Bull Market Mentality

Welcome everyone to POV crypto the only podcast that both Bitcoiners and Ethereum is listening to I'm David Hoffman here with my buddy Christian Christian How you doing? Doing good men. It is a good day Yeah, how about you? It's a good day to be in the bull market something I was talking to Ryan about recently and some other people is that like you know the cycles

go and sign you saw it waves right it's a cycle and we're at one point in the cycle but the cycles aren't like uniform or choppy like like the time is different and so like the bull market part of these crypto cycles is very like sharpened pronounced but overall is it's compressed in time and then those bear market and all the other things that aren't the

bull market actually take up the majority of people's time so it's probably time to reflect on how we're lucky to be in a bull market like there's not that many instances of bull markets and we're in one right now and so we should all appreciate that because it's going to be over before we know it. Yeah, for sure and with that being said like the bear

market does have a lot of benefits right like a lot, lot less noise. That's what the bear market is about like the bear market. There's so little noise that all you can do is argue which is I mean some of it can be annoying but a lot of it like really sharpened your knife and sharpened your arguments and makes you makes you better like that's the

kind of discourse that for me made Twitter so interesting the last few years. Now it's a very different vibe. Absolutely. Yeah, what's nice about bear markets is that everyone in the bear market is obviously in it for the long-term game right. There are long-term players in bear markets by definition because who else would be in the industry during a bear market other than somebody who knows

that they can stick through it for you know better times in the future and playing long-term games. However, everyone gets to have their first shot at playing the game and that's what bull markets are all about. Yeah, I mean and with that being said like both you and I got pulled in during a bull market. Most people get pulled in into bull markets the years that

you know often come up or 2013 2017. I think 2021 is going to be a big year for a lot of people and their first experience with Bitcoin and crypto. So very exciting about the same time like how do you how do you go from like thinking about the bear market or not even understanding what the bear market is like. And crypto at all too like

now I'm in a Bitcoin bull market and like all of this stuff is happening so much stuff is happening so much noise is everywhere. Like how do you come to understand what's true. Yeah, I mean in like here's the thing like hard liners who have been in it for a long time like there are a lot of them like they maybe get through the bull market

and it's great or whatever but a lot of them don't maximize what they could have gotten out of it right. Like there's a lot of like. In terms of like this huge opportunity to make a lot of money like I feel like there's a very specific type of mentality. Yeah, I'm reminded of Daniel Connommons thinking fast and slow where you know he promotes like not not

being impulsive basically right and like thinking through your decisions and really really rationalizing about it. And I guess that's not really like smart advice like duh. But just I think impulse control. And being mainly being zen I would say the main difference between who I am as a person in 2021 versus 2017 is I've committed more time to practicing like just mindfulness and just being aware

of myself. And I think that as a skill is perhaps more to the best features you could bring into a bull market whereby definition like everything is so emotionally driven. Like when when tokens in Bitcoin and ether are painting all time high after all time high. Like like we said before. And then like like I've been saying on the bankless pod like refund fundamentals are out

and there's only reflexivity and what reflexivity is is mainly emotions right and so if your emotions are out of whack like you're probably not going to make it fam like you got to get your emotions like in a line you have to you have to make slower trades you have to be more patient about things and like. I want to bring this up I'm sure you

saw Ivan's ever spec the pump video. Yeah, so so it was all about. Respecting the pump like letting the pump come into your life. If you if you see a token pumping that's not yours and you don't have that token. You don't like feel jealousy of that pump. You say like congratulations to those bag holders. Congratulations. You guys got your pump. And if you give out

that that good vibes you will get those good vibes in return like in turn you will receive the pump if you are just patient. And I feel like that's like you can either chase the pump or you can have or you can let the pump come to you and like that it's kind of a nice to wait to like read yourself off of the photo if

you think in that way just like you know be patient and like accept the pump into your life. And eventually the pump will come to you and give you its blessings. There's a very easy way to continuously get the pump and that is just DCA into really good assets. So obviously I think that that is you should be DCing into Bitcoin. It's up to you if

you want to DCA to either any other crypto thing. But in terms of respecting the pump and and. And optimizing FOMO building a position you know I don't I'm not a trader like a lot of traders will say you should ape into stuff. But I mean unless like it is truly that kind of action. Like I I just feel like you should make a decision. I

like this thing for whatever reason. Hopefully it has a lot of signs of a quality asset that you want to hold for a long long period of time and you have confidence and conviction in it and build a position. And before you. You know it you feel like you have these positions and these pumps are happening and you're like oh I'm good I got it. I

have a position. You don't even really care about your entry price that much because it was by definition just lower than it is now. So it doesn't matter. Yeah. No that's exactly right. I was talking I was talking to my sister this morning and I was telling her I'm writing this like this opening market Monday note for for the bankless newsletter and I talk about some

of these dynamics. But and I realized there's something about. There's some markets that are inherently not not intuitive to people coming into this space which is like. I mean maybe maybe your plan is different but like I plan on quote unquote trying to sell the top right like I plan on trying to sell the top so that I can buy the bottom and I'm not saying

like 100% of my assets but like it's pretty substantial amount. I probably over 50% of my crypto assets, I'll sell try and sell at the top and the whole intentions of that is so that I can buy more at the bottom like if we know these cycles work in cycles. Then that seems like a relatively acceptable trade to make that's rational. And that's something that people

aren't ready or like aren't equipped to understand about because like people like my sister, which is where this conversation came about, she's like an S N P 401 K investor, right? Like time in the market beats timing the market blah blah blah blah blah we've all heard it a thousand times before. But people aren't equipped to like try and actually think of this crypto movement in

