And I just was exhausted. And somebody looked at me and they said, but you, like are in

a category of one in this, why would you give it up? And I'm like, it just doesn't make me happy. And I think that's part of how you get out of that mode of the second form of busy, which is that PTSD response that we all had to quarantine and to the world turning upside down. Like I personally, I think I'm going to have a lot

of things to do with my family. I believe that unless you are somebody that has been working on your nervous system regulation, I personally feel that this is not a medical opinion. This is just Mel Robbins opinion that when the quarantine hit and the pandemic hit, the universe flipped the switch on everybody's nervous system. And everybody, because we were going through an unprecedented experience, your nervous

system went into fight or flight. The alarm turned on. As you don't know whether you can bring groceries inside, masks everywhere, we're not going back to school. Now it's one month. Now it's two months. Now it's three months. Uncertainty. We're not built for this. And I believe almost everybody listening unless you are actively working on your nervous system regulation, that you have a major opportunity to

do some simple things. To flip the switch off and switch off your sympathetic nerve, which would it would the parasympathetic nervous system, right? And flip on the parasympathetic. I always get the mixed up because I think if it's sympathetic, it should be the one that makes you relax. The sympathetic. I'm probably wrong. But I think the sympathetic nervous system is the fighter flight. Yeah. Which is,

which seems scurry to me. But so I like, you know, if you think about it in the walls of your studio, there's all kinds of wiring for like, you know, I think it's a lot of things that I'm going to do. That wiring is your nervous system. And what happened for many of us, whether it's because of the pandemic or because of childhood trauma, you've never

addressed or because of some traumatic incident or chronic abuse, whatever it may be, the lights have always been on. And you know how some lights are like, if you feel on edge, if you feel like you're waiting for the next shoot a drop, you have an opportunity to just start to see that alarm. And so I think it's really important to be able to see that

alarm going off in the background. And to give yourself the reassurance and the love that you need. To flip the switch to go back to your calm, cool resting state. And there are simple things that you can do. All of what you talk about extensively on the show, whether it's cold exposure, whether it's meditation, whether it's exercise, whether it's breathing exercises. But the stuff related to

toning the Vegas nerve. But I think one of the greatest access to the is truly understanding that that alarm is just that little kid in you who had experiences when you're a little that you don't necessarily remember that made you feel scared, separate alone, uncertain and nobody reassured you. The first step though is recognizing that it exists within you because we have a tremendous capacity to

normalize. Whatever our experience is. And so we could be completely off kilter or just so acclimated to a level of chronic anxiety or whatever the case may be, that it becomes difficult to even recognize in ourselves because we've just lived with it for so long. Yeah. And you know, when you realize it's not about being nervous. Like the alarm that you feel on your body could

be expressed as anger. It could be expressed as frustration. Because you can't tolerate that discomfort that's going off in your body. It might be expressed as withdrawing. It might be expressed as being on edge like somebody like me, which was my experience of feeling always like something bad was about to happen. But then there's a third busyness. And this is the one that has really been

kind of a real game changer for me, Rich. I caught the campaign of misery. It may surprise you to know that it's positive and is optimistic of a person that I am. And I do believe I'm a very positive person. I'm a very optimistic person. Meaning that I do believe that your attitude and your actions can have, can improve any situation that you're facing. I had

in the background a constant campaign of misery that was a tape playing in the back of my mind. And if you grew up around anybody that complains or gripes or life is hard or gossip or just is pointing out what's wrong or unhappy, you don't realize it. But it becomes the language you speak to yourself. It's how you keep yourself company. And when I started to

truly go both, you know, attacking my thoughts, but more importantly, when I started to go neck down. And I started to realize this alarm is something I don't want to live with anymore. This alarm going off all the time, not something I'm going to tolerate. And I started to take the steps to find the switch inside me and to silence that alarm going off in my

body. What I noticed, Rich, is holy shit. When I'm not paying attention, the place that my mind goes is to what's wrong. And the more that I fit because of the things I've worked with who's not was just a dystopia or I've never been a mind scanned for what was wrong. And so it's this third form of busyness where you yourself in your own mind are

like pointing out the things that aren't good enough. Like I literally would be sitting in this house that Chris and I built complete dream house. You've been there. And instead of being able to truly look at the view down the valley, my mind would go, yeah, well, but there's no people here. You're not going to have any friends. You thought you were lonely in Boston? Just

wait. Like it's like the alarm is trying to come back. In fairness, it is in the middle of nowhere. Okay. Now don't make me nervous, Rich. That mean you're not going to come visit. See, non panic. Everything was when the alarm wasn't going off. It was as if this campaign of misery was trying to flip it back on. So what was the the breaking point with

that that that compelled you to reckon with it? It was during well, I think that it's that I'll tell you the breaking point. It was during a guided MDMA session. Yeah, I want to get into this. We were I wanted to put a pin in that. But if that's relevant to this, let's let's hear about this. Well, I have been working with a therapist for two

years on a long time, and just healing past trauma on trying to figure out how to be more content, accepting and happy with wherever I am, instead of constantly grinding for the next thing. And between that talk therapy, between the therapy that Chris and I are doing, once he got diagnosed with long term, like depression. And EMDR and like I think all of the things that

I'm doing, I think I'm going to have a lot of fun. And I think that the way I was doing it, was compounding to this one breaking point. So my husband and I have done two guided therapeutic MDMA sessions with this couple. I can't name them because it's not legal in the state that we were in. But they're part of the maps, vertical and part of

a huge integrative therapy community that is doing the post integration therapy after these sort of, you know, psychedelics. Which I think is the most important part of these experiences is the therapy that you can get. You do afterwards to integrate what you experienced physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, back into your life. So we've already done one. It was absolute game changer. Fantastic. So here we are 18

months later. This was in April. And we're doing a second one. And so the way that it works is you set an intention. You then take the MDMA. And it takes about 30 to 40 months. 35 minutes to kick in. And I had done ecstasy at concerts or just recreationally. This is a completely different experience. Because once you start to feel this sort of warm wave

takeover, you immediately go to a separate like mattress or mat or cot or whatever. And you climb in under blankets and you've got all these amazing pillows. And then you put on a mask. And then you put on headphones. And there's a six hour playlist. And it's the most delicious, amazing. Incredible like boot a bar meets, I don't know what kind of stuff. And they say

that the, you know, that the MDMA is the medicine, but the music is the God. And with every song change. What happened to me the first time I did this is I would have a completely different image in my mind. It was as if because your vision is blocked. And because, you know, you know, you're not going to be able to do anything. You have all

of this like amazing music coming in. The MDMA is a game changer because it blocks the amygdala. So you have no fear reaction. And so what happened for me the first time I did it is it was the most profound experience of my life. For six hours, I witnessed the highlight reel of my past, present and future. And I didn't just watch it. I actually was

there. And so the first song comes on and it's like, I am, you know, that space mountain ride, where you're in the dark at Disney and then it comes around a corner and you're it was a feeling like that. And then all of a sudden the clouds broke. And there I was. I was at Bear Lake in North Michigan, Michigan, where I grew up. And I

was in the eighth grade. And I was there with my best friend, Jody, the one who says I'm shy. And we had the jam box out there and journey was playing. And I felt the whole thing. I was there again. And my intention for the first MDMA therapy session was, I want to look back on my life and remember the good stuff. I mean, our brains

are a real bitch with this negativity bias and the fact that you remember the bad things that happened. Like, I don't know if it's three X or five X to the good things. I'm like, please show me the beauty in my life. And so that was the first thing. And then the song changed. And the second vision was, I could see like little baby feet. And

