Bull Market Mentality

Welcome everyone to POV crypto the only podcast that both Bitcoiners and Ethereum is listening to I'm David Hoffman here with my buddy Christian Christian How you doing? Doing good men. It is a good day Yeah, how about you? It's a good day to be in the bull market something I was talking to Ryan about recently and some other people is that like you know the cycles

go and sign you saw it waves right it's a cycle and we're at one point in the cycle but the cycles aren't like uniform or choppy like like the time is different and so like the bull market part of these crypto cycles is very like sharpened pronounced but overall is it's compressed in time and then those bear market and all the other things that aren't the

bull market actually take up the majority of people's time so it's probably time to reflect on how we're lucky to be in a bull market like there's not that many instances of bull markets and we're in one right now and so we should all appreciate that because it's going to be over before we know it. Yeah, for sure and with that being said like the bear

market does have a lot of benefits right like a lot, lot less noise. That's what the bear market is about like the bear market. There's so little noise that all you can do is argue which is I mean some of it can be annoying but a lot of it like really sharpened your knife and sharpened your arguments and makes you makes you better like that's the

kind of discourse that for me made Twitter so interesting the last few years. Now it's a very different vibe. Absolutely. Yeah, what's nice about bear markets is that everyone in the bear market is obviously in it for the long-term game right. There are long-term players in bear markets by definition because who else would be in the industry during a bear market other than somebody who knows

that they can stick through it for you know better times in the future and playing long-term games. However, everyone gets to have their first shot at playing the game and that's what bull markets are all about. Yeah, I mean and with that being said like both you and I got pulled in during a bull market. Most people get pulled in into bull markets the years that

you know often come up or 2013 2017. I think 2021 is going to be a big year for a lot of people and their first experience with Bitcoin and crypto. So very exciting about the same time like how do you how do you go from like thinking about the bear market or not even understanding what the bear market is like. And crypto at all too like

now I'm in a Bitcoin bull market and like all of this stuff is happening so much stuff is happening so much noise is everywhere. Like how do you come to understand what's true. Yeah, I mean in like here's the thing like hard liners who have been in it for a long time like there are a lot of them like they maybe get through the bull market

and it's great or whatever but a lot of them don't maximize what they could have gotten out of it right. Like there's a lot of like. In terms of like this huge opportunity to make a lot of money like I feel like there's a very specific type of mentality. Yeah, I'm reminded of Daniel Connommons thinking fast and slow where you know he promotes like not not

being impulsive basically right and like thinking through your decisions and really really rationalizing about it. And I guess that's not really like smart advice like duh. But just I think impulse control. And being mainly being zen I would say the main difference between who I am as a person in 2021 versus 2017 is I've committed more time to practicing like just mindfulness and just being aware

of myself. And I think that as a skill is perhaps more to the best features you could bring into a bull market whereby definition like everything is so emotionally driven. Like when when tokens in Bitcoin and ether are painting all time high after all time high. Like like we said before. And then like like I've been saying on the bankless pod like refund fundamentals are out

and there's only reflexivity and what reflexivity is is mainly emotions right and so if your emotions are out of whack like you're probably not going to make it fam like you got to get your emotions like in a line you have to you have to make slower trades you have to be more patient about things and like. I want to bring this up I'm sure you

saw Ivan's ever spec the pump video. Yeah so so it was all about. Respecting the pump like letting the pump come into your life if you if you see a token pumping that's not yours and you don't have that token. You don't like feel jealousy of that pump you say like congratulations to those bag holders congratulations you guys got your pump. And if you give out

that that good vibes you will get those good vibes in return like in turn you will receive the pump if you are just patient. And I feel like that's like you can either chase the pump or you can have or you can let the pump come to you and like that it's kind of a nice to wait to like read yourself off of a photo if

you think in that way just like you know be patient and like accept the pump into your life and eventually the pump will come to you and give you its blessings. There's a very easy way to continuously get the pump and that is just DCA into really good assets. So obviously I think that that is you should be DCing into Bitcoin. It's up to you if

you want to DCA to either any other crypto thing but in terms of respecting the pump and and minimizing FOMO building a position you know I don't I'm not a trader like a lot of traders will say you should ape into stuff but I mean unless like it is truly that kind of action like I just feel like you should make a decision. I like this

thing for whatever reason. Hopefully you guys will be able to see that. Hopefully it has a lot of signs of a quality asset that you want to hold for a long long period of time and you have confidence and conviction in it and build a position. And before you know it you feel like you have these positions and these pumps are happening and you're like oh

I'm good I got it. I have a position you don't even really care about your entry price that much because it was by definition just lower than it is now so it doesn't matter. Yeah no that's exactly right I was talking I was talking to my sister this morning and I was telling her I'm writing this. This opening market Monday note for the bank this newsletter

and I talk about some of these dynamics but and I realized there's something about these crypto markets that are inherently not not intuitive to people coming into this base which is like I mean maybe maybe your plan is different but like I plan on quote unquote trying to sell the top right like I plan on trying to sell the top so that I can buy the

bottom and I'm not saying like 100% of my assets but like it's pretty substantial now I probably over 50% of my crypto assets I'll sell try and sell out the top and the whole intention of that is so that I can buy more at the bottom like if we know the cycle's work in cycles then that seems like a relatively acceptable trade to make it is

rational. And that's something that people aren't ready or like aren't equipped to understand about because like people like my sister which is where this conversation came about she's like an S&P 401K investor right like time in the market beats timing the market blah blah blah blah blah we've all heard it. A thousand times before but people aren't equipped to like try and actually think of this