cycles like I remember in 2017 I was like. There is no there is no bear market after this like this is this is it this is it into the future. And so I'll never have to sell and that was a mistake. And so like this time I'm thinking about selling the top to buy back the bottom. And I don't think most most people most retail people

aren't equipped to come into this market understanding that strategy. Yeah. I mean so this is where I think there needs to be a significant distinction in your bags. At least for me. And to be honest if your sister is the kind of person that is like DCA into her dollar cost average into her 401k position, which is all highly diversified index funds. She shouldn't fucking touch

tokens. She just should not. She could DC into Bitcoin. And I mean she knows you. So DC into Ethereum too. Like. I think there's been interest on buying anything. She's just happened to call. But yet so like but if she like if someone like her is trying to get into crypto in Bitcoin. Like. Don't fucking touch any token because of course she's not going to have

the mentality. Ben with any any of the prerequisites to properly time a market unless you are literally doing it for her, which is a different situation. So she should just build a position in Bitcoin and Ethereum. I would say never stop DCing. Just. Literally put whatever amount of money like imagine a hamburger. Okay. How much is that cost or imagine a meal that is like you

would easily get that for lunch without flinching. Take that amount DCA DCA a weekly amount into Bitcoin. Ethereum. And then never stop. Yeah. See the problem with that. That's how that is how 99% people should be dealing with with these things. The problem with that though is like people want to play the token game. Right. Like no one no one wants to come up with a

moment to the world of cryptos and like not play with tokens. Like you're gonna have to scratch that it's somewhere. Yeah. Well, I mean that's the the world is speculating on stuff a lot more right now because that's the incentive like the asset there, caches trash. They see all the volatility and upside in and some everyone it's so sexy to be a trader like tick tock

investor and all of his stuff like. I'm a trader I'm just going to pick stuff. Just like disgustingly glorified. It's so glorified right now and it's the path to being wrecked unless you know what you're doing. So like for example David and I and I would guess a majority of the people that are listening especially long time listeners of POV crypto know what they're doing. They've

been here for the bear market. This is a bear market podcast. Podcast didn't exist in a bear market before this. Retail isn't listening to POV crypto straight ups. Season one is the bear market POV season two which is right now episode three is bull market POV. So this is season two and we're we are as a cohort of now long time crypto holders and participants are

you know we are exploring the bear market the bull market and we're going to talk about how to optimize on some of this stuff. But if you're new to this like don't you know what I'm saying. Don't hurt yourself. You're going to get wrecked. There's a lot of people who know a lot more than you. One of my one of my friends is making plays into

like cross chain tokens. So tokens that are representative of like cross chain assets. So like rent would be one of these tokens or like what's the other one. Boring, boring dow boring like a boring tunnel like between two between two blushes. So they specifically made a position into these tokens because of how on the thesis that like retail just loves cross chain plays and don't they

don't understand like how stupid cross chain plays are as an asset to make an investment. And. And so like there are people out there who are speculating not just on peak like retail. Just like retailness right to that. To me that's like a pretty interesting indication to how how fucking stupid some people are who are about to come into this base. Well before the SEC stopped

XRP like that's the only reason it by XRP. Oh yeah 100 that's 100% true. That's exactly right. XRP is the token that like that it just you know personifies tokenizes if you will. That exact mentality. So let's talk about like why. To tokens have like an intrinsic relationship and not just tokens, but now tokens that used to be other L when assets, but now it's kind

of consolidated into tokens. Tokens are the meme for like all seasons like all see D five season is the new alt season because people like tokens. People like investable assets to play with and speculate on and gamble with. And then there's certain amount of cognitive dissonance that people have when they come into this base where they like don't want to admit to themselves or to others

that they missed out on Bitcoin because you know we heard about Bitcoin in 2013. And then we all heard about Bitcoin again in 2017. And now it's 2021 and like you know you you still haven't bought any Bitcoin like what the fuck are you doing you've been hearing about it for like almost a decade now. Never. Actually bought it now it's $40,000 like what are you

going to do are you going to finally buy Bitcoin or are you going to speculate on a low cap all coin like a D five token that could like 10,000 X like what are you going to do you're going you're going to play the the D five token the the shit coin game for sure. And here's the thing is to a lot of people entering the

market. They don't understand the difference really between other cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin. So I would say that's the thing. That a lot of it is just like just not not telling the difference not differentiating. So I think the value of Bitcoin and a like a quality asset is something that kind of builds over time you just see it. So you know there's there's a learning curve for

sure. Yeah plus like there's the reflexivity nature of this industry where like if everyone else is buying tokens and everyone else will be buying tokens right like well all the time. Now you're buying like XYZ token. So I'll buy XYZ token like it's just like a risk on time of the cryptocurrency industry and like risk on this is a not Bitcoin. This is the time Bitcoin

gets out performed. Well, I mean, yeah, sure. Yes. It's also a very risk on time in the world period. Again, we're talking about the glorification of trading the gains and volatility in all equity markets. So we're just all. All risk on right now. And yeah, I mean, there's a lot of appeal to tokens and Bitcoin and Bitcoin maximalism is kind of counterintuitive. Right. It's very counterintuitive

to someone who's not like into this into Bitcoin. Because the world is all about in the fiat realm is all about diversification and spreading your beds and getting into working capital and all this stuff. Right. And then Bitcoin is just like no. Hard money. That's it. 21 million like no diversification. So it's just like that. That is a is a very different mental model, I think,

from what most people have. Yeah, that is there is an interesting like juxtaposition behind like Bitcoin or culture, which is like generally a, you know, conservative, responsible like non AP group of people. Yet Bitcoin itself is branded as like this highly spitting. speculative asset that's super volatile that like if you come into if you come into cryptocurrencies like you're risking it all, but like Bitcoiners are

like the most non riskiest of people. They're the most non riskiest of the of the of the whole entire industry. Right. They're taking the least risky asset with the least volatile price movements out of this whole industry. And so like there's a complete flip where like the Bitcoiners are kind of like the the risk off people, right. Because that's that's what Bitcoin least except Bitcoin. Except

