Luc Longley: One Giant Leap - Australian Story's C

I thought to myself, I really want to know what that Australian guy thinks about it all. He was ready to tell his story. He felt disappointed that he'd been omitted from the last dance. So it just became about conversation after conversation after conversation. He was very sensitive about the relationship with Michael Jordan and not telling that in a very sensational way. So I had to earn

his trust over that. I think it's my favourite story ever. I've just really, really enjoyed it. Then you are in Australia right now. You're talking in the basketball, you're talking in great teams, you're talking great individual players. And then the three-and-a-course Johnny goes nuts. I just tried to go up there and play my game. I have no idea what you're talking about, I don't like anybody.

I'm not a peeper person. Strands, you make a pass, yes. You catch the ball, yes. All the stars are aligned and all the muscles fall out at the right time and I was out of the ground and throw one down. I was saving that as a surprise for you. And now introducing your host for in all airness, I'm Ryan. Welcome to episode 122. Thanks for joining

me. Today I'm very pleased to welcome Caitlin Shea and Greg Hassel, co-producers of Australian Stories 2-part feature on Luke Longley, one giant leap. Personally, this podcast episode is extra special. Luke conducted me in June to ask if I'd be interested in doing research for the project. And when Luke Longley calls, you don't need to be asked twice. It was a massive thrill and I immediately said

yes. I offered some historical context and pointed Greg towards particular video footage of Luke's career. I had a minor role, however, I'm extremely thankful to Luke, Caitlin and Greg for trusting my judgment. Luke, if you do happen to hear this, I'm tremendously grateful you'd contact me, thanks mate. In this conversation, we discussed behind the scenes detail, on how one giant leap originated. The pair talk about

their experiences meeting Luke and the interview process with Longley's family and friends. You'll learn how interviews with US-based guests such as Scotty Pippen, Coach Phil Jackson and Steve Kerr were conducted. And of course, we examine how Caitlin and Greg managed to secure the involvement of Michael Jeffrey Jordan. They chat about how it felt to speak with one of the world's most recognisable names and the unique

relationship between Luke and Jordan whilst teammates on the Chicago Bulls. Truly fascinating to hear. Towards the end of the episode, I'll share another great podcast review. If you can spare a moment, please add your review via Apple podcasts. It will be most appreciated. Thank you for watching. Thank you for having us. Thank you very much for a program before. It was really very, very satisfying and

gratifying. Greg and I have put a lot of hard work into this, as has Andrew Cook, who's editing the program. And Madly editing part 2 right now. I've had so many people coming out of the woodwork and just texting me and emailing me far more than usually happens after episodes as being lovely. It's been great. Have you actually heard from Luke as to his reaction after

episode one went to air? Luke, Tuesday morning to say that he really loved it and that he had a party with all his friends and family in Perth to watch it together. I told him that he could watch it two hours earlier because he's in WA time. He wanted to wait and see it go to air with his family. And he said his dad cried and

his daughter was very proud and his wife Anna was deliriously happy. So he was really, really thrilled with it all. Because it had been difficult for me to watch it. For him, he wasn't sure whether he could trust us with his very precious personal story. So I think he was very relieved too. How did you actually get to earn that trust from Luke? Because as you

say, he's been quite reclusive since his retirement from the MBA. What was involved in building up that trust time, I guess. Definitely. I was a bit of a late comment to the last dance. I'd gone, why do I want to watch 10 hours of basketball that my husband had told me it was really good? Really, from the moment it started, I was just gripped and at

a certain point I went, oh, there's that Australian guy. What was his name? Luke Lolli. That's right. And as the series went on, I thought to myself, I really want to know what that Australian guy thinks about it all. So that was probably around July last year that our research of Vanessa set up a meeting with Luke. And he was ready to tell his story by

then. He felt disappointed that he'd been admitted from the last dance. So he was initially really keen, but then because of the border restrictions and the pandemic, we couldn't do any filming. And I'm the executive producer of the program. So I don't really have any time to be honest to go out producing stories on the side, but I couldn't do anything anyway, because the boys were

closed. So it just became about conversation after conversation after conversation. He was very sensitive about the relationship with Michael Jordan and not telling that in a very sensational way. So I had to earn his trust over that. And then he flew to Brisbane, actually, to do the main interview. It was a little bit freaked out by that afterwards, because an Australian story interview is, it's long.