crypto movement in cycles like I remember in 2017 I was like. This is a new paradigm like there is no there is no bear market after this like this is this is it this is it this is it into the future and so I'll never have to sell and that was a mistake. And so like this time I'm thinking about selling the top to buy back

the bottom and I don't think most most people most retail people aren't equipped to come into this market understanding that strategy. Yeah I mean so this is where I think there needs to be a significant distinction in your bags at least for me. And to be honest if your sister is the kind of person that is like DCA into her dollar cost average into her 401k

position which is all highly diversified index funds. She shouldn't fucking touch tokens. She should not. She should be in the Bitcoin and I mean she knows you so DC into Ethereum too. Like I think there isn't been interested on buying anything she's just happened to call that but yet so like but if she like if someone like her is trying to get into crypto in Bitcoin

like don't fucking touch any token because of course she's not going to have the mentality Ben with any any of the prerequisites to properly time a market unless you are literally doing it for her which is a different situation. So she should just build a position in Bitcoin and Ethereum. I would say never stop DCing just literally put whatever amount of money like imagine a hamburger.

Okay how much is that cost or imagine a meal that is like you would easily get that for lunch without flinching take that amount DCA DCA a weekly amount into Bitcoin and Ethereum and then never stop. Yeah see the problem with that. That's how that is how 99% people should be dealing with with these things. The problem with that though is like people want to play

the token game right like no one wants to come into the world of crypto cryptos and like not play with tokens. Like you're going to have to scratch that it somewhere. Yeah well I mean that's the the world is speculating on stuff a lot more right now because that's the incentive like the asset there are cash is trash they see all the volatility and upside in

stuff and everyone it's so sexy to be a trader like TikTok investor and all this stuff like war from home. Yeah I'm a trader I'm just going to pick stocks they go up I try to just like discussingly glorified. It's so glorified right now and it's the path to being wrecked unless you know what you're doing. So like for example David and I and I would

guess a majority of the people that are listening especially long time listeners of POV crypto know what they're doing they've been here for the bear market this is a bear market podcast. Podcast didn't exist. In a bear market before this. This is retail isn't listening to POV crypto straight up the season one is the bear market POV season two which is right now episode three. This

is bull market POV so this is season two and we're we are as a cohort of now long time crypto holders and participants are you know we are exploring the bear market the bull market and we're going to talk about how to optimize on some of this stuff but if you're new to this like don't hurt your shit don't hurt yourself you're going to get wrecked

there's a lot of people who know a lot more than you. One of my one of my friends is making plays into like cross chain tokens so tokens that are representative of like cross chain assets so like rent would be one of these tokens or like what's the other one. Boring down boring like a boring tunnel like between two between two blockchains so they they've specifically

made a position into these tokens because of how on the thesis that like retail just loves cross chain plays and don't they don't understand like how stupid cross chain plays are as an asset to make an investment and so like there there are people out there who are speculating not just on peak like retail just like retailness right. To me that's like a pretty interesting indication

to how how fucking stupid some people are who are about to come into this base. Well before the SEC stopped XRP like that's the only reason it by XRP. Oh yeah it's 100 that's 100% true that's exactly right. So XRP is the token that like that it just you know personifies tokenizes if you will not exactly mentality. So let's talk about like why tokens have like

an intrinsic relationship and not just tokens but now tokens that used to be other L when assets but now it's kind of consolidated into tokens tokens are the meme for like all seasons like all see DeFi season is the new all season because people like tokens. People like investable assets to play with and speculate on and gamble with and then there's certain amount of cognitive dissonance

that people have when they come into this space where they like don't want to admit to themselves or to others that they miss out on Bitcoin because you know we heard about Bitcoin. And now it's 20, 21 and like you know you you still haven't bought any Bitcoin like what the fuck are you doing you've been hearing about it for like almost a decade now never

actually bought it now it's $40,000 like what are you going to do are you going to finally buy Bitcoin or are you going to speculate on a low cap all coin like a DeFi token that could like 10,000 X like what are you going to do you're going you're going to play the DeFi token that the sheatcoin game for sure and that here's the thing is

to a lot of people entering the market they don't understand The Difference really between other cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin. So I would say that a lot of it is just like just not not telling the difference not differentiating so I think The Value of Bitcoin and like a quality asset is something that kind of builds over a lot of that's going to make this up to the

back of kind of builds over time you just see it so You know, there's a learning curve for sure. Yeah plus like There's the reflexivity nature of this industry where like if everyone else is buying tokens and everyone else will be buying tokens, right? Like well now you're buying like XYZ token. So I'll buy XYZ token like it's just like a risk on time of the

cryptocurrency industry and like risk on this is a not Bitcoin. Bitcoin. This is the time when Bitcoin gets outperformed. Well, I mean, yeah, sure. Yes. It's also a very risk on time in the world period. Again, we're talking about the glorification of trading, the gains and volatility in all equity markets. So we're just all risk on right now. And yeah, I mean, there's a lot of

appeal to tokens and Bitcoin and Bitcoin maximalism is kind of kind of a counterintuitive right? It's very counterintuitive to someone who's not like into this into Bitcoin because the world is all about in the fiat realm is all about diversification and spreading your beds and getting into working capital and all this stuff right and then Bitcoin is just like no. Hard money. That's it. 21 million