Bitcoin is like the risk off asset and the ironic the irony of it is it when it ever goes up in price, it creates a risk on environment. That's an interesting tension to think about. Yeah, I mean, I just think that right now there's just it's a mental model shift that the world is having and that mental model shift is that's like that's the adoption curve,

right. Is the mental model shift between the fiat realm and then the 21 million realm. So I think that's the know. Yeah, the Bitcoiners already know that Bitcoin is the safest asset in the world. No one else gets that. Yeah, that's why they're confusing it with other crypto currencies, which are a lot more speculative and a lot more volatile. And I mean, that's that's why I

think that there's probably a pretty big divide between people who are interested in Ethereum and tokens and people who are like long term interested in Bitcoin because they do offer very different things. Right. Yeah. And I would say that's a concept that I don't think very many Ethereum's understand them. I mean, if we if we talked about like the risk off nature of Bitcoin, they would

probably throw a number of flags flags with that. Like they would perhaps say, well, that's just like another narrative. That's perhaps not not actually brought up in in reality. I don't really know if that's worth going into, but they would say either disagree with it or perhaps misinterpret or misunderstand it. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if this is the right time to talk about cognitive

dissidents, but I think the coiners and the theory is have a lot of cognitive dissidents for each other and like rums that the technology fill. Yeah, it's like I've always not enjoyed like people's criticisms of other people when they say like, oh, like that's your bag bias, like you're just speaking your bags. Because like, why would you buy your bags against any other like belief system

that you don't have? Like are you supposed to be buying assets that you don't have those beliefs in because like how are you supposed to like pitch the value proposition of your asset without being able to quote unquote speak your bags? Like that's why you own it in the first place because you can talk about it. But at the same time, there is 100%. Well, there's

even like maliciousness where like people, people get a bunch of like discounted tokens or just like, you know, shit that they didn't actually work for and there's incentive to like pump something. But other than that, it's just like some people just identify with certain like I would say ethereans like something somebody like anti-pro he would say that like etherea or ether is actually the world's most

risk off asset because like ethere in tiponio is the most the world's most sustainable like blockchain. And it's supposed to be like infinitely like persistent. So they're like I said, there will still be debates. But yeah, generally, the camps seem to be have drawn a line between them. Well, I mean, I would say that people like anti believe that Ethereum has all of the quench properties

and then more. And I would say that that's pretty far. That's pretty far from the truth. Really, they have very different properties. And you can see that in like, like in the instantiation of the people who are using the assets. So like, I don't think that there's a lot of people who are involved in the Ethereum community that have the exact same belief structures. Anti about

Ethereum. But every single person in the Bitcoin ecosystem has the exact same idea of Bitcoin as this incredibly incredibly. Safe haven like safety and sats is a mantra that is a thing in the Bitcoin community. So like let's talk about which one actually kind of has those properties like really, really freaking shining through. I think it's pretty clear. Yeah, I think it all just boils down

to like how well do you accept that like there's there's two main characteristic differences Bitcoin is a finished project and it all it has to do is continue right more or less. And then Ethereum or or and do you value that and do value how quickly that thing became finished and perpetuating and totally like outside of the hands of humans like and I mean that is

something that is really. I feel like that's a slightly flawed narrative though. What do you mean? So like what part do you are you specifically pointing to as like finished. Yeah, let me clarify Bitcoin is like it's a Pandora's box that was opened and now it's in the world and there's no stopping. Like Ethereum has a bunch of developers that it needs to take action to

happen for Ethereum to continue. Like if all development around Ethereum like stopped like the thing would probably fall apart at some point in time. Therefore human interaction needs to come and patch those holes until we can get it to the point where it's also similar to Bitcoin where the Pandora's box was open and now it's just here and something that we have to live with because

it perpetuates into the future. It was safety and stats stats is talking about how Bitcoin is like it's something that's unleashed upon the world and now it's here and there's no getting rid of it. Ethereum is not yet there but the it's the whether you're a Bitcoin or an Ethereum is in my mind determined on like are you captured by the Bitcoin narrative where like it's

already out in the world and it's going to be that way forever. So you might as well but well buy some now. Or do you want to follow the path that some people are taking with like what happens when we research and do research and development as to how to best improve the thing that comes out of the Pandora's box. When we do open Pandora's box

it'll be the most like gargantuan cool fucking awesome thing like when that does happen what will come out of that box. That's Ethereum and it's whether you just fall on those two lines lines of the sand or not. I think is how you end up being in a Bitcoin or Ethereum. I mean I would say your characterization of like the differences is probably pretty accurate there.

