Debating DeFi Season and the Center of Crypto

Welcome everyone to a POV crypto the only podcast that both bit corners and Ethereum is listened to. I'm David Hoffman here with my buddy Christian Christian how you doing? Doing good man. This is episode two of 2021 and I feel like this should be season two of POV crypto because it's just gonna be a little bit different than season one. What do you think of that?

Plus we're also coming around like full circle to the roughly the Genesis time of POV crypto in the last bull market and the last bull cycle. I feel like we've we're coming up on like a full complete, you know loop. And so that makes sense. You know POV crypto is now two years old in the crypto and crypto market terms. Two years. Yeah absolutely. And if

you think about it by the end of this year we will have been talking about Bitcoin and crypto and Ethereum for four years. Yeah. Yeah that's that's a lot of time. That's so much time. Because Bitcoin's only 12 years old and Ethereum is only six years as old. It's pretty crazy to think that we've been in the crypto space for the majority of Ethereum's lifespan. Yeah

I mean. In a while it'll be a majority of both of these networks life. So like to not get out of it once you go in. This is a one way function once you go in. It's over. God can you imagine what it's going to be like from these things are like 70 years old Jesus. We're going to be the grandpa's telling about the Genesis like

the Genesis cycles of these entire public networks. That's pretty cool. Well the cool thing it's all going to be recorded. So the world is going to know everything we got right and everything we got. Yeah that's a cool thing about these public blockchains is that they are just like archaeological records of transactions. But then they also have like the most rich content ecosystems to go along

with every single like market movement that's layered into the actual blockchain. You can actually go back and listen to podcasts that were happening around the time of certain price movements. That's going to be a really interesting. Do you think I don't even know if anything if people are going to give that many folks about the culture in which these public blockchains got. Bootstrap by but like

the first 10, 10, 15, 20 years of Bitcoin and Ethereum history. They have like logged in podcasts and writing and then they also have the archaeological record. I think that's pretty interesting. Well yeah. They're founded in the world of documenting everything in the internet world. So yeah. You know I keep like thinking back to this analogy that is stuck in my head is like a old

religion and a like orthodox religion. Typically has some sort of like hand over shoulder passing down of the scripture and way from like the elder to like the next priest and stuff like that. And like that's kind of like a blockchain. And if you think about it Bitcoin and any other blockchain that kind of like stands the test of time is like a way better way

of doing that. It's so much cleaner. Like you can't debate about like the scripture of Bitcoin. Like it's literally in the world. It's in there. It's in it's in scribe into the blockchain. It's inevitable. You can go all the way to the Genesis block. You know every like you you must do that in order to actually use it. So I can't get over that analogy. That's

an interesting interesting perspective because like we have the Genesis of recorded history, right. But that's the Genesis of interpretive recorded history, right. Because not only do we have to interpret it, but we also have to interpret the interpretive. We have to interpret it in so many different ways. And you can go back to Genesis. And you can go back to Genesis. Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's incredible. It's incredibly powerful. Like it's a tool we've never had before of like going back in time and history and knowing exactly what was meant, not necessarily like having to, you know, predict or word of mouth or whatever. That I thought we were going to start off this episode talking about prices and 10x gains, but turns out we're going in the complete

opposite direction. We're talking about like metaphysical philosophy of public blockchains. Well, this is why POV crypto is the best podcast out there. But that is absolutely the truth. Let's let's hard pivot to Bitcoin prices and crypto prices. I mean, because we can do both. We're flexible like that. Absolutely. I mean, right before we got on this, I was just like scrolling through Twitter. And every single

trader is just like posting moon graphics and like saying things like eat all the way up. Eat this changing minds. This is the most crowded trade in history, blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, wow, I guess, eat this going to moon tonight. Who would have thunk it? Who would have fun? Get yeah, no, well, this is, I wrote a post in bank list. I think

last week or maybe the week before titled fundamentals are out. Reflexivity is in. And at some point, like, especially when retail comes into the market and especially when things break previous all time highs, like, there's no, when you're going to the moon, there's no foundation there. You're just drifting off in space. And so when, when you break an all time high, like Bitcoin did, like, as

soon as you break all time, Hi, people have to ask themselves, like, what is this worth? And no one knows the answer to that question. And so they just start fucking buying. And at some point, that's like going to be true for all tokens, like, DeFi summer is when like all fundamental all fundamentals, like go up door and only matters with that, you know, for ETH

right now, I think the trade is obvious because like Bitcoin just too exed and it's all time high. And then people are coming into this market, be like, okay, like the Bitcoin attention grabs the headlines, you know, it goes everywhere. People and then people come in and then they want that experience, but they know they can't go to Bitcoin to get it because it just happened

to Bitcoin. And so they just go down the list, like the next thing is either, Ether is still like 40% below it's all time high. So they're like, well, there's the obvious trade, like it's just going to do it next. Yeah, no, I make it complete sense. And I've been seeing it all over Twitter, I've been seeing it all over the media, this idea, like, okay,

