DETRANSITIONING: LUKAS STORY

There's a lot going on in this discussion around gender and gender identity. This is just a taste of how the media is covering this in so many different ways. Take a look at this. Kean was born Caitlyn, but from his earliest memories, he felt trapped in the wrong body, living the wrong life. When Betty Thomas was seven years old, this children's book sparked a conversation about

gender. There was finally a breakthrough in those like three years of just complete anchor and sorrow. More and more young people are emerging as transgender. Under that, that's a whole umbrella of gender identities, where people might have pronouns that change day to day. There might be people who have one set of pronouns for the rest of their life. Taking away kids agency and the right to

their own body is, it's just, it's anti-human. It typically began in early childhood, it just two to four. Little boys insisting, no mommy, I'm not a boy, I'm a girl. When a two-year old comes up to and says, mommy, when is the good fairy going to come with her magic wand and change my penis into a vagina, you're like, okay, this is not typical. This is

not something a normal child would do. I get to go to medical school. My wife didn't go to medical school. So we trust that and we trust that they know what's best for our kids. We're only trying to follow what our medical community says or the best choices you can make as a parent. I'd rather have a living son than a dead daughter. What age does

the medical transition begin with medication? So medical information begins when the patient says they're ready for it. So that could be a kiddo who is just starting puberty and panicking because they're getting breast buds or their penis is getting bigger and busier and they're worried about all kinds of masculine changes. It's also exceedingly rare. Typically, afflicting roughly 0.01% of the population. The majority of whom would

have naturally outgrown it on their own and historically did. Others became what we used to call transsexual adults. Just now started hormone blockers. It's an implant. It is to prevent his puberty. This is an off label untested experimental use. It hasn't been through any FDA approval process. It's what I would call a chemical conversion therapy. The development of desire is mediated by the sex steroid hormones.

And if you've blocked them, then you've also blocked that development. Children actually reported great. Grader self-harm with his medication. Girls exhibited more behavioral and emotional problems. Greater dissatisfaction with their bodies. If you give them to a girl who's already started her periods, you're going to put her into an immediate sort of violent menopause. Transgender surgeries across the country are on the rise. As more insurance companies

are offering coverage for those procedures. And it's not just adults interested in the procedure. Ursula Perry shows us a growing number of teenagers. Now 17, he's had hormone therapy and had his breasts and uterus removed. Kean is part of a spike in demand for transitioning from teens around the world. Today I am having top surgery. It's really, really hard to look in the mirror and see

something that doesn't conform to how your brain or how you think you are. A young woman alleges she was coerced in the treatments of the age of 15 that caused problems. One minute, mutilation and damage to her body. When I was 15 years old, I had a double mastectomy. They removed both of my breasts. I'm 18 years old now and I'm quite frankly, I am devastated

with what has happened to me. Such a serious process to go down. And it's so experimental because, you know, doctors don't even know the outcomes of a lot of these treatments that are given out. I should have been, you know, told to wait and not affirmed in my gender identity. I was claiming to have. Yeah, just given intensive therapy, basically, to investigate the feelings that I

was having to try and, you know, figure out how I got to that stage. I was using the children. People are girls, summer boys, summer, both summer, neither. Gender is all about how we feel on the inside and how we express ourselves. We're telling children when they haven't fully developed that all you have to do is medically transition and you fit in. I was one of

those kids. It got me at 42. Your child doesn't have a chance. Plan parenthood gives out testosterone on a first visit. Depending on the state, it absolutely gives testosterone to minors. They gave you testosterone immediately. Yeah, I essentially just made a phone call and said, I want, I want to transition. And it was immediately given. Did they do any psychological testing? Did they ask you why?

