Miami Bitcoin 2021 Reflections

Welcome everyone to POV Crypto, the only podcast that both Bitcoiners and Ethereum listen to. I'm David Hoffman, here with my buddy, Christian. Christian, how you doing? You're in good, man. I am in the Florida Keys, and yeah, this is the last thing I'm gonna do before really just shut the not the internet. Fuck yeah, you absolutely deserve it, man. How long are you in Florida for?

Oh, Friday. Oh, oh, you got a while. Yeah, vacation mode. Full vacation mode. Twitter, right? You got my phone, telegram, delete off my phone. You know, automatically set up not even crypto is going off, huh? Just just yeah, you guess what I've seen. Let me tell you I was picked up and think it's a little more than you are. Yeah, I know I'm just looking at

my little tigger here right now. Make sure you're on the right microphone. And then also tell me about how, how Bitcoin 20,000 for you. I had to sound that bad. I think about that. No, I just can't tell. Oh, yeah, you are. You are. Okay. Well, it was it was good. I retweeted it. Ready. You're welcome to. How was it? Tell me more other than that

was good. So what I got in on Tuesday conference happened on. Thursday. And it was just a world win. It was a lot of work. I don't know if any of the listeners out there have ever run in event or done in event, but you kind of on your feet the whole time. Yeah. It's a really cool experience. Kind of around three o'clock PM Saturday. That's

when like we realized like, okay. This can no longer like be a disaster like this. At least minimally successful to this point. And that's when like a lot of us are, like, we're going to be able to do something more like this. But I really started to set in. But yeah, overall, it was pretty awesome just watching the whole thing come together. I ended up doing

moderating two panels on Saturday. One of them was stat was on the sacking stats stage, which is the smaller stage. And we did the certain Bitcoin circular economy with a lot of really top notch CEOs in the space. And then immediately as that ended our head of content branding. And then the company that I was doing calls me, he's like, hey, I need an emergency moderator

for a main stage session. And it's with Mike Novigrad and Charles Custary, a Custarillo, who is the CEO of Paxas, the company behind PayPal getting crypto. So I was like, oh, shit. All right. I got prepared for that. But ended up pulling that off as well. So got two sessions in, got to get on the main stage. Nothing blew up. Overall success. Yeah. Well, that is

the absolute, like, perfect skills of a podcaster that you've been practicing for that moment for years. And so glad you took opportunity by the horns. Yeah, totally. I think people really underestimate what doing, you know, hundreds of podcasts actually like, you know, instrumentalizes in you having some sort of interview skills, some sort of ability to get on the main stage. To just audible, fuck it. We're

doing it live. It's a pretty, it's pretty solid. I'm not mad about it. Conversation, leadership. That's for sure. Yeah. I mean, what was the final headcount? More than 13,000 people. Yeah. Big. 13,000 people at the conference. Yeah. Biggest crypto slash Bitcoin conference ever. Yeah. I mean, it also must have been, I mean, I could be pulling this out of my ass, but it feels right. But

like, uh, the biggest event in the world since March, 2020. Biggest event in the world since the super or biggest event in America since the Super Bowl. Right, which was in February, right? Or maybe a very early, February 2021. Yep. It was like right. It was, the Super Bowl was right after you left Utah. Oh, yeah. 13,000 people go to that though. A lot of people

went to that. Yeah. Oh, okay. All right. Well, but it was the second. Second biggest. I can't cancel this. And it moved from LA to Florida too. Fair enough. Yeah. So overall, you know, biggest Bitcoin conference ever. Bitcoiners are on the front lines of freedom. As, you know, like, I don't think it's a surprise that Bitcoiners were the first ones to, uh, you know, say, fuck

it. We're getting together. And I really think like the pinnacle of the conference, has to be Jack Moller's announcement at the end of the conference, uh, where he announced that he had been working with the president of El Salvador and that Bitcoin was going to be legal tender and El Salvador. So, I mean, it's kind of hilarious to see price dip on that news. But Donald