Bitcoin topped. Like, this is the top of Bitcoin. Like that is the set to my outside of kind of like the Bitcoin maximalist and the people that are thinking, like Bitcoin, both cycle, which would span out a lot longer and go a lot higher and a lot further away from Bitcoin's mean. So yeah, I think what you're saying is completely true. And we're going to talk

about it more, but your, your DeFi season article, I think, had some extremely just good points about the market and the reality of the market. So kudos to, you know, that is as well as. Yeah. Sure. Thank you. What were we're about that post you want to start? I'm sorry, I mean, answer is you know, swap. Well, let's actually not get into the post and let's

let's talk. I want to talk a little bit more. We can finish up with that. But I guess like, what are you seeing right now? Like, it feels as though a lot of blue chip DeFi stuff is starting to move a lot. Polka dot moved a lot like, you know, the coins are moving. Uh-huh. Coins are moving. Yeah. The analogy that I've been using is that

like we are at like second 45 to like minute one of like the three minute popcorn. And then you obviously don't want to stay all the way till three minutes. No one leaves their popcorn in the microwave all the way till three minutes. Only a crazy person does that. So like the optimum time to pull out your popcorn is like two and a half minutes. And

I think we're at like one minute on the three minute popcorn bag. You're totally right. Like a lot of DeFi blue chips are kind of where sat. I'm watching SNX just absolutely. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to see it. I'm going to move in itself right now to past $16. Yeah, things are heating up. And it's just like going back to that

same conversation. I remember talking about SNX. I remember $2. I remember $2. SNX. Yeah. So I think you can go on the show. Can go on the show at like $4. Yeah, it was very three to $4. SNX. I mean, you know, swap even you know, swap. You know, swap said $9. $1.20. It bottomed out in the middle of like the DeFi bear market post summer,

like two and a half dollars. It's already like three or four or four or five X since then. That's crazy. So people have been making some money. Yeah, people that make money in the stock market are making money in crypto. They're having a lot of fun picking, picking and choosing their favorite coin on Coinbase. That's exactly right. People just like look at the tickers and they're

like, I like that ticker. And then they buy it. And then there's like a 60 sex. They make a decent amount of money. And they're like, oh, this is fun. And they just start shooting from the fucking hip. Just pouring more money into it. And that's how this whole thing starts. Yeah. I saw someone like make a post of like the top companies in crypto. And

they're pretty much all exchanges. Like almost every single one. Like the like in terms of like the top companies in terms of like the market cap of the company and value of the equity. Yeah. All exchanges. Right. So it's like yeah. And like, this is this is how you make money in space. So that's why I'm kind of long on you on uniswap specifically, just because

of the coinbase IPO trade. Like the contrast between Coinbase going doing this IPO. And I think it's going to IPO at like well above $100 billion. Like totally the the crypto mania is just going to give massive tailwinds to coinbase. Absolutely. And then uniswap is the defi correlate to coinbase. And so defi, I think, is going to be the branded alt season ecosystem. Like that's where

alt seasons going to happen. And it's going to happen on uniswap. Meanwhile, in the legacy world Coinbase is IPO at over $100 billion. And uniswap is this $2 billion market cap defi token that has the branding that everyone wants. I think it's the easiest trade in the world. Yeah. I mean, I saw like, I don't know. I saw people really shit talking the fundamentals of the

coin. But fundamentals don't even happen. That's what I said. Like, we fuck if it is in fundamentals. No, it does not matter. We can argue about fundamentals in the next bear market. Yeah. Yeah. And we talked about this last episode. Like the bull market, like no one's fighting. Everyone's just watching number go up. So. That's exactly right. It's good times. It is good times. Okay. So

let's go a little bit deeper into this because I would say there's a lot of truth in this article. You know, I have my specie live shit coin bag bags out there. And. When I look at them, like none of them are not Ethereum based. Like I have, I guess I have a little bit of like Tesos. That sounds gross to say. That does not gross

the his crystal here. What are you should do? You should share screen of the image in the article. I can't share screen because you have it locked. But like this article is, I think, summarized pretty. Okay. Cool. Article in a picture, right? So like 2017, we got Binance. By Binance was the altcoin casino. Then there was EOS XRP Bitcoin cash, you know, NEM, Tezos, Stellar, BNB

coin, like you can stop. You don't have to name. You know, a lot of new people don't know these things. Yeah. Like a lot of people don't know Neo or Iota, right? Aion. Really. Nios coming back. Nios not coming back. And then in 2021 instead of Binance, the new altcoin casino, which is now the DeFi token casino, is Uniswap. And you can get any asset listed

on a view on a swap on top of Uniswap, right? And like, that was, uh, Binance is big. It's permission. Yeah. It's the permission list by Nance. It's the truly permission list by Nance. But Binance was trying to have like pseudo permissionlessness by not having KYC and allowing anyone sign up. And then also being pretty free on the assets they were listing. Like, that's why Binance

did will. It had like pseudo permissionlessness. But Uniswap has full permissionlessness. And so it's going to be hot. Yeah. I mean, I can't argue with that. I think that permissionlessness is one of the key innovations here. Absolutely. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I also don't think any other major L1 blockchain is going to ship. Like, what else is there to do? Okay. Well, I guess. I really don't

know any of that stuff because I don't care. Well, maybe, maybe that's my bias. Yeah, also don't care. And so I'm not paying attention to any other L1 blockchain. But I think it's pretty safe bet. Like, I can barely care about sephys not Bitcoin. It's really fucking hard. Like, when I don't talk to David, I feel out of touch. I truly do. About a three-room. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like what we're doing a lot of shows, I'm like, I know my shit. Like, come on. I'm like, I'm like, I'm okay. Oh, it's kind of funny. Yeah. Yeah. I would say that I mean, obviously, Bitcoin's easier to like stay up to date with because there's no development on the L1 and there's no AppLayer. I mean, it's different. Yeah. Sure.

