BTC VS ETH in a BULL on Twitter Spaces.

In a blue glow In a blue glow, driving the back of your mind. Oh, what's that? Long time no talk, man. How's it going? Long time no talk. Have we started? It's just the start. It's live, but let's definitely make small talk. All right, small talk for a start later. Okay, yes. Thank you very much. Thank you for managing the hosting of this. New York was

absolutely fantastic. Probably one of the best crypto trips I've ever gone on. And I didn't actually go to a single NFC NYC event at all. It was just like hanging out with the homies at the peripheral events. Bitcoin 2021. People were talking to me like, oh, this is a great thing. I love conferences. I want to go to all the conferences. What conference are you going

to next? And then apparently enough people said the answer to that question was NFT NYC. So people would be going, oh, and they would just pass it along. They would go, oh, are you going to NFT NYC? Are you going to NFT NYC? And apparently like it kind of got started there as like the meme of the next big crypto conference that people were going to

go to. And so it just absolutely blew the fuck up. And like we just would like 10 times more people went to and went to the actual. I don't know. I don't know. But I mean, the whole thing just got kept on scaling up and up and up. And then there were a hell of people like me that went anyways without actually intending I'm going to

the conference itself. Cool. You buy it? Yeah, yeah, I did. The last Friday I was there. I went to an NFT, an in real life NFT show. And I met this guy who had some art there. And I was just walking around all the edit. A lot of the, it was like projectors and LED displays upon a wall. So each kind of piece of art was

displayed differently. And there was on this big, big LED screen TV basically, I guess there was this like almost like 30 minutes of footage that this guy had taken using a drone. And he would take that footage and put it through like this AI. Like this algorithm basically to take the footage and like make it like neater. And it just made it very looking very surreal,

very like watercolor like. But under the process of like an algorithm, right? So it was like one one part drone footage, one part like watercolor like algorithm. And he had a series of eight of them. And that's why they watched that's why there was like almost 30 minutes of footage. And I bought all of them about every single one. And so we were actually just going

through the minting process today with this team called manifold. And the cool thing about manifold is that you'd actually don't have to trust them about the minting process. They put the contracts on the theory. And then they put the data on our weave. And so it's like a, it's like a stateless NFT minting platform. And so we just, it's the whole actually the whole process of

learning how to actually like minted mint something that you really, really care about rather than buying some like stupid, stupid JPEG on OpenC and actually like giving a fuck about the art and like learning how to actually like manage with a process of the whole thing is actually was a really interesting process. So nice learning moment. The, the, it's always so interesting seeing how quickly the

fads and the theorem go. You know, first it's like art like people and then it's like stuff works like an algorithm that prints something and puts it on OpenC. And now that's just like stupid stuff. And now you need to buy real art and mint it like I would not call that a fad. No, I would not call that a fad. That's not a fad. I

think I feel like the NFT thing like I get why, you know, unique hatches on the blockchain could be a useful thing. But I think the whole, I think it's a pretty big bubble right now. Yes, it's very, very, it's very priced in, I would say that. Fat implies that this, that it's not an innovation. Fat implies that we didn't discover something. And that is in

my mind that is fundamentally wrong. I will grant that like, yeah, there are this like, there's this movement of capital and attention from like use case to use case. Like first it was profile picture NFTs. Then it went to like generative R NFTs. And now it's going to like maybe one of one NFTs. But I actually wouldn't even get into that it's even doing that because

all the all the profile punk or like crypto punk cool cast all the profile picture NFTs have like held their weight in either terms of price. And then a lot of artists have recently just got a lot of revenue making one of one art NFTs. And our blocks are still continuing to do well. Like I wouldn't call it a fad at all. We're just kind of

like figuring out all these use cases. And yeah, the attention is like rotating at a very rapid pace. But like the so far the the economics sustainability is definitely there. Whether that holds out for a long, the long term is another story. But for now like a lot of creativity is happening. And you throw around the word economic sustainability pretty lightly. Well, you don't use it

enough. All right, what do we got on the agenda? We I think we warmed up the room a little bit. Yeah, okay. So it's it's been a long time since we've talked and I'm actually kind of think that that's emblematic of this bull market at large. Yeah, one of the one of the things that was like June. Yeah. And yeah, it's definitely definitely a minute. Holy

shit. And like it was back in the bear market the 2018 to 2020 bear market. Bitcoin or it was basically just Bitcoin or is an ethereum. And that was about it. And that's like when P.O.P. crypto like was that it's what that was at its peak, right? And I think there was a reason for that. As soon as this bull market started, like these communities started

to get a lot of money. And they started growing and they started growing enough to the point where they started like diverging. And like the vent diagram overlap between Bitcoin or Ethereum actually started to get like as a percentage smaller. That's that's my interpretation of the events of the last like year or so. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's an absolute divergence between the crypto

industry and the Bitcoin industry. And you're like seeing like the Bitcoin only industry. And obviously crypto has been doing like the Ethereum native industry has been its own thing for a while. So I mean, I think that that's definitely a fact. Yes, yes. Yeah. So back in 2018, 2019, the crypto industry was just Bitcoin and Ethereum. And then now Bitcoin has like kind of it's definitely

like hitting its. It's really really. I would say siloed away from the rest of crypto because it's optimized in this very, very one specific way. Where on the very, very far end of other ends of the spectrum, we have like these chains like Solana that are picking up that are super duper execution optimized, but not at all economically optimized. And then we have Ethereum that's in

the middle where it's like also fighting the fight of being economically sustainable, but like Bitcoin, but also being a financial system like like. A smart contract system would be based upon. And the argument that Ethereum people would make is that well, because you are actually doing both, you actually get tailwinds on both sides. But that's a that's a long conversation. Yeah, or you get you get

neither benefit because you introduced a political process into into how these things work. Well, no, so what I was talking about was more of a technical implementation of the protocol itself. Whereas I think what you're talking about is just like the nature of Ethereum governance. Sure. I mean, like, I don't know if I agree that Bitcoin siloed. I think the Bitcoin industry, the Bitcoin only community

is like trying to differentiate and be a don't thing and kind of stand on its own. Like, you know, Coin Center was the only advocacy group. Now there's like this push for many advocacy groups, including many Bitcoin only advocacy groups. You know, we're seeing like many Bitcoin only publications. We're seeing this just this emergence of a thriving Bitcoin only industry. And I don't think that like

that is like separate from crypto, but it is differentiating Bitcoin from crypto by creating a Bitcoin only industry. I mean, I think Bitcoin is huge in all of these apps. What's one of the Bitcoin is the sound money app. It's the Bitcoin app. You know, all of these like layers or chains can plug Bitcoin in. So I mean, what's the point? So one of the first

things that they put in is some sort of rap BTC and whatever way is most convenient. Okay. So from what I've gathered in the last year of Ethereum is like on a theorem. No one gives a fuck about WBTC on Ethereum. It's like the Malay, at least interesting asset. And if you want Bitcoin to be sound money, like you, you know that when it's on Ethereum,