I looked up and there was this big beautiful blue sky with these big clouds. And there are kites everywhere rich. And then I looked straight ahead. And there was my mom. And she was 19 years old. And there was my dad. And he was 23. And I felt this wave come over me. And I love my mom. And she loves me. But we have a very

kind of mismatched sort of the way that we express. And I know that she feels in many ways that she gave up on her life because she dropped out of college to have me. And for the first time, I just felt this huge intense wave of love. And I reached for the therapist that was sitting with me. And I'm like, I can't handle this. I can't

handle this. And I started sobbing. And then I, and she just put her hands on my chest. And it was just like, you know, tell me what's happening and breathe into it. And I felt this crazy amount of just sorrow and love that I had never felt in just at a soul level for how scared she must have been. And this was in the first experience

that you had. And that, and this is relevant. Because right to hear about that. And that experience was a vivid memory. Like you were actually in that place with the kites and all of that. And then for you were able to access a memory from being a baby. Yes. In stored here because what happens with this music? Is it on whatever is going on with this

music and this like the media is it unlocks something in your subconscious that you can't access for whatever reason. At least this is the way I explain it. God knows if that's what's actually happening. But so for six hours rich. Like it was past present future. I've already been to my daughter's wedding. I have been there. I've seen it. I know exactly like you traveled to

the future. I did you did. Oh, I did. And so the next day as we were driving home, I called my mom. And I'm like, you know, I had this thing where we did this therapy session. And you know, I saw you and dad. And there were a lot of kites. And she immediately went, Oh, that's such and such park in Kansas City. I've never seen

a photo of this rich. She said they would always fly kites and do this and airplanes and stuff. Yeah, we used to go there every, you know, Saturday afternoon when your dad was off call. Wow. And so that was remarkable. And I had this experience of literally like almost like my nervous. And I was like, oh, I'm going to go to the next system. And I

was like, oh, I'm going to go to the next system. So I was like, oh, I'm going to go to the next system. So I was like, oh, I'm going to go to the next system. So I was like, oh, I'm going to go to the next system. And so for the second time, I was so excited. Oh, my God. You know, we're moving to Vermont.

We thought we would do this to like start the new chapter. This is going to be amazing. Meanwhile, I've been doing all this therapy. And I'm working so hard on trying to get that alarm to turn off. I have not yet learned the connection between being separate as a child and separation anxiety and all anxiety is adult. I have not learned the connection between this alarm

and the little you just needing love. And so we go into the second session. And this time we're going to do it at our brand new home. The first day we move in. Chris is again with, you know, it's a husband and wife therapy team. He's with the husband. I'm with the wife. We set an intention. And I say, I want to look to the future.

And I want to really enjoy this next chapter of my life. I want to stop like just. And so they say that the medicine gives you exactly what you need. So. 30 minutes goes on feeling the warm thing. I'm climbing in. Got my little blanket up. I put my head. And here's the other cool thing. I've never had any interest in doing ayahuasca because I don't.

I'm like, I don't want to shit or puke. Like that. That is not right. That does not make me feel excited about this. I don't want to feel out of control. I'm scared about scary things. And so what I loved also about the MDMA is that the second you take your eye mask off to go the bathroom. You're out of it. Even though the drug is

I got to get back. I got to get back. So the second time I climb in, I'm expecting this to be this amazing highlight reel. Nothing happens. So I'm laying there. I'm like, what the fuck? Like, it's just going to work. What's going on? Reaching for the gal, the therapist. I don't think he gave me enough. Is Chris is Chris tripping is is he. Oh, he's,

he's, he's in a great place. But worry about you. Just drop in. Just let it happen. I don't know how to drop in. Mel, you got to stop gripping. The medicine is working. Just, just trust what it's trying to teach you. So then I spent probably three hours going, what the fuck is wrong with you? Like, why can't you just enjoy this? Why can't I just,

just, is this going to work? Is this not going to work? Well, why don't you just lay here and enjoy the music? Why do you have to be so intense about everything? Maybe this isn't supposed to work. Like, I reach for again. I don't think it's working. I really think that you should give me more because Mel, it is working because you need to learn how

to let go. And I said, but I don't know how. And she said exactly. And then I got what I needed because this is what I said to her, well, I have to figure this out. Because if I don't, it's going to be over. And I'm going to have missed the whole fucking thing. And the therapist pause and said, yes, just like your life. And it

made me just stop first. And I thought to myself in that moment, I'm like, okay, you're a person who's had fun and you've laughed a lot and you've done some amazing things. But have you allowed yourself to really enjoy it? Have you ever truly mal? Like just allowed yourself to receive all the things that are around you, whether it's the beautiful sky that you see as

you're out hiking. Or it's the people that are around you in this moment. And so back to the original analogy we were talking about, Rich, like, is there a closed door that shuts you off and keeps you trapped with yourself going, it's not enough. And I got to do this. And, you know, there's no people here in in Southern Vermont. And why did I do this?

And is this going to be bad? And that'll triggered by this alarm. Or can you have a different experience in life where you truly are okay? With what's happening? And you allow yourself to be content and you allow the love to come in. Can you get there? And I'll tell you, like, it just, I then dropped in. And there were no visuals. I just, it was

almost like silence. And that's when that campaign of misery. And I was really kind of, and what was interesting though is that the very next day, you know, we were doing our integration therapy afterwards. And I couldn't get off the couch. I sat on that couch, Rich, for two and a half days. Like, didn't get up. And I felt this almost like energetic shedding of generations

of shit. Of this, you know, I come from a long line of farmers. And my, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I grandparents were from Austria and had a family, like super, hard working. Everything was always about work. Everybody always had dirt under their fingers. Everybody had an abit, an abit, an abit, an abit, an abit, an abit, an abit, an abit, an abit, an abit. And I felt this just shedding of that. I don't even

know what it is, that wiring, that just cloak that there was around me, and that's, it hasn't left. Yeah, I was going to ask, what is the half-life of these experiences? I mean, I think, you know, to your point, like the integrative kind of therapeutic process that follows those experiences is really the key piece. And I say that if somebody who hasn't done this, and I

have a lot of baggage and opinions about, you know, those experiences, and I, somebody who hasn't done it, but I'm always curious, like, you know, I know, I know people that do Iowaska, like all the time. They're not enlightened. Like, so what are they getting out of it? Of the so-called medicine? What is, what is the lasting impact versus the transient kind of experience that's cool?

And perhaps opens a door or a window into, you know, some insight about how to live. How do you then integrate that into your daily behavior in a way that stays with you? It's an excellent question. Like, I think it's all about your intention. Is it escapism? Is it a cool experience? Or is it something that you really are doing to truly integrate some type of

profound change into your life? And for me, you know, I've spent enough of my life trying to escape it and run away from it. And now that I'm 54 today, I'd like to spend the next half of my life, or however much time I have, really in it. Not running for it. And how's that going? Well, I've only been in it now. Yeah. It's open now.

