Demaurice Smith full interview | Edge of Sports

presidents always start the State of the Union address with. DeMaurice Smith: Yes. Dave Zirin: That they try to answer, which is about the state of things. DeMaurice Smith: Yep. Dave Zirin: How would you describe the state of the NFLPA right now? DeMaurice Smith: We've never been stronger, and I think that the combination of the war that we went through between 2009, 2011, we made some critical

changes to a collective bargaining agreement that a lot of fans may have thought was okay but wasn't okay with respect to protecting the interest of the player. That was a necessary war, primarily because the owners brought it to us. And that deal changed a lot of things. But one of the most important changes was, up until that point, the League had the unfettered unilateral right to

increase the players' work up to 21 games. Dave Zirin: Wow. DeMaurice Smith: So you and I, we can tell all the stories, but we're probably slightly on the edge of when there was a 12-game season in the National Football League, then there was a 14-game season in the National Football League, then there was a 16-game season. Most fans don't realize that the League changed and increased

those games without substantially changing the way players were paid or the amount that they were paid. So for a union, I define the ethos of a union around its ability to protect its workers when it comes to wages, hours, and working conditions. And being able to increase their hours without having to increase their wages is a problem. So we fixed that. You move forward to 2020.

The League bought 17th game, in economic terms. They bought that game for approximately $1.6 billion, and that was a game they had free in 2011. So we're at a point now where that latest CBA not only substantially increased the minimum salaries for 70%, 72% of our players, that same collective bargaining agreement provided the players with a tremendous amount of leverage during COVID. And as a result,

the owners ate all of the overhead with respect to what was necessary to protect our players. During a worldwide pandemic, all of our players received 100% of their salary when no one in the world was receiving 100% of their salary. And as far as our joint mission, successfully getting through a season, we did it. So, Dave, we're at a time when I know that we have

a level of concussion protocols that didn't exist when I took the job. We've secured pensions for three, six, somewhere between nine and 12 generations of players where most Americans are saying goodbye to their pensions. Dave Zirin: Right. DeMaurice Smith: And when it comes to health and safety of the players, I know that what we did starting in 2011 by credentialing all the team doctors, having protocols

in place for how players are treated if they get hurt, what's the protocols and the necessary personnel that needs to be on the sideline during a game. And then you're sitting there watching a Monday night game where a player suffers a cardiac arrest, and thankfully the right people were on the sideline, trained in the right protocols, also had the necessary backup protocols. But knowing that the

things that we did in 2009 through 2011 with respect to health and safety, I know that that had a direct-line impact on saving that young man's life. Dave Zirin: Yeah. And we're going to talk about Damar Hamlin later in this interview, for sure. But first and foremost, just based on another thing you just said: the 17-game season. I mean, clearly, you've heard that some players are

not thrilled to have the extra game. What has been the general response, do you feel, from players? DeMaurice Smith: Look, we're a democracy. And when we started the process of the 2020 CBA back in 2018, that process was talking to all of our player leaders and coming up with roughly the 15 things, 20 things that the players most wanted. And that was our bargaining position going

in. Out of the 15 things that the players wanted, we ended up probably getting 13 of them. The League conditioned all of those things on a 17th game. And that's the question. I mean, look, if it was up to me, would I prefer to play 10 games a season? Sure. I'm sure that a lot of basketball players who are grinding their way through the playoffs right

now wish that they played less than 82 games. But that's the nature of collective bargaining. What was important for me back in 2011 was taking away the owners unfettered right to increase our games without paying [for] it. So, again, I understand it, and our CBA passed by 67 votes, but that's the way the democracy works. And if its those same players who didn't want to play

a 17th game, hey, that's great. I haven't gotten a call from any of those players thanking the union for taking away the unfettered right in 2011. But also the same thing, if you're not happy with the deal that's on the table, what is the role and what is the right of labor? Strike. So the question becomes, not really to me, about whether somebody likes this deal

or not. To me, what this business is, the day after every election in America, 51% of the people hate you. The real issue for collective bargaining isn't how the deal ends up. The real issue for collective bargaining is what is the membership willing to do if the deal that they want is not delivered? Dave Zirin: And it's obviously very difficult to organize a strike. I'd love

to hear your perspective on it. But when players on average play three to four years when they're in that position, doesn't that make organizing labor action more difficult? DeMaurice Smith: It does. And I'm not saying that organizing a strike would be an easy thing to do. I think organizing a strike would be easier than maintaining a strike because, look, our history in the National Football League

is, depending on how you count, either two or three failed strikes. But the way that I see this is not really a, do you strike or do you not strike scenario? It's, can you successfully win a strike or not win a strike? And that is both a question of reality and a question of perception. Do the owners believe that the players will strike? No. Do the

players believe that they will strike? No. Right. And so you and I are big fans of Saul Alinsky. The way that I measure our wherewithal to successfully win a strike despite what players say or despite what other people say, I think organizing a strike, frankly, is fairly easy. I do, because our player reps are smart, our executive committee is smart. I think you could make the

case for a strike. And I think that they could vote yes as player reps and executive committees have voted yes in the past. The problem wasn't that they voted yes. The problem was a lot of the players, especially the star players, didn't honor that yes. So for any fan of Saul Alinsky, you realize that, yes, there are people who are economically constrained, whether it is their