like no diversification. So it's just like that. That is a is a very different mental model, I think, from what most people have. Yeah, that is there is an interesting like juxtaposition behind like Bitcoin or culture, which is like generally a, you know, conservative, responsible like non ap group of people. Yet Bitcoin itself is branded as like this highly speculative asset that's super volatile that like

if you come into you come into cryptocurrency is like you're risking it all but like Bitcoiners are like the most non riskiest of the of the whole entire industry right? They're taking the least risky asset with the least volatile price movements out of this whole industry. And so like there's a complete flip where like the Bitcoiners are kind of like the risk off people right because

that's what Bitcoin at least except Bitcoin is like the risk off asset. And they that I run the irony of it is it whenever it goes up in price it creates a risk on environment. That's an interesting tension to think about. That's the adoption curve right is the mental model shift between the fiat realm and then the 21 million realm. So yeah, the Bitcoiners already know

that Bitcoin is the safest asset in the world. No one else gets that. Yeah, that's why they're confusing it with other crypto currencies which are a lot more speculative and a lot more volatile. And I mean, that's that's why I think that there's probably a pretty big divide between people who are interested in Ethereum and tokens and people who are like long term interested in Bitcoin

because they do offer very different things. Right. Yeah. And I would say that's a concept that I don't think very many Ethereum's understand them. I mean, if we if we talked about like the risk off nature of Bitcoin, they would probably throw a number of flags flags with that like they would perhaps say well that's just like another narrative. Not actually brought up in in reality.

I don't really know if that's worth going into but they would say either disagree with it or perhaps misinterpret or misunderstand it. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if this is the right time to talk about cognitive dissonance but I think both the coiners and Ethereum's have a lot of cognitive dissonance for each other and like rums that the technology fill. Yeah, it's like I've always

not enjoyed like people's criticisms of other people when they say like, Oh, like that's your bag bias like you're just speaking your bags because like, why would you buy your bags? Against any other like belief system that you don't have like, are you supposed to be buying assets that you don't have those beliefs in because like, how are you supposed to like pitch the value proposition

of your asset without being able to like, quote unquote, speak your bags like, that's why you own it in the first place because you can talk about it. Um, but at the same time, you know, I would say, well, I think the idea of these things is to be very simple and I'm going to say that I think that's the way to talk about it there's

a lot more of them. At the same time, there is 100% well, there's even like maliciousness where like people, people get a bunch of like discounted tokens or just like, you know, shit that they didn't actually work for and there's incentive to like pump something. But other than that, it's just like, some people just identify with certain like, I would say ethereans like something somebody like

anti pro, he would say that like Ethereum or ether is actually the world's most risk off asset because like, ethereum to point out most of the world's most sustainable like blockchain. So they're like I said, there will still be debates, but yeah, generally the camps seem to be have drawn a line between them. Well, I mean, I would say that people like, uh, anti believe that

Ethereum has all of the quench properties and then more. And I would say that. That's pretty far, that's pretty far from the truth. Um, really, they have very different properties and you can see that. That like in the instantiation of the people who are using the assets. So like, I don't think that there's a lot of people who are involved in the Ethereum community that have

the exact same belief structures, anti about Ethereum. But every single person in the Bitcoin ecosystem has the exact same idea of Bitcoin as this incredibly, incredibly safe haven. Like safety and sats is a mantra that is a thing in the Bitcoin community. Um, so like, let's talk about which one actually kind of has those properties, like really, really freaking shining through. I think it's pretty clear.

Yeah, I think it all just boils down to like, how well do you accept that like, there's, there's two main characteristic differences. Bitcoin is a finished project and it all it has to do is continue, right, more or less. Uh, and then Ethereum or or and do you value that and do value how quickly that thing? Because that thing became finished and perpetuating. And totally, like,

outside of the hands of humans. Like, and I mean, that. That is something that's really. I feel like that's a slightly flawed narrative, though. What do you mean? So what part do you, are you specifically pointing to? As like, finished? Uh, yeah, let me clarify. Bitcoin is like, it's a Pandora's box that would's opened. And now it's in the world. And there's no stopping it. Like

Ethereum has a bunch of developers that it needs to take action to happen for Ethereum to continue. Like if all development around Ethereum like stopped, like the thing would probably fall apart at some point in time. Therefore, human interaction needs to come and patch those holes until we can get it to the point where it's also similar to Bitcoin, where the Pandora's box was open. And

now it's just here and something that we have to live with because it perpetuates into the future. Safety and stats stats is talking about how Bitcoin is like, it's something that's unleashed upon the world and now it's here and there's no getting rid of it. Ethereum is not yet there. But the, it's the, whether you're a Bitcoin or an Ethereum is in my mind determined on

like, are you captured by the Bitcoin narrative where like it's already out in the world and it's going to be that way forever. So you might as well, but well, buy some now. Or do you want to follow the path that some people are taking with like, what happens when we research and and do research and development as to how to best improve the thing that

comes out of the Pandora's box when we do open Pandora's box. It'll be the most like gargantuan cool fucking awesome thing. Like when that does happen, what will come out of that box, that's Ethereum. And it's whether you just fall on those two lines of the sand or not, I think is how you end up being a Bitcoin or Ethereum. I mean, I would say your

characterization of like the differences is probably pretty accurate there. I would push back and I would say that there's a, there would probably be a lot of Bitcoin developers that push back and say like, no, dude, if we stopped building on Bitcoin like shit would break like we have to keep perpetuating this thing and sharp it's happening this spear. Really like the way I kind of

