Disrupting the school-to-prison pipeline w/Keturah Herron | Rattling the Bars

Welcome to this edition of Rattling the Bars. I'm your host, Mansa Musa. The fight to dismantle America's brutal system of mass incarceration is taking place on many fronts and everyone has something to contribute to that fight. Today we're going to talk about what that fight look like at the state legislative level and why it's so important to have elective representatives speaking up for incarcerated people, their

families, and their community. We're honored to be joined today by Representative Keturah Herron, who currently serves in the Kentucky State House of Representative representing the 42nd District. Representative Herron, thank you for joining us today on Rattling the Bars. Yes, and thank you for having me, and for your advocacy and all the things that you have done and contributed. So I look forward to having this conversation

with you today. All right. Let me open up by tell our Rattling the Bars audience a little bit about yourself and how you got involved in the struggle and what eventually led up to you running for elective office. Yeah, thank you. That's a big question, but I grew up here in Kentucky, actually grew up in a rural community, Richmond, Kentucky. And growing up in a rural

community, you see a whole lot. I think oftentimes it's different. The issues are the same as you'll see in the city, but they just look different. And so at a very young age, I knew and understood what my blackness meant to the world and to society. That was the first type of -ism or prejudice that I witnessed, that I saw my family witness my friends be

a part of. And after I turned 19, I was like, I got to get out of this small town. And so I moved to Louisville and went to school there. And pretty much my whole life, I've worked with youth and families impacted by the foster care system, by the criminal legal system. And really, I took that route for a couple of different reasons. One, when I

was a child, when was in my teenage years, I very well could have been incarcerated. It just so happened that I had some adults who took liking to me and didn't tell on me when I did the things that I was doing. And so I'm also someone who's directly impacted. In my twenties, I was arrested twice wrongfully. And so I think that because of being someone

who got in trouble as a young person, someone who's been wrongfully arrested, being a Black queer masculine woman in Kentucky, there was a lot. And I ended up meeting some of my comrades and we started talking about my experience with law enforcement. And it was then that my homies, they were like, oh no, you directly impacted. Regardless that your time wasn't a long stint of time

incarcerated, you were incarcerated, you were impacted. And so really, society has had told me and tells us, you don't talk about being arrested. You don't talk about being incarcerated because of the shame that comes with it. And so once I understood and realized, no, this is a part of my story and people need to hear this part of the story to understand and know you don't

have to do five or 10 years in the pen to be impacted by the criminal legal system. Let's pick up on that right there. Because a key area focus is disrupting the school to prison pipeline. And for those of us don't know, talk to us about what that pipeline look like, how it affect people living in Kentucky and what it takes to disrupt that pipeline. And

on the sidebar, going back to what you said earlier about being in prison, Malcolm X reminded us when he said in the speech that he was in prison. And then he said, "Oh yeah, let me remind you, everybody in the United States of America is in prison, because that's what America mean, prison." So talk to us about what that pipeline look like and what it look

like in Kentucky and what it's going to take for us to disrupt that pipeline. Yeah, I think that when you look at the school to prison pipeline right now, what I would say it looks like is tagging young people or labeling young people at a very young age, first grade, second grade, and keeping those records and it's following them through. And I didn't understand why sometimes

they say, well, we need to know if a kid is having issues with certain things. But what's happening, especially with Black and Brown kids, is that if a kid disrupts a classroom in second grade, when they get in third grade, fourth grade and fifth grade, those administrators have already tagged that kid. That's right. That's right. That's right. And so what happens is that teacher is going

to have a lower tolerance level for that individual child. That's right. And so that child then starts to be labeled or picked on, or if something happens, you're automatically eyeballing that child. And so this past year in Kentucky, we passed a legislation that said if a kid gets kicked out of class, they are not allowed back in their classroom until the next day. So you're talking

about if something happens, it could be a disagreement, you're going to tell that kid, you cannot go back. And if a kid gets suspended or expelled, they're saying that they can be kicked out for the whole year automatically. And so really, the school to prison pipeline is saying, we're not going to tolerate anything. If you have a bad day, if you don't wear your belt to