Trump even had to respond to that today, getting on Fox business saying that Bitcoin's a positive scheme. So pretty, pretty fucking huge. I'm here. I'm here to think boomers are just going to be the last to go. Yeah. I mean, I, I like to say, let's elaborate on like, can you just elaborate on why that's like as big of a news as Bitcoiners think that it

is. Bitcoin's legal tender in the country. Yeah. That's just like the next thing, you know, how long has it been since sailor announced that Bitcoin was going to be a treasure. Yeah. I, I, I, I, I, I guess it fits exactly into the Bitcoin or narrative that you got the big corners of enchanting since like the beginning of time. But why, why don't you think it

was reflected in the market? I mean, I think the price dip for about a month after sailor announced that he was that Micro strategy was, was acquiring Bitcoin. You know, we, we're still in a relief cycle of, you know, I guess a, a small blow off top. At 66 K and then a lot of froth in the altcoin space. Yeah. This seems normal. Seems like the

market is going to like slowly react to this news. There's going to be a lot of fallout. But it was pretty insane to see the conference just covered on every nature news outlet. And obviously this news and this announcement being like national news. Right. Yeah. There was like just a fuck ton of peripheral stuff, which, which speaks to the magnitude of the actual like centerpiece. Which

is Bitcoin 2021. Like Bitcoin 2021 was so big that like all of the crypto people went anyways, even though it wasn't crypto 2021. It was just Bitcoin 2021. Yeah. What's your experience like? So I only went to the, went to the actual conference Friday morning. And my experience was that it was definitely oversubscribed. It was a saturated conference. And so like the, the main stage, like,

if you wanted to get into the main stage, you'd have to wait in line. And you, you weren't necessarily like able to get into the main stage. You could, you could watch it from elsewhere. But it was, I mean, it was super attended. And so, I mean, congrats to that. The Bitcoin art. I was speaking to you all find about this. The Bitcoin art was top

tier. I think that was my favorite thing about the conference. Just was the sophistication and depth of Bitcoin art, which I think is art is a very telling thing. And so like when you have sophisticated art, you have like a sophisticated art. You're sophisticated culture, community, it's going to be. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I definitely, I definitely wanted to meet more big corners there. But I also

wanted to go off and meet all my Ethereum people. So I'm kind of bummed that I didn't really, I saw Rob crypto Bobby Rob Hound in walking in. I wanted to talk to him a little bit more, but I lost track of him really quickly. I never got a chance to meet Nick Carter. Didn't, it didn't get a chance to meet the world. I was a

when they texted me about their party, it was Cameron Cameron texted me is like, Hey, David is Cameron Winkleboss. Tyler's the other number. As if it would have been anyone else. Oh, man. Yeah, fun times. Yeah, but mostly my fun times was like the evenings like 5 p.m. onwards. Partied with a mean salamone. That was cool. Luke at Luke and Lucas from the Banquist squad. Yeah,

I mean, it was one of those things there was too much to do into a little time. So like time management was really like a really interesting thing. And it also very much felt like a college, a college like very busy active Friday night or like a college like trip to like Vegas or something where like everyone is in their own little pods. And everyone's trying

to figure out like, All right, where's where's everyone going? Like who's where's the party? Where's the party at bro? Where's the party at? And like people are trying to get into parties and people getting denied from parties. Very, very the whole party scene that very much felt like college vibes. Yeah, and I mean the conference itself very much had like music festival vibes. It was not

a conference. It was a goddamn festival. It was a festival of Bitcoin and tourism. Yeah, I mean, it definitely was. And I think Antel Linder who actually went to the conference, he called me after. And he was like, this is the first time I like can confirm in my gut that Bitcoin has gone mainstream. And like the Bitcoin culture has or subculture has kind of gone

to like a critical mass. But also like the crypto culture and the crypto stuff. And the crypto culture has gone to a critical mass. Like how many people do you think were Miami just to celebrate Bitcoin and crypto? I think there were equal to, if not decently more people who weren't going to the conference that were there in Miami because of the conference. Like I would