like to think about it is like big like, okay, Bitcoin is this spear and these developers are sharpening the tip, making it making it better at being a spear. Whereas Ethereum is like this thing is a weapon and they're literally adding more things onto like they're making it different. They're they're like taking pieces off of it and plugging new pieces into it. It's kind of like

what you discuss is like like it's like, hey, the paper presses is out and now the paper presses are out. The concept of the paper press or the printing presses out, that's like what Bitcoin is. Whereas like Ethereum is like legitimately like they're researching how to make the finest of, you know, whatever. And it's not like necessarily the concept or the idea of like this thing

like I don't know. I don't know if I'm even doing a better job of like adding to what you're saying, but I would generally agree with with your distinction. Yeah. Yeah. But Bitcoin development is constantly happening. It's not like it's like this thing that's like to have a different kind though, right? Yeah. I mean, and to be honest, like the the ability for developers to impact

the protocol is very, very limited compared to Ethereum. And I would say there's bowl. There's a there's very much a bowl case that Bitcoiners would express that comes from that. I would say like to go on your spear analogy instead of where Bitcoiners are sharpening and sharpening the spear. Ethereum is like researching like instead of even building a spear, Ethereum is researching like, all right, how

do we have like carbon fiber technology with like triple folded steel to be extra penetrative? Like they're doing their aren't they're unlocking the tech tree in order to build the best tree. They're not even bought. They're not even bothered actually building that thing yet. That's thing. That's just how I would clarify that. So, okay. So speaking of like cognitive dissidents and like this specific debate, like,

you know, what we just kind of illustrated of the differences, what would you say about like Lynn Alden's take that Bitcoin is a finished product and that Ethereum is an experiment? Because I saw a lot of pushback against that specific thing, you know, kind of in the Twitter dialogue. Yeah. So my I in the open reply that we publish out of bank list, I did a

pretty decent job saying that like, you know, if if Lynn Alden thinks that Ethereum is like this unfinished project that still has a bunch of development to do that maybe will be suitable in the macro conversation in the future, but it isn't yet today. I'm like, sure, okay, fine. There were there were other components about her piece that were straight up wrong, like and just a

mischaracterization. But they were different from her criticisms of like Ethereum is just an unfinished project. This too small for the macro environment, which I totally agree. And I agree about that makes so much sense. Like is we're still developing it. We're still rolling out proof of sake. We're still rolling out shardig blah blah blah blah. Like we're only a hundred sixty billion dollar market cap. And

so by the time if Lynn is ready as a macro investor to sit on her hands and wait for these things to roll out and wait for the market cap of ether to go from a non macro asset into a macro asset, like $160 billion into a trillion dollar asset. Sure, she can wait and and wait for Ethereum to be done when it's got a higher

market cap. And then she can consider it in her macro perspective. Then but that's just a different like what do you want to purchase as an asset? Do you want to purchase the pre finished 160 billion dollar token worth of ether or do you want to finish the finished version of Ethereum that's got the $1 trillion market cap. Like Lynn Alden saying she's preferring the one

with the $1 trillion market cap versus the one with the $160 billion market cap. And we all know in this space that like sometimes when the price of an asset goes up, it makes it even more of an attractive asset to purchase. Well, that's absolutely true for Bitcoin. But I don't know. See, this is where like then you get into the debate of where is Bitcoin

going to be and like what happens with the network effects, right? And does Ethereum and Bitcoins network effects like live together? Are they do they work together or or do they or do they ultimately kind of start to compete? We've seen with other like monies that they, you know, golden silver aren't friends. Like gold kick the shit out of silver. Like gold going up is bad

for silver in the long run. So I don't think we'll see that part of Bitcoin and Ethereum for like 50 years. Maybe. Yeah. But I mean, but the internet rolled out way faster than that. Okay. Sure. Like 25 years. But Bitcoin and Ethereum are built on top of an internet infrastructure that already exists. Like I'm saying by the end of by the end of the 20s,

like we're in a Bitcoin world now. You think the victor between Bitcoin and Ethereum will be decided by the end of the 20s? Well, I think the victor of how we organize ourselves as a society is going to be decided by the end of the 20s. And the next 10 years, we're reorganizing. Sure. But what does that mean about Bitcoin versus Ethereum? It's completely centered on

Bitcoin in my opinion. So what does that mean? Like the average, like instead of Venmo there, when you're denominating your dollars, we're using something else and it's denominated in BTC. Like that's the average transaction between between people like you and me by the end of this decade. Yeah. There's no way that is happening. There's no way. There's no way. 10 years for to swap out the

dollar. Okay. iPhone happened in 2008. When was it you? Bitcoin is. I mean, like we we graduate college in 2015. I didn't have. I didn't have. I had a blackberry up until soft. We're year of college. Yeah. Well, you were very late adopter then. I got an iPhone in high school. Yeah. Yeah. I got my first iPhone five junior year of high of college. Yeah. I

mean, but yeah. By the time iPhone five was out, like bomb had iPhone five. So that's eight years for blackberry. Okay. That's eight years for mobile. Okay. So if you. So now Bitcoin is built on top of the internet and mobile. Like mobile is already. Yeah. But it's also trying to displace it. Like what did the iPhone try and displace? Like not much. Bitcoin is trying

to displace the dollar. That's going to go a little bit fat like slower than the iPhone. The US is displacing itself too. Sure. Hey, you know, again, I think they'll be like the unit and Bitcoin could could still achieve all of your hopes and dreams from a from a from a number go up perspective. Yeah. I'm just really bullish. Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. Do you

