The World is Waking up to the Power of Crypto

Welcome everyone to POV Crypto, the only podcast that both big corners and a theory and system to. I'm David Hoffman, here with my buddy Christian, Christian, how you doing? Way to start this podcast off. Doing fantastic, man. This is my first POV in my new office, my new studio. The first time I've had a big white room all to myself. Yeah, congratulations on like having a

know if it's going to have the exact same aesthetic as yours, but I'm a fan of what you got going on. This has been a long, long time in the making. Anyways, for the podcast listeners who can't enjoy the visual, if there's a lot of plants behind me. Christian and I have a question for you and all the big winners out there. Are you guys ready

for just NFTs to just dominate the headlines for the next 12 months? I'm zen with it. I don't like to OG NFTs. I'm anticipating the skyrocketing value, but I don't actually give a fuck about them. So like in the crypto world and the DeFi world, in the Ethereum world, mainly we have like these two groups of people that we generally separate by very loose lines. That's

wealth people or status people. In the status people are the NFT people. NFTs are, so those are about status. Where you show off your cool NFTs that you've got purchased. And then there's the wealth people who are about ERC 20s or currencies or assets. So there's these two different camps. I definitely find myself on the whole wealth side of things rather than the whole NFTs and

art doesn't make any sense to me. So explain, wait, before you, before the, but explain the sadist metaphor, like are you saying that they are status like they believe in the state? And no, no, no, no, excuse me. Do I say status? I've been status status. Okay. I think you'll be able to say about status. I've been statused. Yeah. No, it's a status versus wealth kind

of thing. And obviously these lines are blurry, right? Because like if you're going to buy, if you're going to be The individual that bought, you uses their wealth to buy fine art. Like what does that make you? You're a little bit of both. But like, it's the NF, the NFTs side of things are like people who want to show off their status. Yeah, so you call

the wealth people and then the status people. And I just call it ski more fake. Let's not, let's not cut down that rebel hole. And then we can't just buy things out NFTs are about to be like, it has so much surface area for exposure. It's going to pull in so many people. Yeah, no, I agree. It's good for Bitcoin. Okay, when you define everything is

good for Bitcoin, they're like cool. That's not a unique opinion. I mean, I'm not trying to give a unique opinion. I'm just trying to state why I send why I don't care. Like, I mean, I, you know, I think that NFTs are interesting in the same sense. Like on the guidelines of what you described last episode, right? Which is like the empower these people to monetize

access to scoble liquidity pool and these markets. And, you know, right now they're super hyped and it's great marketing. So I think that's what I'm going to do. And it's going to, going to continue to blow up it. Like, if you think about an ICO and then you think about an NFT, an NFT has way more consumer friendly. This around it. The UX around it is

way, way better too. So that way more consumers can kind of, you know, reach it. Like, you're at the mark, you know, kind of mark Cuban. So great example is he was like, wow, when I saw the interfaces around this stuff. That's when I got really excited. So I mean, it's fantastic. All that stuff is great. And I think that's what I'm going to do. I

mean, I don't think it's a great investment. I mean, it's probably going to go up, but I don't know about your cypher punks being a great store value in the long term. They might be a fad. You're, I don't know. Crypto punks. Crypto punks. Yes. Right. I'm, I'm, this is where my ignorance is showing very, very clearly. I'm out of my, my domain of expertise. I

am also skeptical as to the long term value of these things. I think like NFTs and art are inherently like illiquid. And that's kind of why they are so highly valued. Because that like, you don't need 10,000 buyers. You just need one buyer, right? You just need one buyer to put in that very high bid. And then all of a sudden you have like a crazy

high valuation on the NFT. But like, it liquidity works well in bull markets, but in bear markets, it does not work well. Not at all. Like all of a sudden that like 30 E that you paid for this crypto punk turns into three e because there are no buyers, right? Yeah. Big Quantina said this on the big Quantina special. He said that the problem with art

and real estate is that they're both a matter of fashion, right? So some areas of New York used to be the posh areas. And now they're, those are like the boring areas of New York. And now the areas I were disgusting and no one would ever be seen there. Now those are the cool hip areas in New York. And that's forever changing and fashion also changes