I would push back and I would say that there's a there would probably be a lot of Bitcoin developers that push back and say like no, if we stopped building on Bitcoin like shit would break like we have to keep perpetuating this thing and sharpening the spear. Really like the way I kind of like to think about it is like big like OK Bitcoin is the

spear and these developers are sharpening the tip making it making it better at being a spear. Whereas Ethereum is like this thing is a weapon and they're literally adding more things on to like they're making it different. They're they're like taking pieces off of it and plugging new pieces into it. Like what you discuss is like like it's like hey the paper presses is out and

now the concept of the paper press or the printing presses out. That's like what Bitcoin is. Whereas like Ethereum is like legitimately like they're researching how to make the finest of you know whatever and it's not like necessarily the concept or the idea of like this thing like I don't know. I don't know if I'm even doing a better job of like adding to what you're

saying but I would generally agree. With your distinction. Yeah. Yeah. But Bitcoin development is constantly happening. It's not like it's like this thing that's like a different kind though. Right. Yeah. I mean and to be honest like the the ability for developers to impact the protocol is very very limited compared to Ethereum and I would say there's bowl there's a there's very much a bowl case

that Bitcoiners would express that comes from that. I would say like to go on your spear analogy instead of where Bitcoiners are sharpening and sharpening the spear. Ethereum is like researching like instead of even building a spear. Ethereum is researching like all right. How do we have like you know carbon fiber technology with like triple folded steel to be extra penetrative like they're doing their aren't

they're unlocking the tech tree in order to build the best tree. They're not even bought about they're not even bothered actually building that thing yet. That's thing that's how I would clarify that. So. Okay. So speaking of like cognitive dissidents and like this specific debate like you know what we just kind of illustrated of the differences. What would you say about like Lin Alden's take that

Bitcoin is a finished product and that Ethereum is an experiment because I saw a lot of pushback against that specific thing. You know kind of in the Twitter dialogue. Yeah. So my I in the open reply that we publish out of bank list I did a pretty decent job. So I'm saying that like you know if if Lin Alden thinks that Ethereum is like this unfinished

project that still has a bunch of development to do that maybe will be suitable in the macro conversation in the future but it isn't yet today. I'm like sure. Okay. Fine. There were there were other components about her piece that were straight up wrong likes and just a mischaracterization. But though they were different from her criticisms of like Ethereum is just an unfinished project. This too

small for the macro environment which I totally agree and agree about that makes so much sense like is we're still developing it. We're still rolling out proof of sake. We're still rolling out shardig blah blah blah blah like we're only 160 billion dollar market cap. And so by the time if Lin is ready as a macro investor to sit on her hands and wait for these

things to roll out and wait for the market cap of ether to go from a non macro asset into a macro asset like 160 billion dollars into a trillion dollar asset. Sure she can wait and and wait for Ethereum to be done when it's got a higher market cap and then she can consider it in her macro perspective then but. That's just a different like what

do you want to purchase as an asset do you want to purchase the pre finished 160 billion dollar token worth of ether or do you want to finish the finished version of Ethereum that's got the $1 trillion market cap. Like Lynn Alden saying she's preferring the one with the $1 trillion market cap versus the one with the $160 billion market cap and we all know in

this space that like sometimes when the price of an asset goes up it makes it even more of an attractive asset to purchase. Absolutely true for Bitcoin but I don't know see this is where like then you get into the debate of where is Bitcoin going to be and like what happens with the network effects right and does Ethereum and Bitcoin's network effects like live together

or they do they work together or or do they or do they ultimately kind of start to compete. We've seen with other like money. So I think that's the reason that they you know golden silver aren't friends like gold kick the shit out silver like gold going up is bad for silver in the long run so I don't think we'll see that part of Bitcoin in

Ethereum for like 50 years maybe yeah but I mean but the internet rolled out way faster than that. Okay sure 30 years 25 years but Bitcoin in the theory more built on top of an internet infrastructure that already exists. Like I'm I'm sure that's what I'm going to do is I'm going to do that. So I'm just saying by the end of by the end of

the 20s like we're in a Bitcoin world now. You think you think the victor between Bitcoin and Ethereum will be decided by the end of the 20s. Well I think the victor of how we organize ourselves a society is going to be decided by the 20s and the next 10 years we're reorganizing. Sure but what does that mean about Bitcoin versus Ethereum? It's completely centered on

Bitcoin in my opinion. So what does that mean like the average like instead of and Mo there and when you're not giving you dollars we're using something else and it's nominated in BTC like that's the average transaction between between people like you and me by the end of this decade. Yeah. There's no way that it's happening. There's no way there's no way. 10 years for to

swap out the dollar. How okay I phone haven't in 2008 when was it ubiquitous. I don't know. I mean that I have. What like we we we grab that's it. Yeah. I was going to be a lot more than that. I graduated college in 2015. I didn't have I had a blackberry up until sophomore year of college. Yeah. Well you were very late adopter then. I

got an iPhone in high school. Yeah. Yeah. I got my first iPhone 5 junior year of high school of college. Yeah. I mean but yeah by the time iPhone 5 was out like bomb had iPhone 5. So that's eight years for blackberry. Okay. That's eight years for mobile. Okay. So So now bitcoin is built on top of the internet and mobile. Like mobile is already. Yeah

but it's also trying to displace it like like like what did the iPhone trying to displace like not much Bitcoin is trying to displace the dollar that's gonna go a little bit fat like slower than the iPhone. The US is displacing itself too. Sure. Hey you know again I think they'll be like the unit and bitcoin is not the same as the unit. And I think

that's not the same. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the same. Maybe like the unit that you know again I think that's the same. Yeah. Bitcoin could still achieve all of your hopes and dreams from a from a from a number go up perspective. Yeah. I'm just really bullish. Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. Do you have anything else to talk about? We didn't talk about specific tokens.

