Working on True Security within Ownership with Rub

What is up everyone? Welcome back to another episode of the Divi Crypto podcast. And today I am joined by Ruben Mer and he is the CEO and co-founder of Ngrave. How's it going Ruben? Hey Steve, I'll go down this side of the world. How are you? I'm doing beautiful. Doing beautiful. So before we get into Ngrave, I'm really excited for this. Let's talk a little bit

about your origin story. How did you get into crypto originally? Okay, me personally. Yeah. Okay. Good question. I've always been quite into investing. So I guess it's from it started. It really started off as actually being even you could say almost a disciple of Warren Buffett and value investing. As we're trying to find companies that are extremely undervalued and based on basically investing those. And unfortunately

is sort of, you know, sort of, okay, something bubbly is going on, which actually kept me on the sidelines quite long. So I think I met a, I first saw Bitcoin in 2014. I was actually doing sort of a strategy 2020 for a, for a large financial institution as a project as a consultant. And yeah. So I obviously came by Bitcoin. I think it was $102.00.

I looked at it, but didn't do much more than that. And then by 2017, my co founder, I think, I think I'm going to be able to do that. And we're at that point, he just pointed out to me, like, look, Ruben, just take a look under the hood of this thing and tell me if you like it or not. And that's when I actually got

closer in touch with the technology. And for me, my, my career or let's say my, my own personal purpose is really to, you know, create new things to innovate all exists. And, and, and always strive higher to actually have a positive impact on people's lives. That's the for me that's that's really the main drive driving power behind everything I do. So for end wave, where let's

say before crypto, I, for example, launch or the first automated investment platforms back in Europe, which made it possible for every Joe next door to invest in a portfolio that with automatically rebalance and basically was at least on par with the same action. And then I was actively managed funds for, let's say, the rich, the rich guys on the other side of the street. So for

me, it was sort of empowerment of the masses to be able to actually have a good portfolio as well. And so with me, what hit my buttons, so to say, when I looked under the root of, of blockchain was that role, the really, the real power of decentralization. So if you, if you think about all the houses being wiped down by a, by tsunami in a

developing country, the issue you have is that a dictator with decentralized database simply, it soons them all and takes it and takes ownership of all the single pieces of property there. And nobody can really go against it because there is no blockchain, so to say, the moment that there is blockchain and everybody has the same version of the truth, they can actually finally start fighting back,

so to say. And for me, that was an eye opener because you can actually apply that principle to almost any other situation you can think of. And that made it for me, that that was a decision moment for me to actually also start investing in the technology, so in crypto basically. It wasn't that the best time, but for me, it was, it didn't matter. I just

wanted to average cost average down into investing in this space. Cool, very cool. And I think, you know, this is a very relevant conversation given everything that's gone on over the last, we'll call it a month or two months even with Celsius. And some of these, these big centralized operations that, you know, people weren't holding onto their keys, people weren't, they were very trusting of these

companies that were claiming that banks are evil and they're, you know, you're safe with them. And, and it just kind of has exploded in this space. It's just really negative way. And it's a great kind of time for businesses like in grave. So let's kind of unpack this a little bit, one piece at a time. So high level, you know, how, how did engraved start? And,

you know, what, what is the goal of engraving? And then we could talk about kind of the underlying tech and whatnot. Yeah. So engraving sort of a movement that comes from our own bitter experiences in, you know, having lost crypto and being, being hacked. And I think the biggest story we have as a, as a tree co founder of Engrave is, is, is career micro founder

in 2016. He did an ICO with his project on Ethereum. And in 2017, this project was hacked for 44,000 Ethereum. So it's one of the most mind blowing amounts. You can lose, of course. And what triggered them after experiencing this and let the little thing, the hour is that followed, they, they tried to figure out the vulnerability in the smart contract. They found it. And they

actually drained all the other projects that were also being protected by that same smart contract, which was about 500 projects in the world, 208 million dollars that they actually stole. And then they gave it back once they could fix what was actually causing the, the hex in the first place. And that was sort of a light bulb that went on in, in our, in our heads.

So to say, we have to be flashing like security is absolutely not where it should be. And so that, so during the, the first month of 2018, we started, literally challenging each other with questions. Like if you would have to put other crypto in place, where would you put it? And we couldn't formulate an answer on that question when we looked at the outside world. So

we decided to build it ourselves. And in April 2018, we couldn't name on that. And that name was, we thought, I think it's a good idea. And it was a new wave. And so for us, the goal was to build a solution and to end, taking care of every single aspect of your customer journey, from creating strong keys to tomorrow, you pass on to the next

life and your kids new access to your crypto. And all the security challenges in between. And we didn't want to compromise at any point in time on your security. So security was holy, so to say. And we also wanted to build something that was 21st century. Like swiping tapping. Which we equipped to, which was absolutely impossible in 2018. We have a few solutions today, but they

have many pitfalls that haven't been resolved. And yeah, so the last four years, we really spent that time to build sort of the ultimate solution. And to be fair, I think we actually have passed our own expectations. Nice. And I remember in probably 2018, there were just all sorts of private key services that came out because after 2017, so many retail investors got wrecked. And people

