Dave Cowens: Hall of Fame legend, 2x NBA Champion,

I'd pick it that he would have been proud of as a soccer guy. That ball went like this, like this. Just went, wanting up and to stand, and tech me through me. So, who's the next person? Who's like the best kick I ever did for a basketball? Oh my goodness. I had it. Oh, reacts. He just being out of here. So I went, got me a

beer, a hot dog, and set up with the top of the stands and once I balled, yeah. Then you are in our stadium right now. You're talking in the basketball. You're talking great teams. You're talking great individual players. He picks it off and there's number 20s. And of course Johnny goes nuts. I'm just trying to go up there and play my game. I have no idea

what you're talking about. I don't like anybody. I'm not a peeper person. Grant, you made the pass. Yes. You catch the ball. Yes. All the stars were aligned and all the muscles spalled at the right time. And I was out of the ground and throw one down. I was saving that as a surprise for you. And now, introducing your host for in all airness, I'm Ryan.

Welcome to episode 125. Thanks for joining me. Today, I'm excited to welcome basketball Hall of Fame legend Dave Callins. The first NBA most valuable player to appear on the podcast. Huge thanks to great friend of the show Bob Ryan for connecting me with Dave. In this fun, insightful and wide-ranging conversation, Dave discusses his days at Newport Catholic high school. And run-ins with the assistant principal who've

also doubled as his basketball coach. Dave details his recruitment to Florida State University where he was a four-year standout with the Seminals. He recounts an intriguing letter. He wrote to Celtic legend. And then since nutty royals coach Bob Coozy, ahead of the 1970 NBA draft. Dave was a busy man in the lead up to his rookie debut with the Celtics. During the week, he played in

Boston's neighborhood basketball league. And on weekends commuted to New York City to play in a famed Rucker League. For good measure, Dave teamed with Pistol Pete Maravitch and stole the show at the Maurice Stokes Memorial basketball game. Of course, there's plenty of NBA and Celtics discussion, which had about the two titles Dave won with Boston in the 1970s. How he prepared for games and battled with

all-time great centers that often had a significant heart advantage. We haven't found time to talk about Larry Legend too. This conversation primarily covers Dave's on court days. Hopefully he'll return to the show and discuss his post-playing career and life after basketball. This truly is a candidate for my favorite episode yet. I'm going to give him for the connect with Mr. Cowans. This conversation certainly would not

have happened without Bob's continued generosity. Towards the end of the episode, I'll share another great podcast review. If you can spare a moment, please add your review via our podcasts. It'll be my approach. Show notes for this episode and access to a huge archive of past episodes are available at inallannas.com. Now on to the show. My guest today occupies Rarified Air. He was NBA rookie the

year in 1971. All-Star game and league MVP in 1973. And as a two-time NBA champion, he's an eight-time All-Star, a three-time All-MBA selection and a Hall of Fame legend, Dave Cowans. Thanks for joining me. It's great to have you on the show today. Big thanks to a close friend of yours Bob Ryan for helping us connect. You participated in many times. You were doing sports as

a youngster and in high school you were doing things like running, other field events, high jump and football just to name a few. Before we actually get into your basketball journey, what other sports took your fancy as a young boy, Dave? Well, I was lucky to have a lot of friends that love sports. They were all a little bit older than I was. We did everything.

We played football when it was football season and baseball, basketball and a lot of swimming. I played in the Ivy and Judd Bale's States and whenever it was, I looked at the track and feel that was a lot of fun. Because you were kind of on your own, there wasn't really no coach easy route. You just kind of worked on do whatever you were doing with

the guys that were performing and to save events. But just kind of a juky little kid had a lot of energy. I wanted to blow around a lot. You're a part of a rather large family. I think there were six of you in the family, is that correct? Where did you fall within the range of the hierarchy there of the kids? That was the second always.