have anything else to talk about? We didn't talk about specific tokens. Oh, yeah. You want to talk about specific tokens? Yeah. I mean, like what? Where do you? Yeah. Pump your bags on the show. And if I could just say something about pumping bags. People do talk their book. Like I agree with you that like you can be interested in your bags. That's authentic. But once

you have bags that influence as your brain too. Yeah. So well, so what would you say you've been doing with your bags, your BTC bags on this podcast? Like are you pumping your bags right now? Because you've been like saying, well, I don't know about all these other assets, but I do know about Bitcoin. I put my BTC bags and none of my other bags. That's

fair. That's fair. I'm pretty consistent on that. I do want the DPI token, the DPI D5 pulse index token to like be shield harder because it's of the credible new functionality. And I still think it'll get a pretty decent amount of D5 exposure. It won't get the microcaps. And sometimes the microcaps are like where like all the action is. But like it's still got some pretty

good stuff in there. Like Ava and YFI and Uni. And those are my bags. And so if you buy the D5 pulse index, you're buying my bags by proxy. But yeah, that's kind of where my heads are. It's like whenever one when anyone ever is going to ask me about like what should I do in D5? I'm just going to say like, you know, DPI just

do the DPI. So, just blue chip, chip coins. Yeah. And like that, that'll scratch their itch for like DPI exposure. Yeah, they won't like go like full DGN, like lunacy into chip coins. So, I mean, if someone wanted to go full DGN lunacy, like, how does one even navigate that? So, one of the things I've been considering with my bags lately is to the point where

we're at the point in the market where tokens that have historically like shown that they got what it takes will be the tokens that continue to show that for like the next six months. So like that narrative is there for extremely bullish like link. For example, which is pushing up against all time highs. And I think both Ava and S&X fall into that category. Like, token

tokens that have shown that number goes up. I think are the most fundamental tokens to put in your portfolio because they've shown number to go up. And so they're going to continue to go up because that's what they've done. I think that's the most sound and that's investment analysis I can think of. And so by by reflexivity. Yeah, pure reflex. That's exactly right. So like that

counts out tokens like YFI actually and tokens like MKR, which have gotten kind of like these one of a YFI got twice one or two big pumps. But like there are now like bag holders of YFI, right? This thing is kind of stale. And MKR has been has been flat for three years before it went from 500 to 1500 in like three days. But like that

could be it. Like. And so that token has not shown what it's got. And so like link of a S&X. I think have a shown that they've got what it takes for number to go up. And therefore a number of shall continue to go up. Well, so you're making kind of two distinctions. And I'm going to show the most recent Bitcoin Tina on Bitcoin podcast that

I put out with Bitcoin Tina. Go check that out. The hardest trade. We talk about two scenarios, right? So we talk about three scenarios. And in the macrocosm for Bitcoin, we talk about this cycle, which David has talked about a lot here. And we have referred about. But we also talked about what happens if the cycle breaks this time and Bitcoin just goes straight up into

the right every single year. We also talked about. We would consider to be the hardest trade, which is what if Bitcoin reprices and then it's just flat. So that repricing and then flat, that sounds like MKR and Wi-Fi. The repricing and flat. And then you just got to hold that chop. Like that is so hard and painful. But when it reprices, it's fucking awesome. And I

feel like when like Wi-Fi repriced pretty much zero to like 20K. Like there was a pretty fat dip there. But in dollar terms, it repriced. And it really just went flat from there. That's kind of how I use this as a metaphor to explain bull markets. Like the three years that's not a bull market. Like the whole world has forgotten about crypto. And then like four

years later, the investing class of the world is like, Oh, yeah, there's that whole crypto thing. Let me turn my attention to the cryptocurrency industry. Oh, there's something going on here. Oh, this asset class is undervalued. They start throwing money in there. And then that momentum of people like turning their attention to the cryptocurrency and investing in it sends it through the roof. And then it

goes up and then it crashes. And then people forget about it for three more years because all people can take is just a little bit of crypto. Like, you know, six to nine months of crypto every four years is more than enough for most six to nine months of shit coining of shit coin. And yeah, sure. But like, and then people forget about it for four

years, right. Prices like bleed out for like four years. And then people start to think about for some reason they start to think about crypto against like, Oh, they look, look at the last three to four years of development and they say, Oh, this asset class is undervalued. They in like throw a bunch more money in it. And then we get another bull market and then

the cycle repeats, right. And so like this is just the every four years. What a bull market is is a great repricing. It's a great repricing of the industry. Right. The question I think that you guys are asking on on the hardest trade with the Quantino, which I. Actually fell asleep to listening to last night. It was very cute. Um, is that what happens if the

world doesn't forget about crypto this time. What happens if crypto actually comes into into the mainstream attention and then doesn't leave. Like what happens if people open up an app on their phone every single day and it's a crypto app. Like what at some point, the world isn't going to forget about crypto. And when is that going to happen. And I think it's totally right reasonable

to think that at least especially with Bitcoin, the world could for not forget about Bitcoin now forever. Right. I think that could be a pretty justifiable argument to make. I mean, the macro narrative is completely changed. Like I think Bitcoin today is in the grant in like the general person's perspective is potentially a legitimate asset. Whereas like before 2020, it was for majority of people other

than people who actually dove deep. It was not a legitimate asset. Um, wait, let's talk about a proof of work versus proof of sake and like energy cognitive dissidents. Right. Yeah. Okay. So there's a lot of like we were saying earlier, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance about people not wanting to buy Bitcoin. And we saw this. I think there was like that fun news cycle

where there was like a quote unquote double spend. And then there was like a bunch of other just fun about tether that like, you know, and people like you and I have already dealt with that we knew is just a bunch of eight fudge. But like something that I expect to happen is that a bunch of people will come into this base and like not purchase