It probably went for three or four hours. I asked him lots and lots of questions. I always think, ask a limp question and you get a limp answer. Whereas if you ask a media question, you'll get a media answer. So I think you've had a little moment of, do I really want to do this? And then came back on board. It's been a whole year in

that process of telling this story and just lots and lots and lots of conversations. What about when you first met Luke face to face? And you saw his immense height. Greg, you shared a photo on Twitter recently of yourself with Luke. I think it might have been in Sydney's pit street mall. It's street mall. Yeah. I'm not a tall person. I was only looking forward to

meeting Luke. What's extraordinary about Luke when he stands next to anyone, not just short ass like me, is that he looks normal and everyone else looks like a little doll. It's the strangest thing. He's like, this is kind of perfectly proportion. He doesn't make you feel tiny. I'm very conscious of tall people. You've got to first tall people who's very good with his height. And how

about you, Caitlin, when you first met him? I picked him up from the airport when he flew into Brisbane and I was determined not to say anything about his height. He must get so sick of that. I didn't say anything at all. I just pretended like it was completely normal. I think he thought I was a bit odd because we had been talking on the phone

so much that I was like, I wonder if I'll recognize him, which is really dumb, isn't it? Because it's a Susie K. Matt, I went, oh, yeah, of course, that's him. Then I just gave him this hug and I don't think he was really anticipating it. And I was like, oh my God, I feel like a child again when you're hugging someone so much bigger than

you. I only really noticed that he's tall now. I got used to it very quickly. It's when we step into lifts and it's a small and close space and you have to crane your head right. So I'm really fascinated by the production. What's actually required for an episode of Australian Story to be commissioned in the first place? Well, for my money, it involves a personal story.

And I think that's from the outset. I remember having that first conversation with Luke where he told this full circle story of being this gentle person who was really interested in the story. And then being left with what the hell do I do with this once it's all over and having to sort of reinvent himself and make peace with his past, that was deeply appealing to

me. And it wasn't just about those glory years of the Chicago Bulls, but it was this full circle story. So I thought that that was excellent. We talk about the wow and the now. And I guess that was an expression coined by our original producer, Mara. Mara Blasic. And it's about having a story that makes you go, oh my goodness, that's just amazing. But also having

relevance in modern times too. And Luke's story for me ticked every box. What do you think Greg? It was the sort of universality of Luke's story. When the funny thing is, I actually can't now remember a time before the story. It's possible. I didn't know who Luke was. I remember Caitlin mentioning the last dance. So I'd sing on Netflix advertised. But I hadn't watched it. So

I wasn't a basketball fan. Not even a sports fan. And thinking, why would I watch it in episodes of basketball, watched it and was just grouped and then realized there's so much drama in these stories. And then you look at Luke. And it's just that human story of someone having to fundamentally change who they are in order to achieve great goals. And then what do you

do with that when you change to you are? How do you prepare yourselves for diving deep into a particular story, some person's life and what they've done and get the motivation to immerse yourself in their world for a period of time. Have many months it might take. Very easy to become fascinated by someone's story. I've never found that a problem. I think people are fascinating. And

you wouldn't do a strange story on someone who wasn't fascinating if their story wasn't interesting. I find it very easy to become gripped by the detail. As I said at the introduction, it's a narrationless series. We hear from among others Sam and Griffin who are Luke's brothers. We hear from Sue, his mom, Richard, his dad. Also Anna. He's wife and his former wife, Kelly. What sort

of methods were employed when you were conducting those interviews to get the best out of the talent on camera? I don't think I really employ any methods. I just like to have a good chat. Try and make people feel relaxed and comfortable that I'm not in there to attack them or anything like that. I'm there to get the best out of them. And to be honest,

everybody who we interviewed for this story was what we call in the business of a really good talent. Everybody was. They're all really well spoken. That's one of the joys of doing this program. I found writing the script. You've really got so many articulate charismatic people who can tell a story. Often it's just letting them talk, just sitting back and letting them tell the story. They

weren't a whole lot of questions. You're a different Luke, Caitlin. He told and told his story really, really well. You must be a part of his personality. Well, I felt your family wasn't giving you enough. You wasn't performing well enough. You had to give your beautiful. He did. Yes. Yes. I remember during that interview, he was getting a bit frustrated within himself. It was really interesting.