put I would put myself in that mix. Yeah, I would say like so let's say there's 13,000 people at the conference. There's probably like 25 to 30,000 people. Right. Crypto, which is absolutely insane. Like I was meeting like non crypto people who were somehow were intermingled with crypto people. Like and it was one of those things I would ask them the background. It's like, oh, I'm

working fintech. I work in a bank, I'm an investment banker. And I'm like, all right, well, how are you here with all the crypto people? And I mean, I was kind of drunk. So I can't really remember the answers. But like the answers were non intuitive. They're not like, no, I had a friend or a connection. It's like, no, we just met people in Miami that

were associated somehow were involved with all the other crypto people. Yeah, I bumped into a decent amount of that. I was running the store at the conference on Friday, which sucked. Thank God, all the interns who worked their ass off both days. But that was a brutal, brutal task. And I can't tell you how many people I came up to me and was like, what's the

best hardware wallet? And it's like for anyone who knows anything about hardware wall, it's like, that's not a super easy answer. It's kind of a personalized thing. I guess a lot of the etharians would say it's ledger. You know, ledger probably has the best support for for Ethereum stuff. But for Bitcoin, it's definitely a lot more nuanced. There's like four or five, like pretty solid wall.

It's out there. So yeah, it was just like, it kind of gives you a taste of like, you know, how people were there, spent money to be there, a decent amount of money to be there. But yet, we're only very loosely or early into like the crypto rabbit hole. Right. Um, like COVID did two things in addition to all the other bajillion things that it did,

including in and out of crypto. COVID did two, did two things put all of the crypto people who were used to having a bajillion conferences every single month on pause and told them you got to stay home. And then it also made crypto assets like fucking moon, right. And so by the time that like it's time to have events like now everyone is rich and everyone

has this pent up demand to like socialize with other crypto people. And so those are the leaderships, right. That that's why Bitcoin 2021 was a conference for 13,000 people, not 1300 people. And there are so many normies coming in the in the wake of all these fun crypto people ship hosting and having a good time that they want that they want to be about that life

too. So they'll pay a thousand dollars to try and like tap into the freedom and the energy of Bitcoin 2021. Yeah. No, definitely. And it was like the OGs paid, you know, 300 bucks to nothing because they knew someone. And then like the, let's just say the newbies who are just scratching the surface, buying it very late, pledge tax, pledge tax. Yeah. Yeah. But seriously, seriously,

just how it is. Um, what do you think we go from here? Like I, I know for a fact that many other big events are watching this, right. Like we were the number three event, event break in the first half of Q one or a first half of of 2021. Again, not that much. You know, it's an achievement. But it's also like that's how few events

were actually happening. And one, one of the key distinctions that we made versus other events is like other events were trying to be like hyper compliant. So that way everyone feels comfortable. And we're like, Hey, we're going to have an in person event. If you don't feel comfortable with that, or you like aren't healthy, like don't come. Like come at your own risk. Right. I mean,

I didn't, it weren't even think about, kind of it at all. And, and you, you kind of broke up right there. Uh, I didn't even, I didn't think about COVID at all while I was down there. I'm, I'm, I, fortunately, I'm literally two weeks and two days out of being getting my second shot. And so technically, I'm vaccinated. And I'm, and I was like, cool, I'm

vaccinated. Fuck, fuck COVID. Like I'll put on a mask if you ask me to, but other, what, what otherwise, fuck COVID. Like, and that's just kind of what the culture was like it very much felt like COVID was not a thing, except for ubers and lubers and lips. We had to wear a mask. And even then like the live drivers, they weren't wearing masks either. Um,

I mean, I'm sure that was one of the strategic choices about Florida versus San Francisco. But still very much felt like COVID. When we realized in January that Florida was open and I was living in California and people were, we're wearing N95 masks on hikes, you know, they came pretty freaking obvious that we should move, we should move the conference to Florida if we wanted to

actually have an in-person event. Um, and yeah, like it was as if COVID did not exist. Um, my wife told me that, hey, it feels like COVID doesn't exist. It feels like we're pretending that COVID doesn't exist. But I think for a lot of people, it's also waking them up. Like we'll see what the actual fallout, right? Fallout is, right? But I mean, even everything seemed

normal. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I guess I shouldn't speak too soon. Cause like, you know, incubation times or whatever. But like, we'll cross that bridge. I'm not, I'm not celebrating too quickly here. I was, I was also talking to your wife at some point in time. And she was like, yeah, I'm really excited for the Bitcoin conference. I'm just kind of worried about like the potential like