situation or the lack of bargaining power. But the beauty of Alinsky's way of thinking was, are there things we can do less than strike? Sure. And so we have minicamp. Most minicamps are in process over the next few weeks. We still have 85%, 90% of NFL players showing up at OTAs for free. So if you and I were able to bring Saul Alinsky here and put

him in his chair, the first thing he would probably say is, well, maybe the players should deprive the owners of their talent, especially if they are giving that talent and work away for free. Dave Zirin: Right. DeMaurice Smith: We can't get players to not go to OTAs for free. Every player in social media, if you pulled it up on your phone, their social media's covered with

what? Team marks. None of them are getting paid for it. So the teams are getting free advertising from a group of people who are populating their social media with free stuff And by the way, I don't care about that. But if we really wanted to demonstrate solidarity or do something that increased the pressure on ownership to change that perception that the players won't strike, it's a

relatively easy lift: Don't work for free. Don't publicize the owners for free. And that those things are the things that traditional unions... And I think, thankfully, we were talking outside, things that you've seen other unions in America start to do effectively well. I mean, the most recent one, obviously, the writers strike that we're supporting. You're seeing Starbucks workers who are working for minimum wage and working

less than 20 hours a week go on picket lines. You've seen teachers who are living paycheck to paycheck, nurses who are working paycheck to paycheck walk off the job and shut down school during a school year. You're seeing both physicians and nurses in Great Britain, who realize now that they cannot make a living wage, going on strike. So what paradigm would you want? Would you want

a paradigm where the minimum salary is $800,000 a year, but you work for an average of three years and make a decision about not striking? Or would you rather be in a paradigm where people are making less than $60,000 a year and living paycheck to paycheck and making a decision about whether they want to go on strike? At the end of the day, it's not an

issue of economics. The economics are an excuse. It's an issue of will. Dave Zirin: I can't even begin to talk about the amount of issues you've had to deal with over the last 14 years. DeMaurice Smith: Yeah. Dave Zirin: Compare that to any 14-year period in the history of the National Football League, it's not even close. DeMaurice Smith: It's not even close. Dave Zirin: No, the

word is "maelstrom", is the one I keep coming back to. And one of the issues that's been so intense over the last decade and a half has been the issue of racism and the way it's been discussed openly in the League, unlike ever before. What do you say to fans who look at the National Football League, they look at the coaching circles, they look at who's

in the owners' box, and they believe that the League is afflicted with structural racism? What do you say to those fans? DeMaurice Smith: It's true. I mean, I think that you could use... And if we were splitting hairs, I think that it's both institutional and structural. Institutional in the sense that it is historical and perpetual. Structural in the sense that we have a closed system in

the National Football League. The structure is a closed system. And what I would say to those same fans who feel, and rightly feel, that the League is engaged in structural and institutional racism, what I would say to the fans is, welcome to the National Football League. And the reason why I say it that way is that even your question inherently contained the answer. They are still

fans, aren't they? Dave Zirin: Yeah. DeMaurice Smith: And so I have a hard time if a fan comes up to me and says, D, what are we going to do about the racism in the National Football League? And depending on whether it's my first tequila or my third tequila, the eloquence of the answer, but the first thing that I remind them of is, you're still a

fan, aren't you? You watch, you buy your ticket. So are you supporting this structural and institutional racism? Yes. Yes. Dave Zirin: Has your thinking on this evolved since 2009? Or do you feel like you walked in knowing the score? DeMaurice Smith: We're both students of history. So if you want to go back and you have an opportunity to ask Drew Brees, or Mike Vrabel, or Brian

Dawkins, or Jeff Saturday, or Foxworth, any of those guys who were on the executive committee when I got elected, they'd probably roll their eyes about what my interview process was. My interview process was primarily teaching them what the National Football League really was. So I got a call about this job I wasn't looking for this job. When the call happened, the first thing I did was

spend probably three weeks just doing a deep dive on what the history and structure of the National Football League is. And when you do that, there is an inescapable conclusion that you reach if you're willing to purely indulge the scientific analysis of the League. First of all, stop calling it a game and understand why the NFL majority shareholders Think about it. I'm coming to this job

as a partner in a large law firm, former homicide prosecutor. I'm looking at it just from a pure, almost clinical analysis of what the business is. There's the head of Lazard or there's the head of Goldman Sachs, and there's the head of Google, and there's the head of Amazon. Which one of those guys call themselves an owner? Dave Zirin: I mean, [inaudible]. DeMaurice Smith: Even the

NBA calls themselves governors, but, no, you're the majority shareholder of the Browns, or you're the majority shareholder of the Ravens, or you're the majority shareholder of the Commanders. Just so fans understand, I mean, there are multiple owners, people who have invested in this team. Who calls themselves owners? Dave Zirin: Yeah. I think people who have certain attitudes about their workers/players. DeMaurice Smith: And people who want

to remind people of who they are. It's not just an internal mindset. All of this is performative. So when I'm interviewing with the executive committee, I told them, I don't think of any of this like the game. They've indicated that they're going to lock you out. That means something pretty simple in the labor world. A lockout isn't a negotiation. A lockout is just an effort to

step on your neck and choke you out until you take a deal that sucks. That's a lockout. Dave Zirin: Yeah. DeMaurice Smith: So if a team or if any manager or any business decides to engage in a lockout, know that the deal on the table is an unfair deal, because you would bargain over a fair deal. So this idea that the League was structured in such