I wouldn't say that there's no development on the AppLayer. Or sorry, on the L1. Like, the most recent Bitcoin core release enabled a lot of stuff within using Bitcoin core as a wallet. And now there's like, for the first time, you can use Bitcoin core for consensus. And then nothing else about the wallet. So it really like, we're starting to modularize Bitcoin and it's starting to

make it a lot easier to like actually interact with it and like use consensus and build other stuff with now. Now having to deal with all the constraints of like the Bitcoin core wallet and stuff like that, it's just different than a theory. Yeah. Like, I feel like people in a theorem, it's just high flying like innovation where it's like Bitcoin. It's like, we're doing this

thing. How do we do this? One thing better. And it's just like how do we innovate at getting sure it polishing Bitcoin, but like Bitcoin is turning into a really fucking sharp sphere. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. None of Bitcoin's features enable speculating and shit coins. Except for selling it. Yeah. I mean, dude, I mean people like to talk about shit coins. No, totally.

And it's funny because like, Bitcoiners hate shit coins, but everyone else loves tokens. Like, that's like, that's one of the things that people love about. The tokens. And I feel like Ethereum is really like all of the speculation. Energy is all in Ethereum. All like all like the long tail of speculation outside of like straight speculations. And so, like, the thing that's really fascinating on Bitcoin

is literally all happening on Ethereum. I think that's pretty fucking pretty. Yeah. And even some of speculating on Bitcoin is also happening on Ethereum too. Like, it's just like, to me, it's the same argument that Bitcoiners would give about like volatility in Bitcoin's. It's just like a shit coins. And like, sure, they're right. But like, the DeFi tokens are still going to go to like a

billion dollar in valuation. And then they're going to provide a fuck ton of funding to solve all the problems that Bitcoiners are totally right about. And so, just like, you know, I mean, you know, I think that's really good. And I think that's really good. And so, you know, you know, I mean, it's really good. And so, you know, it's just like, you know, I mean,

I think that's really good. I mean, I don't know about necessarily solve all the problems, but it will do all the price stuff that you just mentioned. I mean, you can imagine there's not very many problems in the world that you can't throw enough money out to solve. That's a pretty fiat-minded way to think about things. Go on. I just like, I feel like that's the

old paradigm is throw money at stuff. And just, hey, there's these specific things we're going to fund. And we're going to fund these things and make sure that, you know, the money's going to carry us. We're going to have the best engineers and who cares. But guess what? Like, that was the mentality for how to get into flight. And like, everything that the government funded, you

can look up these stories about the right brothers and who they're competing against failed. And it was these two just like small innovators that actually succeeded. Not to say that, you know, I don't want to make direct comparisons. I'm sure like, you could say argue how Ethereum is the small innovative core group. But I just think that throwing money at problem problems doesn't necessarily mean that

they'll be solved. And that would have ended up over going there. But we weren't pretty much angry on most things. Well, I still agree with that because like, I expect, you know, just like in the ICO, Mania, like there were 10,000 ICOs and then maybe like seven of them did things. And the DeFi token Mania is going to do the same thing. Like way too much

stuff is going to be way too highly evaluated, evaluated. But then, you know, there's going to consolidate. And it's ultimately going to fix some of the problems that some of the DeFi tokens offer promises solve. And then many will die. The problems aren't, I agree that the problems aren't guaranteed to be solved. But the problems that can be solved will be solved. And then we offer

foundation scaffolding for the next DeFi Mania, right? The next Ethereum growth phase. So, um, I now remember what I was going to say. I really agree with your statement that, um, I really agree with your statement that like the profitability on DeFi is, um, is a bootstrapping mechanism for Ethereum. And like, if you ignore Ethereum's network effects, I feel like you're just not being honest, right?