PR issues. If like Bitcoin 2021 turns into like a super sprudder event that like delays, like the whole opening up thing by like a month or so. But again, we will cross that bridge if we come to it. I'm, I, my money is basically on, definitely on the, it's not going to show up on the radar anywhere. And I mean, if a Bitcoin event doesn't show

up on the radar, then, then yeah, I think the single lot he had totally, totally. I spent, I don't remember. I want to say that. Um, uh, uh, well, there's just fucking partying in clubs and like, I play, I was playing Goucho ball. Uh, and so like, uh, mixed drinks, like, what a bunch of, like, uh, food, uh, and so like, Gouching, Goucho ball is not

COVID friendly, whatsoever, especially the strangers. Yeah. Yeah, it was also, it was outside, though. So now I'm kidding. Um, uh, okay. So here's, you want to hear my hot take. Uh, Bitcoin 2021 and Bitcoin as a community culture at large, and especially at Bitcoin conferences. They elevate the loudest people to the stages and the loudest people tend to be the most extreme and so the most

extreme maximally is get the most airtime because the Bitcoin community and Bitcoin culture gives the most extreme Bitcoiners the most airtime. And so it's the most radical Bitcoiners that get the most airtime. And as a PR and like representation, uh, aspect of Bitcoin, it's absolutely terrible. It's, it sets the industry back like years, not years, but like, it sets the industry back. Like, you know who

I'm talking about. You know, I'm talking about. So who would you talk about? Max Kaiser. Oh. Okay. Well, if that's the, the, the specific criticism you're making, I don't think it's that insane. I don't know if it sets the industry back because I think a lot of really important people have credited Max Kaiser as being important for orange filling them. So even though he may not

appeal to you, I don't know who knows. Like, I don't think that that's entirely on the internet. I'm not saying that's unfair as what I'm saying. But you know, it's hilarious. Is that a vast majority of Bitcoin plebs complain to us at the main stage, had way too many suits and shit corners and not enough real Bitcoiners. Yeah. But how many, how many real Bitcoiners are

there? A lot. Yeah. I'm saying. Yeah. But when they say real Bitcoin, and we gave them sage time. Yeah. I'm just in like, who, who's to say what a real Bitcoiner is? Well, there's a lot of people on the internet who, who think that they know. But they, but doesn't, just, that's not one homogeneous group either, because they could all have conflicting ideas as to who

a real Bitcoiner is. Exactly. Which is why we're in this mess in the first place. Right. Like, no one gets to be appeased. But like, it's impossible to appease everyone for sure. But like, I would, I would, I would tend to like agree with them kind of like, you know, that I am definitely much more open minded than, you know, the average toxic club. But at

the same time, like, I would also, you know, I would agree and disagree. Right. I think that there's a lot of people on there that I consider Bitcoiners that maybe people wouldn't or that I would consider not shit corners. People can consider shit corners. And then there's people on there who are like, yeah, like fuck Floyd Mayweather. Like fucking dumb money may weather. Like that guy's

a piece of shit. Fuck Floyd Mayweather. But can't also. Can I tell you guys a story about Floyd Mayweather? Please. So he shows up to the conference, wearing a fucking Ethereum t-shirt. No, it was it was a fucking Ethereum like trying to ride off the co-tails of Ethereum. Is it like a scam t-shirt? I'm pretty sure it was a fake Ethereum thing. Oh, either. Right. So