What was your motive? It was completely self-diagnosed. Some of it's a social contagion. In other ways, it's is a heterogenic, which means that it's actually caused by the medical profession. So you start to get doctors and others. Misdiagnosing people. This was what happens with anorexia and bulimia. You know, these doctors identify eating disorders and then they publicize them and it gets all this publicity about it

and then the disorder spreads. Well, then there's all these gender affirming care clinics that pop up and they're enormously profitable, which is terrifying. Right. That they have the same as Eisenhower speech about the military industrial complex. They have a vested interest in going into war. These people have an interest in diagnosing people with gender dysphoria. If you confuse people about a fundamental element of their identity,

then those who are already so confused, they're barely hanging on, are going to fall prey to that and all hell's going to break loose. Not exactly what's happened in the, you know, in the trans, in the trans situation. Can you find it in a blood test? Can you do testings of genetics or can you do a brain image and find the gender identity in there? You

cannot. There is no objective test to diagnose it. So yet we're giving very harmful therapies on the basis of no objective diagnosis. Fast someone who has gone through their process, I think I can sufficiently say I don't want any children going through that process. It's incredibly turbulent. I guess that's the best word. It's, it's a lot to go through physically, mentally, emotionally. I don't know what

kind of role we're living in where it's now become people who don't want that to happen. Are the abusers and are the ones that are in the wrong. It is the fact that they are mutilated. It is about having anxiety daily rest down. Resurgraph. Turn around. Here's the truth. Do not click on it. It, positive. I can cannot. It's a human peppered Jesus. Okay. We need

to ask about that. When we think about our non-profit here, the informed consent, action network, what is informed consent? What is a child really capable of giving consent or understanding what these conversations are about? I think there could be plenty of conversations about is there something chemically that is happening in our environment? Today we are really looking at the social side of this and I think

that when you look at this chart, this is the Gallup poll. Just when you think about the change in having these conversations with children, 7.2% of U.S. adults identify as LGBT. That is what most of us understood to be the gay rights movement and their place in this world, which is, as I said before, I am totally open to them, walking with us, they are beautiful

people, they are my brothers and sisters. But look what has happened. Look at the different generations. The millennials rises up to 11.2% of them identifying in this category. And now Gen Z, 19.7. This is the latest generation born in 1997 to 2004. These teenagers now identify and God knows what is about to happen with these babies and children that are having these conversations in kindergarten first

grade. I am sure I speak for many of you. It is so outside of a frame of reference that I have that we really wanted to get a personal story. Someone that was involved and saw that they were having trouble as a teenager. And listened to this sort of new thought system, which says it is really all about your body, you are in the wrong body.

This is the story of Luka. I grew up in the Midwest. I did ballet for the majority of my childhood. I also did lots of different sports, volleyball, soccer, trap shooting. I didn't ever really think about being a boy or girl when I was younger. I was mostly just focused on being a kid. Around a junior high school, like end of seventh grade time, my parents

had begun to split up. The whole changing house is each week thing didn't work well for me. Mentally, kind of made me revert into myself in terms of hanging out with people or wanting to go and do things. It was a lot of, at that point, spending time on my phone outside of school, right around where I really started to go through puberty around like 13.

I was finding myself having crushes on other girls in my class. And also just feeling uncomfortable with my body at the time. And so I started to go through searching out different groups for support. I was thinking about what the LGBT community was because I grew up sheltered in a way and didn't really know what that was, looking more into it. When I heard some of

this stuff about you don't like certain parts of your body, your chest or the fact you're getting hips, because you're going through puberty, then if you're uncomfortable with that, maybe you're just born in the wrong body and you're meant to be a boy. I definitely felt understood in a way just because it felt like it was saying all the right things to describe how it was

feeling at the time. Being in more of these chat rooms and stuff, I started to open up about the fact that I was like, oh, well, I don't really like my chest or I don't like the fact I would got my period at that point. And I was just feeling like generally uncomfortable with growing up into a woman at the time. I had been talking in

these chat rooms for a couple of months at that point when it started to be people trying to get me to contact them outside of that group setting of the chat room. At first it was normally just okay, but I remember in Estelle, like talk about this stuff, talk about like sexual stuff, and then from there I got to like, oh, can you send a picture