were losing keys left and right. And it was kind of this boom of private custody and private key hygiene, I guess you could say. And I was really curious about this model that you guys have where it is literally like an engraved piece of steel. Right. I mean, for the private key management side of things, could you walk us through the rationale there around like that

there's two plates, right? Of the steel. And yeah, could you walk us through that a little bit and explain it? Yeah. So I think there are two reasons why, let's say, when we started looking into all the little steps of your security when you have keys, that we were completely mind blown by step zero, which is, how do you create a strong key? So out today,

we're going to be able to do a lot of things. There in the world, banking security solutions, hardware wallets, those are typically the, let's say the ones who should make the best keys, we realized that their keys actually had quite some issues. So that keys today actually aren't with quality. So what we had to invent a new key because of that, because we wouldn't want to

compromise in your security. Eventually, this led us to patent a new key, which we call the angry perfect key. And one thing that's special about it is it is, 64X format. So today's users typically use 24 words. And that simply represents, you could say, 256, 0s and 1s, and that's your actual master key, which is what is made by your hardware wallets, or by your midterm,

asking, so on. Those typically are the words today. And we added an extra format 64X to that. And one of the powers of the perfect key is exactly when it comes to the back up. So, there were three things you wanted to fix or solve with the back up. The first one was, if somebody, sorry, the first one is, if you, if something happens to your

back up, is it game over? Like today, 90% of all backups are made of paper. So if I spill water on my paper back up, it's game over. Right. So we wanted to build something that was extremely resilient. And therefore, graphing became stainless steel. And to give you an example, if your house burns down, that's maxed out. So, maximum about 1000 degrees Celsius, graphing doesn't start

melting until 1600 degrees Celsius. So, whatever you can want to try out with this with our backup, it is extremely resilient. The second important part is, let's say, you know, how our house burns down, that thing is still there. You find my backup, you have my key, and you can import it in the wallets, and you basically have access to all my crypto. Or if you

just find my piece of paper today, it's the exact same thing. Cut that piece of paper in two parts of 12 words. But again, the finder will also always have information to get to your key. So we really wanted to obliterate your key into two meaningless parts, into sort of an encrypted solution. And that's exactly what graphene is. The graphene is consist of two different stainless

steel metal plates. And because of the 64 hex format, we are actually capable of completely splitting the key. And then we can see into literally an upper plate and a lower plate that if you would find either of them, there is nothing what you can do with it. There is not a single piece of information. You really need both plates. So, ideally, of course, as a

user, you keep them set. And then the third part, and then it's also one of the big issues today. Everybody's losing keys. It's a bigger issue actually than X and 4 million of the 21 million Bitcoin are already lost forever. Because people just lost the keys. So, we actually were able to make graphene recoverable. So if you lose graphene, there is a way that we can

help you recover it, but we will never be able to know your key. And so in that way, and obviously that's quite abstract like this, but if you see graphene, it's pretty straightforward. We were able to solve all of these enigma that nobody else even bothered to resolve. Yeah, I think that it is such a casualty of early adoption. That level of Bitcoin that are lost,

I've heard some horror stories. And that's crazy about your co-founder getting hacked. I mean, I've been hacked twice over the years. Sim swapped a couple times. I think there's a lot of things in this space that people don't really realize when they come into it. And it's a spectrum is how I've always described it. It is start with something you're comfortable with, like a coin base,

learn about self-customity. Learn about things like an engrave and some of these private key management, self-management services. And I always recommend people spend some time to learn it. You don't have to dive right in, but just use what you're comfortable with to get into the space and then slowly work towards the optimal self-custody solution. So it's cool that you guys are doing this really simple thing.

I think you're kind of offline model. And I like that it is solving the paper problem because I remember actually giving my nephew a paper Bitcoin wallet once upon a time. I think it was like 2014 or 2015. And it was like this flimsy little thing that, you know, I had like $100 on there or something. And I just remember doing it and giving it to

him. And it was just the most insecure, like really goofy way of transferring it. So I love you. Of a future technology doing it on paper just didn't seem right. So it's cool that you guys have that kind of dialed in. What exactly are you guys seeing in terms of traction with people? Is it all retail investors? Are you seeing a lot of more sophisticated investors

buying this type of hardware? What are you seeing on your end? Well, engrave has always been a security company. And instead of let's say, we're looking to a BTC company. So today we are, let's say exclusively almost telling to retail customers. But as you can imagine, the technology as such, we've worked four years on it. So we have the zero error or a lot. We have

the, we have a fully 100% air gap offline, a lot such green device. And it is also the only financial product in the world with the highest security certification you can attain. So this level is called the, you know, the high security. Eale seven, they're basically seven levels in the world. There is no other solution and actually even achieved seven. So again, no compromise on your

security. We really live up to our promise. And yeah, could you remind me what you, what you, what you asked them. Yeah, that was good. Go in towards retail, which I believe are the, the definite people that need to learn this. Yeah. So, so what I wanted to do to go to work is this thing exists. The form factor is there, the security is there, everything

you want is actually there. But we now have to do it. Let's also, let's say part of English future is we will tailor this device. For example, to, to, to, to be requirements. But it will come down to implementing business requirements, whether than having to change the whole solution. Right. It will be, okay, I want to be five out of eight, which zero will already be

able to do in the next few months. And those are the typical things like governor. And so on, so on that business role, we'll ask for. So you could say that the, the, the most extreme parts of the building has been done. And out, we're listening to the, to the users to the, to the customer segments and, and see what they want. At this point and