Oh yeah you want to talk about specific tokens? Yeah. I mean like what are my bags? Yeah. Pump your bags on the show and and if I could just say something about pumping bags people do talk their book like I agree with you that like you can be interested in your bags. I'm not authentic but once you have bags that influences your brain too. Yeah. So

well so what would you say you've been doing with your bags your BTC bags on this podcast? Like are you pumping your bags right now? Because you've been like saying well I don't know about all these other assets but I do know about Bitcoin. I put my BTC bags and none of my other bags. That's fair. That's fair. I'm pretty consistent on that. I do want

the DPI token the DPI D5 pulse index token to like be shield harder. Because it's of the credible neutrality and I still think it'll get a pretty decent amount of DPI exposure. It won't get the microcaps and sometimes the microcaps are like where like all the action is. But like it's still got some pretty good stuff in there like Ave and YFI and Uni and those

are my bags. And so if you buy the D5 pulse index you're buying my bags by proxy. But yeah that's kind of where my heads is like whenever one when anyone ever is going to ask me about like what should I do in D5 I'm just going to say like DPI. So just blue chip. Chitcoins. Yeah. And like that'll scratch their itch for like D5 exposure.

Yeah they won't like go like full DGN like lunacy into shitcoins. So I mean if someone wanted to go full DGN lunacy like how does one even navigate that. So one of one of the things I've been thinking about is what is going to be like DGN lunacy. So what I'm considering with my bags lately is to the point where we're at the point in the

market where tokens that have historically like shown that they got what it takes. To will be the tokens that continue to show that for like the next six months. So like that narrative is there for extremely bullish like link. For example, which is pushing up against all time highs. And I think both Ave and S&X fall into that category. Like tokens that have shown that number

goes up. I think are the most fundamental tokens to put in your portfolio. Because they've shown number to go up. And so they're going to continue to go up because that's what they've done. I think that's the most sound and that's investment analysis I can think of. And so by by reflexivity. Yeah. Pure reflex. That's exactly right. So like that counts out tokens like YFI actually.

And tokens like MKR which have gotten kind of like these one of a YFI got twice one or two big pumps. But like there are now like bag holders of YFI right there. This thing is kind of stale. MKR has been has been flat for three years before it went from 500 to 1500 in like three days. But like that could be it. Like and so

that token has not shown what it what it's got. And so like link Ave S&X. I think have a shown that they've got what it takes for number to go up. And therefore a number shall continue to go up. Well, so you're making kind of two distinctions. And I'm going to show the most recent Bitcoin Tina on Bitcoin podcast that I put out with Bitcoin. Tina

go check that out. The hardest trade we talk about two scenarios. Right. So we talked about three scenarios. And in the macro cosm for Bitcoin. We talk about this cycle which David has talked about a lot here. And we have referred about, but we also talked about what happens if the cycle breaks this time. And Bitcoin. Just go straight up into the right every single year.

We also talked about what we would consider to be the hardest trade, which is what if Bitcoin reprices. So I think we could take a look at what it's going to do. And then it's just flat. So that repricing and then flat, that sounds like MkR and Wi-Fi. The repricing and flat. And then you just got to hold that chop. Like that is so hard and

painful. But when it reprices, it's fucking awesome. And I feel like when like Wi-Fi repriced pretty much zero to like 20k. Like there was a pretty fat dip there. But in dollar terms, it repriced. Mm hmm. Really just went flat from there. That's kind of how I use this as a metaphor to explain bull markets. Like the three years that's not a bull market. Like the

whole world has forgotten about crypto. And then like four years later, the investing class of the world is like, oh yeah, there's that whole crypto thing. Let me turn my attention to the cryptocurrency industry. Oh, there's something going on here. Oh, this asset class is undervalued. They start throwing money in there. And then that momentum of people like turn in there, their attention to the cryptocurrency

and investing in it, sends it through the roof. And then it goes up and then it crashes. And then people forget about it for three more years. Because all people can take is just a little bit of crypto. Like, you know, six to nine months of crypto every four years is more than enough for most six to nine months of shit pointing of shit coin. And

yeah, sure. But like, but and then people forget about it for four years, right. Prices like bleed out for like four years. And then people start to think about for some reason. They start to think about crypto against like, oh, they look, look at the last three to four years of development and they say, oh, this asset class is undervalued. They and like, throw a bunch

more money in it. And then we get another bull market and then the cycle repeats, right. And so like, this is just the every four years, what a bull market is is a great repricing. It's a great repricing of the industry. Right. The question I think that you guys are asking on on the hardest trade with Bitcoin, which I actually fell asleep to listening to last

night. It was very cute. Is that what? What happens if the world doesn't forget about crypto this time? What happens if crypto actually comes into into the mainstream attention and then doesn't leave? Like what happens if people open up an app on their phone every single day and it's a crypto app. Like what at some point, the world isn't going to forget about crypto. And when

is that going to happen? And I think it's totally right reasonable to think that at least especially with Bitcoin, the world could for not forget about Bitcoin now forever. Right. I think that could be a pretty justifiable argument to make. I mean, the macro narrative has completely changed. Like I think Bitcoin today is in the grant in like the general person's perspective is potentially a legitimate

asset. Whereas like before 2020, it was for majority of people other than people who actually dove deep. It was not a legitimate asset. Wait, let's talk about proof of work versus proof of sake and like energy cognitive dissidents. Right. Yeah. Okay. So there's a lot of like we were saying earlier, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance about people not wanting to buy Bitcoin. And we saw