of like one part of your body or another, they got to a point where I eventually did begin sending them naked pictures of myself. There was an aspect of like also threatening me if I did not continue with this being like, I'm going to find you, I like to find your parents. I did at the time feel like if I did not continue, then something bad

would happen to those people. Those are about me. At this point, I was severely depressed. I was having trouble getting up and going to school. I was just constantly anxious and like on edge I did end up harming myself using an iPhone with my eyes. A couple weeks after I had had issues with like the self harming thing, my parents ended up seeing some of the

messages and were so concerned they did end up getting the police involved. When the police came over they like, I took my phone and went through everything. I also ended up having to pretty much like strip in front of a female officer to look for any signs of abuse and self harm. At that point they didn't take me into custody or anything. I spent pretty much

the entire night just having a constant panic attack of like hyperventilating and not being able to breathe and like crying and like curling up in a ball and moving in. From that point I ended up in outpatient hospitalization. Well as Luke attries to find comfort or understanding what's happening whether of course for parents who are hanging in the balance, trying to figure out how to understand.

And as this psychologist medical establishment gets involved, Luke decides to make a very strong choice about her future. I was only a couple weeks or so into that first outpatient hospitalization that I ended up telling my parents that. I was having issues regarding my body and that I thought I was transgender. I reacted in wanting to be supportive of me but also at the time very,

very afraid because they were told by like the therapist doctor and the nurse they're like, okay if this is the issue that's going on, you need to like affirm this because would you rather have a dead daughter or a living son? I kind of tried just to downplay the fact I was female. I would wear the chest spinder and looser clothing and I had my hair

cut at the time starting my sophomore year at high school. I was just doing a little bit of research and email before class starts and be like, I would like you to call me by this name and if you could use key hymn pronouns, I would appreciate it. That is when I started to go through high school as a boy. At first I started hearing about

top surgery is similar to chest spinding. Like in all the online trans spaces it's one of the things that is talked about so much. You also have a lot of people posting about it and being like or like making videos about it and being like, okay well I got this done and look how like I feel great after this. This is euphoric, I feel amazing. And

so as someone who was uncomfortable with their breasts and was wearing a binder at this point like consistently almost like eight hours a day. Or more, I was like maybe this will help and I had talked about it with my therapist at this point a little bit. And from there she was like, yeah we could get you into someone in your city that can do this.

My therapist had like sessions where I was not there and it was just my parents. They thought that like, okay well this is this must be like an established like treatment plan in the medical like medical world if they're saying that this is okay. We don't want our kid to like kill themselves so we're gonna be supportive. So it was during the summer of 2018 in

July is when I was 16 years old and I had top surgery or double mastectomy. One thing that I know some of you was just the complete like lack of feeling in my test which I, I think it kind of it definitely freaked me out at first but then I've been told so many times that this is gonna help me. And I believe it helped me.

The next step from there in the November of my junior year I ended up starting cross-sex hormones or testosterone. As a result of taking testosterone I went through male puberty or the closest equivalent of male puberty that a female can have. My voice dropped, my skin got a very different texture, my hair got a different texture. My fat on my body redistributed. I grew an atom

zap of people, body hair, just all that stuff. I kind of like having a lower voice or I kind of like the fact that I got like a more defined jawline. Because it was stuff that at the time it was like okay well this is helping me pass his male. The next like progressive step I guess you could say in the transition that most people were

like oh get a hysterectomy. The doctor that I went to like at the gender clinic she was very much for it. She was like yeah if you want this yeah we can do it. We can get we can do this. And she made it sound like the simplest surgery ever that there wasn't a lot of health impacts as long as you like left your ovaries. I

mentioned it to my parents and they ended up talking with the doctor and being like absolutely not. It's my honor and pleasure to introduce you to Luca. Now Luca thank you for joining us today. Of course. And I want to thank you for being brave. This is such a sensitive and controversial issue and you're sharing you know very intimate details that I think are important to