a lot. Right. And like, I think we can even extend this back to just all value in general, right? Where, where like value. Is is shared perceptions of humans, right? It's a shared story shared myth. But some myths are fleeting more fleeting than others and more some myths are more lasting than others. And like when, when NFTs are like, you know, not, not a dime it

doesn't, but you can mint a bit. Jillian NFTs, right? Like some of them are going to fall out of fashion. Some of them won't, you know, for some fucking reason this Mona Lisa NFT has held its value for a really long time. But most, most, most, other real world NFTs, AKA art, don't do that. I mean, by definition, there has to be a power curve of

art value storage. Right. Like that's just how earth and nature and humanity works. Like, yeah. 80% of the people are going to want the 20% art that they can have. And, you know, 80% of the value is going to be stored in that art. And there's going to be, you know, you can fractal that down and up. Like that's just, sure. Again, that's nature. Sure. Totally.

Like humans are not going to call less around an equally divided set of value in equal, you know, in, in kind of like, equally spread out parts across art. It's not going to be like that. It's going to be a power distribution. Right. And that power distribution definitely has to come from the fact that like, people can migrate their opinions from opinion to opinion, right? And

so things can go in and out of fashion. So you said something about like all value is effectively subjective. And like, I agree that value is subjective. But I also agree that what is money is not necessarily subjective. I think that that is objective because of its characteristics and the network effects are obvious at the time. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So like, there are

certain money, money media, mediums are technically and objectively better than others. But that doesn't stop the fact that, you know, I mean, I think that's not going to be a good idea. But like Bitcoin isn't worth anything except for the, except for what people will pay for it and what people will pay for it is a subjective exercise. So like, there's both, there's both sides to

this equation, right? Bitcoin is objectively a better money for all the monetary properties. And it makes sense as to why many people perceive Bitcoin to be valuable. But it will always be a perception at the end of the day. Well, isn't that the whole point of like the most liquid good and like something that's extremely liquid is like everyone wants it and everyone kind of has

a price in their, like, I don't know. And right now, like, Bitcoin is not in its long, like if Bitcoin works out, it's not going to remain in this kind of relationship with volatility in the market. You know, if it works out, like, everyone is going to be using this thing to value wealth. So therefore, like, no, like, it doesn't seem like there's going to be

a subjective, like dollars aren't super subjective. I mean, I guess like there's the trade between four ox pairs. No, it's the difference between the value of the paper and the ink and the value of what you can get for that. Because of the symbol, like the dollars assemble and symbols are inherently subjective. But it's also a network of stored value. Right. But it's also just. Like,

all of a sudden, like, we could like, if some fucking reason, like the collective human, high quality, I've mined all collectively decided to not give a fuck about the dollar and instead give a fuck about Bitcoin or vice versa, or asset A to asset B. Then like, that's technically possible. It's completely unfeasable. But like, again, the value, the value is because other people believe it, which

means it stays in the subjective realm. But I'm not prepared to go down this rabbit hole right now. Okay. All right. The other conversation I wanted to bring up is, do we want to pivot from, are we done with NFTs? No, this is a similar NFT conversation. Okay. Let's go. You said that NFTs are good for Bitcoin. And I'm like, sure, because NFTs are crypto surface

area and Bitcoin is a part of crypto. But like, NFT surface area is, is more, much more relevant to Ethereum. Like, it's good for Bitcoin because it's good for Ethereum. And like, it's because it's good for Bitcoin is downstream from the fact that it's good for Bitcoin. Ethereum is good for Ethereum first and foremost. Let's not, let's not muddle those waters. I mean, I think Ethereum

is good for Bitcoin. But, I mean, yeah, obviously, I think Ethereum wallets, they are spreading Ethereum's physical infrastructure network effects. So that is. Sure, they need to acquire ETH and use ETH as money within that ecosystem. Like, those are dominant network effects things. But if you zoom out, like, all of ECUX are effectively similar to on-chain Bitcoin UX. So now all of those people, like, from

a capability, from a learning, from an onboarding perspective, like, they pretty much know how to do a QR code scan. They know to check the little, that, you know, either the first or last digits of the address to make sure it's like authentic. Like, you know, they've kind of gone through that, the onboarding excess. Kind of like how, in the early Bitcoin days, people would onboard