this. I think there was like that fun news cycle where there was like a quote unquote double spend. And then there was like a bunch of other just fun about tether that like, you know, and people like you and I have already dealt with that we knew is just a bunch of eight. But like something that I expect to happen is that a bunch of people

will come into this base and like not purchase BTC on the premise that it's like a dirty, non green asset. Right. And so they'll buy proof of sake assets as a result of that. Because they don't want to help contribute to the energy. And I actually do think that this is like a viable like investment thesis. Like if you think the nation state or just people

are just going to come on down on Bitcoin because of its mining surface area. I think I think that could be a rational thing to think that Bitcoin will have extra friction as a result of its proof of workness. I can see that happening. Yeah. I mean, I can see the fun happening. I just don't know how effective the fun is going to be as an

investment. Like to invest again, invest in, right. And why are you investing in the anticipation of the fun versus and fundamentals? Sure. Yeah. And I mean, this, this is something I believe in. And I think that the data shows this and I think that the trends show this. But Bitcoin and proof of work in particular helps unlock and helps monetize stranded energy. Like this, this is

a second Pandora's box that has, that is just being open right now and just being investigated right now. And it's huge. It's absolutely huge. So it's one of those things that I just took the swallow. I mean, good. I mean, the like there is utility and proof of work. Like energy facilities that create energy are significantly more profitable. If they can sell all of their energy,

all of the time. Right. They also they work. You know, explain it to me. I believe it 100% of the way. I'm not I'm not trying to explain it to you. I'm trying to explain it to you. I'm trying to explain it to you. I'm trying to explain it to you. I'm trying to explain it to the people on this call who don't believe it. So

when people can't consume all of the energy that is being produced all of the time. Those energy facilities either throw away the energy or they turn off and then lose money because of that. So that's easier. Either seasonally, they turn it off or they actually just shut down like on a daily. So what Bitcoin enables is, you can either sell it to the grid. And when

you're not selling it to the grid, you can always sell it to Bitcoin. Like that's what that's what this energy arbitrage that Bitcoin opens up. And that is worth way too much money. That creates so much efficiencies that you can't ignore it. Like the fun is a lie. So how long do you believe the world can operate on a lie? I don't know. I think this

would fit into big big Bitcoin or thinking because like there's this there's this is odd gap between what Bitcoin is and what Bitcoiners say it is, right? And because they because there's extrapolation out into the future. It's a very young industry. We have to extrapolate out into the future. Right now Bitcoin is not clean. I guess not a clean thing. It has perhaps clean and green

tailwinds. And according to the Bitcoin narrative around waste and energy and consumption with proof of work, it would play out in the long-term benefit of the human race because of just the perpetual forces backing it. But that's in the future. And then there's right now and right now Bitcoin there is coal mines Bitcoin. Okay. So let's there are dirty Bitcoin mines. And there's just talk about

that we have to actually get there. So let's just talk real quick. How much energy is wasted with our current system? How much is it? How much energy is wasted with our current inefficient energy infrastructure with our current inefficient practices of turning on and off? How much how much? Sure of our ecosystem. Are we destroying doing that? How are you? So why are we trying to

have to explain that to people? That's a good point. I already know that bad. People already know it's bad. How like what if you say we can't have a better system. We can't use Bitcoin to improve what you are inversely perpetuating. So we're trying to make sure that we're not using the other system. Like Bitcoin enables solar energy to happen. It enables wind energy to happen

because it provides that consistent energy needs that are needed to justify building it in the first place without subsidies. Like what essentially what these greenies are saying is, hey, don't do the Bitcoin thing. Let's do the energy. Greenies infrastructure without like a market incentive. And like let's just force people to do it through, you know, education. Like I'm sorry. Like you're just not going to educate

your way to this. You're not going to like people are going to do with economically viable and what makes sense. And Bitcoin lands incentives there. And like there is a lot. I'm just saying like here's a huge problem. Bitcoin is solving it. So the fact that it's not green is like it's rubbing up against. It's like rubbing up against the reality that's proving that that's actually

not that it's not the case in that Bitcoin is moving away from this this blackness. So okay, whatever Bitcoin is using bad energy right now because our energy infrastructure is bad right now. Okay. Well, Bitcoin's also the incentive to fix it. So I mean, if you're arguing, hey, Bitcoin is just bad right now. Like how do we fix our energy infrastructure? Like how do we improve

that without either sticking guns to people's heads. And saying stop driving those cars, stop building those kind of cars, you know, you have to do it this way more. You can get them to opt in. I think Bitcoin is a way better way to do it. Like I'm just saying, let's do that with an opt in system that aligns incentives rather than saying, hey, let's do

it with force. Do it with government. I think that makes sense. I just don't think that people are going to be convinced by that argument until like you there's actually just real world evidence. Like we need more green quote unquote Bitcoin mining facilities. You just need to be actually actually to be able to point to something out in the real world rather than like provide the

narrative or the thesis. Because I think right now the position that you and Bitcoiners are in when they try and defend against this proof of work flood with with these. I think decently well-reasoned arguments that extrapolate out into the future. You kind of fit our position in the same way that like Ethereum people who had to be convinced that like yes, we are going to actually

deliver Ethereum 2.0. You have the same position. I feel like that's that same position because like no one's going to give a fuck about what you're saying until like the wall of worry. The wall of worry. That's a reference like prices climb a wall of worry. But like there's always a wall of worry between here and like the future trajectory of things. Maybe I was more

talking about how like the people that you're arguing again, the Bitcoin industry is arguing against with respect to this energy thing. They're not going to convince any of these people that are on the other side of the argument until they have like real world evidence. They're just going to have to actually manifest itself away as a problem. Yeah, yeah. So here's the thing is the people