It was a really interesting interview. Greg wrote the script on this one. So he was the one who went back and looked at the interviews that I did. But I think we just launched right into it. I found him very, very forthcoming. He thought about it a lot. He had a message that he really wanted to give. He wanted to do a good job. I think

where he came a little bit on stock was that he got to a point where he went, I'm sick of talking about myself. I'm embarrassed to be talking about myself so much. I don't think he likes being the center of attention. So I think there was a little bit of inattention about that concept of just putting himself out there in this way that he had to

resolve for himself. One giant leap features none other than Michael Jordan himself, which is incredible to have his involvement with the production. How on earth did you manage to secure Michael Jordan quite a coup d'assadillise understatement of the century? Sometimes which more people realize what to do was I think among the general, you see, audience and stink like Jordan. I think I found most gratifying about

Twitter was how many people made that point like how did you get back to doing it? How do we get Michael Jordan? It was hard. It comes down to Luke's relationship with all these people. I think possibly people feeling some regret that he wasn't in the last dance looking back at it and feeling maybe to write that wrong. Certainly in terms of the other people. There

was no problem getting them. Michael was a little bit harder. Do you want to tell the story? Have we got Michael? I always say that Luke should get a researcher credit on this story because we wouldn't have got any of those guys if it hadn't been for Luke. Emailing them, calling them, texting them, saying, hey, I'm doing this thing. I trust these people. I really want

you to be involved. All the other guys feel and Steve and Scotty were always going to do it. Michael had said originally that he was open to us. And then when we put in the formal bid to his manager, we got a no. And I rang a little considerable Michael said no. He he sent Michael an email. And I guess it was. It was very personal

and Michael agreed to do it straight away. He was just so generous in his interview. I was really taken aback about how generous he was and giving and forthcoming. It's a real career highlight having done that interview because I was so nervous beforehand. Greg and I were freaking out for weeks. We weren't resting until we got him in that interview chair. We just always thought, oh,

he's so busy. He'll have some meeting and New York or whatever. I was sure he was going to wake up that morning and decide that that need to turn up for an Australian entry program. And he would have known that here we were Australians who wanted to ask him why Luke Longley wasn't in the last dance. Would he feel defensive about that? I was a nervous

wreck before I did that interview. And in fact, Luke had called me a couple of hours beforehand to talk about it. Now I look back at him. I was like he was coaching me in a way and giving me a bit of a game plan. But it was, you don't need to go hard on this man. He will give you everything that you need. He will

talk. He will be forthcoming. But if he feels backed into a corner, you will not get what you want. Just let him speak. I don't think I would have been hostile anyway. But I was thinking as he walked into frame and he sat down and we started doing the interview. At a certain point I went, this man is really happy to be here. He's got some

things that he wants to say. And I'm going to stop being nervous and I'm just going to really enjoy this moment of interviewing Michael Jordan. He was laughing. He was smiling. He was, you know, insightful. And he was just delightful actually. I remember thinking, gee, Luke was right in that advice too. Let's just fantastic to hear. Thank you for the detailing that. How did you connect

with him from Australia to where he was based in the US? For all the interviews in the US, we did the same way. We'd get a local crew. And then in most cases, Kate would ask the questions via Zoom, as only. So that set up that is looking straight at us. And that worked really well. Your audio problems occasionally. They must have thought that I was

this mad woman on the end of the phone in Australia, because I did have trouble hearing them. So I would kind of peer into the screen to try and lip read what they were saying. So I didn't necessarily get every single word. It is not an ideal way of doing an interview, but yeah, I was really thrilled with the result. And it was interesting for me

to actually see those interviews, edit it up, going, well, it looks like they're actually engaging with me and that they're actually connecting with me in a way. It was a bit difficult at times. I definitely comes across really well on screen. And it's just fantastic to see the caliber of guests that you had to talk about Luke Longley and we'll get off the topic of Jordan

in a moment. But how did you go with time restraints as far as his available? We asked for 30 minutes and it was quite funny because Phil Jackson, I think we'd asked for an hour and right on about an hour, I still had three questions to go. And he was like, aren't you done by now? And I'm like, three more questions. Just hang out for three

more questions. So I felt like I'd worn out my welcome with that interview. And then with the Scotty Pippin interview, we said half an hour. And again, I went a little bit too long. I was like, what's the problem? I was like, I'm not going to be a long and I felt like I'd worn out his interview. So Greg was joking. Will you get the trifecta

with Michael Jordan? I was determined not to go over length. And I was keeping my eye on that clock. And at 29 minutes, I was like, thank you, Michael. I'm done. Thank you so much. And he said, are you sure you don't need anything else from me? And I was like, oh, wow. Isn't that so nice and so generous? Thank you very much for sharing those

details. It just makes me smile from ear to ear. Because of any of your 40-chaminy hours, would you have had roughly compared to what has to be edited into the final product? Because of these people, the caliber of the talent, a lot of the interviews were shorter. I think all of them except Phil Jackson, we told them 30 minutes and moralist, fuck to that. Then with