it loses all the sound money properties during because you want to transfer it over. You have to trust somebody to actually do that. And what's the merit of a Bitcoin only blank? Like Bitcoin only fund Bitcoin only, like a lobbying groups. Like that's just why is that a good thing? Like why aren't you more inclusive? And like obviously Bitcoiners have always been very exclusive as in

it's like a Bitcoin only culture. But it seems like the biggest criticism of Bitcoin that I've had lately is like when it comes to Bitcoiners advocating for what's the most inclusive thing. What they believe in is they want to advocate for Bitcoin and then they want to like slam the door shut behind them along the way. Like what's the value of that? Yeah. I mean, I

agree in you in the fact that I think that some Bitcoiners are very close-minded to what is good for Bitcoin. I subscribe to the school of thought that everything is good for Bitcoin including Bitcoin chains and other crypto infrastructure. But with that being said, I think that a lot of things that like Coin Center does a lot of good work in my opinion. But with that

being said, they have to advocate for a lot of things that have nothing to do with Bitcoin. And they have to like blank it all crypto together and ask for, for example, they deal with a lot of security regulations around tokens. That really has very little to do with making sure that Bitcoin is good for Bitcoin. Bitcoin mining and holding Bitcoin and running a Bitcoin node

is something that citizens in different countries can do reliably. Like that, I feel like those things are very different things to advocate for. And it's pretty clean to advocate for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a fairly launched, it's clearly not a security, it's a commodity, it's decentralized. It's free of speed, it's freedom of speech. So like, I think it's a very good thing to do. It's clean to

advocate for Bitcoin. Once you start adding in everything else, it gets a lot less clean. So just even from an advocacy perspective, I think it's beneficial just for Bitcoin. But this is just a complete subjective argument as to like, oh, I think that this thing is good. Therefore, I want the lobbying groups to advocate for this thing and this thing alone. And there's other things that

aren't as good as this thing. And any resources that are spent advocating for like some NFT thing, which I mean, the shit coin is, but therefore bad. Like that's just a subjective argument that you're like trying to will upon the people that are doing the advocating. And on the other side of the coin, the other people can't advocate for whatever they want. I just like, I,

yeah, but you're talking about your different Bitcoin. Yeah, specifically. And like, Bitcoin are making that happen. Yeah, right. Bitcoin is making that happen. There are like a describing to this model where like we're only, we only give our attention and energy on to, on to one thing. And the fact that they believe that is, is the, it's, it's just so frustrating when like, there's, there's all

these tokens on Ethereum. And by the very nature of the Ethereum protocol, whenever more tokens are created, whenever more block space is consumed, that actually has downstream impacts upon the monetary asset. That is the thing that secures the network, which is ether. So whenever someone makes a single transaction on Ethereum, it makes ether a more sound money. And now that is the soundness of the economics.

We can go into the debate about the soundness of like whether people can actually tinker with that via a protocol upgrades, but it does have downstream soundness of the economics of ether. And so if you are talking about what I want big corners to advocate for sound money and sound money alone. Again, it's just a subjective argument as to whether you, what you believe, is to

actually be sound money. And it's really just another form of gate, gatekeeping, which is a lot of artists are minting these NFTs as a, as an expression of their speech. Artists like art is speech and artists, especially digital artists, now have these NFT things to communicate what they want to express to the world. And so all these big coin advocates that again, like if you are,

if you give a fuck about Bitcoin and that's the only thing you give a fuck about, like sure, that's also speech you're allowed to do that. But just like, like, drawing the line and saying like, I don't want, I'm not willing to share resources with other people that are in my same industry. And like, regardless of whether you think that this is a Bitcoin industry and

then a separate cryptocurrency industry, it's not like that. It's all the same. And that's how people view us. It's just, it's just, it's just, in me, it's just another form of like bag bias where like people are in my Twitter comments to me like, oh, what about my coin that like I believe in? It's the same thing. I think it's pretty unfair to call it bag

bias. Like, I think people are allowed to advocate for what they care about. And like, you know, advocating for Bitcoin, I care about that a lot. I definitely would push back on, you know, you five, by advocating, like the definition of sound money between like something that is like theoretically deflationary versus sound as in it's like, uncorruptible and like a perfect monetary policy. So I feel

like perfect is also subjective. I think, I think a fixed monetary policy is the perfect monetary policy for communicating, for communicating value and the most scalable way possible. Because it removes a monetary uncertainty and allows us to move forward as a society. So, I mean, that is my mental model for how Bitcoin helps humanity evolve. What you're describing is, you know, I mean, I think that's

what I'm saying. And I think that's what I'm describing to me sounds more of like a way to make number go up in fiat terms. Yeah, so I will agree that Bitcoin has this, has this great niche as to a monetary policy as in a hard count. That's a fantastic. Just like, there's a lot of value to be captured there. It is not, it is not

like pristine. It is not the niche to cover. It is not like this immaculate thing that is true. It's a really, really good thing. And we're, we contrast that with like, oh yeah, with Ethereum, this whole like burning of the transaction fees, all this stuff. It's all about like the pump mentals and the number go up. Yeah, sure. I mean, sure. I would frame it in

different terms. I would frame it as security goes up. And the number one thing that the Ethereum network is interested in is securing itself. And then we all know that the value of the underlying asset, the more that it is higher, the more secure the Ethereum with it. The more secure the blockchain is, whatever blockchain that it is, like Bitcoin, you know this. And so it's,

it may be, if you want to frame it negatively, you can say like, oh yeah, pump mentals, like you dollar value go up. I'm saying, everything that is built on Ethereum, it becomes more secure. The more things that are built on it. And this is a security and economics sustainability flywheel. In my, in my ideas of beautiful model. I mean, the thing is that all of

those things are also true for Bitcoin in terms of the system gets more valuable as more people use it as it is integrated into the world more. Yeah, that's definitely true. And that's true because Bitcoin is, you know, more people use the money, money gets money, liquidity, gets liquidity. And that is also true for Ethereum. Same thing with the ether, all the, all the same reasons

of what you just said about Bitcoin are also true for Ether, the asset on the Ethereum blockchain. And Ether also has all the tailwinds of utility of people. Using Ether for non monetary use cases. So not only does Ether get the monetary use cases, the pure monetary use cases, but also gets the, is gets lashed on to the utility of the Ethereum blockchain. Yeah. What Bitcoin

doesn't do is it doesn't connect the value of the asset to the value of the block space. And so Bitcoin block space can be very, very cheap. While one Bitcoin can be very, very expensive. And that's an insecure blockchain. Whereas Ethereum, the utility of the block space, the reason why people are purchasing that block space is the NFC because people want to speculate on NFTs, whatever.