this discussion and it's a conversation we're not hearing a lot about. So I want to thank you for taking that time. So let's just take it from that moment. The moment where your parents decide to you know just put their foot down. They've been going along with you. But the hysterectomy just went too far. What was that? What did that feel like for you at the

time? I mean I suppose at the time it was a bit confusing in the sense of like well we've gone along with everything else what makes this different in a sense. Because you know like my doctors and my doctors over the sitting like yeah this is a step we can take. And then you know, I'm going to say I'm going to go and get my doctor

in the center of the church. I don't know about my parents putting their foot down. But looking back I realize that they put their foot down because they actually had all of the information about what this does to a body especially because I was so young. Where as they didn't have that for anything else and they were relying on what they thought was well established science

with a lot of evidence. And as you talk about that we're going to talk about that. Well established science. Is that I mean are the psychologists that are speaking are they are they very confident about what they're saying in this space and do you have a sense of their background like I mean this feels like fairly new territory for psychologists are they representing it that way.

Um it was never represented to me as if it was a new thing. It was represented to me as if. So this is just like something we do and we have you know science to establish this. They talk about it. Similarly I suppose when you hear someone who has a very strong belief that something will work. They talk about it like that not like people who

have mountains of evidence. And you know well planned out studies with high quality evidence. They don't talk about it and from that perspective because people who actually care about the science behind it are also willing to accept that you know what we do have is very low quality and we need more and it will always be changing and we could be wrong. Whereas the professionals in

support of this that I've heard speaker I've spoken with. They very much frame it more so in the sense of a belief that this will work. Now you you. I've talked about you know almost like a placebo effect in that having had you know the top surgery. You didn't really have much feeling but you felt like oh this is supposed to solve my problem so it

must be. What was that feeling like I've watched these videos there is this relation to it. Did you feel in relation and how long did that last. I think for me it was less of feeling elated. And a lot of things. A lot more of feeling like a pressure had lifted from my chest and when you think about it that is exactly what did happen. Because

you know once I had this surgery I didn't need to bind anymore. So it really did make it where you know if you're crushing your ribs for eight hours each day. Of course it's going to feel like a weight was lifted when you no longer have to do that even you know if the the surgery was never really good. So it's really necessary to accomplish that

in the first place. Obviously you were young and part of this conversation is young people really involved in these conversations are having discussions about you know sex and what that means and it seems to be getting younger and younger. How much of this had to do with your attraction and did you imagine what future relationships would be with you as a man. Or was it more

just about yourself you know is it was it more about partnership or was it more about yourself. I think at that age it was very much more about myself. And you know I think it's probably like that for a lot of young people because I don't you know I don't think 16 year olds are exactly. Thinking that far ahead in terms of like oh what is

my future long term work. And I think that's what I think about the relationship is going to be like it's it was very much of if I sort myself out. Then I can deal with that later because I wasn't even in the mindset of processing what that would actually be like at the time. And in that process as you were looking at his direct to me.

Are there discussions of further more dramatic surgeries. It was really going through the steps of like this is what I'm supposed to do. And I hadn't gotten to that part where after this or any other surgeries were discussed. But it very much did go down the line of like okay well I have a flat chest. And so I think the you know the next thing for

my transition would be okay. We're going to start hormones you pass more as male. And then after that it was like okay we've got unused to that kind of stuff. Into it. What's next? Well what's the next step? The next step is well it would be a hysterectomy. So that we don't get pregnant just just stuff like that. When did you start to question the decisions

that you'd made was you know did it happen slowly or did something trigger it when you started thinking maybe this isn't the right path for me. Um. I would say the first time I really questioned if this was right was very very briefly the thought popped into my head during the spring of my freshman year of college. So what would have been last year. Um. Were

it really popped in my head of at the time I had gotten to the point where I was very tired of taking a pill every day in the form of the SSRI's I was on. And so I decided that I really wanted to stop that and like lean off of them and then really work on myself and be able to manage it without manage anything I

was still dealing with at that point without medication. And you know as a part of that of course as I'm getting off this one medication it did slip in my head of like well I don't want to be reliant on medication but I still am taking hormones every week. The injection. And then at that point you know end of the semester rolled around I was still

taking testosterone I went to go work for the summer so that's just a whole like stopping it slip to the back of my mind. Um. After the summer was over though I. Some of some things almost clicked and I just started thinking more about well what do I want my life to look like now what do I. What do I want for my family. What do