Like you have to be honest. Personally, I'm like fearful. I think that like E2 is a network effects killer. And like, potentially like, you know, a lot of the stuff that the Ethereum community is doing is like equivalent of a Byzantine general attack on Ethereum one, which is what has like the momentum right now. But at the same time, I'm a bit quite or who would

have told Ethereum to stop doing what they're doing years ago. And with everyone who got those points, yeah. So what the fuck do I know? Like at some point, you got to like, understand your circle of competence and just shut the fuck up and what I'm not kind of realizing is that Ethereum is really know a lot about Ethereum. And Bitcoin is really know a lot

about Bitcoin. And most parties don't really know very much about either the other thing. And like, I think that 2020 proved both right. I would, I would 100% agree with that. If you like a 2020 and you don't say that Bitcoin is really fucking right, then I'm going to say that Bitcoin is a really good thing. And like, you're not being honest, but at the same

time, if you look at 2020, and you would say that you're really fucking right, then you're just not being honest. Yeah. And I think with the important distinction that like most other blockchains were wrong. EOS wrong, you know, Tron was never even right to begin with, right? You know, Bitcoin cash wrong, Bitcoin gold wrong. Any other Ethereum killer, the only other Ethereum killer that hasn't yet

been proven wrong is dot. And then, I don't even, we can't, it's way too early to say that they've been proven right, quote unquote, quote, unquote, right, whatever right even means. But like, there's only, and that, and that, you'll know when you see it. You'll know when you see it. And I think you'll, yeah, you'll know when you see it. Like, and I think it is

money. Yeah, definitely, definitely don't see it and dot as soon as dot achieves a monetary premium. I think that is it, right? Like, ETH has a monetary premium Bitcoin has a monetary premium. And I think that that's kind of the whole point of this industry. Obviously, this is a crypto economic revolution. It's in the, let's talk about that. So I remember a big theme of previous

P.o.v. Crypto pods was you trying to convince me and the listeners that this is a monetary revolution. And like, what most people don't realize about cryptocurrency is it's actually about the money, not about the technology. And I, well, I partly agree with that, but it's also about the technology too. Like it's a cryptocurrency industry. Like there's, it's one part tech cryptography and one part money. And

you have to maximize both aspects to get the best value out of your chain. How do you feel about that take? Vietnitly disagree. But I don't want to dive down that rabbit hole. Super, super hard. Got it. Oh, I have a good, but here, here's something. Here's a good kind of, here's a good mental model or, or, or way of thinking of if something is money,

right? A measure of how, like, money something is. You should look at how many people vehemently hate it, but still use it. So if you like, if you want to measure money, and space on that, then there's very few things that actually are money. The dollar is money because like China fucking hates it. Russia fucking hates it. It's still not fucking use it. That's interesting. Bitcoin

is money. It seems as though Ethereum is money because like I fucking hate Ethereum. I mean, I don't fucking hate it, but you know, I'm saying like, I don't want to fucking hold Ethereum. But here I am. If I want to speculate on these shit coins, like, here I go. So I mean, like, if you really want like, and there's, I'm sure there's like, you can

scale this in different directions. And if you can zoom out and see like, from a macro perspective, how much something is money. But, you know, I've kind of been trying to think of it that way. And very few things are money. Like the year was not money. If you think about it that way, like, unless you're geographically bound in the year of territory, like, the year

is not money. Yeah. Definitely not global money. I definitely agree with that as a signal when it's present. But I still think there's the possibility that there's, like, shouldn't the ideal money be the asset that everyone wants to use as money? Like, money, I don't think baked into the definition of what money is, is the law that every that some portion of the people must hate

it. So there could be a version of money that everyone just enjoys using. And no one actually has like a bias against it. I think that's still within the realm of possibility. Well, I mean, I would say that every government that wants monetary sovereignty would hate something that takes it away. So like, all of them want to constrain gold because gold itself is like kind of

if it were to work, it could theoretically kind of play as a balancing act or a side, you know, kind of like something that the tethers. That tethers the country's monetary sovereignty. So, you know, if a country was forced to hold Bitcoin despite obviously being stripped a lot of their monetary sovereignty because of its existence, like that would demonstrate extreme moneyness in my opinion. Yeah. But

then you're just backing up into everyone's going to be jealous of the ability to issue seniorage. And so like, I guess everyone, everyone hates the fact that they don't have that ability. I think that's the most generalize of the possible version of that argument. I wish I had the ability to print money. Yeah. I mean, I would argue that there's a ton of seniorage that is

present in the DeFi ecosystem. And you have benefited from it. And many other people who are knowledgeable insiders have also benefited from printing in the DeFi ecosystem. I would agree with that take. I wouldn't. It's kind of not really seniorage though. I guess, I mean, you can classify as seniors though. But I think that's a functionally strong definition because these DeFi tokens aren't money. They're DeFi

tokens. Sure, whatever. But it's benefiting from printing. I mean, you would, I could say that, you know, if you have the privilege of IPOing, then you benefit from printing. Okay. Yeah. Then yes. Indeed. Okay. The cool thing about DeFi tokens is that everyone can benefit from the issuance, right? Like that is the categorical difference. And I'm writing about this in an article coming out on bagel

us on. Thursday is that like, there's two ways to solve the seniorage problem. You either delete it with what Bitcoin did or you harness it and like Robinhood it, which is give it to everyone, which is what a theorem is trying to do. And really the whole like six year long process and research and development of Ethereum 2.0 was actually trying to solve this problem. I

will, this problem and one more problems. There's two problems that Ethereum 2.0 was trying to solve access to ability to rights to the blockchain. And then access to the ability to have consensus participation in the blockchain and therefore receive ether issuance. Like that, that has been like proof of stake and should be a less signatures, which are like the main innovation going into e2 are about