BTC on the premise that it's like a dirty, non green asset. Right. And so they'll buy proof of sake assets as a result of that. Because they don't want to help contribute to the energy. And I actually do think that this is like a viable like investment thesis. Like if you think the nation state or just people are just going to come on down on Bitcoin

because of its mining surface area. I think I think that could be a rational thing. To think that Bitcoin will have extra friction as a result of its proof of workness. I can see that happening. Yeah. I mean, I can see the fun happening. I just don't know how effective the fud is going to be as like an investment, like to invest again, or invest in,

right. And why are you investing in the anticipation of fudge versus and fundamentals. Sure. Yeah. And I mean, this, this is something I believe in. And I think that the data shows this, and I think that the trend show this. But Bitcoin and proof of work in particular helps unlock and helps monetize stranded energy. Like this, this is a second pandoraz box that has, that is

just being open right now and just being investigated right now. And it's huge. It's absolutely huge. So it's I think, it's a big punishment. Like there is utility and proof of work, like energy facilities that create energy are significantly more profitable. If they can sell all of their energy, all of the time. Right. They also they they work. You know, you don't even explain it to

me. I believe it 100% of the way. I'm not I'm not trying to explain it to you. I'm trying to explain it to the people on this call who don't believe it. So when people can't consume all of the energy that is being produced, all of the time. Those energy facilities either throw away the energy or they turn off and then lose money because of that.

So that's easier. Either seasonally they turn it off or they actually just shut down like on a daily. So what Bitcoin enables is you can either sell it to the grid. And when you're not selling it to the grid, you can always sell it to Bitcoin. Like that's what that's what you're going to do. That's what this energy arbitrage that Bitcoin opens up. And that is

worth way too much money. That creates so much efficiencies that you can't ignore it. Like the fun is a lie. So how long do you believe the world can operate on a lie? I don't know. Well, I think this would fit into big big big corner thinking because like there's this. There's this is a gap between what Bitcoin is and what Bitcoiners say it is. Right.

And because they because there's extrapolation out into the future. It's a very young industry. We have to extrapolate out into the future. Right now Bitcoin is not clean. I guess not a clean thing. It has perhaps clean and green tailwinds and according to the Bitcoin narrative around waste and energy and consumption with proof of work. It would play out in the long term benefit of the

human race because of just the perpetual forces backing it. But that's in the future. And then there's right now and right now Bitcoin. There is coal mines Bitcoin. Okay. So there are dirty big lines. There's just talk. We have to actually get there. So let's just talk real quick. How much energy is wasted with our current system? How much energy is wasted with our current inefficient

energy infrastructure with our current inefficient practices of turning on and off? How much how much share of our ecosystem? Are we destroying doing that? How are you? So why are we trying to have to explain that to people? That's a good point. I already know that bad. People already know it's bad. How like what if you say we can't have a better system. We can't use

Bitcoin to improve what you are inversely perpetuating the other system. Like Bitcoin enables solar energy to happen. It enables wind energy to happen because it provides that consistent energy needs that are needed to justify building it in the first place without subsidies. Like what essentially what these greenies are saying is, hey, don't do the Bitcoin thing. Let's do the energy. Cream is infrastructure without like a

market incentive. And like let's just force people to do it through, you know, education. Like I'm sorry. Like you're just not going to educate your way to this. You're not going to like people are going to do with economically viable and what makes sense. And Bitcoin lands incentives there. And like there is odd. But I'm just saying like here's a huge problem. Bitcoin is solving it.

So the fun that it's not green is like it's rubbing up against friction. It's like rubbing up against the reality that's proving that that's actually not that it's not the case in that Bitcoin is moving away from this this blackness. So okay, whatever Bitcoin is using bad energy right now because our energy infrastructure is bad right now. Okay. Well, Bitcoin's also the incentive to fix it.

a way better way to do it. Like I'm just saying, let's do that with an opt in system that aligns incentives rather than saying, hey, let's do it with force. Do it with government. I think I think that makes sense. I just don't think that people are going to be convinced by that argument until like you there's actually just real world evidence. Like we need more

green, quote unquote Bitcoin mining facilities. You just need to be actually actually to be able to point to something out in the real world rather than like provide the narrative for the thesis. Because I think right now the position that you and Bitcoiners are in when they try and defend against this proof of work, flood with with these, I think decently well-reasoned arguments that extrapolate out

into the future. You kind of fit our position in the same way that like Ethereum people who had to be convinced that like, yes, we are going to actually deliver Ethereum 2.0. So many people, I feel like that's that same position because like no one's going to give a fuck about what you're saying until like the wall of worry. The wall of worry. You know, that's

a reference like prices, climb a wall of worry. But like there's always a wall of worry between here and like the future trajectory of things. Maybe I was more. I was talking about how like the people that you're arguing again, the Bitcoin industry is arguing against with respect to this energy thing. They're not going to convince any like these people that are that are on the

other side of the argument until they have like real world evidence. They're just going to have to actually. No offense itself. So he has a problem. Yeah. Yeah. So here's the thing is the people were trying to argue against. They're not doing their own research. So they're not going to change their mind until it's economically hurting them, which is what Bitcoin's going to do to them.