I want for my future relationships. What do I want if I want children. Um. And along with that also realizing just how much I was tied down to a medical industry because of the fact that I you know needed a pharmacy nearby to fill this prescription I had to have the syringes and the sharps container and do make time for this injection every week. Even though

I. At that point hated doing it because it just it hurt and it was not. You know it wasn't making me feel better and at that it felt like it was tearing me apart. Can I ask you a question just about the SSRIs that you decided to start getting off of and we've talked I've talked a lot of people for all the different reasons they're taking

it but did those start. Before you made this decision to transition or did they were they added on to a part of the program after you made that decision. They were before I throughout my teenage years I had been on several different medications for depression anxiety. Um at various different doses but it was it was before. How did that. Those make you feel. They really blunted

out my emotions to the point where I really wasn't feeling anything like instead of having any highs or any lows it was just like a baseline of I wasn't getting excited about things I wasn't really feeling sad at that point. And you know I got to the point where I was like I anything I've gone through I can't. I don't feel some of those emotions and

really you know figure out where they're coming from and how to help them. I got tired of just blunting everything out when I really wanted to work on it. And then it got to the point where you know around last year when I stopped I realized there was so much that I was never even given a chance to work on because of how. Blunting these were

to my ability to even feel and process emotions. Would you have perhaps made a different choice in the idea of transitioning if you hadn't been on those drugs. Um I feel like maybe if I hadn't been on them I would have at least been given a chance to maybe work through. Some of what I went through. At least emotionally and really. You know maybe benefit from

therapy but then again it was. It was almost solely focused on the transition thing anyway so. Just so I'm clear you know that really came from interactions with people online. It wasn't coming from you know your teachers inside your school or nurses. This was something you really found this community online that really started. In rolling you in the start that this was your issue. Is that

is that. Yeah. It really took what at the time where. You know both. Issues from being preyed upon but then just also normal teenage insecurities and really really kind of twisted them into this feeling of. You're just a boy trapped in the wrong body or this is if you even think if you're even questioning if you're trans it means you're trans. Hmm. And so you know

there's obviously a lot of support when you were thinking about the idea that you might be in the wrong body you should transition. Is there support when you start moving the other direction when you want to detransition is there the same level of support that's available to you. No absolutely not. There is. Barely any aside from. A few the few other people who are vocal about

it. Who will share their experiences for it or small communities online that get frequently attacked. For even talking about this object. It's you know medical professionals don't know what to do with you. There's no larger really support groups for this. It's. A very very isolating feeling. You know they they were so supportive going one way. And then the minute you. Mention that you you made a

mistake or you didn't want this or this didn't work all of a sudden they don't really want much to. You you did some where you started doing research you started looking at what you'd been through posting we've talked about this drug lupron. Which can get puberty blocker which wasn't something you did but what happened when you started hosting is anyone aware of the science around this

and asking questions about what you were involved with how how are you treated when you did that. Yeah I posted something that just went through like. The side effects of lupron in other places. It has been used. And the problems that occurred when it was used. And I posted something about you know the Florida Board of Medicine doing a review of the evidence and something with

the NHS. And I didn't really give my opinion on these either I just posted them because I was like oh well that that's interesting this is information you know I thought people would. Want to have this information. You know that's when a few people were like I can't talk to you anymore or and told me that if you if you keep posting stuff like this you

are you are killing trans kids. Wow. And it was at that point that I was like that's but that's not. This is just information and everyone deserves to have all of the information. And how is me merely posting the side effects of a medication active. And I was like I was really being used. Harming someone. And you know that was one of my moments where I