Like the value of the block space actually does become formally instantiated in the value of the ether, the asset. So, I mean, honestly, I don't know in up about Ethereum block game theory, at least the most up to date game theory, to comment on like how it captures the value of the block space. But I have a very simple explanation for why Ethereum is a very

simple explanation. And that is because the cantalon effect is very lucrative. So if you have a very lucrative thing, then your block space is going to, you know, be, I think, unnaturally high. So, I mean, I don't know how long the cantalon effect is going to continue to be relevant. It's probably going to be our entire lifetime, which would vote well for things that enable the

cantalon effect and cantalon insiders to take advantage of that. So that's what Ethereum is. Ethereum does right now. And I think in terms of Bitcoin, I think that you and many people that on the Ethereum side have very, very little understanding of the actual economics and game theory of Bitcoin. I think if you subscribe to anything that Justin Drake says, then you actually don't understand how

Bitcoin works, how mining works, how the incentives work. We haven't even gotten into the news, but we can talk about China and what happened there and how that pretty much, invalidates every aspect of what a lot of Ethereum, Bitcoin bears, and say about how Bitcoin's security works. Well, so to speak for Justin Drake, Justin Drake would just response you and say, well, you don't actually understand.

And I think we would also say Ethereum on Bitcoin, because I don't really understand. Bitcoin, Bitcoin. And then also when like the hash rate of Bitcoin goes down by 50%, and then goes back up and recovers due to the local temporal time of like what, nine, six months, it's actually 50% is nothing in comparison to the long term algorithmic depreciation of the Bitcoin subsidy, which have

itself every four years. So it has itself in like going down 50% is not the same thing as approaching zero. Those are two very, very different numbers. And to address the concern of like the cantalon effect where like apparently some central ether like stakeholders are earning all the value of the on chain economics, one of the reasons why having a financial layer built on your chain

is so important. And also one of the reasons of how we can spread all this wealth is when something some tokens get birthed on Ethereum, like that is not connected to ether, the asset, except for the gas fees that was needed to be paid. And so when some token like chain link goes from zero to a bajillion dollars or some artists like min some high value

NFTs, it takes one transaction fee and then the complete rest of the value of the tokens are completely separate from ether holders. And so what Ethereum allows people to do is we have an asset money printer. We have it. We have the printing press that we that of assets and that printing press just like in the Renaissance, one reason why the Renaissance happened was we created

the printing press and ideas were able to proliferate. And that created the information networks of the 1400s that allowed ideas and freedom to spread throughout the Renaissance. Then we came up with the internet and the same thing happened with infreedem of information. And now with blockchains, we have not just a printing press of information, but a printing press of assets that allows anyone to create their

own assets in ways that they can find ways to describe value to it. And so it actually completely decentralized. It's the central money printer and pushes it towards the margins and allows wealth creation to be at the margins. That has nothing to do with any sort of like central body of like Ethereum people that control the whole entire network, except for the one connection of the

gas fee, which again, I do understand is high, but that is what it costs to maintain a highly valuable network that allows for this wealth creation events to be happening at the margins. Well, the gas fee is high is because it pays to pay the gas fee if you are an insider. It pays to pay the gas fee period like full stop. Sure. I mean, there's

a lot of analysis that shows that it's like pretty much big funds that are using the blockchain at this point. But beyond that, I would like to. The big funds are doing all the activity on OpenC. I mean, dude, I mean, I think there's a lot of speculators who again are taking advantage of what's happening on Ethereum. Ethereum, both the printing and the speculating on it

during a bull market. So I'm, that's great. Like, I'm not even contending with anything that you just said. Really, like, I agree that Ethereum does all these things and all these things are possible though. Really, my contention with Ethereum is that not that they are wrong about Ethereum. They're probably right about Ethereum. You know more about Ethereum than me. I think that's like a pretty obvious.

Like, I won't admit that. But my contention is that you're actually extremely wrong about Bitcoin. And because you're extremely wrong about Bitcoin, you're missing out on a very big part of what's going to be happening in the future. And what is going to be happening in the future in terms of like what Bitcoin means to value being stored in random assets. I think that's like long

term, very bearish. Because I don't think that that really computes with having a pure store value and a pure. So where this is of this card, computer and all the other thinking in the micro and even making. So, what's the deal in the SIM? As long as it's still as hard game, what is it to say now. It's also available in the crypto industry to sell

out it. And it needs to be there and it bears the same price. So, you ordered, 105 andiar, and it becomes much more popular. But, you know, just, now I mentioned second term, my maintenance is promoted very low, by your seconds, reaching, you know, one of the more, you know, the way that automatically we're talking to extension investors because all these banking won't pay us down

all spring on our bank account. The whole of these, what makes established are now, you're putting. And it pays to be an insider and a taste maker. And that's why, like, obviously, you can arb the fees. So, and you said about speculation, right? Like, it was about speculation on the arm. And there's nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying that's what it is. Yeah. And like,

this is one of the biggest arguments about why big corners have always, uh, justifies like the volatility in VTC, right? Like, what? If we are at the, the genesis of a very large, like, wealth creation event that's going to just like, shatter the world when it comes to what it means. I have arts and culture. There is speculation that comes along with that. Like, people know

that there's wealth to be made. And so a lot of this speculation actually ends up in the hands of the artists that are making these like NFTs or like whatever, like whatever tokens are being made these days. There's not that. Right. It's a beautiful part of the fundamentals. Like, right. And so, like, this speculation by funds actually, is what is funding all of this, like, cultural

creation, cultural, like, artistic expression. I think that's a pretty fiat idea. And it doesn't really compute with a sound money, sound money world. So that's what I'm saying is like, you are right. But, you, like, I think you are just underestimating Bitcoin. And then what Bitcoin disappeared. Yeah. The thing is like, the cool thing about Ethereum being aligned with like utility and having things that are

able to happen on Ethereum is that we actually, as Ethereum people, get the point at all the things that we like have as evidence. I was like, oh, this is like why Ethereum is doing the things that we're saying that it's going to do. Whereas, I've just been hearing like the same chance about Bitcoin over and over and over again. Like, oh, you don't get the

theory of sound money. You don't get like the properties about Bitcoin. You don't get Bitcoin. And like, I think I actually get Bitcoin. Like, we've done this, we've done this podcast for years. I've talked to many, many big ones. I think that's what I'm saying. Bitcoin is, I think I understand Bitcoin pretty damn well. And Bitcoiners unfortunately are plagued with this problem where they only have

this like narrative and thesis of just like these probably proof of work is valuable. And that's the narrative and like miners selling their lines. That's good for distribution. It's good for legitimacy. That's the narrative. But unfortunately, because Bitcoin has like consolidated all of its technical capabilities to only focusing on VTC, the asset, there is actually no evidence to support anything that is about the thesis of

Bitcoin. There's only these other Bitcoiners that are chanting the same chance over and over and over again. And that's why the whole industry thinks you guys are told. Can we tease that a little bit more? How? Sure. I mean, we've gone in in what since 2009 till now. So it's 12 years. We've gone from no price to household name and a currency in its sovereign country.