So. That's one thing is like I don't think it's an investible thesis to say I'm just going to invest on foot and invest on like continuing to perpetuate foot. So I mean, maybe that's an investible thesis, but I just don't think that's an investible thesis. Sure. I agree. I mean, maybe I'm just slamming my head against that wall. But I mean, like, do you think that

the I don't think that you think that the the environmental potential of negative environmental impact of Bitcoin mining is a reason to go for proof of stake. I think you have a lot of other reasons why you like proof of stake. And I just think that investing against proof of work is that's like investing with foot. It's like investing. There's like, Hey, here's fun. I'm going

to invest on the premise that the foot is going to continue. Yeah. I like, I just don't think that it's a legitimate investible thesis for proof of stake in my opinion. Yeah. I think the energy conversation on Bitcoin is like that to me, the buck stops at like there's nothing to say that Bitcoin doesn't deserve that energy. Like it could be an extremely valuable institution, and

it deserves to be able to consume that much energy. If there's a, I think some the way like some ethereum's were argue is that like, well, if we can do Bitcoin, but without the energy, then we should. Right. Like we have the ability to like, quote unquote, do Bitcoin like stuff without energy. And maybe that's true, but like I still don't think it's worth like rug

pulling the right from Bitcoin to be able to exist in the first place regardless of the energy. Because it's, you know, people are contributing. It's there is individuals. People's choice to add that to the system. And again, I would say we know that I would say that those are their ends. You should outcompete Bitcoin though. Yeah, like you literally have to make something to outcompete Bitcoin.

If you want to, you know, do it better with, with, without the proof of work. Yeah. I would say anyone who's been in the crypto industry for longer than just a couple years, who's still bringing up the FUD. The proof of work, FUD against Bitcoin is is doing it with their bags. Because like, it's just another way to like hammer on Bitcoin. It's like, yes, proof

of, yes, proof of work is consumptive. Like, okay. So at least we have Bitcoin. Yes. I mean, again, I think that it unlocks potential. I think it's a huge plus. But let's talk about like, talk about like your arguments for proof of stake. There are like outside of the belief that Bitcoin just uses a bunch of energy. If you want to use it, you can at

least always put it into proof of stake. Maybe that's not the best comparison. But like, what was Nick Wallace argument? The thing about proof of stake is that it inherently rewards bullishness. Right. So if you have ether, it rewards the most bullish ETH holders most of all. Right. So like, amount of reward that you get is proportional to how bullish ETH you are. And so like,

what do ETH bulls want the most? other than more ether. Right. And so it doesn't matter how like, if you're just a little bit or a lot bullish on ether on ether, the most bullish people will always put in ether into proof of stake because they are rewarded with ether. And these people are the people that are intrinsically holders. They don't want to sell. They want

to hold because that's who they are. They're holders are ETH holding stakers. And so the the ETH that they're getting from this proof of stake system isn't leaving their pockets because they're holders because that's who they are. And so that's just inherently bullish because a, there's extremely low inflation for the narrative, right? Like, in proof of stake Ethereum, there's less than 1% issuance. And then there's

even less than that after we start deleting some with EIP 1559. So there's basically no new flows of ether into the free flow. Right. And so that's inherently a bullish phenomenon. Yeah. I mean, I think like I could pick about a bunch of things that I think would make that not very competitive for money. But that doesn't necessarily make it not bullish. Sure. Yeah. So like

Bitcoin, Bitcoin miners, they got to sell Bitcoin, right? They are, they are net sellers of Bitcoin because the, you know, W is a coin distribution system. POS is not exactly. And that's that's bullish. That's just bullish. It's actually a coin sucking system. Yeah. But, but, but, I feel like that doesn't make, like that makes it less competitive for money, as well as EIP 1559. What's the

argument there? Because it's not neutral or not fair? Well, the, the fair distribution of money is really freaking important. And like making shirts dispersed as well as easily, you know, kind of capturable and, and, and, you know, I guess in some way fairly, you know, you know, createable. Um, mm-hmm. I, that's, that's a, that's a telekazic. That's important. This, that's a telekazic. A blog post about

his concern, because this is one of his big concerns about proof of stake is that, well, it actually doesn't spread out the capital. It actually just kind of centralizes it. And his rationale for why this was okay is that the, the, the compounding rewards to proof of stake are so slow in eth terms that if you ever want to be able to cash in on your

ether and actually like live a luxurious life because of the ether that you have compounding, you actually have to sell more than you can compound. Because specifically, that interest rate is somewhere between like two to six percent for eth in eth terms at maturity. Like people are going to be selling over the, over the length of their lives are going to be selling more than they

are going to be accumulating, right? Um, and so that the, he thinks that the returns on capital are so low that you actually don't get that centralization of assets. That was his client counter argument. I find it relatively compelling. Although, like again, like where's, in terms of like that thesis for Ethereum as money, like, okay, and then like is money only like, can you break money

into different parts? Can like money just be a store of value? Like, I think there's a lot of examples of stores of value that aren't money. So not to say that if Ethereum is not money or it's not the thing that we did nominate the world and doesn't capture that market that. ETH can't be a store of value that proof of stake, ETH can't be a

bullish investment. I'm just kind of, you know, in terms of like money, you want it to be very, very fairly distributed and like the least centralized as possible. Um, in terms of like EIP 1559, um, the destruction of money, that changes the stock to flow in a negative direction. So it destroys stock, um, while flow is kind of consistent. Um, so like, if you look at