was like I. I really don't. Understand why any questioning of this community. It's seen like that because you know any place you're not allowed to ask questions should be seen as a very dangerous one. I agree. So how long ago did you decide then you you you. Back off of the S. S. R. I. You're getting off of those. And then the testosterone how long ago

did you stop taking the testosterone shots. I stopped taking testosterone in. What would have been late September early October. So it's been less than year. Well Luke allowed us to spend some time with her and discuss some of the issues that are going on through this phase of her life that is now. Now referred to as the transitioning. This is what that is all about. Yeah

so since I stopped to my acne has gone really bad. I've tried to use like concealer on it. And that just made things worse. So I just kind of have to leave it at this point. Along with that just the general like even though I'm off T. I still have like issues with like facial hair. Body hair and just obviously my my voice is kind of

stuck this way now that I'm off T as well. So also from testosterone even though I don't take it anymore. I developed an Adam's Apple while I took it. And so that is kind of just there now. I can't do anything about it. The only option would be surgery which I'm not wanting to look into at the moment. To like make estrogen or anything like that.

And so I was I was essentially going through like almost like menopause symptoms of like feeling nauseous getting headaches. My joint my joints still hurt even off of T. Physically it's just a lot of weight and see. Weight and see what will get better. Weight and see what I wait and see. What will bounce back versus what we pretty much know is permanent. I was like

I do kind of want a family someday. Have I ruined my chances of having biological children at 20 years old because of something I did as a teenager. Looking back as I do regret getting the mastectomy. I I'm not going to be able to do that. I take responsibility for my partner but I also can't beat the only one. I was a teenager on like who

had a history of mental health issues at this point. And I approached with the idea of like hey I want to cut this part of myself off to feel better. And the medical community went yeah okay. It became no you're born in the wrong body there is something wrong with you. And you need to be medicalized to fix this. Like I'm not going to be able

to do that. It was a certain loss of innocence of childhood. You and I both know that we've been trying to figure out if you would be able to do this interview because you really aren't feeling very good at this time. Do you mind sharing with me you know sort of what's going on with your health as you're sort of going through this process. Yeah. At

the moment and this has been an issue. As I've gone off team. I've been trying to be in it's getting progressively more apparent that there was damage done while it was on T and it's like almost been slowly revealing itself the longer my body's off of it. But lately I've been having heart issues where it's just like it's chest pain. It's my heart is beating way

too fast. Or feels like it's skipping at times. Then it makes me feel like I might pass out and when that happens. It's like I'm going to be able to do it. Really is a matter of just I need to lay down and I'm almost out of commission for the day. Similarly, I still deal with I still deal with joint pain. And you know I had

there are my days with that to where I'm just I'm just stuck in bed. I can't I can't do much. What kind of doctor are you working with and or they is this like something they do a lot of do they know what they're do feel like they know what they're doing. The only doctor I've been able to get into to talk to her about this

stuff has been a a doctor who essentially is the same kind that I went to when I was on T. She's someone who specializes in transgender care. And while she's nice enough and has offered to help me. She doesn't really know how she told me you know. I really don't know what to do with you. There's no pernacle for this. Which is one of those things

where that that's not reassuring to hear from a medical professional that you came to because your body is falling apart. And in other terms of finding someone else finding anyone else who's willing to kind of work through the damage done and actually help me has been incredibly hard. I think that's very scary. I mean just any help issue we like to think that there's. Specialist that

really know what they're doing here and yet this is such a new thing. I guess you're you know you're yeah you know. I did tell my original physician. Back it back in January on a on a quick zoom call with her. That was supposed to be like my annual appointment. I told her everything that was going on about my. About how you know this was wrong.