I was going to open this by saying Happy Birthday. We're also here on the day after you launched your new podcast. And I know a lot of work went into that. I mean, there's, I mean, come on. There's a lot of hand-wragging. You know, the backstory to this thing. But also, that's going to flare up the competitiveness and the measuring yourself against other people and all

those external forces that rob you of being present in the experience. And just, you know, that sense of gratitude or just, you know, being that is antithetical to your disposition. Right. So how does that like in the in the wake of this launch? Yeah. How is that showing up for you? How is that MDMA experience buffering against your, you know, default settings? It's a great question.

So, um, I think the single greatest thing that helps me other than the work that I'm doing from the neck down to stay in my body and to stay in the moment and to recognize when the alarm goes off and then to quiet it is to stay deeply connected. To the reason why I do what I do. And there's a couple things that that we've put

in place that act like guardrails for when I get way to, when I get triggered by. Why aren't we on new and no worthy on Apple? We're number 12. Like when we were talking about number 12 on all of Apple podcasts right now. You were number one for a minute. Yeah. Launch the trailer. I was like, Jesus Christ. You're taking up my valuable real estate in

the education category. By the way, but, you know, I'm happy for you now. Sure. There's enough success to go around. That's the one thing that I've, I've certainly learned. It's take me a long time that there's room for everybody. I really believe that. And the reason my mission is super simple. It's very, very much the same as yours. It's to help you create a better life.

And selfishly, my mission is that I wanted to get off the road. I wanted to stop feeling so lonely. And I wanted to be able to connect with people and share my life and the things that I'm learning in a much more personal and real time way that I can't do in an audiobook. And I can't do on a stage, you know, giving a speech. And

I can't do in a 60 second reel. And I, I don't know if you know this about me, but I got my start in local radio. No, I knew that. Yeah. Yeah. And so I, I, you know, back when I hosted this local radio show, it was like a lifeline during a really difficult time for me. And so I've been wanting to get back to radio

podcast. It's just interesting that it took you this long because it's such an obvious, you know, low hanging fruit for you. Yeah. You know, I guess the reason why it took me this long is because I knew when I finally was going to have a show of my own that I wanted it to be the thing that I was doing. I didn't want it to be

another thing I was doing. I wanted to make a deliberate intentional decision that I was going to change my entire business and organize the entire business, the rhythm of the week. And what I was focused on on the podcast show. And so it took me 18 months to complete existing contracts to fix. And I think I was going to finish up the stuff that we, you

know, had on deck with Audible to hire the right people to figure out what we needed to do. And so that's, that's also why I wanted to go all in. And I think particularly when you look at in personal development, the fact that there's an enormous opportunity for female voices. And they're lacking, you know, I want to see more and more and more. It is incredible.

I mean, there's, there's Glenn and there's Brunei Brown. And then it just kind of drops off precipitously from there. Like it's wide open for powerful, yeah, for powerful female voices. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I agree. And so the way that I protect myself from it is we, I just stayed tightly connected to the people whose lives were changing. And who are impacted by the content that we put

out. And so one of the things that we do that I love as we send out a daily email that's a round up from all platforms, the inbox of things that real people have actually said about the stuff that we're doing and the impact that it's made. And so, and today on my birthday, my team had tricked me. They said that Tracy was working and could

not join us for breakfast. And when I walk back to the hotel room, they had printed out birthday messages from people in our community from all over the world. And so, and their photos. And, and so, and last year, last night, like at the restaurant we were at, there were four people that came up to us and they all worked at the restaurant. And one of

the things about me and I know this is true about you is I have zero interest in celebrity. I have zero interest in celebrities. And it's really, you know, just sort of like normal people that are doing the best that they can. Just like you and I are, that's the kind of people that I want to connect with. And the folks that I really want to

be able to be somebody that can make you feel like somebody believes in you that you can do it. Right. The danger being for you, of course, that nature of bored is a vacuum. And you mentioned, you know, you wanted to go all in like I'm an all in guy. Right. So what is it? What does all in look like? Like how do you not repeat

the historic pattern of, you know, filling that vacuum with a lot of noise and busyness? Yeah. And wrapping it in a bow that says, yes, but I'm launching a podcast. And I need to do this for now and blah, blah, blah. And whatever else, only to wake up a year later or two years later, miserable once again. Yeah. With a faint recollection of some MDMA experience

that you had two years prior. Do I hear cynicism from rich role? Is that what I hear? Well, my baggage, you know, my baggage is that I'm a recovery guy, right? And so, and I've said this many times. So I don't want to belabor the point for people who've heard me say it too many times. But, you know, when you tell a recovering drug addict that

the solution to his problem or a solution to the problem lies in a very powerful mind altering drug, like that is, that's, that's intoxicating in and of itself that idea, right? So I will obsess. Oh, this is what I have to do. I do this, this if I do this, then everything will be fine. And that loop can be very destructive for me. I, I have

no judgment on people whose lives who that have been improved. I know lots of people who have had similar experiences and whose lives have been made better by that. It just scares me personally because of my history, even though I know people in recovery who also have explored this and had, you know, a positive outcome from it. So that's just me like, you know, like putting

them in my cars on the table on that. Yeah, I think you have to pay attention to that. And, and I think it's, it's enormously responsible and an act of self love to say that. And it shows how self aware you are. And if you were to ever explore something like that as your friend, I would hope that you would explore it with a therapist that

specializes in a particular way. Sure. I mean, I would, you know, if I, if I was to entertain it, and I'm not, you know, completely, you know, putting it off the table, but it would have to be in a highly regulated environment with people who are super expert. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't hop on a plane and go to Peru with travel bloggers and, you know,

sit around and look, well, you can just go to Venice and, you know, really, well, I, you know, I, there's plenty of it around. But I, you know, if that's what somebody wants to do, then that's what they should do. That is not at all what I was interested in. I was not interested in and a recreational transformational experience. I was not interested in a burning

man situation. I was interested in addressing specific things in my marriage in my past, in my own well-being with, right, a guided therapist and with my husband and with therapy afterwards. And it's interesting now that, like, like why, why MDMA and not civil side men are now they're using ketamine for similar purposes. I didn't want to do psilocybin because when I was at Dartmouth, I had

a horrendous experience on psilocybin. And I think we basically bought Morels that had been dusted with LSD or something because I was tripping my ass off in a canyon trying to put my hand in a fire pit. Because I thought there were dancing chipmunks in there. And I was living on like, oh, what the hell's the name of that band? I was living on like an