increasing the amount of seniorage that ethers Ethereum is able to be issued to the most amount of people. Well, and so like, Ethereum is Robinhooding it. Distributing senior or distributing assets or funds is one of the hardest things to do. And agreed. So it's extremely hard. I think your analysis is accurate ish in terms of the distinctions between Bitcoin and Ethereum. I don't necessarily I just

don't know enough about eth to and economics and like how that solves it at all. I mean, I too am writing an article. It's actually it's been written and it's going through the editorial process, but it's going out on Friday called cancel on effect 2.0 and talking about like how money has never been fair. And how Bitcoin kind of turns the cancel on effect on that

head. And I'm sure that you could argue in a future Bitcoin world that future token issuance will generate value. And it will only be and it will only it will only capture value if it creates if it actually generates value. Like because people will be minting you know, Andreas talked about this. Everyone will have a coin, you know, like coins will be, you know, so everyone

can issue things and be so meaningless that unless you act to create tremendous value, you know, no value will be captured or generated in that area. Wow. That's a really interesting take right back from. Well, can't a lot 2.0 or have a token. No, well, both. No, everyone haven't token was Andreas. I guess that's can't a lot in 2.0. How did you like for come to

formulate those ideas? Because that's fucking awesome. Well, co co written with Dennis saw it. But he wrote an article on Bitcoin magazine about why Bitcoin is right. And in that article, I was inspired and we kind of went back and forth and he said cancel on effect 2.0. And I said, yeah, we should write something. So interesting. That's come out Friday. So I'm going to definitely

read that. My mind went to because what you're saying is like, if everyone meant to token, then the token that ether as the token that would theoretically capture all the tokens that other people mint and gas fees and transaction fees in the IP 1559 is able to sustain itself via issuance. And then also the all the all the all the Ethereum argument, Ethereum arguments would be

that, well, you know, it's great that you have a easy solution to the senior senior issue problem, where you just delete the problem when you don't have senior age. But then you're also losing the ability to fund yourself at the same time. And so like will Bitcoin be able to capture enough value to sustain itself without the ability to print itself is an unknown question. I

mean, that's, I feel like that's definitely a altcoin or constant skepticism. Like I would say this is, well, I guess, I guess so. But like specifically the Ethereum monetary policy is in avoidance of this problem. Right. Yeah. Well, yeah, you guys have hinged a lot on this assumption about Bitcoin. Well, I mean, I don't think it's hinged on that being on it. It's not hinged on

Bitcoin by any means is that Ethereum as a protocol needs to ensure its security above all because of it needs to host all the tokens. It has to host all the tokens. So it needs to maintain security over monetary policy. You know, I don't know enough about security to, you know, continue talking about it. But ultimately these are different things and Bitcoin exists. So why can't

they do something different? You know, if anything, if Ethereum just kept trying to do a Bitcoin data, it would look more like like coin, which, right, and that would be done. Everyone, no one paying attention to that other than maybe the unit bias idiots. Right. And I always just see like this consistent like duality between Bitcoin and Ethereum, right. There's proof of stake and there's proof

of work. There is, you know, expressivity or like reductiveness. There's, there's deleting the seniorage so no one can have it or giving the seniorage to everyone so everyone can have it. And there's really like so many of these things that only seem to be two options. And that's when even when we started this podcast, like it was the Bitcoin versus Ethereum podcast because we believe I

believe I don't think you were convinced about a theory at that point. But that there would be these all these were the only two block options. I think that was a conclusion that you could have come to out of the end of 2017, the start of 2018. I think you, it was rational to have come to that conclusion by at that point. I don't even know

what I'm waiting for. I mean, we see a lot of network effects. So I usually typically look for network effects. So that's good. Let's see if this Byzantine general attack works out and y'all can keep coordinating. I think the transition to East two. Yeah. I think the transition to East two where East one gets like loaded up into East two is is an easier process than

what Bitcoiners think it is. You know, like I said, I don't, I don't claim to be an expert on Ethereum. And but I, I would say that I do know a lot about Bitcoin. And. And you know, you're talking about there's two. There's two spaces, you know, there's Bitcoin, there's like two pollers, you know, there's Bitcoin is this. And then Ethereum is that I would argue

that no, there's just one space. It's the Bitcoin space. Bitcoin's the foundation Ethereum is built on top of Bitcoin. And it addresses a lot of things. Top of Bitcoin. What does that even mean? It is. Like from a monetary perspective, Bitcoin enabled Ethereum to exist. Like the entire crypto space is built on top of it is built on top of Bitcoin. All of it. No, that's

not. That is. No, if you, if you delete a Bitcoin, Ethereum would still run. Ethereum is not dependent on Bitcoin. But if Bitcoin didn't come around, Vitalik would never have been able to create Ethereum. That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He was. I built upon like the inventor of cars. Where we stand. No, we, we stand on the shoulders of giants. Absolutely. That doesn't impact the

