DEBATE On Trans Kids | Krystal Kyle & Friends Podcast

so I wanted to get into there's Arkansas case on trans issues that I wanted to get to we also have what I would consider a Crackdown or war on drag queens and then a little bit later on we can get into um the Target and Bud Light boycotts potentially the Dodger stuff and then also the Trump indictment and Hunter indictment as well so let's start with

the uh the Arkansas case where you know most of the headlines I'm seeing on this are saying that you know the the Arkansas has struck down a ban on gender affirming care for transgender youth what are your thoughts on that yeah it's an interesting case because the judge said the state did not this was a case brought by the ACLU on behalf of some kids and

on behalf of some doctors and they said the state didn't prove that their law um was actually basically they didn't prove that the medical care was harmful they did not provide sufficient evidence that this was that the puberty blockers and hormones being prescribed to kids were harming their health as opposed to being uh helpful and therefore it's part of the doctor's rights to be able to

prescribe that care the parents rights to be able to approve that care and the children's rights to be able to get that care and the reason I think that's interesting is because the science itself is so so difficult on this question that in Europe um you know from the UK Norway Sweden they started with laws that look like ours and they've ended up really restricting that

care without the American political Left Right binary because they have a more concentrated they have socialized medicine for instance in the UK so the Tavistock Clinic gave them a really clear sample study like they were able to say we have X number of people went through this one program and we think it should be restricted we think that you know it was being over prescribed so

U.S laws are out of step with what's happened in Europe but what's interesting about that is you have judges trying to Grapple with the the studies and you have judges trying to Grapple with the science and the science itself is I think really difficult on these cases so uh sorry just to interject because I wanted to read the quote so the the person involved in the

case is a 17 year old transgender boy from Arkansas uh and the plaintiff in the lawsuit and they said quote I'm so grateful the judge heard my experience of how this health care has changed my life for the better and saw the dangerous impact this law could have on my life and that of countless other transgender people uh and the judge said that the law also

violates the constitutional rights of transgender youth uh and their parents and their medical providers so would you say that they got it right or would you say to this guy like nah too bad like let's let's not let's not agree with this case the judge got it right or that the law do you think do you think that uh this 17 year old who was the

plaintiff who was thanking the judge would you say to them like I disagree with the outcome of the case with the outcome so the law itself I think this is one of the problems is that on the right there are really imperfect laws that Target I think legitimate problems this is a big DeSantis issue like the stop woke act it's a very imperfect bill um I'm

worried more about the problem itself than the issues too then the attempts to address the problem and so that doesn't mean I think this law is perfect um I do not think a minor should be able to consent to uh irreversible any medicine that we don't know whether or not it has irreversible irreversible damage in the long term so puberty blockers hormone therapy um I think

that should wait until an adult can make the decision a child shouldn't be able to make that decision the parent shouldn't be able to make that decision on behalf of the child because there's the issue of developing bodies I think 17 man that's kind of I know it is old it's yeah we're not talking about eight-year-old or anything one thing that I always bring up here

is puberty blockers and hormones oftentimes get lumped together and I think it's important to note puberty blockers have actually been used for a long time time for example for girls who have early onset of puberty yes and there was never the same level of concern about you know what this could mean for these girls for the rest of their lives I certainly think there is some

evidence that there can be consequences right that there can be Health adverse effects from puberty blockers those are also though hormones can be uh irreversible in some ways like some of the changes that you especially at a young age that you go through you can't you can't take back right right puberty blocker is a little bit different you stop taking the puberty blockers you go through

puberty right so it is I just want to make that distinction there do you think that laws in these types of restrictions are even the right way to go about this because part of what we've seen is you know the politics of this is a disgusting mess right yeah there's you know on the on the right there's certainly in what this judge speaks to there's certainly

no attempt to actually get at the truth of what the medicine is and what the trade-offs are and what this looks like I just saw another judge actually struck down Florida's prohibition on Medicaid coverage for gender affirming care there's spillover effects that go beyond just care for Trans children so is are like politicians the right people to be deciding these things or shouldn't it be more