the family, they'd be a little bit longer. So, and that all adds up over the past. It wasn't unwieldy. Some stories we do, there aren't longer interviews. We're talking hours and hours. And also this story in hell. We have as many sequences as we often do because access to difficult because the borders were shut for a start, looks a busy guy. So it was hard to

get time. It was fantastic. The paintmen got to go and spend a few days with him in Western Australia. And I think when we talked about trust earlier on, I think that was really important to actually be able to spend some proper time with him. But look, yeah, many, many hours get crunched down to in this case one hour of time. He lives in the Denmark

area, which is maybe 400 kilometers south of Perth. How did you find that true? Well, it was great. Well, we flew into Perth and we did the interviews with his brothers, Sam and Griff and his dad Rick and his ex-wife Kelly. That's why I thought it was lovely that Kelly was prepared to be interviewed and she did a lovely interview. And we've laughed off Lily and

his daughter. So we did those interviews and then Mark Smith, the cameraman and I drove down to Denmark. It was lovely because Luke's wife Anna Gehr is a TV chef. She just looked after us so well. She cooked us all these beautiful meals. We shared so many meals with them. It's such an amazing location. We went quad bike riding with Luke on the beach. Mark Smith

says I just had a smile on my face from ear to ear the whole time. And I think it was because it's as executive producer, I stood up my desk a lot. I'm on the computer, I'm on the phone. And I loved being on the road producer. So for me to get back out in the field again and to be working with people who supported the

project and wanted to be involved and we're giving their all to it. It was a real treat. It's why we do this job. And I just really enjoyed it. You've been with Australian stories since the very beginning, which is going back to 9 and 96. And Greg, I think you've been involved with Australian stories since 2013. How has your relationship grown over that period of time?

And how often have you collaborated with Kate Lohan? The kind of labours been fantastic. Kate and some of those interviews, love to build producing. I love scripting and archive research. So it's been really good that way. There was some fantastic footage of Luke at New Mexico. And you also unearthed some great photos. So promo photo of his team, where they're sitting in a library or looking

like bookworms. And just great to see some highlights of Luke dominating some of those college games. How difficult was it to get access to the footage that you use there from New Mexico. And also, do you mind us elaborating on the deal? Well, then you had to work out with the NBA to get access to their footage. Well, the New Mexico stuff was like, Luke had

highlights, DVD, someone had done for him many, many, many years before he gave that to us. And that's fantastic. Because he was such a different player back then. He was so much more ad-job. I love seeing that stuff too because he was dumping. He was leaping. He was just a completely different player. You can see why the scouts were so excited by it in college. The

NBA was that hard. The NBA, I think only the Olympic Committee are probably the other people that have been as tricky to work with in terms of just the restrictions and the cost of footage. It's expensive. There's two episodes. But one hour we end up licensing five minutes of footage. That's very hard. In the end, we use a lot of photos to get there. On Monday

morning gone, Luke guessed it on New's breakfast. He mentioned the possibility that his good mate, Dennis Rodman, may appear in part two next week. Are you able to give us any detail? We hope you're involved in these videos at all on the likelihood of Robbins involvement. What timeframe do you have to actually get this done or have the episode tied up before part two is locked

in ready to go next Monday? We tried to get Dennis. He was down filming reality TV series in Mexico. So I contacted the executive producer down there. And she was going to throw in a few questions for us when she did some filming. But it all fell apart sadly. So I didn't end up getting my interview. We could have done it. But we do keep working

right up until Friday to get there on Monday. That's why we always squeeze in little things don't we? We are already over length. We're supposed to be 30 minutes. And I think we're sitting at what? So we'll have to plead for forgiveness from ABC TV presentation at some time. But it's so good. We just don't want to lose anything. Do you think there'll be any opportunity

to have some bonus features that might appear somewhere online? Could that be something that we'd say is a possibility down the track? We do a Facebook short form video. So I think there's a little bit of extra vision that you might not see in the story in that. And we are talking about releasing the Michael Jordan interview in full at some point after part two goes

to where? Well, that sounds very interesting. Yeah, because I had two moments in the Michael Jordan interview that I loved. The first one was when I'd been talking to Luke beforehand. He said something about Michael Jordan's carnivorous leadership. And I said to him, I'm not going to ask Michael Jordan if his leadership was carnivorous. And he goes, no, go on, ask him, ask him. So I

did. And Michael Jordan just racks up laughing through it all and goes, yeah, probably or something like that. We didn't actually use that in the story, but it was a really nice moment. But my most favorite moment is right at the end. My last question is, so you're a busy man, Michael, why did you do this interview for Luke? And for me, it is such a