relationship between here. Think about this way. If you price anything in Sats, you're using Bitcoin. Ethereum has been priced in Sats since the day it was born. Only by pricing. There's some for Ethereum. That doesn't matter. That is, that is not something to rest an argument on top of. I mean, I would argue again, like if you really look at this entire space, like Bitcoin was

born and it enabled altcoins. Like it was the trading pair against altcoins. It was always been the crypto reserve currency. Like money is what creates an economy. It is the way to interpret and spend value. And Bitcoin is the first digital bear asset on the Internet. It's the first true cash instrument on the Internet. It literally spawned the entire Internet organic monetary revolution is all stemmed

from, you know, that one point. Yeah. Everything is a fractal off of Bitcoin. Well, yeah, everything is technology is a fractal. Like sure, like everything is a fractal off of the Internet, which is a fractal off of like wires, which is a fracture off of like I'm not arguing. I'm not here arguing that Bitcoin's not built on top of the Internet. It was been on the

Internet. And it was built on top of the only infrastructure. It's such an unhelpful distinction. Like, okay, cool. If you were or it's an example of Bitcoin, it's just built downstream of Bitcoin as time goes. Like you know, you talk about like, Hey, Bitcoin pumps and then flows. Yes. Go into Ethereum and then like this is part of it being built on top of Bitcoin. Hey,

guess what? We're on a four year cycle. Guess what has a four year cycle? Oh, it's Bitcoin with the having like, okay, congrats. It's a cognitive dissidents is insane here. It doesn't even I'm not saying it's not all those things are true. Like sure, it may be that maybe the crypto cycles are four years because that's how long Bitcoin haven't even scope. Maybe even then it

wouldn't fucking matter because they're still independent. We can agree to disagree. Like I said, I know a lot more about Bitcoin than you do. Well, yeah, but what you were saying is that you're not going to be able to do that. You're trying to claim it's something outside of Bitcoin and Dodgers to Bitcoin. Like, you know, when you think of like internet companies and.com companies like

all of those are built like they are organizations that are built on top of the internet. Okay. Like Ethereum is the first Bitcoin organization that was enabled by Bitcoin that truly was successful. And there's many others like you could look at a lot of the like fringe weird like, you know, not legally situated. Exchanges and many of them also, you know, operate and have been enabled

by Bitcoin. So like more and more organization and type of organization and variety of organizations and tons of, you know, other innovations are going to continue to fractal off of the foundation that Bitcoin has created for the for the world. Okay. That's great. Imagine in a world where this the government or somebody has success. It's like shut down Bitcoin in the promotion of Ethereum. That is

a world where Bitcoin is not working as a blockchain as a crypto system and Ethereum is working as a result of Bitcoin. Not being there. Ethereum is doing just fine and congrats. Like it was originally built on Bitcoin. And Ethereum has all of the market cap of whatever this crypto economic revolution is. Like, I don't know what you're trying to like. So you want to get

a few people to like pay homage to Bitcoin as like. The. This has nothing to do with homage. You're making this a lot more personal and defensive than it is. It is about observing reality. I. I. No, it's a semantic debate. No, absolutely not. This is trying to understand how the space is working. So I commented on how realistic you were in this in your piece

that you wrote about, you know, tokens and DeFi and all how the market all works in the bull run. I'm just trying to help you understand how the space works from a macro perspective. And that's how it works. And like if you. If you can't like step back and back, yeah, this is how it works. Like you actually are like this. The biggest cognitive distance that

most ethats prevent them from actually understanding Bitcoin. Okay, here's what I think we are arguing is that you are saying that Ethereum is built on Bitcoin and that everything's downstream of Bitcoin. What I'm hearing from what I'm hearing from that is when I hear of built on something. I'm hearing that the value of the market cap value of Ethereum or the things built on Ethereum, which

you are saying is built on Bitcoin would be captured by Bitcoin. And so like the app layer, the value of the app layer on Ethereum, all the DeFi tokens, plus the value of Ethereum. Since that's built on Bitcoin, Bitcoin would be of a higher valuation than Ethereum. I'm saying in a world where it's fit possible that Bitcoin is deleted from the universe. And there's only Ethereum.

Ethereum is not built on Bitcoin because it can still operate while Bitcoin doesn't exist. And the market cap of Ethereum actually doesn't pay any homage to Bitcoin. So when you say that everything is built on Bitcoin, it's just a semantics thing saying that like Bitcoin came first. And the Ethereum market cap is possible for it to go to $100 trillion. And the Bitcoin market cap is

zero using your analysis of Ethereum is built on Bitcoin. And so like sure, congratulations. If in a world where Bitcoin is deleted and Ethereum is $100 trillion, I'll sure. So in that world, this is here whenever whenever one someone says, so what you really say is that you're going to be able to do the Ethereum market cap value of Ethereum. And so like, you're saying, like

that's generally just like you are you are communicating a delusion. So you have this delusion that I'm saying that Ethereum is not valuable because it is at because I'm saying the reality that Ethereum was enabled by the fact that Bitcoin existed. And therefore, Vitalik and the team could have funding and fund their project that they worked on and created. And the entire time Ethereum had a