So I mean, like, what I mean, like what's your definition here? My definition of what? I'm not living up to some sort of like success. Right. Because I actually don't think that you can like parse away a lot of Bitcoin or success from the rest of the ecosystem. So Bitcoin, Bitcoin gets its own tailwinds. And you say this, you're like, oh, yeah, all shakowans are good

for Bitcoin. And yes, like Bitcoin is the first. And the first thing, the first proof of concept, is that the whole concept of Bitcoin is the most important thing to ever rise upon the world is going to be extremely valuable. Because that's kind of the whole point of the thing. If Bitcoin wasn't valuable, then the whole rest of the industry also wouldn't work. But going back

to the whole concept about Bitcoin with this, like, decreasing security. Bitcoin is like perfectly positioned. Bitcoin is not the only security other than in narrative. You're just spinning the pages that we show. We show me on the chart where it's decreasing. All it, the happening. Yeah. And when you look at all other metrics that relate to the having, it makes them go up. Okay. But when

you approach zero, like, you're, you just, it's where you go. When is Bitcoin going to get to the point where you're concerned? And like, it doesn't take like every single block to be like below zero in terms of security, but it just takes a few blocks every now and then to start really. So what is that little concept of security? So we're talking about three ish

having from now. So that's like 11 years from now. So that's 2032. Like, where does Bitcoin exist in that society? Right? Is it relevant? Yeah. No, it's perhaps it's extremely relevant. But it's like, I think what you're asking is trying to compare the size of Bitcoin to the size of society. And that has always been like, I think our fundamental, like, we can't, we always talk

to pass it about each other with this because it's not about how big Bitcoin is in relation to the objects around it that can attack it. It's how big it is to itself. And so if it costs very little in Bitcoin terms to reorg a day's worth of blocks, then somebody with a lot of Bitcoin's can do that. True. Bitcoin is not proof of stake. Okay.

Bitcoin is proof of works. You actually have to own the infrastructure. Or no, if you can rent the infrastructure by making a significant minor subsidy by just paying people. I mean, that is someone who is just like acting completely out of game theory. So like, it just makes absolutely no sense. And again, at what point, right? So like, my name right now, 37 sats, that is

the block reward in 100 years. Okay. So like, when you're talking about when is Bitcoin going to break? Okay. So in 100 years, 37 sats per block reward is going to be a fucking steal. It's going to be an enormous amount of money that people are going to try to arb energy to get. Okay. And it is, there's going to be some of the biggest, most

valuable companies in the entire world are going to be doing everything they possibly can do to innovate to get those 37 sats. Okay. So that is where I think this is going to go. So in terms of like, what percentage of all human activities on Bitcoin right now, probably less than 1%. So what happens when you get to like 100%. Okay. Like we're not talking about

fees, but like we're not appreciation of finite Bitcoin in the block award. Now stack the fees. So like, I feel like you're not thinking in exponentials whatsoever. And you're living in this world where you're like, well, you're just going to go down by half every four years in the next world viewers. And then things are going to get tricky. Like, I feel like that analysis is

pretty weak. So you said that is great. By number go up. Our system is because it's actually a part of the sustainable economics of the chain where Bitcoin, 37 sats is all that's going to secure Bitcoin into the future. We have no idea what the Bitcoin price is going to be in the future. That's just 100 years. Right. And so yeah, we're trying to. So 37

sats, whatever, it's like 2000 sats. Let's move up like 50 years. 2000 sats. I went under the years from now. That's so that it's not bragging rights to advertise how low you're paying out for your security. You're baking. I said, I'm not going to have these things exponentially. So like we're not even talking about these are all like speculation. This is speculation. What is your biggest

speculation? The whole thing is first and foremost, there's no speculation on how many big points are going to be or how what the block reward is going to be at that point. That is all known. See what's your block reward going to be? But you are speculating on the value of. Yeah. So I'm going to either and Bitcoin is. This is why the trajectory is really

important. When you ask me what the blockchain value of Ethereum is going to be. It's I don't know, but I can tell you the trajectory and the trajectory is the more valuable that the Ethereum block space becomes because of the more utility that's found on Ethereum, which that utility is created by the free market is going to go up. Whereas Bitcoin, I can tell you is

going to go down. What's the whole point? Well, it's going down literally. Yeah, it's going down. You want your security to go down. You're going to see your down. You're going to be security with BTC, denominator block reward. I think block reward and fees are both going down in sat terms. If you look at the chart, that's what's happening. Okay. But both are exploding and buying

power. Neither is Justin Drake. You know so much about Bitcoin. All crypto is based off of game theory. Everyone's thinking about game theory. That's a full point. Yeah. He's talking about. No, he just disagrees with you. He doesn't miss on. He doesn't understand you. He disagrees with you. Back of an African map, doesn't even take an account time value of money, which is basic assumption. This

is speculation. That is actually how it works. He doesn't even use it basic, basic map to to make his assumptions on what is it going to take to attack Bitcoin? Again, doesn't even take an account game theory. Guess what China did? Shots off on the foot. Band Bitcoin. And oh, you were like, oh man. Bitcoin hasherate went down 50%. Well, guess what? All of that hasherate

relocated across the globe. A lot of that hasherate is accounted for. And now China does not have its stronghold on Bitcoin mining. Bitcoin hasherate our difficulty adjusted within about two and a half weeks. And now we're back up, you know, back to smooth sailing. So the way I interpret that is that Bitcoin works. The incentives work. Game theory works. I'm very interested on how you interpret

that. Yeah, I think that's just like a such a short term like temporal. There's not actually much signal to be pulled pulled out there. Like we are talking about the fundamental like constructions of these systems, not that like one country like Bandit. But let's go down. Let's go down this road. China had a very large central position of hash power and then a bandit. And then

that's good for distribution, right? Because this central power that had like significant on the hash power then bandit. And then that hash power got diffused elsewhere, making Bitcoin more decentralized. Actually, I think there's a world where like that's actually an anomaly, just the fact that like China decided like what if some like non material like country band Bitcoin mining like I don't know some South Africa.

Band Bitcoin mine like not that big deal. But what happens with when like more and more countries decided to ban Bitcoin mining and then more and more countries decided to ban Bitcoin mining and all of this hash power starts like fleeing all the countries that's banning it and going into countries that aren't banning it. And then all of a sudden everything gets funneled into like these

three countries that haven't banned Bitcoin yet. And like create they're the ones that that have all the Bitcoins. But the whole but now you can't find it across the whole rest of the world. Like these are all just like weird like geopolitical anomalies that like sure we can talk about every single one. Doesn't really have anything to do with the actual fundamental like sustainability of the

ecosystem itself. But also that's an argument. So why is really nice to not have an actual physical footprint for your blockchain in the real world? Well, I mean again Ethereum definitely has a physical footprint. So if their infrastructure takes up a lot of energy, it's in server rooms. So this idea that it doesn't have a physical footprint is comical. But yes, the consensus is not as

proof of sake or proof of work. The consensus is not tied to energy expenditure. Yes, I get that. But with the same with that being said, there is physical footprint. Like there's literally servers on the internet sucking up power. Like that doesn't come out of nowhere. Yeah, but this this. The server. You don't think this is like me. Once we get to proof of sake, it's

like a 99.9% reduction in energy consumption. And so like, I mean, yeah, like when I charge my phone in, it's also sucking up power. The other thing about Ethereum security is that security is defined by ether. I mean, it's not as fluid as something that's completely digital, but it's still a bit more fluid than it is. Like, again, we saw real. I think that I was