and I believe, across the nation. Hey, Representative Herron, let me ask you this here. Don't they, in schools, because I know that in schools they supposed to have counselors and in schools they supposed to have people in them spaces that are relegated with the responsibility of taking them children, as you outline, that might be having a bad day. They might be coming from a household where

it's a large dysfunction. They might be leaving out the house hungry, they might be leaving out the house, didn't get no sleep at night. It's a myriad of things are going on with our children in between home and getting to school. Don't Kentucky, or shouldn't they, if they don't, have counselors that will be responsible for the teacher send the kid or the child to them and

say, look, something going on with this kid, can you talk to them and see, identify so we can work together to try to resolve this issue as opposed to segregate them and marginalize them and then label them and give them a complex about who they are that's going to only get worser as they grow up. And I think what's happened across the time is that the

duties of counselors have shifted and changed. So now, I believe that the actual counselors are more of academic-type thing. What we need more mental health professionals- That's right. That's right. ... and therapists within the school system to help kids navigate. But you're right, the society in which we're in right now that has been created is that our young people are dealing with things that I couldn't

even imagine dealing with. And the fact that over the years we have disinvested in our public education, and so our classrooms are bigger. Kids don't have the same type of access to athletics and things like that. For example, in my district, or in the west end of Louisville, they're about to open up a middle school. So they're going to open up this middle school next year.

It's the first middle school that's been in the West End, which is a Black community in 90 years. Oh my goodness. That's crazy. Now, that's violence. Yeah. So when you talk about what that means and looks like is you're taking kids out of their neighborhood, a whole population of people out of their neighborhood and busing them across the city and middle school. And middle school really

the toughest age, I believe. That's right. That's right. No, no, you got a good observation. They're maturing, puberty. And so when you're talking about it, if somebody's riding a bus 40 minutes one way, how are they going to participate in extracurricular activities? Right. Why did it take so long for them to, we talking about Plessy versus Ferguson, we talking about separate but unequal, then we talking

about separate and equal. But now we're talking about a system where it gives new meaning to Jim Crow because you have a situation where our children education is being impacted, as you outline, by the fact that they're being bused to the Four Winds of Kentucky. Well, why did it take so long for them to get to a point where they invested in this area and invested

in this elementary school or education in general in your district? Yeah, I mean honestly, the biggest thing is that since the murder of Breonna Taylor. Which, happy birthday. Today would've been Breonna birthday and Tyree Nichols' birthday, 30th birthday, them both, on this day. So definitely happy birthday. Happy birthday. Happy birthday to both of them. But in 2020 when community was in the street, when we saw

the uprisings across the nation is really when leaders in Kentucky or really in Louisville started to say, hold on, wait, we need to really see what's happening and we need to listen the voices. And so I believe that it was that moment that helped push that. Also, what helped push that as well is we're getting a hospital in the west end of Louisville and we have

not had a hospital there in 150 years. And this is where we have a disconnect in society overall, when you have institutions that directly impact people, you got what they call food deserts. You don't have grocery stores. Now, you got education desert where they don't have educational institutions in the neighborhood. And then you got a medical desert where they don't have a medical facility. But how

do you expect a community to be healthy? How do they expect the community to be healthy in Kentucky when you don't invest in it, Representative? Exactly. And I think that that's what we've seen and that's what we're trying to shift and change right now, is that this community has been not invested in for so long that you have generations of folks who have not gone to

the doctor or don't see the importance. Why should I have to ride an hour to go to school and come out of my neighborhood and drive in back of these neighborhoods with nice houses that these schools are located in? And then I got to go back to my neighborhood, why not invest in me? And I believe that that also has a psychological impact- Yeah, that's right.