a way, think about it. There are no 10Ks, there are no 10Qs. There is no public board of directors. There is no Department of Justice oversight. There is no SEC oversight. Nobody delivers an annual report. There is no shareholders' meeting. There's nothing in the National Football League that anyone would call a compliance or an accountability structure. So I know it'd be hard for you and I

to imagine, but if you and I were multibillionaires, and we were unfettered with a moral compass, and we had no accountability, no compliance system, what would we do? Dave Zirin: Buy Twitter [laughs]. DeMaurice Smith: Buy Twitter. Dave Zirin: Yeah. DeMaurice Smith: And then run it... Dave Zirin: Into the ground. DeMaurice Smith: Right. So this question of institutional and structural racism, whether you are looking at issues

of race or gender or class, this is a closed system. John Mackey filed the first lawsuit for free agency in 1971. We didn't get free agency until 1993. I have shoes older than 1993. And so what I try to remind people of this is a closed system where 32 people do whatever they want to do. So this idea that fans should be shocked at the structural

and institutional racism, yes, but also it means you don't understand what the National Football League is. Dave Zirin: Yeah, great point. Another issue in your tenure that certainly brought a lot of what we've been discussing to the surface was, of course, Colin Kaepernick. DeMaurice Smith: Right. Dave Zirin: No need to explain background on that. What are your thoughts on Colin Kaepernick the person? And I know

the union reached out to offer support. DeMaurice Smith: We actually represented him. Dave Zirin: Okay. Tell me a little bit about the intersection between Colin Kaepernick's protest and the NFLPA. DeMaurice Smith: Yeah. The third thing I would add is just the overall process or what was going on in the country at the time, because you and I know that's... Dave Zirin: That's critical for understanding everything.

DeMaurice Smith: That's critical for understanding everything. Dave Zirin: Yeah. DeMaurice Smith: So let's... One giant step back. I'll never forget... Well, I'll never forget two things. I don't watch a lot of football, and I certainly don't watch any preseason football. But I remember when I got a call from our head of communications that Colin Kaepernick had knelt during a preseason game. And I remember that like

it was yesterday. And George said, I agree with you, D, we need to say something. And if you remember, the first public person to come out and support his right to kneel was me and us. The first interview I gave was to Dave Zirin. Dave Zirin: That's right. DeMaurice Smith: And that was a deliberate decision, because there are only a few people that I could talk

to who understood and would be willing to talk about how that act was framed against both the history of the NFL, the history of protest, and the battle that has never really gone away in America, but certainly a battle that was far more joined over the issue of racism in our country. And so from that moment forward, we felt that it was important Not to only

defend Colin. I looked at it as our role of defending speech and defending our right as a group of players to be something more than a two-dimensional fungible, discardable object. And, again, my frame, it happens on the sideline. It's not during the game. It doesn't impact any part of the game. It doesn't deprive... I'm just D, the CBA lawyer. Doesn't deprive the fan of his ticket,

doesn't deprive the team of its labor, and it's not a violation of the collective bargaining agreement. Now, realistically, do I also understand that it might not be 100% positive or 100% supported by every other player in the League? Fine. But that's where I feel that I spend most of my time, and at times probably my highest utility is teaching. So, no, it wasn't popular, but then

it became really important to get on the road as quickly as possible, go team to team to team, and basically take this opportunity to teach our membership, this is why the union is taking this position. No, we are not going to decide by majority vote whether somebody has the right to express themselves, because that is something that is not subject to majority rule. And, yes, I

heard it. D, is this a democracy or not? Yes. But I don't care who votes, no one has the right to vote away your intrinsic rights. Dave Zirin: Yeah. Seems pretty anti-democratic for people calling for democracy to say people should be silenced. DeMaurice Smith: And it's just like the fans, and, yes, it was just like some of the players, the call for democracy was an illegitimate

frame for what you really are believing. You're talking about it being democracy. But what you're really saying is, I disagree with what he's doing. I'm going to interpret it as anti-flag, or I'm going to interpret it as anti-police. Why don't we just listen to what he's saying, and understand why he's doing it, and come to a conclusion that he's expressing himself over real issues that are

plaguing America at the time? And, by the way, if you disagree, no one is making you kneel. No one's making you stop the game. And so from there, obviously, when Colin chose not to exercise his option to stay with the 49ers, went into the market, couldn't get a job, we filed the collusion claim, and he was represented by his lawyers, but also represented by the union.

We pursued that case until he settled that case. Dave Zirin: Were you glad he settled, or were you hoping it would go to trial so a lot of this could be aired out? You got to have an opinion on that. DeMaurice Smith: I do, but that opinion is also covered by attorney-client privilege. But I do have an opinion. Equally important, if not more importantly, however, than

just the case. Look, the collusion case wasn't the first case we brought against the League. It's probably somewhere around the 600th. But what was more important to me at that time was, as other players stepped up to protest, it was about protecting their rights, but also making sure that this union went into overdrive to articulate and explain to the country and to our fans why this

is such a reverential, important way of shining light on injustice. And so there was that piece. And you probably saw some of the interviews at times, was also going on shows like ESPN and responding forcefully to what I thought was some of the network's decision to either turn this into spectacle or to frame this in a binary way, a false binary way, that this is taking

away from the game. And players are simply choosing whether they are going to sacrifice the game or sacrifice or indulge in their way of self-expression. That's a false binary choice. And then the other level to it, of course, is knowing that virtually every NFL owner had decided that this was the existential moment for the National Football League. Mind you, we've had owners arrested for carrying trash

bags of drugs. We've had owners with prostitutes. We've had owners engaged in gambling. We've had owners who were stripped of their teams. None of those were an existential moment for the National Football League. No, the existential moment was a pizza sponsor that was willing to pull out. Some people and in their... Okay, they're right, every now and then, I can be a little smartmouth. Dave Zirin:

Are you about to say it's not very good pizza [laughs]? DeMaurice Smith: If our biggest economic worry at the time was whether Papa John's was going to pull out, then Roger, please tell me that we are on the economic brink of collapse in the National Football League, because I don't understand. Dave Zirin: Right. DeMaurice Smith: And so there was that, what we had to deal with.