I just don't think that's an investable thesis. Sure. I agree. Maybe I'm just slamming my head against that wall. But I mean like do you think that the I don't think that you think that the the environmental potential negative environmental impacts of Bitcoin mining is a reason to go for proof of stake. I think you have a lot of other reasons why you like proof of

stake. I just think that investing against proof of work is that's like investing with foot. It's like investing is like, Hey, here's fun. I'm going to invest on the premise that the foot is going to continue. Yeah. I like I just don't think that it's a legitimate. Investible thesis for proof of stake in my opinion. Yeah. I think the energy conversation on Bitcoin is like that

to me the buck stops at like a there's nothing to say that Bitcoin doesn't deserve that energy. Like it could be an extremely valuable institution and it deserves to be able to consume that money. So much energy. It was that if there's a that I think some the way like some Ethereum's were arguing is that like, well, if we can do Bitcoin, but without the energy,

then we should, right? Like we have the ability to like, quote unquote, do Bitcoin likes stuff without energy. And maybe that's true, but like I still don't think it's worth like rug pulling the right from Bitcoin to be able to exist in the first place regardless of the energy because it's, you know, people are contributing. It's there is individuals, people's choice to add that to the

system. And again, I would say we know I'll say that those are their ends. You should outcompete Bitcoin though. Yeah. Like you literally have to make something to outcompete Bitcoin. If you want to, you know, do it better with without the proof of work. Yeah. I would say anyone who's been in the crypto industry for longer than just a couple years who's still bringing up the

FUD. The proof of work, FUD against Bitcoin is is doing it with their bags because like it's just another way to like hammer on Bitcoin. Yes, proof of proof of proof of work is consumptive. Like, okay. So at least we have Bitcoin. Yes. I mean, again, I think that it unlocks potential. I think it's a huge plus. But let's talk about like talk about like your

arguments for proof of stake. There are like outside of the belief that Bitcoin just uses a bunch of energy. Sure. So in the same way that like Bitcoin is the last buyer of energy, Ethereum is something similar to with like capital and proof of stake, right? Whatever you want to do with your ask with your capital, you can at least always put it into proof of

stake. Maybe that's not the best comparison. But like, what was Nick Wallace argument? The thing about like proof of stake is that it inherently like rewards bullishness. Right. So if you have ether, it rewards the most bullish ETH holders most of all, right? So like it you the amount of reward that you get is proportional to how bullish ETH you are. And so like what do

ETH balls want the most other than more ether? Right. And so it doesn't matter how like if you're just a little bit or a lot bullish on ether on ether, the most bullish people will always put in ether into proof of stake because they are rewarded with ether. And these people are the people that are intrinsically holders. They don't want to sell. They want to hold

because that's who they are. They're holders are ETH holding stakers. And so the the ETH that they're getting from this proof of stake system isn't leaving their pockets because they're holders because that's who they are. And so that's just inherently bullish because a there's extremely low inflation for the narrative, right? Like in proof of stake Ethereum, there's less than 1% issuance. And then there's even less

than that after we start deleting some with EIP 1559. So there's basically no new flows of ether into the free flow, right? And so that's inherently a bullish phenomenon. Yeah, I mean, I think like I could pick about a bunch of things that I think make that not very competitive for money. But that doesn't necessarily make it not bullish. Sure. Yeah. So like Bitcoin miners, they

got to sell Bitcoin, right? They are they are net sellers of Bitcoin because they're not going to be able to sell it. The OW is a coin distribution system. POS is not exactly. And that's that's bullish. That's just bullish. It's actually a coin sucking system. Yeah, but. But I feel like that doesn't make like that makes it less competitive for money as well as EIP 1559.

What's the argument there because it's not neutral or not fair? Well, the diss the fair distribution of money is really freaking important. And like making shirts dispersed as well as easily, you know, kind of capturable and and and you know, I guess in some way fairly, you know, you know, createable. Um, I that's. That's how it has a blog post about his concern because this is

one of his big concerns about proof of stake is that well, it actually doesn't spread out the capital. It actually just kind of centralizes it. And his rationale for why this was a big concern. So it was okay is that the, the compounding rewards to proof of stake are so slow in eth terms that if you ever want to be able to cash in on your

ether and actually like live a luxurious life because of the ether that you have compounding, you actually have to sell more than you can compound because specifically that interest rate is somewhere between like two to 6% for eth in eth terms at maturity. Like people are going to be selling over the over the length of their lives are going to be selling more than they are.