I didn't believe I could consent to this at the time. About my joint pain. And she essentially told me that. She's like yeah she probably see someone but also that this was just. This was just part of my gender journey and took almost no care responsibility. In the fact that she was one of the people. That put me down this path. I mean someone that you

really put a lot of trust in. It took you you know really help facilitate. A very aggressive path for a child. And then the moment you really seek to have some understanding they're just not there. What does that feel like. It really does feel like a complete. Like sense of just you've been abandoned by the medical community. They were you know the medical community was more

not much help is given if any. What is your relationship with your parents been you know. Recently I mean obviously they tried to work through they put their foot down on his direct me and now where are they at in all of. Probably one of the hardest and like most heartbreaking things I ever had to do. Because she was someone that did have like vocally had

reservations about the mastectomy. And. Those were essentially quashed by everyone around her. Out of you know you can't you can't speak up again about this you can't you have to affirm. And so having to you know call her. And then you know you can't be like. I you know I messed up and I'm sorry you know I had to tell her I'm so sorry you were

right I should have. I should have listened when you told me to wait or that I was too young or that someday. You know maybe I want to have kids or want my body the way it was. But we're slowly trying to work through everything and I feel like in some ways it has. You know. Brought us closer that specific for her that she she has

her daughter back now. There's going to be a lot of parents watching you know or are watching right now and and. Is do you imagine is there anything your parents could have done your mom especially. To. Move you in a different course or do you just feel like this whole thing is stacked against the parents and their ability to intervene. I feel like specifically with how

the system is set up now. Where it is essentially affirmation only and parents who question it. Are you know they're shut down or they are emotionally blackmailed with. The threat of suicide. And. You know I've I've talked to a lot of parents who have taken. A lot of different approaches down to handle these issues with their kids and they all come from a place of love.

No matter what you know path they take. But in terms of what could have really. You know. Helped me I think. You know if my parents really would have. Maybe you know shut down the internet access and. Really kind of you know if you're taking one thing away replacing with another so for taking away the internet replacing it with. More you know like actual quality family

time and just making sure I knew. I was loved and supported and cared for how I was and that I didn't need surgery to change that or anything to change that. And that. Puberty is uncomfortable but you will make it through it. And I wish that the medical community would have. You know given me therapy for the issues I actually needed help with and helped me

build the skills to get through those issues. As opposed to affirming. What could almost be seen as like a disassociation or maladaptive coping skill. Of reverting into this identity. So now you're obviously getting you're getting very active. You're speaking out publicly. You are you know doing things like this. And we're very appreciative of that. You know there's a real push now and and and very sort

of just right now with states school systems. Looking at you know even making these you know these conversations start younger we're looking at. Fourth grades you know parents that are grappling with their child and secrecy rules where the parents aren't being told. That the children being asked about their gender identities. You know you were 16 which is still very young. When you think about you know

nine year olds 10 year olds 11 year olds. That are now being approached with this conversation. What are your thoughts and about that. I think kids should be kids and they they should be left out of this. You know they deserve a safe environment where if a kid is having these struggles. That they can you know talk through with their parents or an actual professional. That

is trained like medically from a dog not a teacher. About what is going on. And be given a chance to grow up. And most likely grow out of these feelings. But at that same time when you are introducing these concepts to kids. Where it very much feels like you are asking them to put themselves in a box. You are in a way killing off a portion.

Of that magical imaginative exploration that is childhood. By asking these kids to label themselves to. Have to put them. Or maybe school clinical aid, basket . So consider yourself in such a box boxes which are often really defined on regressive gender stereotypes of oh. If you like pink. And you know you like pinkin dolls maybe you're you're just a girl and if you you know if

you're a tall boy maybe you should be an actual boy. It really is in a way ending a sense of childhood innocence through the guise of being kind. And you know obviously parents also shouldn't be kept in the dark about this. I always find it funny that the same people that talk about. You know if these children are at risk, you know of either you know

severe mental comorbidities or suicidal ideation. Why you would almost break your duty as a mandated reporter by keeping that a secret. I think you know families need to be involved. Regardless of you know really what a child's going through. Having that supportive environment where the parents are active in their child's life is very important. And if a teacher is so afraid of abuse happening at home.