And then, ultimately, the League imposed their unilateral rule banning kneeling. You were either going to stay in the locker room or come out, and somebody was in the side, and somebody wasn't. And we ended up resolving that for two reasons: One, made it clear that if they didn't withdraw their unilateral rule, we were going to file a federal case, which I believe we would've won. But

more importantly, if they persist in this unilateral rule, my message to players would be kneel at the coin toss, kneel during every time out, kneel during every touchdown, kneel during every TV timeout. So pick your poison. Dave Zirin: Right. DeMaurice Smith: And weirdly, to this day, that standstill agreement where they withdrew their unilateral rule, that's still in place in the National Football League since then. We

haven't changed anything. The status quo of whether players can kneel Players can, but that's just simply a standstill agreement where both sides decided to put their guns away. Welcome to how the National Football League operates. Dave Zirin: Another moment during your tenure, something you mentioned already that was so intense and so frightening, was Damar Hamlin's near death on the field. Now, the report from ESPN in

real time was that the NFL said, you got five minutes to get your heads together, now go back out and play. And they said the union talked to the players along with the coaches, and they were the ones that said, no way, and the game was called. The NFL denies this. And I was wondering if you could tell us the truth. DeMaurice Smith: The truth. Dave

Zirin: Yes. DeMaurice Smith: Watching the Damar Hamlin situation... Again, I don't watch a lot of football. My wife and I were watching that game. And after the injury, obviously, for people who were watching on TV, you really couldn't see what was going on. But the first thing, or the two things that alarmed me were the reactions of the players and the length of time. Because I

stay mired in what the emergency protocols are for when players get hurt, and whether it's an airway, whether it's a concussion, whether it's a soft tissue injury, whether it's a break. We've contemplated every injury that could possibly happen and what is supposed to happen in a response to that. And the length of time that was going on was the thing that alarmed me the most, because

I knew that it was something extremely serious. So 10 minutes, maybe five minutes into it, I called Roger. And my feeling at that moment was, we need to call this game. And I don't know what's going on, but I know, looking at the reactions of these players, that it's horrific. And that conversation, let's just say, went on far longer than it should have. I understand the

League's interest in checking with the coaches, and I don't mind telling you that I understand the League's interest in talking to the players. My position was, this is not a coach's call, this is not a player's call. Yes, we are a democracy, but a consensus about whether that game should continue coming from the players, I don't mind telling you as the head of the union that

I don't believe that that is a player call. It is a leadership call. It's a morality call. It's an ethical call. It is not a democratic vote call. And I've made that clear. I talked to a couple of players in the locker room. We were fortunate enough to have an executive committee member playing that day. I texted him, talked to him. Dave Zirin: Who's that again?

DeMaurice Smith: Michael Thomas from... Dave Zirin: That's right, Michael Thomas. DeMaurice Smith: ...The Bengals. Tremendous... One of our best leaders of all time. Dave Zirin: Yeah. DeMaurice Smith: Not going to talk about what we talked about, but I just wanted to tell him what my message was to Roger. And then the game was called. So I saw what the League said, that just simply doesn't square

with reality. Dave Zirin: Got you. So Roger Goodell, you've been working across the table from him for 14 years. DeMaurice Smith: Yeah. Dave Zirin: Given everything that's happened over the last 14 years, the intensity, the ups and downs. DeMaurice Smith: We're doing a couple's vacation next week, sort of an all-inclusive thing. Dave Zirin: Nice. DeMaurice Smith: Yeah. You got to keep the magic alive. Dave Zirin:

Yeah, yeah, I was thinking maybe a cruise. DeMaurice Smith: [Laughs] Not. Dave Zirin: Is he fit to serve? I know that's not, obviously, your call, but your measure of the man after all this time? DeMaurice Smith: Roger, I think we have a far better working relationship now than we did. And it's going to sound like I'm... I'm not defending anyone, but this is just the frame

of what this business is. He represents the interest of the owners. I represent the interest of the players, in the same way that it was Walter Reuther against the head of GM, or Rich Trumka against the head of the coal mines. Those aren't situations that are breeding grounds for friendly relationships. And frankly, I don't think they can be. I don't think that a labor leader whose

first thought is, how well can they get along with management? is starting off in the right place. Just take a look at history. And I hear some of those people and there's other people in the business who have different relationships. I don't think that that is a positive, helpful relationship for your workers, because peace is negotiated peace. I mean, it's peaceful. It was extremely peaceful when

players didn't have free agency. It was extremely peaceful when the League could increase our games from 12 to 16 to 21 games. It's peaceful. Is it a great working relationship? No. So I don't mind comprehending that we might be able to negotiate a peace. But if your members are suffering at the hand of that peace, I think it's rather Pollyannaish to think that someone can have