he shows up wearing a scam t-shirt. Yeah. In the Ethereum scam coin t-shirt, he shows up wearing that. Branding and green looks at him. And he's like, you have to take off your shirt or else you can't go on stage. And for it's like, Brandon, Brandon, Brandon Green told Flade of Floyd Mayweather. He has a change of shirt. Yeah. He's like, no, you can't get on

stage unless you change your shirt and Floyd Mayweather said, fuck you. And then he was like, I'm sorry. Like, you can't get on stage unless you change your shirt. And then that's awesome. And then we got, we got, have a bunch of Bitcoin magazine t-shirts. He's like, I don't want to wear that shit. And then he looks at one of his guys in his posse. He

has his biggest posse. He's like, give me your shirt. So he takes his like, friend shirt. And then he went in the friend shirt. She's some random design. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. But then he gets off stage and he just got Floyd Mayweather to change his fucking shirt. That's awesome. I mean, I hate that because of what it is. But the fact that Brandon Green told

Flade Mayweather to get the change, that's so fucking awesome. I both hate it and it's awesome. So if you, if you like that, you should go follow Brand BTC, my boy. He was responsible for like a lot of the content of the conference. I think he did a great job in general. I was the cleanest part of the conference by far. I thought it was awesome.

There's a cool place to hang out. And then big vibes, big vibes. And Bitcoin, Bitcoin art is deep. Bitcoin is deep. And we've talked about this Bitcoin and crypto. You have to be a polymath to like really get it. You have to like kind of have core competencies in a lot of areas. And you can tell that the artists behind Bitcoin, those, those Bitcoin art pieces

were like, thinking on another level. They're kind of like polymaths. Totally. The big lines that I really like from Jordan Peterson is that like history is first written by the artists. And it's not written down in words or text. It's like it's depicted in art form without words. Like you sometimes something you just can't describe. You can only like illustrate via art. And so like history

progresses with the artist leading the way. And I'm definitely saying that with like this, I saw that that with a Bitcoin art for sure. So did you see the glad are the mirror full node. It's not my turn. That's not my turn. And make sure that ... It's completely an awesome thing. It's either 7 of 10 or 7 of 21, but they all have a number.

Michael Saylor owns one. They've been bought. So I should bid up at different prices. Most of them are made out of wood. Half a million dollars. Should've gone for more. When I was walking through the art gallery, I kept on thinking, it's like, God damn it, these everything here should be NFTs. I mean, a bunch of them were NFTs. Some of them are on liquid. There's

like a couple of NFTs on liquid now. Yeah. Oh, that's hilarious. That's too funny. We're again heat for the NFT presence at the conference. Naturally. It's weird. The thing with NFTs is one, I feel like NFTs are very good for mass adoption. I personally think shitcoins are good for mass adoption. I think shitcoins are going mainstream. I put out a tweet that got a lot of

action, but I was like, the coin maximalists are under delusion that the normies are going to wiseen up to shitcoins. When in reality, the normies have just gotten used to shitcoins. Shitcoins have gotten normalized. The stock market has turned into a shitcoin market. Yeah, shitcoins. This point in fiat reality, shitcoins are exactly what the market wants. I'm happy to gamble on doge versus YFI versus, rather

than Apple or Tesla. Doge versus DeFi tokens, versus whatever, sounds like a way more fun to me. When you're living in clown world, fundamental still matter anymore, like then fun is more fun. Okay, so what's your take on doge? Doge is a store value. So Caitlin Long, she was getting interviewed by someone on CNBC. CNBC. Yeah. Have I told you this? Have I started off the

sentence before with you? No. Okay. So she was being asked by the host of CNBC. Like Caitlin, can you please tell us the difference between Bitcoin, Ethereum and dogecoin? And Caitlin, Caitlin was like, yeah, sure. Bitcoin wants to be a new base money. You know, it wants to be a new store of value, a new currency to denominate in. And then because Caitlin's kind of like

a kind of a Bitcoiner, Caitlin's a Bitcoiner. Then she like started to like, then she started to define Ethereum and like in her very, very PR, politically correct way, like dead at Ethereum, but only if you know, if not only if you're in the crypto world. Right. So then she turns to Ethereum and goes, Ethereum is trying to be something completely different. Right. And applying that,