a person with not fluid. Okay. So it was not so what's the timeline? Instantaneous. Okay. Okay. Well, look, we we could argue about this, but I feel like that gets besides the point because like one of your base assumptions, right, is that energy is something that it's going to be cracked down on. Right. And I would say like, yeah, energy is going to get cracked down

on. And we need some and that is a bad thing. I think that that is led by false narratives that that's led by totalitarianism. And I think that we're living in a world right now where energy is being cracked down on. And that energy systems are being deconstructed. And the grid is being centrally planned. And I think that this is where Bitcoin mining comes in and

fixes a lot of issues. And so removing mining is not fixing problems. Like yes. Okay. It makes the the the consensus based on stake so it doesn't use electricity. I don't think that that's necessarily solving a problem. And I mean, I would say that there's probably a lot of evidence to show that that's probably going to centralize the control amongst existing holders. So in terms of

like actually solving real problems, I think that proof of work is by far necessary to solve the world's problems. We need proof of work to fix our energy is going to be structured. We need proof of work to grid balance. Like the world is frickin crumbling. Like look at what is happening across the globe. Look at Europe. Tell me Europe is in a sustainable situation based

on how that infrastructure is being centrally planned. And I can tell you how Bitcoin fixes this. This is another one of those things where Bitcoiners tie in Bitcoin away from the actual sustainability of the chain to like these real real world. Like just things. These are not anomalies, but context or context of the real world. And so you're saying that. Yes. This is where we talk

about the real world. I'm sorry. That was not all models. The details. What you are telling me is that oh, yes, Bitcoin in the future is going to be this economically sustainable thing. It's happening now. Bitcoin is being integrated into energy now. We just did a publication on Bitcoin magazine by Compass Mining showing the Navajo Nation, which has been a second class citizen or second class

to arbitrage and an honest amount. You can just look at how successful the public stocks are going to know that Bitcoin mining is a absolute revolution that is catching fire. So I mean, I don't really know what you're looking at when you're like, Hey, I'm going to jump over to proof of state because mining bad. Like mining is absolutely something that is incredibly useful. It has

an enormous amount of utility for real world people that need energy and they need energy across the globe. It's going to help people in Konga get energy and build out infrastructure and your proof of state doesn't do ship. Okay. So. Okay. So there's a significant amount of cherry picking that Bitcoiners do when they say about like, Oh, this is where we're getting the energy from. Sure.

Some of the newer installations of Bitcoin miners perhaps are more green than the old. It is green. This is you falling into this weird narrative. Like the narrative like sustainable. I mean, sustainable is not essentially cramped grid. When we're in I say sustainable, I'm saying when the actual energy, the costs of the production of energy actually are lower than the result that you can get from

it. So like we can cut it cut off from the grid. So long as you can produce energy at a cheaper rate than what you can sell it, that's sustainable. And Bitcoin mining like helps get that done. The thing is like, again, there's a significant amount of cherry picking as to what Bitcoiners do when they talk about like where the actual energy for this, this Bitcoin

mining input actually comes from. And again, we should be talking about, we should, because you're ignoring all the non Bitcoin miners that aren't doing all of this stuff that are just doing all the things that everyone or it's very specifically fearful that they're doing. And again, what we are, what we should actually be talking about. What about mining on energy consumption, if you consume energy, you

actually have to justify that for its consumption. I think that that is absolutely not true. And I think that's a false narrative that is going to lead people to poverty. I think we move forward by creating more abundant energy, not being energy police. The problem with Bitcoin is that Bitcoin is secured by proof of work. That's not the problem. That is the evolution. You can't remove

it. Bitcoin can't, you can't take credit for Bitcoin generating energy. If it's generating energy, and then it also just consumes it all. Like that's, you don't actually are adding anything to the world. You're just like Bitcoin. We made energy cheaper. But then, but then we ate it. See, this is where this is where it's not you are misinterpreting what is happening. So what Bitcoin is is

Bitcoin is energy. Consumption that's not geographically bound. So that is what's useful. And I'm sorry to like, startle you, but a shipping container with ASICs is extremely fucking portable. Like moving something in six months across the globe, infrastructure across the globe is extremely fucking impressive. If you actually know what's happening in these conditions in a global lockdown in a global pandemic, the Bitcoin network. Pulled all

of it with its game theory pulled all of those ASICs out of China relocated across the globe across language barriers across all of every single issue that could have arose. It did that in six months. So what Bitcoin is is energy demand across the globe, no matter what. So hey, guess what you're in the Congo. No one wants to fucking buy your waterfall energy. Okay, well,

if you can get Bitcoin miners out there, all of a sudden you can monetize that. So what's your proof of stake in it? You for that person. Because that's a real fucking problem that Bitcoin fixes for that person. And it's like, that's not to be shrugged away. That's like real. Like they have an issue. Bitcoin fixes this. You're trying to like, latch on Bitcoin and this

energy production to like, you know, this like, to the people of the world. And like, trying to like latch on the narrative onto this thing. We're you saying like, oh, it takes Bitcoin six months to move all of it. It's like security from one part of the world to another. And then you say, sure, in a globe, whatever. And then you say like, you can't move.

And actually, and there Bitcoin isn't geographically constrained because you can move these things around. Like what Bitcoin can do in six months, Ether can do in one block. You can move Ether directly across the world to a different computer. And not actually have you say Bitcoin doesn't have a geographic footprint. Of course it has a geographic footprint. That's what it is. And so yeah, you can

you can move that geographic footprint. Like you can move it like a trailer. But that still has a footprint. You still have economic cost to that to that movement of the thing. And Bitcoin is only secured two thirds electricity by one third hardware. You can't ignore the hardware aspect of this where ether you Bitcoin absolutely has a geographic footprint. Ether does not have a geographic footprint.

That's what proof and stake is. And so ether can move from one tiny laptop from one corner of the world instantaneously across the other side of the internet without any of these. These are strong. They actually have to sell your business. There is a geographic footprint for both. They are little physical computer networks and they're distributed across the globe. And look, Bitcoin's energy consumption. Bitcoin's energy

demand has no geographic location. It is geographically agnostic. That is why it brings energy online. You need the proof of work for the function to bring energy online. Okay. So just because your consensus mechanism is done by coins, which I understand are easier to transfer than hardware. That does not mean that ether does not have a geographic footprint because the network is physical hardware. And you

have to understand that physical hardware can be attacked. It is attached to the energy grid. And you are there's a lot of other assumptions that are baked into actually putting that thing online. If you are a government and you have a fighter plane with a bomb on it, you can blow up all of the ASICs of a Bitcoin miner with a push of a button. Where

if you take an Ethereum validating computer and throw it out the window, you can just move the ether. So yes, at all times ether has a geographic footprint. But the current state of the world with the virus, Ethereum's geographic, yeah, the Ethereum network, the current state of the world does not have a geographic footprint. So it does not actually commit to a future state of the

world about the footprint of Ethereum. And so how can you not say that like if Ethereum doesn't have a geographic footprint when there are literal physical computers, and then there is ether the asset, and ether the asset isn't tied to any computer. Whereas Bitcoin's all that actually is. I get how blockchains work. Yes, right. So we all have a geographic footprint. Well, the key is theoretically.