Alvin cover fish. And it was terrifying. And for a long, long, long, long time, I didn't even spoke pot after that because I was so, scared of that experience. And I am scared of a experience on psychedelics where you lose control on your anodark tunnel. Like, I don't need to take drugs, experience a giant frog chasing me, only to have the outcome be, oh, I can

get myself through this. Right. But control is at the center of your whole thing, right? And so that experience in of itself is compelling you to loosen the reins and let go, which is a very uncomfortable place for you. Right. So are you telling me I should do mushrooms? No. I'm not telling you anything. I'm telling you that the struggle with your second experience probably had

a lot to do with this control issue. Right. It had everything to do with not only control, but for whatever reason, feeling like I'm not allowed to be happy. I had an experience as a child of a parent who was never happy. Joyful, loud, fun, but not happy. And I absorbed that and didn't even realize it. And it's almost as if the closer I would get

to being happy, the more this sort of programming in my mind that I absorbed as a child, I'd be like, but no, you're not. And so I feel that after lots of therapy and some of these physical experiences facilitated by medicine, facilitated by other modalities, that's the breakthrough that I'm having. Like at a super deep level, that it's okay for me to be happy when somebody

that I love isn't. It's not a betrayal. And that, you know, it makes me sad because I think for a very long time, I didn't even understand that I wasn't happy. And it's because of this, I think, I'm not happy. And so that's what I've been doing. I've been working with this silent campaign of misery, which is how I kept myself company because it was there

during childhood. And what about the fear that that comes up around letting go of that pattern in the sense that it's going to, you know, destroy that engine that's made you successful right. Like well, if I actually heal this and I'm happy, then I'm not going to have that motor that drove me and got me to this place. But did you have to deepen that? I'm

not going to be a pro-grap because I'm sure that you would pivot to that, right? That idea. You know, I feel that the engine's there. I'm just giving it different fuel. So I, like, what if we all had a hybrid engine? It could run on electricity or gas. So what's the fuel now? Like how did you make that transition? A lot of therapy and a lot

of like dealing with this alarm. And allowing myself to have more and more and like just kind of flexing this muscle of being in the moment, being content, noticing when the, but there's nobody in Vermont. But why did you move three hours away? You're not going to have any friends. You're already busy enough. How do you think you're going to have a new life? You're three

hours away from your kit. What are you doing? Like catching that being like, you know what? It's okay. You're going to be okay. It's like, you're in Vermont. Who cares? So here we are. It's your birthday. Yeah. Oh, you know, you didn't ask me, how are you going to make sure you don't have busy? Yeah. Come in. You said that really, like, sarcastic and, uh, right.

Yeah. Like, like, how is the vacuum? Three hours away from an airport. So I put a huge buffer in between myself. Right. But we had conversations when you were wrapping your head around how to do this podcast. Yeah. One of those, one of the things you were debating was, you know, I need to get a studio in Boston. Yep. You're living out in the country. And

I was like, don't do that. Like, the Mel Robbins experience will be enriched by the listener knowing that you're sitting at your kitchen table and somebody's knocking over a glass in the background, like that sense of, you know, reality and authenticity is so important to what you're doing. You don't want to, you know, enoculate everybody from that. And then distract yourself from the mission by getting

all caught up in the studio and fancy stuff and what's it going to be like? And all of that is what you're doing. And then you walked in today and said, I got a studio and plushed it. Yeah. But so here, but so it's not the, but, but, but, but so you did, I did listen to you and hear, hear me out. So I agree with

you. The whole intent for starting this podcast was for me to have a deeper connection in real time with people and to help myself through the podcast and also help other people. Create better lives and to also learn more. And so a thousand percent, yes, you also made me realize that it's not actually a show that you go anywhere to do. That you literally need to

figure out how to make your life podcasting. And so you had a enormous transformative impact on me rich. And hold on, but let me tell you about the studio. So what I also have come to realize much like a hybrid engine. That can run on negative energy or positive energy, right? That can run on stress and busyness or can run on strategic, disciplined, like thinking and

priorities. Is I've also come to embrace the fact that I'm the kind of person that actually needs two things. I need the deep quiet and isolation of Vermont to do deeper thinking and to feel connected to Chris and to Oakley. And to do deeper work and to exhale and to commune with nature. And I also need these moments and bursts of the city and of my

team and of creative sprints. And that I can't do that if I don't have an office somewhere. But I have to figure out how to not be in that office every week. I have to figure out a business model. So I can create my, so I can live my life and have the podcast be part of it. And I can have a legitimate business that runs

like a business, not out of the desk in my house, but at an office. That is not my house, which is something I haven't done in eight years. Right. And you got like whatever it is 200 miles of New England countryside separating you so that you can't escape into that office. Yeah. And the other thing is that I don't want jumping on a plane to give

a speech to be the person that you want to solve for that energy and that kind of creative thing that I need. I need my projects to do that. The challenge obviously then is for someone who's trying to simplify their life and be very focused to not allow those externalities to fill that void or that vacuum and then create all the insanity that you are trying

to get away from. Yeah. How do you do that? And repeating that pattern. I mean, it's that's, you know, I've been on a similar journey with the whole thing. I mean, this studio is so that we're in now is a relatively new thing. But the good thing about it is that it has allowed me to relinquish a lot of the control and do empower other people.

And that's been a huge learning curve for me. And to make it more of a communal effort, as opposed to, you know, I'm doing this thing. We're doing it, which has been great. So there is a there's a there's a release with that and a letting go that's been instructive and I think empowering for the people that I work with here. And also for me as

well, that's freed me up to do other things. And I still hold on probably a little bit too tightly, you know, as you're finding out it's more work than people realize to do this thing. It's really hard work to put out good content in this format and to do video. Yeah. So, you know, but we've been doing it for a long time. And I feel like

we're in a really good space right now. And I feel great. And, you know, I haven't done MDMA, but I have all these other therapeutic modalities that I've relied upon and have grown as a result of embracing. And, you know, I, as I'm sure people say to you all the time, like, what's the what are you working on? What's the big thing? Where, you know, what's

the next thing or whatever? I get that question a lot. And I don't. There isn't really a net. This isn't driving towards something that I don't already have. Like, this is fucking awesome. To be able to do this, I want to just be able to wake up every day and be excited about it. I have other creative things that I want to manifest and express in

my life, but I'm not doing this so that I can do those other things. Like, I just want to be fully plugged into this and to wake up and recognize and be present with what an amazing thing it is. And one of the mantras that I've been practicing is just saying, remember, like, this is the good time. Like, nothing is static. There will come a day

where I don't want to do this anymore or this won't be happening or, you know, some intervening event could occur. That derails me. Who knows what's going to happen. But right now, like, it's great, you know, and I'm having fun. And I can provide for my family and I can employ people who seem to enjoy working here. Like, what is better than that to be excited

about what you get to do every day and to share it with people that enjoy it and are nourished by it. Like, it's fucking awesome. This is exactly why I want to get to fuck ass. But, you know, the other thing that happened for me, because, you know, you and I also share the fact that we've been married for a long time. And you have four

kids, right? And we've got three. And the other thing that happened for me, Rich, is that my family said very loud and clear that they were tired of our house being my work. And so as we made the move from outside of Boston to Southern Vermont, where our son is going to the public high school and where my husband's family has had a house for 40

years. I really listened and they were right. I was never not working because I worked at home. And so it was really important for me to try to figure out. And I haven't figured it out yet. We're just got two episodes out as of today. Like, I don't, I worked so new with this. This is literally I put my pinky toe over the starting line of

America. And you're going to do two a week. Right? Yeah, that's heavy. Yeah. And that we stopped scaring me like all of a sudden I felt the campaign and misery coming up. Oh, God, you're we've done too. Take responsibility for your response. Me? Yeah. Fuck you. I'm not trying to trigger you. I just you just I didn't tell you anything. You don't already know. Well, you

know what? I want to I really feel that. I want to be out there two days a week. And I have a lot to say. And I didn't want it to year year. You're in you're the best as far as I'm concerned interviewing people period. And I wanted to do a ton of solo stuff and a ton of stuff with my kids and husband and friends.