it's not trying to be a base money, even though ethos ultra sound money. And she goes, you know, Ethereum trying to be a smart contract layer, you know, like, you know, like world computer blah, blah, blah. And then she goes and dogecoin. It's actually not all that. That different from Bitcoin. I swear to God, she said that. I was like, do you realize what you just

said? You just said Bitcoin and dogecoin are the same thing or roughly not that not that dissimilar. And the point I'm getting to is that Bitcoin is a meme as money is a meme. Dogecoin is a meme. And there is so much engagement farming with dogecoin that it's actually a part of the fundamental analysis for dogecoin. Right. TikTok TikTok entertainers, TikTok dancers. TikTok dancers are making

dances about doge. Taco Bell is giving away free crunch reps to premiums if you pay in doge or something. Like, so PR companies are are are farming the dogecoin engagement farm for their own benefit. And it's working. And it's pumping dogecoin. And it's, dogecoin is the store of value. It's a meme. It's a it's a great meme. It's a it's a new store of value. Okay.

Well, I mean, I think so there's a really good podcast. So, on Castle Island with Alex Thorn and he talks about dogecoin. Did you listen to that one? Yeah. I mean, there's definitely some key things that are different between doge and Bitcoin. One of them is like the actual network itself. The Bitcoin network is like a finely tuned machine that propagates blocks like extremely efficiently. And,

you know, clears the mempool very inexpensively. Whereas like doge is like a really old. Shouldy car that has them in oiled in a while. In terms of doge as a meme doge as a mind virus. I completely agree with everything that you've said. And I mean, I. Like I have to say, like I'm definitely accumulating some doge now. I wish I had a go to position

for sure. Well, I like I had a small doge position. And I sold half of it for a sense, which was obviously a mistake. Right. I mean, you made a bunch of yeah. So. You were buying it below. Yeah. Right. But I think when I'm now in keeping it in 30 cents. So I have I have five GME shares. And when I finally sell those things

for the unit price of infinity, because apparently that's what I can get for them. I will be selling my GME shares for dogecoin. That's hilarious. Just keep it in the memes. Keep it in the memes. Yeah. I mean, whatever. But like so there's I want to talk about. I think that I think that they're going to get really wrong. Is they like say like, Oh, Bitcoin,

just a meme coin. Bitcoiners are neanderthals. And like, I think that's completely wrong. That's completely off. And though I think the power record. I have never heard a big coin has been called the ender thoughts before. I've never. Bitcoiners are the leadites of crypto. Bitcoiners are the boomers of crypto. All this stuff. But then like you look at the art. Art's fucking deep is all like

you look at the Bitcoin culture. Bitcoin culture's deep is all big ones deep is all big one rabbit holes. Deep is hell. Like I don't know. I feel like there's a lot more to it. That doesn't make number go up. That doesn't make number go up. I think that I think that that is signaling that there's something extremely real happening here. That is a lot more

than what necessarily appears on the surface, which is like slow block times and not a lot of like fancy features. I agree with you. And here's what I was saying this all weekend. And I've been saying this for years now is that Bitcoin, the idea is bigger. Then Bitcoin, the crypto network, the idea of Bitcoin is massive. The actual magnitude of the crypto network is not

as big as Bitcoin, the idea. Bitcoiners have really big ideas. But that doesn't. And then they and then they say it's about that's what Bitcoin is. But it's not actually it's what they are doing is they are actually talking about crypto, not Bitcoin. So this is where I disagree is like I kind of see what you're saying. But at the same time, I think that you

just like fundamentally disrespect the legitimate computer network that is the Bitcoin network. Like this thing is a absolute beast. This thing has a most. I mean, again, I just said you fundamentally disrespect it. Like that's your base position, which is fundamentally incorrect. Well, so it is an absolute beast. Like there are there are hundreds of thousands of nodes. There are hundreds of thousands of users. It's