trading value against something that with able people to actually communicate value in it, you are ignoring that that's that did in fact happen. And that is what enabled that's not that's nowhere to be. No, but here's the thing like yes, like if you understand that the entire time Bitcoin was money that enabled Ethereum to happen, then you understand that, Hey, Bitcoin is money and your statement

where you were kind of freaking out about me saying that, Hey, downstream from Ethereum is Bitcoin. Like the reality is that everything is trending to zero in Bitcoin terms. Like you have to understand that every single thing in the universe, if you price it, you know, it's in Bitcoin terms. So yeah, I am kind of saying that any value that's created by Ethereum ultimately gets captured

in 21 million in Bitcoin. But I'm not also saying that Ethereum is not valid. I'm not also saying that Ethereum doesn't have good qualities. I'm not also saying that it won't capture value. I'm just saying you were saying the reality in fact that, yeah, hey, you know, Bitcoin was the digital money that existed, which in the past, it enabled all of the crypto space to be

created. And it still continues to enable it to thrive and exist with, you know, Bitcoin's shell and armor to protect it. Okay, this is this is like saying that anything that has a market price on a secondary market is built on Bitcoin. Once we go through hyper Bitcoinization and everything is price and sats. Well, if you price everything in sats, then everyone uses Bitcoin. Yes, correct.

So if you price something, but also we need to make a formula for Bitcoin. So distinction that when you say built on Bitcoin, there's nothing fundamentally structural about the Bitcoin blockchain that supports other things. You're talking about it from a monetary angle. You started this argument saying that you said Ethereum was built on Bitcoin. And you got triggered. It was fun. Yes, because it's wrong. No,

it's not because it's wrong in the way. What is Ethereum built on? Is it built on cloud servers and like Ethereum is a network of hardware. Yes, yes. And so and it's also a value token that. Is traded against something else. And that something else has been and always was Bitcoin. Yes, Ethereum is built on the universe and the other things that inhabit this universe. I

guess we're all built on each other to collectively. Like the foundation of my house shares some sort of foundation with your house in San Francisco. I guess we're built on the same foundation together. Like what's like it's just a meaningless point or perspective to offer anyone. I mean, there's the substrate substrate that connects me and you. Sure. Bitcoin's like air. Bitcoin is totally unproven, whether it's

like air or not. That's as much of a speculation as to what the Bitcoin can do that. There's the thing of this is this is my problem with these heads is that they just don't full. Yeah, maybe it's pay homage to Bitcoin, but they actually just don't appreciate, you know, what Bitcoin is. That's because you guys think that Bitcoin has this God given right to just

pump forever. That's a ridiculous thing to think God given it's it's it's a specific properties. And those specific properties will instrumentalize into. It becoming the global reserve currency and everything that is we are 12 years. This is measured in a hardcapped unit. Well, you know, humans have always created more abundance. So if the units that you measure that abundance never change, but the abundance continue to

grow. Everything will trend to zero in that unit. It's not like I'm saying like it's this amazing thing. It's like, yeah, sound money does that. That's what it does. And when the world transitions to a sound money standard, that is what the what the movie that direction. That's how that will how the world that's how the world will orient that's what we're working. Why can't we

price. The Ethereum ecosystem in like 2X the Bitcoin ecosystem or 5X the Bitcoin ecosystem or 55X the Bitcoin ecosystem. Why can't we price like the entirety of the Ethereum blockchain priced in maybe it's worth like 200 million Bitcoins. Why can't we do that? Well, I mean the current ecosystem or the current economy is worth, you know, more than 21 million Bitcoin. But I just don't think

what you actually mean. Like when people say built on something, Bitcoin will be the biggest asset in the entire world. It's going to be 50% of every single trade. That's the direction is going. This is if you understand. We're in the central POV crypto episode. We have ever done. And if you understand that reality, you understand that everything is going to be trending to zero in

Bitcoin terms. Like you understand from a monetary perspective, like everything will be interpreted into Bitcoin. Like that's what Bitcoin is doing. That is this point. Like that's why we're sharpening the spear in order to do that. Like Bitcoin is such a. It's such a what's the word. Like people always think that, hey, Ethereum is this like really, really like out there thing. Like they're trying to

achieve so much. But like, I think that Bitcoin is actually trying to achieve a lot more. Like Bitcoin is really trying to rewrite how the entire world is functioning. How the entire world is orienting. I think when you say everything trends to zero in Bitcoin. I think when you say everything is built on Bitcoin, I think I can agree with you. If you extend that Bitcoin,

the idea of the idea of what you are saying, where like the world is built on scarcity, can actually the idea of Bitcoin is actually living in Ethereum. And so I could agree with that, like, scarcity and trending towards scarcity versus a world of abundance. That whole dichotomy can exist on top of Ethereum because Ethereum is sure a fractal off the extension of what Bitcoin is.

Yet Bitcoin needed to actually expand on the technology side in a dip to into fulfill its manifest destiny of everything trending towards zero versus scarcity. And the idea of Bitcoin sure is alive and well. See, yeah, now you think that you're going to upgrade Bitcoin because that's what's good for your bags. And that's not. That's not going to happen. That's exactly exactly what's going to happen.