nice answer. It's where we wrap up things at the end of part two. I won't tell you what it is, but I thought it was a really nice moment. What did you think, Greg? Oh, yeah, it was beautiful. It was unexpected. I thought it was just love it. He can talk about Luke the way he did. You've worked the appetite beautifully for part two. Clearly, the

last dance thoughts on his largely glaring omission from that. You mentioned his daughter, Lily earlier, okay, so we'll get to hear from a few more family members in part two. Yeah, Lily's in it. And his older daughter Claire, isn't it very briefly? Watching the last dance with him and his stepson Jackson's in it too. And Aaron Baines. We got him just before he jumped on the

plane to Japan. Oh, fantastic. I think we ended up doing 20 interviews for it. I guess the part of the story we couldn't do justice to was his role with the national team, the boomers. You have to tell the story that works the best. So that's a shame. I know how important that part was to Luke. I've heard him in interviews talk about the fact that

he sacrificed. That's one of these Chicago Bulls rings for an Olympic medal. So I know how much it means to him. Definitely says a lot. Is there anything at all that we haven't touched on that you'd like to mention before you close the conversation? You asked the question, how long does it take to put it together? As much as I've been talking to Luke since July

last year, we didn't really start production till what may be February. And Greg, you didn't really come on board after finishing your last story on Jennifer Robinson until what month was that? April, maybe. We have put it together quite quickly. Yeah, April. Yeah, it was once we really hit the ground, once we really got ducks in a row, it wasn't like that long. A lot of

logistics in this one because there's so much odyssey is normally. That's quite hard to organize people who don't have a lot of time dealing with managers, dealing with Steve Kerb is in a COVID bubble. So that was tricky. We could only use his teams crew and find them somewhere on the road where he could step out for half an hour and do the interview. So yeah,

logistics were tricky. It was a Hickulean effort from Greg. I actually really love talking about this story. I think it's my favorite story ever. I've just really, really enjoyed it. It was nice to hear Luke talking about it as well on radio. As I said earlier, he was really ready to talk. He thought about this a long time and knew what he wanted to say and

was ready to talk. Just wanted to find the right people to talk to. Clearly he's enjoying this moment and I'm so glad he is. And the last thing I want to say is I think the last dance is magnificent. I think it's a masterpiece. The way Jason Hayer wove together all those competing storylines. I just thought it was absolutely brilliant. Very much inspired us to do

what we're doing now. I just wanted to shout out to Andrew Cook, our editor because he's a huge basketball fan, possibly unlike Caitlin and myself. He's always been an NBA freak. I know he's a huge personal interest in it. And he's just done a beautiful job. A beautiful job. Such a beautiful year. It's an episode. I'm so excited to see part two next Monday. Thanks again,

Caitlin and Greg for your time. I know you're incredibly busy at the moment. And I really appreciate you joining me today and best of luck with part two. And of course, continue success with Australian story. Thank you. Well, thank you. And thank you, Adam, for your research help for us in it all. I know that I'm regular, I'd on you from time to time to find

bits and pieces. Didn't he? It was very useful. You're most welcome. I just appreciate the opportunity to be a small part of it. And I'm really happy to be able to do this. I'm really happy to be able to do this. I'm really happy to be able to do this. I'm really happy to be able to do this. I'm really happy to be able to do

this. I'm really happy to be able to do this. I'm really happy to be able to do this. I'm really excited for Luke and his family as well that his story has a chance to be shared with a national and even an international audience. So thanks again. Thank you. You're very welcome. And thank you. Bye. Bye. See you, Adam. Thanks for listening. I welcome your interaction

with the show. Tap the microphone icon on my website to send me a voicemail. You can suggest discussion topics or guests you'd like to hear conversations with. Time now to share another great review from a fan of the show. Thanks to Dave O. Birmingham via Apple podcasts in Great Britain. It's titled One for the Real Who Peds and is rated five stars. It reads, Thanks for

your continued support. If you had a review, I'd love to read it out on a future episode. Your ratings and reviews are one of the best ways to support the podcast. If you enjoy the show, please tell your basketball-loving friends about it. Word-and-mouth recommendations are truly worth their weight in gold. Start today with my podcast and subscribe to my free NBA history newsletter. You will see

exclusive details on upcoming episodes, future guests to appear on the show, and more. Sign up via my website or simply email me in all NS at gmail.com. You can follow my show in various ways. Search in all NS, three words on your listening app of choice. The show is available on most platforms. Check the podcast archive for plenty more episodes with a great range of guests.

My Instagram and Twitter handle is at in all NS. Search in all NS on YouTube and Facebook too. Join me next time for another edition of the show.