And so part of it too was I wanted to have an episode every week that was deeply personal. And then an episode that was more me learning from. Yeah. I'm curious about that. I mean, I feel very comfortable having conversations with other people. But if I was just sitting here by myself, trying to do a solo episode, that's about the most terrifying thing I can. I'm

not good at that. That is not my, you know, sweet spot at all. It's very uncomfortable for me. It obviously suits you perfectly well. But on top of that, you, you know, you only have two episodes up. But the second episode involves your daughter in a very personal issue. And I'm curious about how like how you know, the relation like how you feel about including family

members. And I mean, obviously they're willing to participate. And all of this, like I just know my kids, like they wouldn't want anything to do with it. They're doing their own thing. Good for you, dad. But like we don't want our personal laundry being aired out on the podcast. And like respect. Like totally totally understand. Totally. So boundaries. So how I handle those boundaries. I don't

want to turn my family into reality show. However, there are things that happen every day in our family. That happen in everybody's family. And so take Kendall, who's a senior at USC, she found out the other day, it's like two weeks ago, that a guy that is her ex, just casual relationship during college, fizzled out. They're not together. But he now likes a friend of hers.

And they're all in the same music program. And this went down in real time as she is blowing up my phone with texts about this. And I texted her back and I said, would you be willing to talk to me? And could we potentially tape, you know, and can I tape it? And we maybe use it as podcast episode. And she writes, sure. And here's the

boundary I've put in place with my family. You do not have to do this. You can always say no. And say no all the time if you want. And you also can listen back and we'll listen back to whatever we take. And you get to decide if you're comfortable or not with this. And so for example, there are a couple things that we've taped with our

17 year old son that are about things going on at school. For him, the issue that we taped was about him wanting to drop a friend, who's really offensive, but he's part of a larger friend group and all the drama involved with that. And that is what I would call a melting ice cube moment. That situation that's unfolding in real time as we're saying, we're sitting

at our kitchen counter and he's asking me for advice or we're just talking through it, is something that everybody can relate to. So we'll capture that. But I wouldn't error that this year. Might not error it next year. I'd wait until he's out of high school so that it doesn't impact people in our community. Right. So the episode that just went up with your daughter, you

know, it's been up a day. You have to assume that it's going to leak out and her friends and classmates and whoever else is going to hear this or be a aware that this exists and that obviously impacts how she's going to be able to navigate this whole thing. Yeah, but here's the thing. Like it is so past. She's already dating somebody else. Like that. And

the thing is is that the episode is not about, it's not love Island. Like we're not trashing anybody. She's calling me to process in real time that wave of emotion that hits you when you find out that your ex likes a friend or you find out that you didn't get that job or you find out and you now are wrestling with which version of you. Right.

How to respond to this because the truth is she doesn't want to not have them in her life. She also doesn't want to feel the shit she's feeling. And so how do you in those moments when the emotional tsunami hits? How do you find your power? And so what I am really proud about in that episode is I'm not even giving her the advice. She's actually

unpacking it in real time for herself. She's going, do I not collaborate with him? Do I do this in my upset? Do I even care? I actually want these people in my life. And I'm realizing that they're better musicians than I am, which is making me feel insecure. Because maybe that's why they like each other. And now it makes me like, so there's so much in

there. But what I'm so proud of is first of all that she's comfortable sharing it. Secondly, that even if you're the two people, I would imagine that she talks so nicely about both of them. And at the end, she's happy. And she has risen above her own insecurity and turmoil to be able to conduct herself in a way that allows her to get what she wants,

which is to remain friends with people, collaborate with them and open the door to new possibilities. And wouldn't you know it five days later, literally an amazing human being walks into her life. What I got out of it and what I found instructive was this sort of instructional audio about how to do it. How to help somebody navigate through a problem and disabusing people of the

idea that like, oh, here, how do I say this? Here comes Mel. She's the one who's going to tell you, you know, what's wrong and how to fix it. And you know, the parent is supposed to come in and tell the kid what to do to solve the problem. Instead, you illustrate the more effective path, which is to of empowering somebody by just asking questions and

providing space for them to process it so they can arrive at what is correct for them. Right? Like it's not like, I'm not going to tell you what to do. But let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this and just kind of retreating a little bit into the background and allowing them to, or, you know, hit that, you know,

stick that landing, which is the most empowering thing you can do. And it's difficult as a parent because you do want to solve the problem. Even if you can clearly see they should do this and not that, it's very difficult not to just say that. Well, that's one of the things that I've been working really hard on is not trying to solve my kids' problems and

not trying to fix anything. Because I've learned the hard way that my kids don't want my advice. They want me to listen. Yeah. They don't want me to go into a fight with my daughter the other day because I stepped right into that trap. Yeah. Well, I, I use, deal this sentence for me. I can't remember who I got this from, but literally anytime they're upset

or whatever or they're blown up, do you want my advice or would you just want me to listen? Nine times out of 10 when I say that sentence, they're like, I just need you to listen. And then when they're done blah, blah, then they'll typically, what do you think I should do? And I'll be like, do you want my advice? Or do you just really want

me to validate what you just said? And it's amazing how much they're mostly seeking connection and validation, not to solve. And I think if you get them talking, you know, ideally you want to raise independent human beings that have the ability to think through an issue and come to a decision after considering all different options. And I really appreciate what you just said about the experience

of listening to that second episode because I agree with you. I don't sit here and say, I have all the fucking answers. And I don't want this podcast to be preachy or know it all. That's not at all like how I relate to myself. I feel like I'm shoulder to shoulder with everybody. And it's way more illustrative and empowering. I think to hear that conversation unfold.

Then to have me recount a story. Oh, so let me tell you my daughter called me and this is what she said. This is what I told her to do. And this is the tool she said way more relatable to hear that actual phone call. And an interesting thing is that so this morning when that episode went up, our website has been flooded with questions about

like because there's a form for submitting topics. I'd say almost every other one is how do I create a relationship like that with my kid? How do you and I don't even feel like the expert on it. Like I don't I don't fucking know like I I would actually bring all three kids on and say parents are writing in saying how do you create a relationship

like that? What's your invite? To parents because you're on the receiving end of whatever it is a dad and I did. What did we do right? What did we do wrong? What is it that they're listening to? Because what they're listening to I think when you hear the episode with Kendall is you hear the fact that she trust me. And I respect her. And she's willing

to share all kinds of intimate details about what she's thinking what she's done who she's intimate with very freely. That's not something that happened overnight. That comes over time. And I don't even like I I wouldn't I don't think I even know how to boil that down. It would have to be them saying what created that. What is your instinct tell you though? I think my

instinct is probably you know one of the gifts of the work that you and I do and how much therapy we've both engaged in and self reflection and self work is that you do stumble upon really interesting research that's very informative. And I think more than anything else Chris and I have this philosophy that our kids are not extensions of us. We do not own them.