... on our young people. And so it's almost like, well, if you don't care about me and my community, then how am I supposed to care about me and my community? You're talking about kids. Right. So if the system is being violent toward a population or toward a neighborhood, then the people are going to act violent. And I think that that's what we're seeing, not only

in Kentucky, but across the nation. What are your direction in terms of, cause I see you out front on this. Are you getting any support from your colleagues in the legislation? Are you able to make some traction with the community in terms of educating them about the importance of supporting you, and more importantly, supporting legislative efforts coming out around issues or communicating their concerns? Walk us

through this, your strategy as a representative. Yeah, the first thing that I have done, and I'm actually still working on this piece, is I'm going to be creating a five-year plan, a policy plan of the things I'm going to be working on as far as projects and things that I do want to get done within the district. And I've been working with our neighborhood associations to

really learn more about specific neighborhoods in my district and then to get people galvanized and find out really what it is that the people care about, but then also let them know what it is that I care about, which is violence prevention, workforce development and education and restoration of voting are the three big pillars of the things that I want to do. But the other thing

is, one of the things that I've been learning as well is that all the time it's not necessarily always about policy. That's right. There's other things that I can bring to the district as far as money and resources, projects, and helping people get things done like that. So that's where we at right now. But it's a learning curve for us all. In Kentucky, in the House,

we have a hundred members in the House, 20 of us are Democrats. And then in the Senate is the same way, I think we only have seven Democrats in the Senate. So we're in the super duper minority. Obviously, we have a democratic governor, Governor Andy Beshear, who's got a tough race this year in November. But that's the work, is getting people to know and understand the

importance that I can't do this by myself. I'm one person. And so the people have to be engaged, the people have to be involved. And it is my role to help teach them what that advocacy looks like and empowering them to be able to make some of those changes as well. And I think in regards to that, I think that you outlined, once you outline your

strategy, and I know from experience Marion Barry, who was the mayor of the District of Columbia, when he came into this system of electoral politics, the first thing he created, and everybody to this day talks about it, is he created summer jobs for youth. And when he created summer jobs for youth, I was like 15 when I got a summer job and we lived in the

project. But what it did, my whole neighborhood was vibrant because everybody in that neighborhood that of that age had money in their pockets finally. And what it did, it empowered us to think beyond hustling soda bottles or trying to carry people's groceries. We actually had was doing a W2. So we had an income. And I think that in regard, when you talk about creating jobs, what's

your vision on doing that? How do you envision getting more jobs or getting more people to come into your district to invest in your district in that regard? Yeah. So there's a couple of things. We recently in Kentucky named the Ford Motor Company is putting their electric battery plant in Kentucky. It's about 40, maybe about 40 minutes outside of Louisville. And so one of the things

that I'm hoping to do is create a pipeline to get our young people and our people in Louisville in general ready and trained up for that. That battery plant is going to open in the next two to three years. And so now is the time to start training people and recruiting people and for us to create that pipeline. Those jobs, even though they're factory work, college

is not for everybody. Everybody don't want a college. College is too damn expensive. But what I do know is, if we get young people and we get people in communities who have not had an opportunity, we get them in those jobs in some of those factories, that's generational change. A 19-year old can go in there and work 20 years, be retired by the time they're 40,

and that's a whole generational change. And so it's also educating the community on what this really means and looks like and, really, what that timeline is. When I was in Richmond, Kentucky growing up, Toyota had just came to Georgetown, Kentucky. And I remember hearing adults sitting around the kitchen table of people were like, "How are we going to get these jobs at this factory?" And now,

seeing some of those folks who have retired, now they own businesses, they may do something else on the side, but they have literally shifted their whole entire family. They're able to go on vacation, they're able to buy homes. It's a different way to garner that generational wealth. They have 401ks, they have health insurance. And so it's my role to educate the people on the possibilities for

those people who want to do that type of work. There you have it. Yes. Representative Herron. Yeah. As we talk, there you have it. The real news. Rattling the Bars, Representative Herron, breaking the prison pipeline by creating economics, by creating a quality of life, by bringing schools back into her district, by bringing healthcare back into her district and getting people to imagine having a better life.

Thank you, Representative Herron, for enlighten us on what's going on in Kentucky. We look forward to your great works as you continue. Thank you for having me and I look forward to continue being in contact with you all and hopefully you'll have me back on soon. Yes. Okay.