They shouldn't be keeping that a secret that way either they need to go to the proper people to report that to so that can get sorted out. You know no matter what. What is happening between you know no matter what is going on there should never be a situation where you have a teacher and a kid going oh don't or don't tell just don't tell your

parents this is our secret. And that throws up so many red flags if that is happening regardless of what that topic is. You know I've seen you in some of these discussions really getting pushed back from the transgender community. You know about this idea and the real conversation right now is do we give children puberty blockers keep them from going through puberty. So that this decision

they've made at a very young age can almost be permanent you know and some people will call it medical castration. Why should a child be making a permanent decision. What do you say to those that you know are in the community that said it saved my life. You know this is you know kids will commit suicide if they're not given this control over their body. What

you know how do you respond to that attack really from the community that you had sought to join. I mean I suppose going point by point here in terms of you know pausing this it's it's not a neutral act you're you are interfering directly in stages of abuse. stages of development that once your time to go through those stages of development passes you really can't get

that back. It is not a neutral pause button. And from these studies we do have. We also know that it is well documented that the vast majority of young children dealing with these issues. If a lab to go through natural puberty where their brain matures a little bit and is you know flooded with the correct hormones and their body starts to develop. They will grow out

of these feelings and oftentimes maybe we'll just grow up to be gay. We also know I you know I'm I'm aware there are people. In the community who say that this saved their life. And you know I do kind of have two responses to that is oftentimes these are people who maybe went through it. You know let's say 10 years ago. When the process was very

very different. And they did receive pushback on these feelings. But also you can say that looking back. But you you don't know what would have happened had you been given the chance to grow without that. You know you don't know if maybe. Like psychological intervention and waiting would have been the best. Because it is very important. And it is very easy to look back. You know

and say this saved my life. When you know the grass is always greener for you still. Right. And you know I also suppose in terms of. You know children being given this much autonomy kids are very like I mentioned they are very imaginative. They are very. You know almost fluid and how they explore the world. And I think cementing. A decision. And a child has let's

say like nine. You know is is really you are taking such a gamble. With both that child's health. And their future. And you are making it on their behalf. Because you are the adult that child. You know regardless of how much they're saying they want something. They cannot understand the long term impacts of that. And you are taking that gamble. And you know it is one

of the things where if we look back and we all thought about what we were like when we were nine. And imagine having what we wanted that that time cemented into permanent reality. I think we would be living in a very worrying world if we all did that. And so it should be just as worrying in these cases. And actually like loving committed adult relationship is

like they don't have that concept. They're children. They don't really have the capacity to understand. That full concept. You know they don't understand what you know early osteoporosis or. Any of these other side effects truly mean. And I think we live in a very worrying world. Where. We have taken the barriers. That are necessary in childhood development. For kids to push back on and healthily push

against. To explore themselves. And instead of you know keeping those barriers so kids actually have that room to explore themselves within the confines that they were still children. Instead we have taken away those barriers completely and replaced it with a medical industry that can only affirm. That's really brilliantly stated. And I had really thought about that. It's almost hypocritical in that you're saying let the child

explore and then you're locking you into one of the explorations they took. Instead of if we're going to be open minded about let the child explore in and out of. Their you know the worlds that they want to sort of play with his children. It's really. Really important I think. And it's I just want to thank you so much for taking this time. I think this

is obviously a conversation that. We're also very confused about and I also want to say that you know my heart goes out it is clear. There's a lot of. Generous for you or how have we discussed it confusion in the space. For whatever that's worth I think these are troubling times there's a lot of. Internet you know even in the fact that the internet sort of

is making us all alone we're not interacting as much I mean. How much is all of those issues coming into play here but. It's been very helpful and I know it's it's not easy to talk about the things you are you are really truly courageous. In in the work that you're doing and I also want to say to you you know we talked a lot of

doctors and so I'm going to. Do some research I even have one coming up here in a minute that I'll talk to but. We're going to try and see if we can find something that is a little bit better equipped to handle what you're going through and see if we can help out okay. Thank you I appreciate it. Alright look take care and I look forward

to hearing how your journey continues and wish you all the best. Alright key to.