the wrong. It's like 150,000 or 150,000 terror hash. You're judging. You're judging. But Bitcoin. How much of Bitcoin it is. One of the big things that Bitcoin has said back in like 2016, 17 and 18 is that if it's useful, it'll be built on Bitcoin. That is actually coming true on Ethereum, where if it is useful, it goes in the Ethereum app layer. And so that's

one of these crazy big ideas that is not being found on Bitcoin. And it is. And instead being found on Ethereum or in other app layers like Cosmos or whatever, right? There are there are. And so it doesn't matter that OK, great. Bitcoin has tear to exe would a bajilia hashes. Great. It had it produces blocks super efficiently. Great. It has users. It's still just a

proof of works scripting language blockchain. That does one thing and one thing only which is shuffle. Bitcoin's around. And I think that that is exactly what it needs to be. And it's the sound money. Yes. That is. It doesn't need to be anything else in that. Bitcoin is enough. Yes. Bitcoin is enough. It is not what crypto is. It is just Bitcoin. That's fine. But that's

actually a lot more than what crypto even needs to be. I know crypto crypto can be crypto. Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Bitcoin's the sound money app. So and the Bitcoin network in terms of like what it is for the earth. It is bringing the earth's energy online. So. Nothing else is doing that. It's the only player in town. And it's extremely, extremely lucrative. And. Kathy would

end up. Bitcoin magazine. Interviewed with her was talking about a consumer energy producer. So an energy producer that is can. As producing energy for end users. 35% of the of the money that they fundraise was going towards Bitcoin mining. Guess what Bitcoin mining is useful for bounding. They're they're they're grid for balancing their production. Only in so far that BTC has value. Right. So like. Yeah.

But it's so those things compound on each other. I don't know. It's extremely liquid value network. And then therefore. And then therefore it's worth it to mine it. And therefore it's useful. And so if you if you if your base case is bear that Bitcoin is going to have value. Then it's like. You're going to get wrecked. Like any. Even if Bitcoin lose that lose loses

some value. And it loses hash rate on the network. There's this thing called the difficulty adjustment. Right. And so this is why when we started off the podcast and like El Salvador announces that Bitcoin legal legal tender. And I'm just like. Me. It's one of those things like like great El Salvador can make Bitcoin legal tender. But it can't make it's the people of El Salvador

want Bitcoin. Right. Bitcoin has to want make people want Bitcoin under its own merits. And Bitcoiners love to say that everyone ultimately is going to want sound money because that's what sound money is. We will see. We will see. But right now Bitcoin the US D chart on Bitcoin not looking so hot. And like this industry moves real fast. And so like there is there has

a big Bitcoin has a limited window a closing window to make every single person in the world want it. Because as we know Bitcoin is secured by number go up. I mean all of these networks are secured by the fundamental value their game theory by number go up. All it's it's a combination of many things. And I think Bitcoin's situation is extremely sound. All of it's

fundamentals are extremely sound. And the price is healthy. Like we're at the 200 day moving average hovering around it. Like that's pretty much support. Like I think you accumulate here again referencing the interview with Kathy. You know, but institutions don't want to don't like to top take. With that being said, like institutions constantly bucketing Ethereum and with Bitcoin. SEC bucketing Ethereum and with Bitcoin. So there's

no reason to say that Ethereum is not also legitimate asset. I have a little ticker here at the top of my thing that is Bitcoin Ethereum and doge. There's a three crypto currencies. I actually even take seriously. So pretty much ignore every thing else pretty much ignore everything else. I think that there is. Yeah, no, I mean like I always respected doge to some degree. Just

because doge also has a macula. It has an immaculate conception as well. Like the fact that Jesse Palmer is resentful towards doge and apparently has sold it all of his doge is definitely a macular conception. But what doge doesn't have going for it. It is behind Bitcoin has worse monetary policy and the actual physical network that's on the internet is significantly worse. Like the Bitcoin physical

network is the best in class. And I mean, there's no box. They're being orphaned on the Bitcoin network. Like this thing like if one block gets orphaned people are like, oh my god, it was a reorg. Like that's fun. You know, like that's one orphan block. Like that's how fucking efficient is. It's a freaking beast. Yeah, I just don't see the connection between that, which you