We have a geographic footprint, even though they're easy to transfer. Hey, let's move past this. My keys are on paper, not on a computer. Let's move this conversation over. Because I feel like we're just kind of like, we're just jying at each other now. Coming to ahead. Yeah, let's talk about like the bull market. Because that's what we promise to the people. We want to talk

about bull market down there. I have some stuff from here. So I guess like what are your thoughts here? I feel like the bull market has been treating you quite well. The whole dogecoin and dogecoin fork derivative phenomenon is something that is fun to watch. But if we really want to get into like media conversations, it's really the whole like Ethereum versus a lot of debate

that's going on right now. Because a bunch of new things are going on right now. Yeah, a bunch of new people. Yeah. Tell me about the debate. Well, I mean, it's the same debate about EOS in 2017, right? Like a bull market comes. A bunch of people want to do like crypto stuff and transact with their stuff and have like fun crypto times. Then like the

actually decentralized blockchains become congested because they've constrained their block space. So all of that flows out of the way. So we're going to go over to some sort of and turns into some sort of demand for some alternative L1. A bunch of VCs make a bunch of money trying to spin up a bunch of L1s. Like last season, it was like EOS and I can't remember

all the other ones that died. This season is like avalanche and oh yeah, Tron was one of them Tron still around. Not actually getting any traction. They got their avalanche and Tron. Yeah, it's just it's just repayments though, right? I mean, yeah, real people use that shit to live. Sure, sure. But yeah, so last last bull market, it was EOS, this bull market, Salona, all these

people that are transacting on Salona are like not appreciating long-term sustainability of chains and not understanding that when you have a blockchain that advocates for cheap block space, the long-term destination of that chain is to become more and more centralized. But what did they have to do for cheap block space and then pivot to expensive block space? So if they do that, then they just actually

turn into Ethereum, right? So if you're just following in Ethereum's perception and like sure, there's just like this model in business apparently called like penetrative pricing, right? If you wanted to disrupt your competition, you come in with a product, you purposely dampen the price so that people buy yours instead and then later you once you establish some sort of market dominance, then you start raising the

price. If you start doing that, well then you actually start constraining the block space, which is how you become sustainable as a blockchain and then you force fees and then everyone that's on Salona is like, well, fuck, I'm here because I wanted no fees and now there's all the fees. Where all these fees come from? And then all of a sudden, you turn into the thing

that you were trying to disrupt. And we've seen this all before. It's like when Bitcoin had all of his hard forks in like 2013 to 2017. I don't know if it's exactly like that, but I feel like it's none of those had a chance. I don't know. This is where it's tough for me. It's like, does Ethereum have a moat? Is where I'm conflicted? Yeah, people

have been wondering about that forever. Ethereum's moat is its developers. The big threat to Ethereum out of Salona is that there's a significant portion of the world that doesn't care about decentralization, which is actually like kind of a good bet. But if you're talking about Ethereum, you're not going to be able to do that. Again, that's why these technical arguments about these blockchains are so important

because Salona can capture a lot of people in the world that don't care about decentralization. But that actually doesn't fix Salona's unsustainability problems. Why? Why? They're going to have to deal with state bloats. They can just fork that away. Because they're centralised. Who cares? Yeah, that's a pretty good point. You also have to deal with the government issues. So it's a centralised and you keep that

straight on things away. The government's going to come and say, hey, hello, Mr. Anatoli. I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't think that competent these days is pretty corrupt too. Yeah, I mean, they're incompetent in doing the things that we want them to. But they can be competent in enforcing the incompetent laws that they put in place. So yeah, they're incompetent at making good

laws. But they still can be competent. They can be competent in enforcing the bad laws that they make. I can definitely, I can really really read the bad laws. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways. So yeah, repeat history rhymes. There's like this big sulcon going on right now. Somebody sent me a bunch of notes from Sulkans. I hear it's like the vibes of sulcon right now. And like, oh,

yeah, I forgot about computers, I can read this because like two of them are just absolutely ridiculous. Like fucking perfect. One of them was that the narrative of Salana people is that Ethereum people got really, really rich. And therefore are like lazy and just like, like, resting on their laurels now, which is hilarious because of the concentration of Salana people. Salana people got way more rich

or way faster than Ethereum people. And it's way more of a percentage of overall Salana people. And so it's just a fantastic narrative on their part. But like fundamentally just like I think everything is fractal. So it it tricked out to me. Hold on, where is it? Top down approach. Top down approach. Oh yeah. While most ETH people dismiss Salana, I have personally come to accept

that the strong set of stakeholders, that the strong set of stakeholders of Salana are trying to force a top down adoption in narrative of Salana will be very, very powerful. So this is just like the like the Kyle Salmani's of the world and like all the people that got rich off Salana, just like injecting money into it. And you actually actually see this on crypto Twitter

these days. Or it's all it's just like the chain link bots and all the other bots that we've seen extra P dots like ADA bots. You need to call us all these people better. Really just a bunch of Furvent gamblers. Yeah, but you can also you can you can tell because they all started with the last like two weeks or so. And like sure, maybe there's

like this mob mentality. But like when you have that corroborated by somebody that's that Salana talking to Salana people at Salana, this along the convention talking to the Salana people and saying like, Oh, yeah, like we're going to like do that. We're we're trying to instill this like top down narrative. Like, okay, it kind of makes sense. Yeah, I mean like it's pretty much like the

extra P model. Like it looks like the SEC exactly the XS. Software is in take down the, the clamp government. And I think that that Boards will for Bitcoin. No, because then that probably means that? Well, I know You think. And you think. You'll help Walking in that bro undergo your rh or Ethereum to, just because a lot of people who you know probably printed things

that might be a legal. Coming out a way with it and get really rich and get a lot of hard money. If there's a dog coin like a really cute good market a dog coin that's created on Solana. Do you think that that will mean? Oh, probably. Is that like almost 100% bet or order? I do you realize that situation given the macro situation that we're

in? What do you mean the macro situation that we're in? We're in a Bitcoin bull market and we also live in clown world. So I feel like this is a very specific macro situation. Yeah, Bitcoin is left to like co off the bull market and say it's not how it works. Yeah, it's not a four year cycle that revolves around the having. Yeah, it's not. That's

right. So yeah, if this like doggy food coin or no, yeah, doggy coin was on Solana and it pumps. Yeah, it makes total sense. That's where all the traders and speculators and everyone that's going to Solana is like of the moon boy culture. Like trying to moon trying to catch my moon. And so like it makes sense to put a moon bag on Solana. Like that's

product market fit. All right. If someone makes that. Keep it in the eye out. I kind of I can't I 100% think there's already like 100 dog coins on Solana. I would be so obviously I'm spending much time looking into it. No, not there have I but just like knowing the culture and knowing knowing how like DJ inside of crypto works like this definitely stuff on