For what I've read as well, you made the freshman basketball team, but stopped playing after about a month or so and didn't rejoin your high school team, which was Newport Catholic until your junior season, when I believe that your would be coach Jim Conner. Notice the significant growth spurt that you had after your sophomore season. How quickly did basketball become your primary focus and what was

it like to jump up in height? In between that sophomore and junior season and start playing basketball? I've read a lot of biographies of players and athletes. It seems like they all had a growth spurt sometime in a high school. I was the same way. Because I was very active, I maintained a lot of my coordination as I got taller. Or shouldn't to do that. I

asked if Bale was just another game to play. It was just all about the love of competition and that was a good time. Beaty knew people, the challenges of playing against people. Nobody really knows what they're doing under a young person and play. Just out there trying to figure it out. Hopefully you get shows at end, we played the games with your narrow you through the

best you can. So I really didn't think about basketball as a primary sport until I got a scholarship for basketball. I was a player of the Florida State. That's kind of when I stopped participating in other sports. First of all, I went to college. So really you work on playing these sports at college because you go into school and do anything. That's when I really started

focusing on becoming a better basketball player, a better specimen. Be stronger, the game weight and doing the things you need to do to be able to compete against the upgraded competition that you're playing against. When I was in high school, I was probably 6619D when I graduated. I was about the same size a little bigger than most everybody I played against. But when I got to

college, I mean there was a guy, 610, 69, you know, 68 and a little bit bigger and older. So you say, well, we're going to step up my game. What can I do? Then you figure, well, better get a little bit stronger. That's what I worked on that as well. Your blue color plan. I'm sure fan favorite, an autumn, right of the lake and the Celtics,

of course. Where do you think that intensity and that blue color, NYCHA came from? I think people are self motivated more than they are motivated from an external source. And that was true for me. I just never wanted to be embarrassed. While I was playing, I think as a kid, you never want to be embarrassed. That's the worst thing you can do. And everybody's playing at

the same level for the most part. So I'd rabbit you towards that sport. And then when I was out there, it's like, I just want to ever much fun as I possibly can. And I got to the point where what I wanted my goal was I never wanted the coach that had a reason to take me out of the game. I was not a very good

bench player. If I wasn't out, I wouldn't have played it all the time. I can understand that. Your coach at the time in high school, Jim Conner, he was also the assistant principal of your school. Did you ever have any clashes or the honor off the court because of that? Oh, with time. I was scanning was a wippy boy. You know, as a new guy. And

I remember out to want to get a great play. I played pretty good game and literally in practice. You came in and brought the team together. He waxed me up one side of the head and out the other. Everything he said at Calum's goes in one ear and out the other. We had that kind of a relationship. But he was a military guy. That was his

background. He was an assistant principal. So that base fall coach, that basketball coach, athletic director, you know it. And a Catholic high school with all boys was eight hundred and fifty of us. You had to have some kind of a four-terrain presence. He was our boss. He's a busy man too by the sound of things. As a high school senior, you have reached 13 points and

20 rebounds per game and helped lead your thoroughbreds to 29 and three record. You're the ninth region champion before bowing out in the 1966 Kentucky State High School tournament. From what I've read, that final game was a freedom hall in Louisville, and played in front of all my 15,000 fans, which is quite amazing to hear. What sort of springs to mind when you get reminded of

that senior season at Newport Catholic Dive? Well, we disappointed because we thought we had a chance to win the tournament. Our school had never won the State tournament. We asked you all up to that point. We just ran into a tee. Glasgow, I believe it was. They were just incredible. I think the guy was guard. I don't think he missed a shot. He was nine for

nine. They all was free to index game. They played. They went back to Earth and we get killed. But it gets us. They played extremely well. And also our best player, Terry Sandfaw, see over 20 points again. He was a point guard. He had a fever, like a 102 fever. And he was sick, but he played, but he was not even close to being what he

normally would be. Now, number one time he was almost dribbling the wrong way on the pitch. But that was at the same time that University of Kentucky was playing Texas L. Parasol. When they had the first all black team playing all white team that's been documented. I forget the name of it, but it's been made into a movie. I remember driving back on the bus and

listening to their game on radio in Kentucky. Of course, you're interested because it's University of Kentucky. Place to give my ignorance. But were you recording? I was recruited at all by Kentucky. I was not. I had about 10 offers from different, the Visitor One schools, mostly right in the area that I lived. We saved the University of Cincinnati, Morehead, Murray, Eastern Kentucky, Western Kentucky, and Louisville,