people with dogecoin paper wallets, like, get used to the UX, like, hold your hand. So like, I'm not trying to downplay, like, the love, you know, I'm not trying to downplay what NFTs are doing from bringing kind of the masses or the plebeians to crypto UX. But, I mean, there is absolutely kind of like downstream effects just because they share, you Bitcoin on-chain and Ethereum on-chain

share a lot of similar, you know, similar processes. Well, I just think that Bitcoin's monetary gravity wall is going to suck value through that. Yeah. Okay. So that kind of brings us into the question about, or the topic of PTC pumping forever, which is something I want to talk about. Because, I do believe that BTC will pump forever along the same lines more or less about

how like the S&P generally pumps forever. Like, that's kind of the S&P brand, right? You just put your money in the S&P and then it goes up. And so, Bitcoiners are like Bitcoin pumps forever because Bitcoin can only go, can only become more and more scarce in the face of more and more value existing in the world. But like, that's literally the same way as by

21 million. Yeah. Infinity, that's great. It's a great point. But, the point is, is that other value can still be created and outperform Bitcoin. And like, I understand as Bitcoin is a great measure, the value appreciation of Bitcoin is a great measure of something that you need to beat if you want to quote unquote beat the market. And but I believe in plenty of possibilities of

plenty of things outperforming Bitcoin because many other things underperformed Bitcoin. And so I think Bitcoin is a great benchmark. What does it mean is going to be the dominant asset because there are going to be other assets that outperform Bitcoin. So what's like your timeframe here? Like, what are you talking about? Like, five to 20, 20 years. Like twice as long as crypto has been a

thing. So, I think you, if you ask Bitcoiners that have thought about what hyper Bitcoinization looks like. What they'll tell you is, what are you talking about? What is, it is a new world where objective and subjective value determination can be made a lot more clearly because there's a clear medium for measuring value. And while, you know, there won't be as much investment in things because

there's going to be a lot less misallocation of capital because we have a clear monetary medium. There will be investment in business, right? And so, but there's going to be a separation between store of value and business risk. Right now, the S&P 500 is the reason why you index is to get rid of the, the, the company specific risk. But you're not getting rid of business

risk in general. You're not getting rid of, you know, market overall market risk. Like, there's still cyclicality to the S&P. Same with the housing market, same with all of these things. And I would say that the fact that, there is so much value stored in equities, there's so much value stored in housing beyond like their direct utility for, you know, housing and cash flow, that that

proves that one goal is broken as a store value. But it also shows that there's just a lot of opportunity for a true sound money, like for a true thing to like appropriately calibrate the world. And in a Bitcoin world, like, there will be business investment. And those business events should outperform Bitcoin. If they're not, the business is going to put like, but that's the whole

point is that now we have a good way to measure business investment rather than, you know, like we have to invest in the S&P because dollars are going to shit. And it doesn't matter what the cash flow is of the business. Right. And I think the point I was trying to make is that Bitcoin can quote unquote, pump forever while also Bitcoin not being like the

dominant out performer of the decade. For the next like five decades, as it has been for the last decade, right? Like other assets should outperform Bitcoin. And like, maybe, maybe also the conversation goes to like, well, what about like on the 250 year time horizon? Like what asset is going to outperform Bitcoin then? And then then that's a more interesting scenario. So, my scenario would be

like the only asset that could out can be Bitcoin on like a 250 year time horizon is something that fits in the, in its size. I'm kind of saying realm of being a public permission this blockchain perhaps won't called the theory of so this is why like, Bitcoin's not supposed to be an investment forever. Like the way I'm not interested in NFTs, I'm not interested in

tokens. It's because this is the time horizon where Bitcoin goes from like the bottom part of the, um, of the adoption. S curve up this and then to the top part of the adoption and Roger, the adoption and S curve. It starts with a flatness. And then goes back flat. So when Bitcoin goes back flat, there's going to be tons of shit that outperform Bitcoin all

the time. People aren't going to be speculatively investing in Bitcoin. So at Moons, they're going to be buying it. So that way they can hold their value, not loser value. And then they're going to be using it to measure opportunity costs. That is the sound money dream. So in that world, fuck like probably new aged, you know, futuristic NFTs are going to perform great against Bitcoin.