the menu. So I mean, let's talk about about bull market. So you know, everyone knows me. Big coin. I'm running big coin magazine. You know, I would hope to not blush to me myself. But like, how do you go about, you know, we're in a bull market. How do you go about your informational advantage when you're in a position like this? Like, you know, I would

never advocating for gambling your sats and, you know, maybe anything you invested in the shit coin is gambling your sats because that's the opportunity cost of sats. But like, you know, you can you can you can pretty much if you've been around, you can you can understand what the average you can be able to do and think you can pretty easily forecast that. So kind of

curious what you're taking is on that. I mean, I know that you're not afraid of dabble and shit coins. I mean, I'm not I'm not much of a trader. I don't appreciate the branding of somebody that like dabbles in this like, you know, the the contilling effect that you're projecting. There's other traders out there who'd like try to play like these these like the memory of

markets like if this is this, this is this is that I'm kind of a guy that is interested in owning a part of all the pieces of the shares of the public good system that is a theory. That is what I like. There are things that I care about that I want to protect one of these things that is recently in news is the NS. And

so yes, I got an E NS air drop. Well, that thing is doing things that thing is doing things right now. And what do you mean by law? What do you mean by law? Well, I mean like. So before I'm just going to pre hold judgment, explain to me the NS air drop. Just explain the token, the whole thing. And then, and then I will, I'll

tell you what I think. Sure. Sure. So we had Brent Lee Milligan on POG crop podcast sometime in 2019. One of the big things that we asked him about is the funds for when somebody purchases an E NS name. And so in order, the reason why you have to actually purchase an E NS name in instead of just like claiming the one that you want, like

I have David Hoffman, not eat. I had to pay for that. The reason why I have to pay for that is because they're scarce. And so like if all E NS names were free, well, then like one person can claim every single name and all of a sudden that system for naming things is useless. So we actually need to have some sort of anti-civil mechanism so

that we can actually sustainably manage the resources of this network. So the E NS team had to actually sell these E NS names for either, which made which gave them a treasury. I can't remember what it was when we talked to Brent Lee Milligan at the time, but there's something like it is in the low one single digit or million dollars, like something of one to

10 million dollars. And so we asked him what Brent Lee, what is he going to do with that, that all of that treasury? And he was like, I don't know. I don't know what we're going to do with it. It's where we're just going to put it here. And then we're going to like save it for later once we figure out how to do it, how

to deal with it, we'll deal with it. But it was actually very much an unintentional byproduct to manage the economic resources of the system. And always in the E NS vibe in the vision, the North Star of E NS is to figure out how to make this a community managed protocol. Then the Dow revolution comes along and you can people have figured out that they can

actually spread out control over these systems to a very large number of people using tokens. And so using that system, the concept of retroactive air drops, where you surgically find all the people that have used your system in the past, you can allocate them a certain balance of tokens, proportionals, how much they've engaged with the system in ways that you've deemed most aligned to the system.

And then you can re-alicate tokens to them. That's what happened with the E NS. So if you had an E NS name, you got a certain balance of tokens. We can go into the parameters about like how some people got more tokens than others if you want to unpack them. I generally thought it was a pretty fair distribution. If you owned an E NS name for

longer, you got more tokens, because for shorter, you got less tokens, and a few other parameters like that. And now there are these token holders that have actually the way that the government has modeled Merck since there's delegates, much like your representative democracy. No one wants to do all this voting and understanding what's going on themselves. So people delegate their vote to a specific delegate. You

can move your vote wherever you want to. But now these delegates are responsible for acknowledging the whales of the token holders to guide the management of this E NS system. So the Ethereum names service system can actually be a long term sustainable public good for the namespace around Ethereum and everything that it's connected to. It's pretty good pitch. As a pretty good skeptical response. I mean,

there's a lot of things about it that are like really clean, right? So you had a neat system. It's a thing that people were buying. Like you kind of had like a map of users, like, you know, probably Ethereum insiders were heavy on that users like just realistically, but it's not a theory of insiders. It's people that used E NS. It's specifically the people that they

care about. I agree. Users, they gave it to users based on them being there, right? I'm just also categorizing on those users as Ethereum insiders who know the founder. Oh, it's the Cantillon inside. It's the inside. It's the same. It's not. It's just the people. Okay. So yeah, there's a time here in which they're distributed that distribution is locked in stone at this time here. And

then just put the sake there back there. They have control of this of this treasury now as well as the system. Like, you know, there's a bad way to paint it. And there's a good way to paint it. You know, I think ultimately, like, does it turn into a cabal or does it maintain as something that is a true public good? We'll see. Like, you know,

we've seen. I would say like the current system we have right now is quote unquote, like the traditional system we have, the financial system democracy in the US, like that resembles proof of state to some degree would have, you know, some sort of treasury that they manage and specific people with the right lineage and they're at the right time. You know, they are connected to it.

And we'll see, like, we'll see. We'll see how, how, like, you know, talking about Bitcoin lasting for a hundred years. Like, we'll see, we'll see if these things last a hundred years. And if they can maintain in, like, startups, distributing equity was actually a really good incentive to actually figuring out how to bootstrap companies. Right? Like startup companies paid people an equity instead of instead of

cash. Startups are not about bootstrapping the incentives. And like startups that turn into public goods. And this is like Facebook or Meta. Right. And this is the, yeah. And that's a great, that's a great failure of the Web2 equity model. And in our podcast with Tricksist and Chris Dixon, he said a great line, which is the whole equity model of networks from Web2, networks like Facebook,

Twitter, Spotify, whatever. The equity model doesn't actually work with the network model. And now that we have tokens, we actually have the capital asset that fundamentally aligns with the network watt model. And the difference between this is like with Uber, you have all these very disc rental drivers that don't like their company and they're just being paid cash. And then the classic example of the Web3

model is like, well, what if we had like an Uber that like in addition to paying cash also paid you the equity of the company. Now we have these things in the Web3 world where they actually don't pay them in cash. They only pay them in equity. And every single user always gets the equity. And so the equity of E and S got distributed to over

170, 137,000 people on day one. Like this is a fundamental paradigm shift with what it means to spread capital and share capital amongst the users who are now the shareholders. And like, I know this, we're going to see how, how good this line lands. But this is literally this the worker seizing the means of production. This is literally what that is. You are a user and

you're contributing value to the system. You also receive value. You have a value back to the system. And that what makes an economically sustainable system. And so like not only do we have like free market incentives and capitalistic incentives like injecting energy into the in a system. But we have like the socialistic sense of like, oh yeah, we can actually make sure that this is this

is distributed and governance over these things is determined by the people that are actually using the thing. And it's a perfect marriage of incentives, which is how you've come to find like long terms of saying models in the first place using the thing that is certain point. Like I think the distribution is very important to you. So it was kind of a snap. Like, you know,