a view of, well, I can talk to them, we're going to get more from honey than vinegar. Hey, I think those are great little sayings. It didn't work for my dad when he was marching for civil rights. Didn't work for my mom when she lived in the Jim Crow South. A lot of people would say it was peaceful. It just depends on which house you're growing

up in. So that's the backdrop of how Roger and I met. And it was his first CBA. Paul Tagliabue was out. The owners made a decision even before we got to the bargaining table that it was going to be a war. And I think Roger did what sometimes we are told to do by our membership: go to war. Is he fit? Yes. We can go at

each other, but he's incredibly bright. And I think, to some extent, both of us have a very, very difficult job. I'll tell you right now, I wouldn't do his job. I've dealt with the owners for 14 years. No. Dave Zirin: It's so funny. That feeds right into my next question, which is, you just said you wouldn't take Roger Goodell's job, but if I built you a

time machine... DeMaurice Smith: Yeah. Dave Zirin: So congratulations, I'm giving you a time machine. DeMaurice Smith: Thank you. Dave Zirin: It's pretty good. DeMaurice Smith: Yeah, it's Mr. Peabody & Sherman [laughs]. Dave Zirin: Exactly. We'll star in the reboot. The live action version. If I take you back to 2009, what advice do you give yourself? And DeMaurice Smith: In 2009? Dave Zirin: Yes. DeMaurice Smith: Don't

take the job [laughs]. Dave Zirin: And do you take the job, is my next question? DeMaurice Smith: No. Dave Zirin: Wow. DeMaurice Smith: I think the first 18 months in this job were far tougher than I expected. I think that understanding the power of the ownership, their ability to not abide by the rules. I come from a... My background was a strict legal background where the

authority of a federal court, the judgment coming from a court, the decision of a judge, the Dave Zirin: You're talking about the rule of law. DeMaurice Smith: The rule of law, the terms of a contract. These are a group of people who not only don't believe in that, they don't have to abide by that. And a little bit... Not as far as I'm going to go

about it personally, but they are also unbridled in their ability to destroy individuals. Dave Zirin: Have you ever felt targeted? DeMaurice Smith: Yes! This is what they do. But this is for our, again, our historical frame of reference. Whether the issue is civil rights or gender rights or labor rights, you can look across history at those civil rights leaders, or those people who were fighting for

equality with respect to gender, or those labor leaders who were fighting for fairness for families. Find me an instance where they weren't personally targeted. Dave Zirin: No, that's right. DeMaurice Smith: The only difference is this is a multibillion dollar industry that has no compliance or accountability structure from the outside. Dave Zirin: You'd tell yourself that in 2009? DeMaurice Smith: I would... Yeah. I mean, there was

certainly an intellectual understanding of that. There wasn't a practical, emotional comprehension of that. Dave Zirin: Got you. DeMaurice Smith: And coming into this job where, unfortunately, Gene Upshaw had already passed away, so I didn't have someone in the chair who would at least be there to say, you're on the right track. You're on the wrong track. It's okay to feel these things. It's okay to understand

that you feel like you're free-falling. Think about it. We had to engage in a strategy... One of our foremost strategies to protect the union was decertifying the union. So you get elected in 2009 to head up the NFL Players Association in March of 2011. The smart legal strategy was to dissolve that same union. And intellectually, you can convince yourself that, yes, this is the thing to

do. But you're sitting in a room with a piece of paper and it has your name at the bottom of it dissolving the union that Ed Garvey and Gene Upshaw built. If you have an ounce of empathy, that is a sobering moment, and you're by yourself. So, no, the first 18 months, what I would've told myself in 2009, knowing what I know now, would probably advise

myself of, step away from the intellectual, you've got that. Appreciate the emotional, existential impact of what these next 18 months are going to be. Dave Zirin: Do you expect to be able to play the role for your successor? DeMaurice Smith: That's the only reason that I believe in transition. And after I got through that, somewhere around 2013 or so, I swore that this job was okay.

We fixed the issues that we needed to fix from the 2006 CBA into the 2011 CBA. And all of that was to set us up for the next CBA in 2020. So I spent just as much time trying to protect our pensions, not playing 18 games for free, not giving up 20%, shoring up our share of revenue, taking the ability of the owners to take money

off the top from us. All of that was a two-step. So you needed to fix that in '11, but as much time as I'm spending negotiating the 2011 deal, I'm spending an equal amount of time setting up for where we want to be in 2020. And that's the second part of the third step. But then the third step was, if we're able to land a solid

10-year deal in 2020 that does all the things that we wanted to do, or most of the things that we wanted to do, to get to a point four years in, three years in where we successfully transition, because my job is to prepare that next person, teach that next person. This job is hard. And the tough part, the toughest part about it, is there are no

parallel paradigms for this job. And so in 2020 when we signed the deal and I did my last contract in, yeah, '20 or '21, I told the players in '21, this is my last term, we need to think about the process to find the next person. This needs to be your process, not D Smith's process, but know this going into that search: I would consider the