But you know, I think that there's going to be a lot less speculation on shit NFTs. Maybe I don't know who knows. Well, I was specifically just then talking about Ethereum and comparing ether the asset on the same long term time horizons as BTC. I mean, so okay. So I mean, what exactly are you saying though? Are you saying that? Like Bitcoin number will go up

and then flatline and ether number will go up and just keep going up. Oh no, now I've completed two separate scenarios where I say like yes, like Bitcoin is not like the world's best performing asset for every single year into the future. It is the new benchmark. Right. And within that definition, there will be things that outperform it. My then the second part of the conversation

I say is like, well, Bitcoin perhaps won't be the only benchmark. And perhaps it could be actually the less dominant benchmark. Another public permissionless blockchain currency perhaps Ethereum and ether being that secondary benchmark. And we could have two competing benchmarks. Right. Yeah. Like, there's dominated. Any sort of nominator and Bitcoin. I know you don't. I know you don't see that. Either something else. But I don't

think that there's going to be two benchmarks. It's because there was two benchmarks. It's called silver and gold and no one would not. I was just the other. There. That's not Ethereum is not Bitcoin silver. Like that's not what it is. It's something you're totally right. It's something different. And it's not like a hard money benchmark. But it is a benchmark of a different nature. That

is a valid alternative benchmark. Okay. We'll see. We will see. I mean, maybe as the benchmark in this NFT community. I mean, right. Art art is price and eth like digital art price and eth. Yeah. But eth is price and Bitcoin. So Bitcoin is price and eth. I literally price Bitcoin and eth. So it's been going down. Huh? Yes. In the short term, it's also been

going up. It's all mainly going up. If you really want to put it into the all the way zoom out, verse Bitcoin has been going up. I mean, I could have been dunking on you really hard throughout the entire beginning. of POV crypto because that was going only down for like a year and a half, but I have to give you that because we know a

lot of articles and during that time, yeah. That's because you be a coin out like risk off a guess of which Bitcoin is one outperform. And bear markets. That's, that's just, we, we aren't even at like a complete one for like one cycle revolution in POV crypto history yet. It's true. It's true. Do we keep going? Is this a short show? I. I mean, those are

all my topics. Okay. Well, what's your go on price right now? I tried to look into how to buy options because I want to buy $4,000 ether. I want to buy $4,000 call options in May, but there's no good place to do that. What did you like? Deribit, but I have to KYC and they don't accept US citizens and then also HEGIC, which is a DeFi

protocol, but it only goes four weeks out, not not long enough. I don't know what I don't know what eth is going to be in four weeks. It could be flat, but I know in May, it's going to be at least $4,000. I know this. I have insider information. Yeah. So we're getting together anywhere. We're going to set a parameter in the Ethereum protocol to set

it to $4,000. Yeah. That's what you can do. You can just program money. That's exactly right. Programmable money. Programmed $4,000. All right. Guys, you guys can follow the podcast at POV crypto pod on Twitter. You can follow me at trustless state, both on Twitter and on bankless Christian. You guys can follow me at CK underscore snarks. You can find me at Bitcoin magazine and, yeah, Bitcoin

2021 show. Use promo code Satoshi to get 10% off. David will be. That's in Miami. Yeah, Miami. Two and fourth and fifth. June 4th. Yeah, I'll be there for sure. Yeah, for sure. Of all my time that I spent, spent down in Florida, never actually went to Miami. COVID mixed those plans. Here is your chance. You can have a second. You can't win at Miami and

every Bitcoiner is going to be there. So it's going to be a good time. Lovely. Lovely. Maybe, maybe Brady can finally give me that Ethereum teacher that he promised me. I hope he burns it. Come on. No, he promised he'd give it to me. He promised in person. I asked him to mail it to me and he said, no, I have to give it to him

in person. I'm like, okay. All right. What? Just going to be too big. Yeah. I actually, that's a good point. I can't remember. If we've collaborated on size yet or talked about that. Anyways, cheers everyone. All right. All right. I tend it off. Cool. Good. Are you sure? Yeah. Yeah, I did. It says life for me. So you believe. Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool.iiiight I'm the

greatest I'm the greatest I'm the greatest I'm the greatest I'm the greatest