left to doctors families and that sort you know the medical professionals and the experts who are actually on the front lines of understanding this care and balancing what I think everyone has to acknowledge is a complicated and nuanced situation that doesn't lend itself easily to a one-size-fits-all approach I think the very legitimate and anguishing condition of gender dysphoria was being better treated by physicians parents um

before it got hyper politicized I absolutely think that's the ideal situation the hormone point is a really interesting one of the puberty backer point is a really interesting one puberty blockers in particular because um they have been used for a while a while is interesting though because to me I look at that I'm like okay so several decades this is how long we've used this this

treatment right and that's a lot of time in the scope of human history it's a fairly short experiment and I actually find that very interesting I think that's a problem with the food we eat I think it's a problem with the medications we take in general that so much of it has been developed over the last several decades to the point point where we don't really

know fully how that stuff has affected our bodies especially in different quantities over periods of time so for instance with hormones and puberty blockers you basically create a permanent patient you really have to keep taking that stuff and I've talked to the parents totally apolitical people and some people Center left and kids themselves who have started on this path ended up not really liking it in

fact being like really upset about it and people have different experiences like the kid in this lawsuit that we're talking about um so I get it people have different experiences with it but I also think we don't we just really don't totally know long term what this does to the human body when you have to keep taking it month after month after month and that's what

really concerns me and I've seen parents go down the road recognize that and and people who for instance are totally apolitical I've talked to them myself someone from my hometown who got caught up in one of these National lawsuits and there have been they have come down not on the side of the left but on the side of the people who have been trying to push

back and that's not just people on the left as people sort of on the right the center um the tarfs of course you know it's it's a big community and uh it's just but to your point Crystal even having to have those conversations even having to hear that from the 17 year old in the lawsuit it just sucks that we're talking about this in the sort

of like Democrat versus Republican political uh Thunderdome so a couple things first of all I would say the detransition rate is super low in the U.S which leads me to believe that the overwhelming majority of people they start going down this path they're not doing it willy-nilly they ultimately are like this is definitely the right thing for me is that adults or kids uh overall the

detransition rate I've seen is very very low I mean it's over what 95 percent of people who end up if they start going down the path they continue going down the path I'd also say the point that like this is something you have to take forever I don't find that particularly persuasive because like insulin is as well so you know it that's not it's not like

that by itself make makes me go oh this is bad we must reevaluate it the other thing is on this law the Arkansas law also barred State funds and insurance coverage for gender affirming care and allowed private insurers to refuse to cover such care for people of any age yeah so there's another thing that we've seen is like a spillover where it doesn't just impact the

kids it gets you know it impacts older people as well and and that happened in Florida as well too by the way they said nurse practitioners can't you know give out the treatment and like 80 percent of trans people in Florida get it from nurse practitioners so a lot of them are struggling to get the care they need and then the final thing and I'll let

you respond is um so the law in Arkansas was vetoed by Governor ASA Hutchinson a Republican and he cited the potentially dangerous consequences for Trans youth in the state and called it a vast government overreach and a product of the culture war in America but his veto was overturned by state lawmakers but you know how do you respond to that I feel like that's uh pretty

damn the evidence that this they were taking a moderate approach and then this was an overreach I would I would say ASA Hutchinson is a great example of a republican who is like bought and paid for by the corporate establishment and is not to be trusted on positions when it comes to economics or culture Tucker Carlson did a pretty persuasively um bad interview with Asa Hutchinson

when he vetoed that bill was he bought off by big trans so for instance the Human Rights Campaign their health health care equality index is bankrolled by Pfizer it's it's actually like a really I think severe conflict of interest that you have Pfizer bankrolling hrc's Healthcare equality index which takes into account things like gender affirming care so puberty blockers hormones that is actually a very real

concern of mine and I think it it is coloring the way that corporations are responding to advocacy groups dark money groups places like HRC those are I find that to be a very real problem I don't think the right is necessarily consistent um when they say oh this is all being bankrolled by farm and dirt was like the right has supported things for years that are