2009 DeMaurice Smith unqualified to run this union in 2023. Dave Zirin: Wow. What do you think of the crop of candidates? DeMaurice Smith: I don't know who they are. Dave Zirin: Okay. DeMaurice Smith: And I don't want to know. Dave Zirin: Got you. Understood. DeMaurice Smith: When they decide who the finalists are, we'll do it, and the players will decide. Dave Zirin: I love asking you

this. I've asked you this at different points over the years. I think it's fun to root for the union guys. So can you DeMaurice Smith: You do? Dave Zirin: I think it's fun. DeMaurice Smith: You do? I'm not sure everybody thinks Dave Zirin: Yeah. DeMaurice Smith: Yeah. I can check to see where my trading card is trending [Zirin laughs]. My mom bought a few last night,

so that's five more. Dave Zirin: Who are some of the players that have been good union people? DeMaurice Smith: It's hard to Dave Zirin: You mentioned Michael Thomas. DeMaurice Smith: Yeah, it's hard to... Well, Michael Thomas is one of those guys who came in as a young member of the executive committee, primarily filled that role on the field as a defensive back special teams guy. But

the reason I love players like that is those are the guys who are, for the most part, signing successive one-year, two-year contracts. That's the core of our union. I know people see the Tom Bradys and the Jaylens and the Lamars and the Mahomes, but 70% of our players are on League-minimum contracts. So as an aside, when you're doing that 2020 deal and you have the ability

to raise all of those minimums by 20% with a stroke of a pen, that's what unions are for. And I want to be surrounded by guys who get that. But there's guys like Michael Thomas. There's... JC Tretter currently is a tremendous leader. Eric Winston was one of the best presidents we've ever had. I can make an argument that, other than Kevin Mawae, at least for my

tenure, I don't know of two presidents who carried so much weight on being a leader of the union. Kevin, again, think about that guy: Hall of Famer, center, he wakes up one morning, and Gene Upshaw's dead. So it falls to a group of players who we think of them as Hall of Famers now. But Drew Brees will be a first ballot Hall of famer. Brian Dawkins

wasn't a Hall of Famer at the time. Jeff Saturday, probably a future Hall of Famer, not a Hall of Famer at the time. Kevin Mawae is still playing. And you wake up one morning and a person who has run the union for about as long as you've been alive is gone. And you have to find the next leader knowing that the owners have already said that

we are going to lock you out in 2011 and we have $4 billion to drive your union into the ground. But guys like Richard Sherman have been tremendous leaders. Vincent Jackson was one of the best leaders we've ever had, that crop of quarterbacks. Dave Zirin: I think it's so important for people to hear this, what you're saying right now, because unions get so marginalized in the

national conversation. Beyond marginalized. Erased. DeMaurice Smith: Beyond marginalized, yes. Dave Zirin: Erased. So when you hear that some of the people who have some of the most cultural capital in the United States also being proud union people, that's important for people to know. DeMaurice Smith: Think about it. There's a wall You've been there in my office There's that wall that abuts my office, and it's life-size

fatheads of the plaintiffs who chose to sue the National Football League in 2011. And the lead plaintiffs were Brady Breeze and Manning. And it was important to have those players be the lead plaintiffs suing on behalf of every player in the National Football League. Why? Because I wanted to stick it to the owners that our top players were solidified around their membership, but I also wanted

to erase that legacy of the quarterbacks club from the '80s and the '90s, where a group of quarterbacks, and there's no simple way of saying this, sold their union out. Dave Zirin: Decided for themselves that they would be a labor aristocracy, basically. DeMaurice Smith: 100%. Dave Zirin: Yeah. DeMaurice Smith: At the expense of a group of people suing for free agency. So that bookend of having

the star quarterbacks lead that charge, and then one night getting a call on my cell phone, not knowing who it was but recognizing that the call was from somewhere in Texas, and I pick up the phone and it's Von Miller. And Von says, hey, I understand you're leading the players into this fight and we're suing the League for antitrust violations, I would love to be a

plaintiff. This is before he's drafted. Dave Zirin: Amazing. DeMaurice Smith: And you have to have a conversation with him, hey, look, I appreciate the help, but you are slated to be the number one pick. And you have to know that these owners may screw you because you've done this. It's the right thing to do. So where's the union? We're in a good place. Dave Zirin: Yeah.

So the next time you see Von Miller on the field, just know this. DeMaurice Smith: Those are the guys. Dave Zirin: Another future Hall of Famer. You've been so patient with your time. I only have a couple more questions. DeMaurice Smith: Dave, I'm here until you say you don't need me anymore. Dave Zirin: Oh. DeMaurice Smith: I'm serious. Dave Zirin: Well, that's amazing of you. DeMaurice

Smith: Look, I can only think of a handful of people that I would have this conversation with. Dave Zirin: Yeah. DeMaurice Smith: And it's because of your empathy and the fact that you are just such a great storyteller and a student of history. Because if you don't understand where this fits, it's just seriatim story after story, meaningless, with no thread. Dave Zirin: Exactly. DeMaurice Smith: But

you know what, if you read a book like Parting the Waters, another Baltimore guy, Taylor Branch, those stories are incredible stories. But this struggle is inextricably tied to the civil rights movement, and it's inextricably tied to the labor movement, and it's inextricably tied to historical fights for freedom and fairness and equality. And if you don't understand the frame of this, you are just blathering on ESPN

about third and long Which is why I don't do that anymore because I found my anger level and my emotional level to be on the verge of explosion. And so when I sit down with a writer, and especially in the past, writers that I know are good writers, only to have them either do an interview or result in a piece that is utterly devoid of historical

cultural labor frame, I find that absolutely maddening. And worse yet, I feel like I have perpetuated a stupid conversation. And I never have a terrible conversation with you for all the reasons we've talked about. So, Dave, I'm here until you decide. I mean, I'll turn off the lights. Dave Zirin: All right. I got to ask you this, because as we're doing this interview, there's some news