We do not control them as our as parents our job is to help them figure out who they are and how to make decisions and how to live with the decisions and accept the consequences of them. And so I think we've done a really really good job of trying to help them. To emphasize who you are as a person rather than the outside shit. So like

for example here's a tactical thing. And I don't I don't remember where I where I got this. But whenever we would go into a parent teacher conference. And they go to talk about work. Chris and I literally go. We actually I don't need to see their schoolwork. Don't need to maybe that's how we missed Oakley's dyslexia for years. But keeping that channel open is everything about

who they are at school. Tell me about the way that I'm going to do it. What kind of person are kids? And I'm way more interested in developing kids that are kind that are self reflective. And I don't know. I think I think oh, oh. And then the other big thing is just like all the growth mindset stuff. I think it I think it actually works

when you praise a kid for their effort and for their trying. And you know, as crazy as it sounds, I also think about like parenting kind of like training a dog. Like you don't train a dog by beating it. And correcting it all the time. You actually reward the good behavior. And so if you want to see more kindness call it out and model it at

home. And there's a dispassionate kind of disposition that you have to have when you were talking earlier about, you know, disentangling yourself from generations and generations of certain way of being that was tied to workaholism and busyness and drive and the like as much as, you know, as much work as you put into that. Like I know for myself in my weaker moments, like that still

eeks out and it eeks out in my parenting. And so to parent from a place of relative neutrality where you're not projecting that ancestral bullshit onto your kid, I think is super key. And when you're talking about the your daughter calls you up, there's a sense of feeling safe and not being judged, right? Like you're not evaluating her. You're just listening. And that's it's it's difficult

as a parent. Yeah. I don't I definitely was not always like this. I think that it really all started. I think a huge breakthrough that Chris and I had was was when we really thought, how are we going to address the issue of daughters and sex? And I think that's the we took a very probably radical approach. I decided that I was going to address it

head on. And so, you know, I don't think that we talk enough about pleasure, especially with young girls. And so what I did is I basically, I basically kind of hijacked the conversation and sat our girls down when they were age appropriate, which probably 12 or 11, maybe even early. I remember right about when they were, you know, doing the sex at school. And what do

you know? What do you want to know? Okay, great. Now, let me tell you, sex is one of the best things about being an adult. It's amazing, especially when you're having sex and making love to somebody you care about and who deeply cares about you. So here's the deal. When you are in a relationship with somebody very special, I want you to come to me and

dad and tell me when you're ready to have sex. Because we will then take you to the gynecologist, you will make sure you're protected. And when you're ready to do it and you have your protection, we'll leave the house. You can have the house. You can be in your bedroom because it is something that is so amazing that we want you to have your first experience

with somebody who is worthy of it. And you're worthy of that. And you're not ready to have sex, something that's incredible unless you can actually tell us you're ready. And what's incredible is your kids are like, wait, are you telling me to sex? No. Like are you actually saying I should have sex? But there's some grenade that goes off in their head. What if they came

back a month later? Great. Okay. What makes you think you're ready? How do they treat you? That's funny because the person's never been at our house. So why do you think you're ready? Yeah, if this is what you really want. Okay. But there are ways to continue to, but you shower them with the praise for coming to you. See, most of the times our kids come

to us and we're like, you shouldn't be drinking. You shouldn't be doing this versus take a deep breath. Even though inside you're like, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. Because when you know she came to us, both of them, same thing, a couple of years later, it's like, okay, I'm ready. They'd been in long-term relationships. And you're like, oh my God, I'm not ready. Mm-hmm. You are

honoring the fact that they're going to do what they're going to do. Do you want them getting relationship advice from their dipshit friends? Or do you want them actually coming to you? Yeah. Do you want them to be safe? Or do you want them in the corner of somebody's basement during a party? Taking that channel open is a every time. And not judging what they bring

to you as the hardest part. Yeah. Because you kind of want to be... Well, the channel doesn't stay open if you're judging. Totally. That's the thing. Totally. So that created this kind of opening that I remember when one of our daughters was being intimate with somebody, she's like, how do you give a blowjob? And I'm like, ask your father. I don't know what feels good. And

she did. Chris was mortified. But of course... Anyhow. Talk about it. That just feels like an episode of a sitcom or something. Well, you know, but here's the thing. The other ones talking to their friends. This is going online. This will be a very popular episode of the Mel Robbins podcast. I'm sure we'll be right. I have to want to have this conversation with her kids

because most parents want to just turn their heads and be like, my kid's not dragging. They're not doing this. They're not doing that. And when you make something taboo, first of all, they never tell you what's going on. And secondly, you make it more enticing. When you say you have permission, to do these things within guidelines. And with respect, they start to respect themselves. Yeah. We've

had this experience with our 18-year-old. And she is open to a fault. Oh my gosh, she'll come home. Oh man, you should see what's happening. And it's terrifying. Right? But I think it's also important to understand and appreciate that just because you're doing that doesn't necessarily immunize yourself from the problem. Like there will be, you know, it was like these are fraught years and stuff happens

and shit like that. So when that thing happens to not then get activated. And, you know, regress away from that whole approach that got you to the open communication place. One of the other things about regulating that alarm inside you is a lot of times your kids bring you alarming things. And we've all had an experience of working for a boss. Or having a parent that

when you bring news that's disappointing or upsetting, they freaking vomit on you. And their emotional reaction is actually what you're afraid of. And so Chris is way better at this than I am. Chris is yoga instructor, meditation instructor. He also now is studying to be a death doledude. Oh wow. Long way from being a restaurant tour. No kidding. Yeah. And so. He is Mr. Chill non

reactive able to just hear and be with. And I've learned a lot from him. And I think that non reaction is incredible because it is a freaking gift when your kids share their lives with you. It's a gift when people that work for you feel comfortable coming to you and talking about the stuff that's not working. It's a gift that somebody feels safe enough and linked

and connected. And so that's the thing that I have found to be like super rewarding about managing my own shit in terms of the reaction. And the marriage is good. You know, depends on the day. No, the marriage is really good. How many years you've been together? 26 years Mary. How about you guys? 22. Yeah. The theme that Chris and I have been working on a

lot is that I think that I'm going to be a little bit more careful. We're really good, not surprisingly, at the doing. And we're and it's not a situation of being roommates. It's something almost deeper because if it's roommates, it feels like I don't care about you. But our lives have gotten so much about the puzzle pieces. Yeah. Especially as the kids have flown the nest

in there all over the place. That we were both very emotionally sequestered. From one another. So, you know, we're doing all this stuff together, but we're not wanting to burden one another with the things that we're wrestling with in our own journals or with our own therapist. And the issue that we've been unpacking in therapy is that if I'm the kind of person and we've talked

a lot about this busyness where I am so going all the time that I quickly take care of things and quickly do things and quickly jump ahead. So, I think that's the reason why I'm doing this person that is easily provoked to take a step back. As I'm doing, doing, doing part of my campaign of misery is going, why is Chris not doing it as well?