This is why you can't understand that that everything is built like the entire crypto. I mean, you say I can't understand, but I just say that you can't understand like two. See, but there's there is no foundation where Ethereum is. The foundation of the crypto ecosystem. The foundation is changing that it is being attacked. And on top of that, that foundation is what we know for

a fact that it is above Bitcoin. Like here's Bitcoin in here's Ethereum. If you if you, so you can take generalize Bitcoin rug under. Okay, then maybe Ethereum will be floating there, but Ethereum will be worse off for it. And then on top of that, Ethereum is literally being Byzantine general attacked by its own community. The percentage of people of general attack. Yes, look at that.

People people. Well, I hope listeners of POV crypto would know what that is. I think the perception shit. What was I going to say? The only piece of it. If you get security like or just like monetary policy, mainly monetary policy. If you get that close enough, only like 0.2% of the world will care about the difference between Ethereum's monetary policy and big coins. Like just

just and that's the point you're suspect. Crypto is the biggest Bitcoin in the world. It's just going to become in sense. I think that is I think that is the misconception. Zero like rounding down to zero people give a. Give that many facts about Bitcoin. No, it's not going to it. It's not going to be they care about Bitcoin, maximum. It's literally they want to do

whatever. Perfect scarcity. The thing that helps them do it. Yeah. Perfect scarcity is not just create. But I feel like I think that's all about that. Bitcoin maximalist. Not not not by like I don't know Bitcoin being the global reserve currency is means that most people will use it and it will be the most obvious thing to use as money. I think I think the most

obvious thing to use as money will be the asset that allows them to play all their games and speculate in all their defy tokens because that's what's fun. That's not what the world is not speculating the world is doing stuff. Sure it is. You look at gambling to business to investing and it's all on the same spectrum. Look at look at the cash market. Cash is

the most popular instrument in the entire planet when it comes to a monetary instrument. Cash is the lowest denominator of monetary instruments. Right. And when it's the cash of the entire Bitcoin is the cash is the entire. For investing in the stock market. If you look at that, that's a lot of mindset. You are you are stuck in the fiat mindset. You can't you like you

you're cognitive distance to understand what Bitcoin is doing to the world is very obvious right now. So you know that you're stuck in fiat lands. You know that's that meme cycle that you like to cite where like you know the the pleb comes into crypto and they start with Bitcoin and then they go to like ether, Monero and Bitcoin and then they go to a bunch

of shit coins and then they end back at Bitcoin. This is like the Austrian in fiat or Austrian Keynesian out not even Keynesian but like the Austrian or whatever you think the Ethereum version of Austrian is my and say and like those things just leapfrog like first there was Austrian with gold then there was fiat with dollars and then there was Austrian with Bitcoin and now

there's this like pseudo Austrian is a lot on Ethereum. I think that's what's happening. It's like well I'm saying like you're saying like you haven't elevated yourself there yet and I'm saying well you have you you haven't elevated yourself there yet. Nope not saying that and I disagree with your example. No I there there there is tools to use his money and there are technological advancements

that help money scale and banking was a technological advancement that help gold scale but it required trust and now we are entering into a stage in the world. The tools to use his money and is Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the most obvious thing to do there. It's already a massively huge network by the time Bitcoin was a billion dollar network it already had one Bitcoin is like

what what's Bitcoin it's like almost 400 billion. More than that how much is Bitcoin isn't that mean. I literally don't even know the market cap isn't that what is that mean it's tool for what you want. Who cares what it's at now. It's already one percent. I wanted it. But that's network effects are compounding. So like Bitcoin is already by far the biggest and it's only

going to compound from here. I don't think that's true. I don't think that the lead that you think you keep saying that like Bitcoin is the lesson and exponentials like Ethereum is not that far behind Bitcoin in like less than half the time. Because it's built on Bitcoin. Bitcoin already paid. It's built on itself. Let's let's let's just agree. Yeah, let's just wrap this one. I

need to make a take. I have a nice bone in rib eye post a picture on Twitter. I'll be posting a picture of it as it is completed and celebrating ETH all time. Hi. Hey, my happy. It's richer every day. Just get richer every day. Oh my god. This was truly the quintessential POV crypto. So I think if anyone wants to ever ask me what is

POV crypto about I'm going to send them this episode. It kind of got a little redundant at the end. But yeah, I mean it's important with that's that those this is the dividing. And the line between you and me and our beliefs and so we're just like tiptoeing around the line over and over and over again. Who do you believe listeners? Who do you believe as

a follow CK at CK underscore snarks and at Bitcoin magazine. David follow me at trustless state both on Twitter and on bankless. I don't know why I refer to myself in third person, but whatever. Sure. All right. Yes. So you believe. This number and your might as well. I'll tear the light. The eyes are red and it's awful. You too decide. Will you deserve? Will you

deceive? Will you deceive? Will you deceive? Will you deceive? Will you deceive? Will there's a cry in the water? Will there be a cry in the water? Will there be a cry in the water? Will there be a cry in the water? Is I here in the rain? Is I here in the rain? Is I here in the rain? Is I here in the rain?