that came across the wire that you were being thought about for US Labor Secretary if and when Marty Walsh steps down. DeMaurice Smith: Steps down. Dave Zirin: Is this anything that you would have interest in? And if not or if so, what are D Smith's future plans? DeMaurice Smith: Honored to be considered... The president went in another direction and that's fine. I'm such a big believer

in organized labor and equally, if not more important, the role of the government to protect the labor rights of American citizens. So it was an honor to be considered. What's next. Look, I think that what's next on my plate is, while I'm not involved in the hiring process, to make sure that our players understand the necessity of finishing this process in a very strong way so

that I can then take the next step of teaching and preparing the person for this next job. We're in a great position, but, look, unlike 2009, we're running now two $1 billion businesses, and that's in my spare time as the executive director. So that's what's next on the horizon. I just wrapped up my second year teaching at Yale at the law school. You would... Dave Zirin:

I saw that. DeMaurice Smith: Man, it was tough at the end because I was juggling my schedule. But next year, I want you to be my lead-off speaker. My class this year was leadership, law, and ethics in sport. Dave Zirin: Okay. DeMaurice Smith: Leadership. Dave Zirin: Leadership. DeMaurice Smith: Right. Dave Zirin: And what that means. DeMaurice Smith: Well, it was great, because I think the students

figured out somewhere around week five, four of five, hey, wait a minute, this isn't a sports class. We're talking about morality and ethics and leadership. We're just using sport as the trick, the frame. So I'm going to continue to teach in some way, shape, or form. OneTeam Partners, the business that we built in 2020, is now valued in excess of $1.6, $1.7 billion. It's a consortium

and a private equity company of myself, Tony Clark from MLB, Becca Roux from the US Women's National Team Players. We have the rights of the National Women's Soccer League and the MLS players. And we combined our group licensing rights because I believe that that is the right way to protect players, their name, image, and likeness. Think about it, where we are in college sports now. The

leaders in name, image, and likeness was Marvin Miller who did the first trading card. I mean, you can't Dave Zirin: Marvin Miller, the legendary former head of the Major League Baseball Players Association. DeMaurice Smith: And also was someone who was so kind to me when I started this job. And I got to meet with Marvin somewhere between eight and 10 times before he passed. Dave Zirin:

Wow. DeMaurice Smith: Also, without a doubt, the scariest person I've ever met in my life. Dave Zirin: Scary in terms of intimidation before you sat down with him or scary once you started talking? DeMaurice Smith: Both! Dave Zirin: Okay. DeMaurice Smith: Both. I got introduced to Marvin through our good friend and late friend, Mike Weiner. Dave Zirin: Sure. DeMaurice Smith: Who also became the guy who

really taught me what this job was. I came in with a lot of ideas of what I thought this job was, but Mike Weiner and then people like you and certainly Marvin made me a trade unionist, made me a trade unionist. And now Marvin, I went up to meet him for the first time, and I was clutching a copy of his book, Whole New Ballgame. And

I will never You have time for this? Dave Zirin: Absolutely. DeMaurice Smith: So I go meet him in his apartment in New York. He had recently lost his wife. Sat down and had some tea. And I... Have you met Marvin before? Dave Zirin: I did an interview with him before he passed. Yeah. DeMaurice Smith: Just one of the most tremendous people. But Marvin, very slight, slight

man. Dave Zirin: Yes. DeMaurice Smith: Not a big guy. But the moment you meet him, you feel this tremendous force of unbridled passion. Sat down, made me some tea, sat in his living room, and he looked at me and he said, I'll spare you the expletive, but why in the did you take this job? No sane person would take this job. You have Dave Zirin: He

was articulating D in 2023 coming back in time to talk to you. DeMaurice Smith: And he took me through the history of labor with the NFL, which I knew. And he was very close to Gene. And he said, this job drove Gene insane. He's fighting for the players on one side and the players are fighting with him on the other. Do you have any idea, why

would you give up such a successful partnership and successful business to come do this? And literally, I kid you not, Dave, I'm sitting here like we are, except the book was on this side, and I will never forget just sliding the book behind me. And to this day, I never got Marvin to sign the book because I was terrified. Dave Zirin: Well, what did you say

when he asked you? DeMaurice Smith: I said, well, Mr. Miller, I think that I can fight for the players. There's things that I think I'm qualified to do. And he said, do you really think you're up for this job? And I said, I believe that I am. And he said, you have no idea who these owners are. You have no idea what they are capable of.

And then over the next course of the hour, he told me what he went through. Remember, they labeled Marvin Miller a communist. They did a good job of positioning him as a threat to the United States of America. And he said, this same thing is going to happen to you. And that was the first time, going to that first 18 months, that I walked out of

his apartment clutching my book without a signature of thinking, okay, what exactly did I get myself into? And I thought I would never meet Marvin again. That first meeting was so jarringly brutal. And then about two weeks later, I get a call at my office, pick up the phone, my secretary says it's Marvin Miller on the phone. I'm like, am I going to get yelled at

over the phone now? And he called me and he said, when are you coming back? Dave Zirin: Oh, wow. DeMaurice Smith: And so I went back about eight, nine times. And I credit Marvin for being that first person to steel me emotionally for the job. And people always ask me, hey, why did you come out of the box so hard? That was because of Marvin. And

he told me exactly what this was going to be, and he was 150% right. So the other thing I'll tell you is the last person who wanted to be in the baseball Hall of Fame was Marvin Miller. I know baseball players and the union did the right thing, but equally, I have no desire. No. So I'm going to teach... If OneTeam Partners continues to excel, I

believe that there's a role for looking at how to protect and empower European unions, sports unions. I think that would be an interesting thing to do. But the first thing I'm going to do is honor my wife's wishes, because I told her that this was only going to be a three-year job, and take some time off. We're empty nesters, and it's time to make sure that