And so that the he thinks that the returns on capital are so low that you actually don't get that centralization of assets. That was his client counter argument. I find it relatively compelling. I don't know. Like again, like where's in terms of like that thesis for Ethereum as money. Like, okay. And then like is money only like can you break money into different parts? Can like

money just be a store of value? Like I think there's a lot of money. So I think there's a lot of examples of stores of value that aren't money. So not to say that if Ethereum is not money or it's not the thing that we denominate the world and doesn't capture that market that. ETH can't be a store of value that proof of stake. ETH can't

be a bullish investment. I'm just kind of, you know, in terms of like money, you want it to be very, very fairly distributed and like the least centralized as possible. In terms of like EIP 1559. The destruction of money. That's the changes the stock to flow in a negative direction. So it destroys stock while flow is kind of consistent. So like if you look at copper,

silver, lesser metals from a monetary perspective to gold, they all have lower stock to flows than gold. They all have less stock like protecting essentially preventing and preventing the flow. And I guess, you know, theoretically EIP theoretically, you know, in this perfect world, Ethereum is always, you know, deflating in the amount of currency out there. But that's also not set in stone. That's just theoretically, if

all the game theory works out. Well, there should be some people liberate between the issuance and the deletion. So that one should never be able to outstrip the other over the long term. Yeah. I guess, you know, and I just don't know. Like these are just kind of criticisms. I've brought out that like just makes it either questionable or less good of a money from like

a monetary perspective than Bitcoin. I think so. That's why I'm just pushing back there. I think we should strike the word money from all conversation. And we should never ever use the word money again. Because money is such a subjective term. And when you say, well, I don't think it's money, like you could mean something totally different than like almost anyone else that's using the term

money. Money is pretty undefined. And so I think if we, if money is the universal value measuring system, money is something that is money is the riskless asset. Okay. Anything about this more. But what I would meant to say is that when people say like, oh, ethos money or BTC is money, when it's trying to be the thing that it is, it kind of manifests itself

differently with every sort of money. Or medium, like the US dollars, also money, rise stones are also money. All these money's are different. And I think when the US dollars, the most money thing, when, when people say like, Oh, like ethos money, what they're really intentionally saying is like, Oh, I'm on team. Eath or saying like, Oh, BTC is money. They're saying like, Oh, I'm on

team BTC. I don't find money to be an inherently like dependable word, semantically to be able to debate about. Yeah. No. So I think that this is like etharians throw around the world. Like thread, where money loosely and bid corners mean it very expressly. Which is why yeah, with intent. Okay, well, let's get the big corner definition of money. And then I'll start it up. I

mean, it's divisibility. Identifiability, such verifiability, say, loyalty across time and space. And then I mean, it would say that the, the ability to protect you against inflation is extremely competitive. And they would, and they would argue that from a unit of account perspective, as well as preventing protecting you against inflation. 21 million is the perfect. So, I mean, that that's the Bitcoin definition express definition of

money. I mean, I'm sure that a theory is, would say. Bitcoin is not sustainable. Inflation will have to be implemented. That's a theory in my perspective. But I think that's a theory. Ultimately, like, you know, that's why they would say Bitcoin is the best money. And that's our definition for money. It's a very clear thing. And they would say that money is absolute something that has

dominant network effects. Okay. Hey, there's all these fiat currencies. But if you look at contracts that are denominated, it's like 95% USD. So it's like, yeah, all these fios exist. But when it comes to like what really matters, it comes to like, you know, the commerce that's happening across the globe, 95% USD. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I think that I think that explanation for Bitcoin also

fits the whole Bitcoin is gold 2.0 narrative. Because like, all of gold strengths are just are what that was to me. And but also just it's way better with Bitcoin. Right. I feel like that's that's kind of where the Bitcoin gold 2.0. If you really want to get into like the depths of what that means is no, it's not just like the new version of gold.

It's it's gold with all of its positive characteristics, but even better. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's the gold 2.0 narrative. Cool. Whether that makes it money or not, I do not know. So I mean, what's your definition of like, I mean, like, okay, Ethereum's virtue signal saying ethos money, saying that means I'm on Tmeath. I think that Ethereum can replace the BTC as the de facto

reserve currency of crypto. That's what they mean when they say ethos money. But like, what do they really like believe? You never count things like that. I think that's what they mean when they say ethos money. But like, what do they really like believe? You never count things like that. I think that the whole ethos money thing, the, you know, yay team ethos is maybe that's

what some cohort of people are are doing. What the whole ethos money thing was really trying to get a plant of flag on is that ethos actually valuable and necessarily so. Right. And and also defy will use it in the same way kind of Bitcoin is used in the legacy world as collateral. Right. ETH and the value locked in eth is valuable and is one of

its best characteristics and the east therefore ethos money. It was trying to be a real deal. Trying to like slap around the one it was literally one half of the Ethereum ecosystem trying to slap around the other half of the Ethereum ecosystem, which the other half was like, you know, let's not talk about price. That's not talk about, you know, the money and this of these

things. Let's just talk about building. And then the other people are like, no, like, eth is valuable. We need to like make a meme about this to say that. And so the ethos money meme is born. I don't really like to say ethos money because I think it's just like overly reductive. I can in my article, ethoship a point asset. I talked about how ethos new

model for money like it's going to reinvent what we understand money to be. And whatever it is, it's going to be whatever. I could include Bitcoin in this Bitcoin is a money and ether is a money. And these are kind of the coolest newest monies on the block. There are two monies. Yeah. I mean, because if you want to do anything on Ethereum, you can't get

away from ether. You have to use it every step of the way every single time. So like if Ethereum actually does come to be the economy. And then I think that's the thing that I'm going to do. The same way Bitcoin wants to become gold 2.0 and also the unit of account. Everyone's going to need to put ether on their balance sheet. Yeah. I mean, I

just don't know if ether is going to become the economy or how finance is going to play into the future. But that is for another POV crypto podcast. This was a very wide ranging one. It was almost like two podcasts just because we had the break up for our internet cut out. Yes, indeed. Should I wrap this up? Yep. I'm going to wrap up. Cool. All

right, you guys. You can follow the podcast at POV CryptoPod. You can follow me at TrustlessDate, both on Twitter and on Bankless. Christian, you guys can follow me at CK underscore Snarks piece. Yeah. You