being bankrolled by Pharma and dark money so I don't think it's a consistent position but from the perspective of somebody who who is I would say personally consistent on the question of dark money and and on those issues I do find that to be a real concern but you don't think he thinks it's a vast government overreach you think I think he does fought for this

position no no I think he does think it's a vast government overage because I think he has a concept of uh this sort of like old Republican concept of what constitutes vast Republic vast government overreach which is basically anything that creates guardrails in society so if if Pharma says we have this new treatment that can be used in a way that's going to create all kinds

of new patients let's put the trans issue aside let's say it's something else um I think it's a responsible policy if that drug is harmful to say no and I think ASA Hutchinson trusts industry more than he trusts the sort of Republican system I hear you but Trump did right to try which is the opposite of that it's like try whatever the hell you want to

try if you're about to die so he's sort of like guard rails off type thing I think that his position on this and then I'll let you in Crystal but I think his position on this I think there is an argument from a small government conservative perspective of like hey let's just get the government out of this there is yeah yeah same libertarian argument I I

see some parallels not to totally equate them but with the debate around choice because it's like all right totally this is very complicated every single instance is going to have its own unique Dynamics around it really the people who are in the best position to make these challenging you know morally difficult decisions are the mother the family the doctor in consultation with the doctor and I

feel very much the same about about this issue as well one thing Emily that I'm curious about from your perspective I suspect you have a detailed knowledge of it's like where did this all come from like this is this is the it seems to me in terms of the online right yeah like this is the issue right there's and you're talking about a small percentage of

the population yeah when you get into some of the more Niche concerns like you know women's girls Athletics which none of these people have any other track record of caring about but suddenly this is like you know all consuming to them yeah like we must protect the WNBA at all costs right exactly like have you literally ever what can you name one player like just one

player just name one anyway so where did this new fixation really come from well I think the sex and gender stuff has obviously been interesting to the right for a long time going back to the fixation on like the feminist movement and some of this comes from that actually I remember so my college job was working for Christina Hoff Summers who wrote a book in 1999

she's a dissident feminist Professor um her story is really really interesting she's she's probably more attributed to the right now even though she's like a Bernie curious type person and she was a women's studies professor she was a philosophy Professor who was cross-listed in the women's studies Department ended up working at the American Enterprise Institute because she wrote a book called who stole feminism in 94

that got her blacklisted from the women's studies conferences and all of that fun stuff and so when I was working for Christina for a couple of years in college I was helping her with research on it and it was surprising back 2012 2013 2014 how often this very issue was coming up in the research about what's best for boys in education like what is the concept

like what is masculinity what is femininity and then that's where we started talking about I think as a culture toxic masculinity and once the conversation about toxic masculinity and gamergate started like that snowball starts rolling down the hill um the whole conversation about sex and gender has just exploded with social media the thing for me Camille paulia said this in 2016 I think it was she

said when Obama did the Title IX dear colleague letter from the Department of educations from his education secretary John King that said you have to read gender identity into sex in Title IX that is really she said that's when I knew Hillary Clinton lost the 2016 election that wasn't the same for me but I do think that was the root of so much of this because

it was a blanket declaration from the federal government that changed the way every Public School in every Community was suddenly impacted by this major change and from there I think that was a huge part of like since it started touching so many communities the right was really freaked out by it I I really think that the online right is obsessed with this in a way that

nobody else is like I always see people on the online right talking about this endlessly and then I actually don't see that much on the left and if anybody on the left is talking about it's like a reaction to a new law that's being pushed by the right um but I just wanted to give the guidelines as to how it works right now because look my

default assumption was like I understand when people say they don't you know kids shouldn't be allowed to do X Y or Z and they want to protect the kids and say I understand stand that argument but then when I actually researched it and saw how it functions right now my reaction was like oh this is actually super reasonable the way it already works so apparently puberty

blockers are used if you know they have dysphoria typically this occurs around age 8 to 18 for girls and a year or two later for boys apparently those side effects are reversible so that doesn't strike me as big of a deal as many people make it out to be the guidelines recommend hormones at 16 or older I didn't know that until I started researching this guidelines