I get back to being a good family guy. Dave Zirin: Okay. Tough on your kids or amazing for your kids to have you in this job for the last 14 years? DeMaurice Smith: I think it was tough on my kids. Dave Zirin: Okay. DeMaurice Smith: I think that... Especially for my daughter, I think that this sport at times... And, look, I'm happy about, certainly, where the

sport ranks in the ecosystem of America when it comes to entertainment. But what comes along with every year, you're 85 of the top 100 shows, you're 15 of the top 20 shows. My takeaway from that is people should read more books. We've reached a point where there is this never-ending persistent football, football, football. And what comes with that is, this is the only business that I

know of where every fan has the definitive understanding of what this business is, what D Smith should be doing, what the union should be doing, what Roger should be doing, what the players should be doing. And, again, going back to somewhere where we start, depending on which number of tequila I've had at the bar I only drink the good stuff. Dave Zirin: Yeah. DeMaurice Smith: But

you will get fans saying things to you that, A, have no basis in reality. But even when you explain to them, this is why this has no basis in reality, you've been there. Dave Zirin: Yeah. DeMaurice Smith: They will fight you to the death. And I think for my kids, look, it comes with the job, but do they read the things that people say sometimes? Yes.

Does it probably hurt their feelings? Yes. Does it make them tougher? Yes. So nobody likes to wake up one day with whatever newspaper it was, John Gruden had something to say about my wonderful lips. I would never say anything about somebody like that where you are turning them into a caricature, a racist trope. Roger and I will go after each other, and the owners and I

will go after each other, and I'm sure that they have certain conversations behind closed doors. But other than an owner calling me uppity at a meeting once, I find the And you know this better than anybody because you're in this business The tenor and tone of our conversation in America now looks more like 1963 than 2023. Dave Zirin: Absolutely. DeMaurice Smith: And sounds more like 1963

or 1953 than 2023. And so I think it's been hard on my kids, I think, either the physical absence or the mental absence that I'm the first one to admit I engage in has been somewhat tough on them. But I also think it's made them tougher. Dave Zirin: Now, you mentioned this in your comments, and this is my last question, really, you are a reader. DeMaurice

Smith: Yeah. Dave Zirin: What's on the nightstand? DeMaurice Smith: Oh, right now... So I have two books. On the nightstand at home, it is The Love [Songs] of W.E.B. Du Bois, which, Dave, might be one of the most beautifully written novels that I have ever read in my life. Debut novel. Her name is Honoree... I can't remember her last name now. But it follows four generations

of people from the 1700s to just about modern day. I'm trying to think of a novel that I would even make it close to, but it reminds me of Beloved, it reminds me of The Color Purple. It's one of the most Oh, and it reminds me of The Grapes of Wrath. Dave Zirin: Oh, wow. Now, I'm on my phone right now because The Love Songs is

in fact by Honoree Fanonne Jeffers. DeMaurice Smith: Her debut novel is... It's one of the most beautiful books I've ever read in my life. Dave Zirin: Amazing. DeMaurice Smith: So that's my home book. Dave Zirin: Yeah. DeMaurice Smith: My travel book is a biography of Woody Guthrie that was curated by his daughter, which I find to be amazing. A few years ago, I read, was it

poems by Bob Dylan? And this book felt like it was food for the soul for the moment. I'm in both a, obviously, job but also an emotional transition moment. And I love the idea of reading and connecting with American folk music because it's both past and present. That's the beauty of folk music. It provides context and understanding. And I picked up the front of it, and

there was this line from Woody Guthrie, and I think it was folk music is about who's hungry and where's the food at, it's who's hurting and where is the peace, who's in trouble and where is safety? I'm paraphrasing, but that's what folk music... Right? Right? Dave Zirin: Wow. DeMaurice Smith: And so reading through the evolution of his music and folk song storytelling journey has been fascinating.

Dave Zirin: Amazing. Hey, D Smith, thanks so much for joining us here on Edge of Sports, man. DeMaurice Smith: Dave, thank you for always being such a thoughtful friend. Dave Zirin: Absolutely. And I don't need this to make it on the air, but don't think for a second we're going to stop talking once you leave this job. DeMaurice Smith: No. Dave Zirin: Not for a single

solitary second. DeMaurice Smith: Well, I look at it this way, the next iteration of the job is, it's fun to think about being passionate about the things that I care about, being unfettered with the restrictions that I have to work under. Dave Zirin: Amen. Well, isn't that the dream? DeMaurice Smith: 100%. Dave Zirin: Oh, man. DeMaurice Smith: Brother. Dave Zirin: Thank you so much. DeMaurice Smith:

Man, you have no idea how cathartic this is for me. And it's been a [inaudible]. Dave Zirin: Oh, I got to do a quick sign-off. DeMaurice Smith: Done. Dave Zirin: Okay. Hey, thank you so much everybody for joining us here on Edge of Sports. Thank you so much to The Real News Network. We're going to keep bringing the ruckus.