I like the experiments around distribution are are still quite early, although, although I do not discount that there are normal things that are kind of happening here with, you know, having, you know, having some sort of like cryptographic blockchain. User set, right, that you can like airdrops up to or whatever. Like that is, you know, those features are not ending. And I think that's what I'm

going to say. And I don't think that that's something that is outside of Bitcoin, but it's definitely something that's not going to work either. Have you gotten it? Have you gotten an airdrop on Bitcoin recently? Well, it's not something that people do a lot because the cantalon culture is not really on Bitcoin. Right. Yeah. Okay. But if there's think of you, I think Bitcoiners think of

like cantalon culture as like this one singles like money's bigger, right? This one central point of money. The cantalon that you have referring to on a theorem is more like fireworks. They're going off randomly in all different places, all at once, at no one central spot. So like the whole cantalon word is a terrible, terribly descriptive word. It doesn't actually describe the things. It's just the

thing. Same thing that like a theory. People have been frustrated about Bitcoiners about the end of time is always putting this negative like unjustified branding upon the economics of Ethereum. Okay. I mean, I think part of that is like justifying why inflation is not a big part of Bitcoin, why Bitcoin users don't, or Bitcoin holders don't necessarily benefit from token inflation directly. I think they do

in terms of like Bitcoin captures some of that price and it blows up Bitcoin's price a little bit. So part of it is that another side of it is that like, okay, yes, you can navigate the technical and social economic things within Ethereum to fairly becoming the Ethereum insider and benefit from the cantalon opportunities that are there. And that's completely fine. But that doesn't mean that

if those systems get put into place and are solidified, that that won't evolve into a toxic situation for their users long term. So I think that is where the hostility is. It's like, yeah, like this is a fair capitalistic system. But it might just be a little bit more complicated. It might be implementing a tech oligopoly of who is an Ethereum user in the early days.

This is the same criticism that Ethereum people have about Bitcoin. But the difference is that the first 50% of coins were distributed in the first like 3.5 years. And then that price even being there. And then the next four years, the next 25% of coins were distributed. And it was still like nothing. Right. So like, it's pretty good. So those are the new insiders now. But

it's not proof of stake. Those insiders have no power over the system. It doesn't matter. It does matter. They still matter all the value. I disagree. I just disagree that. I think that the the proof of stake nature matters. It makes distribution matter a lot more. So the returns. There is an hour. I don't know how deep the research went. There was a research report that

someone had put out this week where it compared the returns on investment on proof of work and proof of stake. And the whole like economies of scale and return on proof of work investment scales up way more than proof of stake. And the whole point about proof of stake is that you actually capture less and less wealth over time. Then you do improve of work versus

the miners. And yes, there is the difference where the staking asset actually has like control over the consensus of the system. But it really doesn't matter. There's not. It's not actually that much more power. It's actually a very marginal difference. Like having a single person running like their own nodes doesn't actually result in the ability to sway the chain. Oh, that's where the. That's where the.

That's where the social attack. Just come into play. And that's why having subjective aspects of consensus matters. I'm not ready to go into that. Yeah. No, I think we're. We're pretty, pretty deep. And we've definitely gotten pretty cosmic. I guess like before we close this one out, what's like one thing that you're looking at going into? You know, what could be the peak of a bull

market? Like what? What's your like your? What's your focus here? I don't think that we're going to like peak. I think it's going to be a sustainable slow rise. Slow and crypto relative to crypto terms. Sustainable. So we're going to be able to do a slow rise for a really long time. Maybe we have some blow off top like much later, but I think I think

we are not riding like the cycle super cycle. The charting super cycle. But I think we're. What riding the. What Anthony Sado calls the adoption super cycle. So what I'm particularly looking at is gaming as like this next adoption super cycle. Where that is the next the next like frontier. And it makes sense to me right. So like the way the Ethereum has really progressed is

like. First there was DeFi. We made this DeFi thing. And then once DeFi was pretty well built out, we started making NFTs. And then we had the NFTs transacting on top of the DeFi layer. And really what do you need to make gaming? Well, you need a combination of DeFi NFTs and the ERC 20 tokens. And then all of a sudden you can have the gaming

layer on top of all that. And I mean, we already we already know that this is coming more or less like actually infinity kind of was the shot across the bow for every single person that was interested in gaming. So just start shoveling money into gaming startups. And so like a Louvians about to come online. There's like a number of other games that are that are

being built behind the scenes. And each one of these games has their own like native GDP. And so like the whole like we're going to take the emerging markets of like. You know, Asia and Africa. All the desire to invest in emerging markets and it's going to be like redirected into like gaming emerging markets. Gaming is the next emerging markets. You already see like this SLP

token of. Actually infinity being used as a medium of change and around the field. And that's just like the first game that crypto is ever really able to make. And so like the great the next great economies of the world are going to be gaming economies. And that's going to happen like the next like two to three years. Then nothing sounds more clown world than what

you just described. But I guess well, we actually call it the metaverse. And it's a ton of fun. Yeah, I don't know. Like I feel like the metaverse is kind of part of like the dystopian reality that is being thrust upon us right now. I don't know. I feel like the metaverse is kind of part of like the dystopian reality that is being thrust upon us

right now. I don't know. And I just like I feel like Ethereum is leading into that really hard and Ethereum makes a lot of sense to the fiat world mindset. And Bitcoin is like a back to earth movement where you know we say fuck that shit. We're going back to nature. And we're going to strip you know all value away from bullshit. Keep it and the

sound money and and make decisions based on a queen and foreseeable economic system. So I just feel like all basis options like just completely change and like going into the metaverse is like I mean I get why it's probably bullish like you're right. Like you're not wrong about anything you said. I just think that you're wrong about Bitcoin. And that's where like I think you know

in the long term like that's going to get stomped out. Well if there's a population of the world that wants to go as you said back to like previous times where Bitcoin where like there were good times a back in the good old days more power to them. But you know just want to live in time goes for live live in reality. Maybe focus on on

the physical world. Maybe focus on getting us to space instead of in a world and keep on going. It's a private world of funding. So that way we funnel into the digital. The pride of those funding you're injecting them with funding. It's the exact opposite. Maybe. Maybe if the cantaloupe inside just leaves. That is where the funds that they printed should be allocated. Okay well this

is like the fourth time that you've used this cantaloupe inside or branding. I mean that's what it is man. But I mean we don't we don't have to bang on it too much. It's been a good rip. Missy man. I think I'm going to see you in person pretty soon. Hopefully we do one of these before then. Yeah should we just do another live one while

we're right before we go skiing in Washington. Maybe we'll see we'll see this one was recorded so it'll be on the podcast so y'all can go look up POV crypto and catch it. We'll try to get it up in a time of manner. Peace everyone should we let people want to come on stage. We'll have this next time. Oh man. Well I promised that I was

going to go do dinner at 730 so we could we could let people up for 12 minutes if we want. Or we can just rug them. Yeah now I prefer that. I'm going to rug them. All right we're going to rug them. I mean I never promised anything so there's no room guys. I never promised anything. All right no let's go. Goodbye everyone. Thanks for listening.

Do you believe? Yeah. If nothing's true then you might as well tear the light. Shakes of the gold. Shakes of the gold. Shakes of the gold. So you love me so much. So you love me so much. Shakes of the gold. Shakes of the gold. Shakes of the gold. Shakes of the gold. Shakes of the gold. Shakes of the gold. Shakes of the gold.