copper silver, um, lesser metals from a monetary market, um, and then you can see that the stock is going to be a lot of money. And I guess, you know, theoretically EIP, theoretically, you know, in this perfect world, Ethereum is always, you know, deflating in the amount of currency out there. But that's also not set in stone. That's just theoretically, if all the game theory works

out. Um, well, there should be some people, I mean, will liberate in between the issuance and the, in the deletion. So that one should never be able to outstrip the other over the long term. Yeah. I guess, you know, and I just don't know. Like these are just kind of criticisms. I've brought out that like just it makes it either questionable or less good of a

money from like a monetary perspective than Bitcoin. Um, I think though that's why that's kind of why I'm just pushing back there. I think we should strike the word money from all the conversations and we should never, ever use the word money again because money is such a subjective term. And when you say, well, I don't think it's money, like you could mean something totally different

than like almost anyone else that's using the term money. Money is pretty undefined. And so I think if we, if, no, money is the universal value measuring system. Money is like something that is money is the riskless asset. Okay. Anything about this more. But what, what I would meant to say is that when people say like, oh, ethos money or BTC is money, when it's trying

to be the thing that it is, it kind of manifests itself differently with every sort of medium. Like the US dollars also money, rise stones or also money, all these money's are different. And I think when the US dollars, the most money thing, when people say like, oh, like ethos money, what they're really intentionally saying is like, oh, I'm on team eth or saying like, oh,

BTC is money, they're saying like, oh, I'm on team BTC. I don't find money to be an inherently like dependable word, semantically to be able to debate about. Yeah. No. So I think that this is like etharians throw around the word money loosely. And Bitcoiners mean it very expressly, which is why, yeah, with intent. Okay. Well, let's get the big corner definition of money. And then

let's wrap this up. It's divisibility, identifiability, such verifiability, salability across time and space. And then I mean, they would say that the ability to protect you against inflation is a extremely competitive aspect of it. And they would argue that from a unit of account perspective, as well as preventing protecting you against inflation, the money one million is the perfect. So, I mean, that's the Bitcoin definition,

express definition of money. I mean, I'm sure that etharians would say, Bitcoin's not sustainable. Inflation will have to be implemented. That's a theory in my perspective. But ultimately, like, you know, that's why they would say, Bitcoin's the best money. And that's our definition for money. It's a very clear thing. And they would say that money is absolute. That has dominant network effects. Like, okay, hey, there's

all these fiat currencies. But if you look at contracts that are denominated, it's like 95% USD. So it's like, yeah, all these fios exist. But when it comes to like what really matters, it comes to like, you know, the commerce that's happening across the globe, 95% USD. I think that explanation for Bitcoin also fits the whole Bitcoin is gold 2.0 narrative. Because like, all of gold

strengths are just, are what that was to me. And but also just it's way better with Bitcoin. Right. I feel like that's that's kind of where the Bitcoin gold 2.0. If you really want to get into like the depths of what that means, it's no, it's not just like the new version of gold. It's it's gold with all of its positive characteristics, but even better. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, that's the gold 2.0 narrative. Cool. Whether that makes it money or not, I do not know. So, I mean, what's your definition of like, I mean, like, okay, ethereum's virtue signal saying ethos money is saying that means I'm on tm. I think that ethereum can replace the BTC as the de facto reserve currency of crypto. That's what they mean when they say ethos

money. But like, what do they really like believe? You never count things like that. I think that's what I mean. I think that the whole ethos money thing, the, you know, yay team ethos is maybe that's what some cohort of people are are doing. What the whole ethos money thing was really trying to get a plant of flag on is that ethos actually valuable and necessarily

so. Right. And and also defy will use it in the same way kind of Bitcoin is used in the legacy world as collateral. Right. ETH and the value locked in eth is valuable and is one of its best characteristics and the east therefore ethos money. It was trying to like slap around the one it was literally one half of the ethereum ecosystem trying to slap around

the other half of the ethereum ecosystem, which the other half was like, you know, let's not talk about price. That's not talk about, you know, the money in this of these things. Let's just talk about building. And then the other people are like, no, like, eth is valuable. We need to like make a meme about this to say that. And so the ethos money meme is

born. I don't really like to say ethos money because I think it's just like overly reductive. I can in my article, ethoship point asset. I talked about how ethos is a new model for money. Like it's going to reinvent what we understand money to be. And whatever it is, it's going to be whatever. I could include Bitcoin in this Bitcoin is a money and ether is

a money. And these are kind of the coolest newest monies on the block. There are two monies. Yeah. I mean, because if you want to do anything on Ethereum, you can't get away from ether. You have to use it every step of the way every single time. So like if Ethereum actually does come to be the economy. And the same way Bitcoin wants to become gold

2.0 and also the unit of account, everyone's going to need to put ether on their balance sheet. Yeah. I mean, I just don't know if ether is going to become the economy or how finance is going to play into the future. But that is for another POV crypto podcast. This was a very wide ranging one. It was almost like two podcasts just because we had the

breakup for our internet cut out. Yes, indeed. Sure. That's the wrap up. Cool. All right, you guys. You can follow the podcast at POV crypto pod. You can follow me at Trustless Day, both on Twitter and on Bankless. Christian, you guys can follow me at CK underscore snarks piece. I know. Oh, will you just the same thing. Tell me about the same thing. Strength Time to

prepare for your resurrection Time to prepare for your resurrection Time to prepare for your resurrection Time to prepare for your resurrection