say that surgery should generally be reserved for those age 18 and older the world professional association for transgender Health says breast removal surgery is okay for those under 18 who have been on testosterone for at least a year but as we already pointed out hormones start at 16 so in most cases it's you're going to be 17 or older if you even do a Top surgery

well yeah keep the government out of it because now you see all these bills that are trying to uh you know criminalize certain things and it's even spilling over into impacting trans adults why is it not isn't this much to do about nothing given that these are the guidelines and they seem really reasonable no I think that's a helpful point I still think there's not enough

long-term research and I mean like that's part of the problem is people are necessarily kind of guinea pigs of the medical community says yes this is safe and you're willing as an adult to go through and be one of the people who spends a Lifetime on these medications even if it's like insulin we don't know we truly don't know that quantity with that much time how

much this would affect people not just physically but also mental health testosterone hormones are a really powerful component of our mental health and so I think the divide in the conversation here is that I don't think there's enough evidence to say this isn't malpractice you think there is enough evidence to say it isn't malpractice and so that informs my approach to the policies I'm just taking

their word for it right like we know that if they don't take it in cases of people that have severe gender dysphoria that's when they have the suicidal ideation and they're severely depressed and they have the anxiety and I just from personal anecdotal experience I've had people reach out to me doing my show and they explain to me like look I have gender dysphoria I'm trans

as soon as I you know started transitioning and having gender affirming care I felt much better yeah so I look at that and I go God bless right like what am I going to do override I just I've heard the opposite I mean I've heard people who have said that it was but it's a numbers game right there's the the studies on that are pretty mixed

though on suicidal ideation post and pre there's some that does show that and there are also Physicians that have taken a lot of risks to say they're uncomfortable with the treatment why is the de-transition rate so low then I feel like if what you were saying was true would be like 70 transitioning we just don't see that we see like one percent to five percent detransmitted

because I think there's been in the last couple of years there's a lot of evidence to suggest there were transitions both socially and medically that were part of a social contagion and I would expect and people are more than welcome fact checking me on this in 10 years but I would expect that as the research comes out based on conversations that I've had with people based

on medical professionals that I've talked to it's hard to say but I would expect in 10 years we see different we see different stats and studies on that so I think the social contagion thing is very disputed like even if I mean the anti-trans stuff is social contagious that's true even okay even if we say okay there's a social contagion going on and that's why you

see a rise the number of people who are identifying as trans or non-binary or whatever which again highly disputed but let's say that that's the case to me the argument that you're making about you know these treatments haven't been tested over 100 years or whatever you could basically make against every medicine that's on the market and so you know at some point you have to go

like this is the research we have we know that if you don't follow these you know clinically tested procedures that you're going to have these issues and you're going to have health issues and you're going to have depression and suicide ideation all those things so we're taking a calculate calculated risk here to me the problem comes in when you have the government trying to come between

you and your doctor and say well your doctor who's an expert may say that this is the best thing for you and you may agree with that finding but we you know Ron DeSantis or Donald Trump or ASA Hutchinson or whoever it is we actually know better and we are going to ban you from getting a medically approved clinically tested treatment that your doctor recommends well

that seems to have much broader implications to me than just with regards to the issue of um transitioning well this is another interesting point about the online right for me who kind of grew up as a conservative in the Tea Party era although not always sort of died in the world conservative this has been a huge wake-up call about dark money about corporations it comes from

the trans issue really not not just the trans issue but uh genuinely the uh like food medicine the online right is freaking out about health right now and there's like this big remember when Tucker Carlson had the like the balls yeah the ball tanning the ball tanning thing and I'm dramatized forever why did you have to do that to me sorry why did you have to

do that to them okay well anyway as much as I can try to refocus my memory um but like actually the that I think is is a wake up in general I think some of the interest in RFK Jr and in Marianne it comes from that uh because people on the right are don't equate those two no but I think again is a gym so oh