may you can talk about how awesomely efficient and like lubricated the Bitcoin network is between that and people actually buying the thing. Like there is a disconnect there. Like you're going to have to use other reasons to make other reason for other people to buy it because 21 million is going to constantly being reinforced as a meme as knowledge as a reality that's enforced by the

physical network. And I think that's the most important thing to do. And 21 infinity divided by 21 million. Again, again, so you're saying like this, like if your base case is Bitcoin's fundamentals are wrong. Bitcoin's game theory is broken and that 21 million is not enforceable whatsoever, which I think is a lot of Ethereum's base case. Which, which, which, which again is why the arenes are

doing all the things that they're doing, right. It's like literally the architecture of E2 is based on the base case that. Game theory is broken and that it's fundamentals are wrong and the 21 million is not possible. It's not based on that. It is that I mean, that's what I've see. That's like it. So based on that base case. Then yeah, that's your opinion. But I

think that that base case is completely off. And you have to have a base case that is. If you look at the fundamentals, the base case should be that Bitcoin is sound in terms of its security that 21 million is something that's achievable. The proof of work is a good thing and proof of work is useful. I think I think the possible version of the future

that Bitcoiners always are discounting or just refuse to think about is that Bitcoin has modest modest success somewhere between the price of 60 and $300,000. And it's in a top 10 crypto assets for the rest of time. That's a perfectly plausible version of events. And you know what the Bitcoin Ultra sound money meme did for the world. And the scarcity and permissionlessness and you know, a

net physical network and standard by math showed the world that that was possible and invalidated the whole entire industry of crypto. But not Bitcoin and necessarily as the number one right it shows the world that all those things that you just said are really cool and possible and viable. But they don't have to be instantiate and Bitcoin and Bitcoin alone. And so Bitcoin has modest modest

success. It stays in the top 10 crypto assets for the rest of time. But it's not the leader. And it's not it's not like manifest destiny to pump forever until the end of time. And it just hovers. 100K 200K maybe 300K call good. We'll see. Like I mean, isn't that like this whole game? Like and it is about allocating your chips correctly. I think that the

best thing that Ethereum has going for is that it is the home of the cantalant effect in crypto right now and you live in the world. So so eat really fits in well with fiat clown world, which kind of goes with my thesis that is skew morphec to fiat clown world. But I think that that's why I think it's miss why Bitcoin is so important because

Bitcoin is actually what it's destroying clown world. Like Bitcoin is like. But that's the thing is turning the world back into sanity. The Ethereum app layer is allowed to have issuance or scarcity. It'll have whatever the market wants it to. Like does the market want perfect scarcity scarcity? Then the tokens on the theory and will reflect what the market wants. Does the market want seniorage and

like alpha and investment games because the world really likes investment games like that's product market fit yet. Ethereum monetary policy is something much closer to Bitcoin's than any sort of fiat currency. What's up Hunter? Yeah, just it's so it's it's kind of funny. It's like imitation is a greatest form of flattery. Bitcoin's monetary policy is like this and nothing's like. And then the already. Yeah, again,

again, according to your model, according to your model, not reality. Again, in reality, Bitcoin's stair step. Okay. And you know, as as that reality continues to cement itself, the meme and the knowledge and the ability for that information is spread across humanity is going to get stronger. I believe that too. All right. I think it was a good spot to end it. I want to go

bed like an hour ago. So at least we got this one. We're still three hours ahead. All right, brother. Well, congratulations on throwing the biggest crypto event of all time. Shaka. Shaka. All right. See you on the other end. Thanks everyone for listening to P.O. Crypto, you can follow me at Trustless State, both on Twitter and on bankless Christian. Yep. At C. Canters, course, starts and

check out Bitcoin magazine, of course. And Bitcoin 2022, we already got tickets on sale. Take it on. You can buy it for $300. We're also dropping a on chain analysis and market fundamentals news that are called the deep dive. So check that out as well. Take peace. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thinst it.