B2B is going to be quite, quite a bit of this. Got it. So let's go through kind of the status of where you guys are at. This has been an development for a long time. And he said four years has been really, really, really good. And he said, we have really, really developing the technology. What's next for you guys? Is, is, is there some new products

that you're rolling out? You know, what does the next 12 months look like? Yeah, I think so we start shipping in November 2021. So, I guess we don't support all the coins yet. We, there, so it's in a sense. We are innovating, but at the same time, we're making sure that we are also fully up to speed with, with all the, all the technologies that exist

today. And then from there, we are going to be able to, we can, we can start leapfrogging, so to say. So if we, with example, look at the last quarter, we technically supported Fiat all ramp, but we haven't, uh, rolled it out yet because of the, the regulatory framework. Um, we have, we support NFTs. So eat NFTs today are support the Solana and so on based

will come in the near future. Well, relevant coins like Solana, Tezos around, uh, a stellar aluminum and so on, uh, are also already supported. And, uh, yeah, I think one of the, one of the, one of the, and, uh, nice things that will come in the near future is, um, we have worked behind the scenes, so to say with Metamask, um, I leave it to Metamask

team on buildings, sort of a QR code standard for the entire industry. Because it needs to be something that everybody can easily adopt, um, from the, let's say wallet size so that we can actually much more easily and faster secure anybody is using a Alt wallet, um, but can from that point on sort of make their private keys. Offline on zero, keep them offline on zero

and use their favorite app, be it a hot, uh, be it a hot wall like Metamask or something else to actually do their DeFi, um, actions they want to do. Because today if you look at it, not all it's one of the last things they actually look at or, or, or, or good at is security because of the online nature because you have to give you

your keys and so on and so on. So that's really a strong point for English. QR codes is the way we interact with the outside world. And with zero, um, everybody knows how to use them, their intuitive, their fast, they're actually secure, their transparent. So you know what's going on, the QR code, you can see please scan one and see if we're hiding malicious code in

there. Um, and so that's kind of the, um, announced in the next few weeks. And that's really obviously something amazing that can help the industry be more secure. Um, on the, on our level, we're adding multiple for BTC in the next few months. Uh, the past. As for this was something we didn't implement yet. So that's that will be there as well. ENS names is a

big trend. That's also going to be supported in the next quarter. Preferably tracking a lot of the additional coins and their, and their derivatives, so to say. Um, and we also have completely revamped the mobile application. Um, to make it ultra sexy. And that should be around the beginning of August. Actually, we'll get out. And that's, that's just like I would say what I mentioned. So,

as far as basically for the next few weeks. Um, and thank you for it. And then beyond. We will overcome. Yeah. A lot more. You can find, you can find it all on the, on the road map page on the website. So whenever you wondering what's kind of come next, you can just go and check it out there. But I would say in the shell. This

is, this is, is it cool. Very cool. Well, those are all the questions I have for you. The kind of bonus here that I wanted to do was what get you excited and inspired. I think you've been in the space for a long time. You've been building. Why don't you share with some of the, the newcomers to the space, you know, what you get up in

the morning and you're checking your phone, you're super hyped about. Um, just to get people, people excited. Yeah. I mean, um, the reason why I jump out of my bed every day and everybody, my team does the same is because of the shared purpose we have today, which is we want to protect everybody out there. Right. And so our internal goal is to protect 500 million

users with our technology. By 2032, there aren't even 500 million users right now. Um, but that's really our main goal. It's, uh, to make sure that we have that impact on everybody that you can sort of, and what we call this, uh, we want people, we want to empower people so they can master their wealth and with our solutions so that they can actually live the

lives they want. They can, they don't, you shouldn't have to focus on his micro to the secure is it's still there. Um, you should actually be able to focus on everything else. So we could summarize it as freedom. We want you to be free. And do what what actually makes you happy. And so having a good crypto portfolio may lead to that. And security is all

the most important parts of it. And if you look at, um, last four years, because if you are not purpose driven like us, like, like this, then four years in crypto is easily equal to 40 years in the, in the normal world, so to say. So by now we are a grand pass. We've worked on this our entire life. Um, while everybody was, uh, hunting for

the next uh, ten X, uh, in a coin, we could have done, let's say, ten ICOs are in the, in the last four years, right. But we didn't because for us, it's not about that. It's really about, um, it's about the protection of everybody. And that is what we are most excited about. There are other things, of course, uh, we, but, um, I would say the

real emphasis for us is literally, literally that. Very cool. Well said. Well, those are all the questions that I have for you, Rubin, for everybody that's listening, all the links, uh, that we talked about will be in the show. And thanks so much for coming on and sharing more about engrave and just your background Rubin. Thanks so much, Steve.