agreed but the the question of like what we've been putting into our bodies for like the past hundred years some of these things like for instance canola oil uh this is like incredibly new thing for humans to be consuming in massive quantities and there's such corporate capture in the regulatory agencies that we have not questioned it yeah like yeah and that's that's and so like when

it is true like we have said we say like let go and let God and like let the doctors say we're the experts on this I think a lot of those decisions have actually and will continue to prove to have been wrong and to a certain extent you have to let them do that but at the same time I think there's a lot of evidence especially

on issues like this one that uh when people have no incentive to speak out because they're going to be called bigoted or a turf or whatever for having questions then you get doctors who are you you can't really trust the opinion in Broad senses Lord knows we have critique a wide-ranging critique of for-profit Health Care corrupt influence Etc cares about they don't but I'm saying that's

what I care about Yeah well yeah no no I mean I'm not casting decisions on you exactly online it's more like what they do but like the idea that an improvement to the current system is like so let's put Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden in charge of your health care and like determine what sort of degree right and Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell like that doesn't

seem like a solution to me and and that's where to get to Kyle's point about like this is not what they really care about all that energy which is in certain ways righteous around concern around our food concerned around our health concern around corruption all of those things like to the idea that there there's any sort of nascent Awakening there on the right it all then

gets channeled into the most superficial critiques of like and the problem is because they had a gay person on the corporate board or because Target did a pride display like that's where the issue is and it's like wait you were you were starting down the path and now it's just been completely diverted to something that look I'm sure Target is annoyed right now by the protests

and boycotts does it hurt them at all if they have to like pull their bride display no they don't care they don't care I mean Bud Light also they've taken a hit from the boycotts ETC do you think that they're real lgbtq allies no they just thought they would like use a trans influencer to make more money so you're not hitting them where it hurts you're

not changing the system you just have this like superficial like let's just throw woke out there and and totally divert any reasonable energy I'm sorry I have to go further because I don't like if their concern was actually like oh yeah or the rights waking up to like concerns about corporate power is part of the inflation reduction act Biden did a 15 corporate minimum tax rate

for all corporations this is at a time they used to pay nothing in taxes or someone pay a negative income tax rate which is literally they're getting like a net subsidy from the taxpayers yeah not a single person on the right was like yes Joe Biden 15 seconds right these people don't care it's not about that are you talking about Republican politicians are you talking about

both nobody's nobody gets yeah put brought jobs back here Trump net outsourced 200 000 jobs not a single person on the right has been like based Biden and standing up corporations well so politicians I'll Crystal well I was just going to say I mean partly that's because none of that is being told to them in conservative meetings but if you pull if you pull Republicans you

will see some uh concern about corporate power you will see a majority of people saying corporations should be taxable agreed right so I would say among regular people who are Republicans there is some nascent interest in urban corporate power and I would say Elites and media manipulate them into like and it's because they had a diversity training I'm with you but it's nominal versus effective it's

one thing to say to upholsterer but then you turn around and vote for like Jim inhofe and it's like okay there's sort of a disconnect here isn't there well and it's like the DNC so like it's like what the DNC does with can candidates it's actually pretty hard for Republicans especially since this stuff has trickled into the kind of conservative bloodstream very slowly I actually agree

there's way too little cover the chip sack was bipartisan and that did bring jobs back although like people like Marco Rubio pulled their votes at the last minute because it did have Bernie did carve outs for Intel and yeah but all that is to say um it's trickling very slowly into the bloodstream the conservative movement is trying to catch up with it but I think a

huge part of the problem is that the right is way too freaking online you see this with the census and Trump campaigns who are just mired in these stupid conflicts and the same thing with the the very online capital V capital O right pundit who are mired in these stupid online conflicts that have absolutely nothing to do with the daily life of the average conservative voter

Republican voter Democrat voter and that's where again people who are sitting around looking at our politics and going what the heck basically then look and say I have nobody speaking for me and I'll vote for Jim inhofe because the the person on the left is uh from my perspective even worse on a host of different issues but it's just I mean it's a disaster hey y'all

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