And as Chris is sitting back, he's feeling unfulfilled because he's like, when I can never make her happy. So, I'm just going to go on a hike. I'm just going to do my thing. And so, we over the last couple of years, particularly, you know, as we've been in the process of moving and building this place for two years, we definitely have gone into our emotional

corners, not in a way that's like, I hate you, or, but just this sense of loneliness that we've both felt. And so, we're really good right now because I feel that, through having a therapist that we talk to once a week, it's in what a gift to be able to kind of have a place to come to, to say that, like, one thing I hate about

that happened today. Our son has been sick for four days. They were supposed to fly out today for parents weekend, for my birthday, for the podcast launch. And we pulled the plug last night. And we were able, and now have the tools to talk about what is the right decision, but to also take a moment and check in with each other about how you're feeling. Because

I'm sad, you know, I'm sad that they're not here. And I also know I can be two things at once. I can be sad that they're not here. And I can also be grateful that Chris is home with Oak and that they're making that decision not to get on a plane. I mean, he's COVID negative, but the kids really sick. And I can also prioritize finding

time to be with him when I get home next week. And you can focus on what you came here to do without distraction. And maybe that's a negative, you know, busyness oriented kind of perspective, but I even feel myself thinking like, I have a she's here to like launch this thing. And now she can just do it and not be worried about, you know, other people's

needs. Yeah. It's tough, man. Like being together for a long time. I mean, I definitely relate to a lot of that. Like Julie's super busy. And she's got her startup. And she's, you know, putting together this retreat. She's taking people to Egypt. And I have things that I'm interested in doing. And, you know, we, we birthed a lot of creative projects together. But over the years,

we've kind of we have our own respective corners now. And there's something great about that. Like we each have our domains. And we support each other completely. But it is a lot about the puzzle pieces. And, you know, all our kids are still at home. And they're somewhat independent. Like they're kind of like the boys of girlfriends. I never know when they're there, when they're not

there. And Mathis has a boyfriend. And she's gone a lot too. But there is a, you know, a transit authority kind of role that you're playing a little bit. And it's very easy to lure yourself into believing that you're communicating because you're talking about those things. Which actually have nothing to do with your relationship. So there is an auto pilot. And, and with that kind of

auto pilot, you can do. Lude yourself into thinking everything's cool and it's static. But it's not really static. If you're in that place, you're regressing. And that's something I always have to remind myself of. Because we have, you know, been in places where it's like, oh, our lives are, you know, we're living separate lives right now. Like we need to sort this out and, you know,

get back to the intimacy that, you know, is why we're together in the first place. Well, for Chris and I, it became an even deeper and more urgent opportunity and directive. Because what I've discovered is that, you know, kind of trying to break apart my own reaction to that alarm and trying to outrun it and always being busy, right? And Chris's reaction to him is, you

know, his alarm is to retreat. We actually, in many ways, our default patterns were keeping one another trapped in those patterns. And so there has been a real opportunity that we're now showing up differently. I mean, 28 years into knowing somebody, which is super cool. So that Chris is more of, I, my code name is trip leader. Because as I was trying to think about, what

are the moments where I am, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to be the most attracted and feel the most connected and safe with the guy. And there's two images. One is anytime we go on any kind of outdoor adventure, Chris is in fucking charge, man. That guy is Mr. Noles, Mr. outdoor wilderness, Mr. Experience Education. And then

there's this other image I have of him, where when we first met, we were in New York City. And I was meeting him for a date. And he came rollerblading in a suit. Down Fifth Avenue. We even in and out of traffic with a messenger bat on from work. And he just looked like he was a kid at play. And that's the guy I want. And

that's the part of him that really makes me come alive. But my fucking busyness, it sends that dude into the corner. And so I'm working now both for my own happiness and my own boundaries with work. And I'm going to be able to do that. And my own ability to enjoy what I'm doing, I'm also working on breaking that pattern because it allows a part of

Chris to step forward. That he has not been able to do because I've been such a dominant bitch. And how's it going? I mean, can you turn it off? Can you be at home and not work and chill? Yes. Yeah. It's really good. I have really good boundaries with my phone. I mean, I'd like to get to the point where as of 536 o'clock I'm not

working noon on Fridays not working. I put boundaries in place with speeches. It's a no. It's middle of the week and something I want to do in a direct flight only two a month. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. I'm trying. I'm taking the tools. The tools only work if you use them, Rich. Right. I hate that that's true. Why do you do? I want somebody else to

do it for me. Mel. I know you fix it. I don't like that too. Although I don't think either you and I would never be happy doing nothing. Right. But isn't that the ailment? I mean, I'm just like, that's the place to go to understand why it is that you can't just be. Like, shouldn't we be able to just be happy doing nothing even if for

a moment? Well, I can do it for a moment. Yeah. Evening. Well, a defined moment for an extended period of time. A week on vacation. Yeah. I think I could for a month. But after that, no, I've got to put my brain onto something. Yeah. I mean, I take a month off every year now. I have never done that. And I know that you do. And

I also know that you go off the grid for a while. There's a lot. I'm stalking you, Rich. Yeah. I'm a couple of rich roles. Now I look forward to it. And it's been very nurture. And it's allowed me to, you know, remain enthusiastic about all this stuff. You have to take breaks. Well, I feel like moving to Vermont is very much like that. Yeah. But

you can occupy your interior space with your busyness. And, you know, dilute yourself. Because your geographically, you know, remote from a city that you're, you know, that you're dialing it back when, in fact, you're not. It's true. The tricks we play. You know me well. Yeah. Well, the last thing I want to talk to you about is this idea of temporal landmarks. You talk about this

in the first episode. Explain this to me. And then, you know, maybe I'm going to push back here. I don't know. Let me see. Okay. Yeah. Well, so there's this thing that researchers call the fresh start effect, which is this moment, typically in time, that opens up sort of this inspirational, aspirational behavior and thinking in all of it. And they have studied the fresh start effect.

And again, there's a million examples of how this works. But in the studies around the fresh start effect, they talk about specific dates and experiences that create this moment where you break from your past self. And you literally feel like you have a fresh start. And so the perfect example of this is January 1st on January 1st. You turn the page on the last year. And

you go to the next page. And you flip the page and it's a brand new year. And they call dates and experiences like a birthday or January 1st or the beginning of a school semester or a sports season or for some people a Monday for other people of fiscal year that opens up. They call these temporal landmarks. And a temporal landmark is something that gives you

for a moment, a break from the past. It opens up a new window of time where you consider the future and you consider the future you. And so, you know, a great temporal landmark. Today's my birthday is the moment when they're going to bring out the cake. And there are the candles. And as I close my eyes and I blow out the candles, what do you

do? You make a wish. Right. And have you ever noticed that when you go to make that wish, you no longer hear people singing. Because you are taking a break from the moment to consider a bigger possibility. And the same thing happens on January 1st and the same thing. And so these temporal landmarks are something that naturally occur in life. They happen when somebody dies. They

happen when you get married. It's these sort of new chapter effect, if you will. And for just a moment, I'm going to say that the motivation is sustained. I personally think that the fresh start effect that we all can relate to when you make a birthday wish is more about your willingness to see something beyond where you are, rather than the motivation to make this shit

happen. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it's about ceremony and ritual, right? Like when you inject a certain date or event with kind of a ceremonial energy, it opens up that portal for you to reflect a little bit more deeply on your life and cast your gaze forward towards that better self. Unfortunately, the human brain is more wired in such a way that these things have a very

short back to the short, short period of time. The half life of these things, right? Like it's a trope at this point. It's not even worth discussing. Well, I disagree. Because I think you could actually, through ritual, create these sort of temporal landmarks in your day to day life. Right. That's what I'm saying. I mean, we can, there are January 1st, your birthday, et cetera. But

the choice resides within you at all times to make that different to say, if you want to decide that tomorrow is the day that you're going to create that ritual and ceremony, you have that opportunity. Of course. Of course. You know, it's harder and we don't generally do it. Well, I think this is one of the reasons why morning routines are so important. Mm-hmm. Because if

you get intentional about setting up your morning, almost like it's a series of temporal landmarks that trigger you. Right. And that creates a sustained focus on these things that's going to put you in a better place to actually move the ball forward. Correct. Yeah. Correct. It's fucking hard though. That's why you have to listen to the ritual podcast every week. Because you just need to do

the things. Temporal landmarks. Yeah. But, you know, you can listen to the podcast as a distraction from actually doing, you know, the actual things that are going to move your life forward. I call that personal development point. Yeah. There's a lot of that, right? I don't know, man. Well, what is, why don't you, why don't you take us out with, you know, some sort of inspiration

or maybe a tool for the person who is stuck who maybe has made that birthday wish or had that experience of a withering New Year's resolution, you know, not really panning out for them. Like how do you get people to basically turn right rather than left to use your parlance from episode two? That was candles. That was candles right and left. You know, when you sum

up advice, it sounds so stupid and so simple. But I do think a lot about alignment. And I think a lot about how so often, because we are resigned or we convince ourselves that there's no hope, there's no way this is going to make a difference. The problems are so big. There's no like without the actual kernel of hope inside you, which I do believe, even

if you're stuck, you still have that there is this. It's almost like a burn around a furnace, although sometimes those blow out. The ones inside us don't. And there is inside of you this desire to be happier. And I believe that the reason why you want to be happy is because you don't have to be happy. To be happier is because you miss being happier and

you can only miss things that you know. And so that tells me that it's within you. And we want to make it more complicated than it is. But I'll give you a simple exercise that you can do that I did with one of our daughters after she graduated from college and two years of it had been imploded by COVID. And she basically dealt with the depression

and the grief by drinking herself into the ground and, you know, putting on a ton of weight and becoming very sedentary. And then she just had a complete breakdown after she graduated. And so she was sitting with Chris and I and we were just listening to her. She cried. And she's like, I just don't know what to do. I'm 20, you know, one years old. How

do you, how do you, how do you get on stuck? How do you do this? I said, okay, well, here's where you let's start here. First of all, I want you to have this breakthrough. You realize you do know what you need to do. So take out a piece of paper. And I want you to draw a line down the center. And now I want you

to think about when was a time that you felt happier than you feel right now? And she said senior year in high school. So that was like four and a half years from the moment we were talking about. And for some people, it might be some moment in childhood. It might be high school. It might be last year. I don't know. And I said, great. Now

on the left hand side of the paper, I want you to write down all the things that were happening in your life then. Like what did your day to day life look like? Well, like what time did you get up? What did you do during the day? What did you do near the end of the day? How did you spend your weekends? And just you start

to write. I left the house at 7 a.m. I was at school all day with my friends. I went to lacrosse practice five day, you know, five days a week. I drank twice a week. I was looking forward to college. I exercised every day. Like just boom, boom, boom. And I'm like, great. Now write down what your life looks like now. I sleep till noon. I

drink every day. And what happens in life and I'm guilty of this too is we get so overwhelmed by how big the distance is that we need to travel in order to change our lives that we miss the solution that's right in front of us, which is your whole life is about those little things that you do every day. And if you're not happy, get out

a piece of paper, draw a line down the center and write down the things that you were doing when you were a happier or healthier person. And add one in tomorrow. And if you simply just get out for that walk or buy yourself those flowers or start texting a friend a day to make plans or you, I don't know, put your name on the list for

one of the huts for the National Park in the spring. So you have something to look at. You look forward to your life contains the clues to what actually makes you feel a little happier. And when they're sitting there on a piece of paper, and then you take a piece of duct tape and you tape that sucker to the wall next to your bed so that

when you wake up in the morning, you see that there's the road, Mac, pick one of those damn things. You'll slowly start to feel better. And if you can feel better today, you can feel better tomorrow. And that day that you slip up and revert back to the old version. Beat the shit out of yourself. Yeah, just beat the hell out of yourself. Tell yourself, see

I sucked useless useless. It never works out for me. Heap on the self criticism. Grab the alcohol, eat your face off, sit in your house, isolate. That's what you should do. Okay. Now what you need to do is recognize that you're human. And to be human means that you are going to have days where you don't do what you said you're going to. Rich, I have

not exercised like for real in a month. Not at all. Of course, I feel like I know I look relatively, you know, skinny, but I feel so bloated and disgusting on the inside. I know what I need to do. I need to get back into my rhythm. There are things that work for everybody. And here's the major mistake we make. You talk about it all the

time. We let our feelings dictate what we do. And we have to do the opposite if you want to change. You have to lead with the actions that align with the way you want to feel after you've done the actions. You have to take action first. Because if you allow your feelings of I'm tired, I don't feel like it. It's hopeless. Why bother that feeling will

dictate you doing nothing. And that's going to keep you on the right side of that page. If you just look at that list that you created of all the things that you know you should be doing that would just uptick your happiness slightly or make you slightly healthy. Or slightly this or slightly that. Then act like the person on the left hand side of the page.

And then every time you take that action, your feelings will fall in line. And you'll start to feel more like that person. You know, I don't, I know I feel bloated. I know I'm not exercising. I don't fucking care right now. Because I've got something else that I'm focused on in terms of this podcast and the move to Vermont. You know, landing the plane. So to

speak. And I also know that the second I get home on Wednesday of next week, I'll get back into that rhythm. So why on earth would I beat myself up right now? Don't because that is the reason why you're not motivated. The research is conclusive that when you are critical of yourself, it destroys all motivation to act. And so if you have a bad day, congratulations.

You're breathing. You're a human being. Please do not beat yourself up. Shake it off. Look at your list and pick something you're going to do tomorrow and take the next right action. Correct. Powerful Mel Robbins coming in hot with the mood follows action wisdom on her birthday nonetheless. Say it's my birthday. I love you, Mel. Thank you for coming by today and sharing your birthday with

us. You know, I can't think of a better way to spend my birthday. To get to spend two hours with you, ritual. And it was my honor to drive here. In fact, I would fly across the country and drive those 45 minutes to an hour because it is a privilege to be able to sit in this seat and be able to spend time with you and

to have the generosity that you are giving to me and to everybody else by sharing this conversation with people that really love and respect you. So thank you. And I will respond to that by simply saying, thank you. And I'm so excited for this podcast. It's going to be massive. It already is huge. It's already a success right out of the gate. So I will throw

it right back onto you to say that you are an amazing servant to humankind. And my hope for you is that you can truly enjoy the process and not get caught up in the externalities because this is the good time, Mel. This is the good time. Yeah. Right now. So come back. I will. On the other side. Let me know how it goes. How do I?

Cool. Thanks, Mel. Love you. I love you. Cheers. Peace, clients. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at RichRoll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, finding ultra, voicing change in the plant

power way, as well as the plant power meal planner at meals.ritroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode

with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at RichRoll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camillo, with additional audio engineering by Kale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created

by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by David Greenberg, graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Daniel Silberer. Please, Dan Drake, and AJ Akpodiette. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Piot, Trapper Piot, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace, plants. Namaste.

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