Memphis, and Christian Brothers. A lot of the visit to schools. Balls stayed in the ones like that. And then Florida stayed. Remember the first time I was out of play. I went to I flew down the Florida State and visited the campus. The coach, you Dar was a Kentucky data. Even clearly pretty hard. So I decided to go out of state and go to Florida stay.

They had ever really the basketball program to speak up. So matter of fact, they had always been a co-wear institution. I think it was in the late 40s right after World War II. With the GI bill, they had the ever place for all these guys to come back and go to school so that they'd make Florida stay to Korea before that it was school for women.

So when I went there, I think they were always with 15, 16 years from band and all women's school. They were building a program. That's one of the things I liked about it because it wasn't any pressure to play after Kentucky grades or West Unciilid, Louisville. I had these other places. I was just go down there, go have a good time. I was like six girls

for every adult campus. I was an awesome experience. It certainly sounds like that's a pretty good ratio. That one. It's like for you, Leo. It's awesome. It is a beautiful country here in Australia. One of the reasons I mentioned Kentucky was that I came across some interesting parallels between you and a Kentucky great Dan Isle. Yeah. Particularly your data births are exactly the same date. Exactly.

The year obviously was a great player with Kentucky and gives a six time old star in the ABA before leagues emerged. He joined the NBA. There, this is all. He was from Illinois and he was there. Guy that they wanted. He was a great, great high school players or a lot of points. Unlike me, 13 points again. Not anything you're going to write over about. You

could say born on the same day. I looked at his career. He played. Drawing his Thai career almost every year. He played it. Every game almost. I think you're in best league. Maybe 10 games out of hundreds and hundreds that he plays. He was an iron man for sure. Exactly. The term I was thinking of. I'm an as well. Now in late May of 1966, you

signed a grant in aid scholarship with Florida State. As you mentioned, there was numerous colleges that were trying to recruit you. Pew Durham was the soon to be head coach. I think he was an assistant at the time when he was recruiting you. You were. How did you find that transition to your first season playing at Florida State? I believe at that time, freshman one, I

would apply on the varsity team, but you were part of the baby seminals that were called. We the freshman team. I think we played a gig. We played junior colleges and the freshman team of other schools that are varsity teams for once I got down there. I didn't like it at all. I want to go all. I was like around September. I go because we went

early. We're on a try master system. So who is the junior down there in all of this? It was really hot and tall. Yes. I'm Kentucky, but it's really hot. I see Florida. They had in the dormitory. And I liked all the guys, but I really was homesick. I had a girlfriend and I left back a new port that was right back and forth. Oh, I

miss you. I miss you. I miss you. I'm out of here. And I was ready to go by call. I just did a regular job, and do whatever. But that things worked out. I think I'm going to have that. And I think I'm going to be able to do that. I'm going to go back. I think I'm going to go back. I'm going to be a

home sick. I'm going to be a home sick. I have a girlfriend and I'm going to go back. I go back. I'm going to be a home sick. I don't have to go back. I'm going to be a home sick. I'm going to be a home sick. I made it to Susie on my mind that I need to be going to college. And I got to

go straight up to journey. Play basketball. So I stayed there and went on to Merrill. I enjoyed it after that. Once I get finished with the whole separation issue, it must be tough to move. Completely turn out the part of the country and then try and set yourself up there in college. Yeah, it is, but I think about a lot of guys, they get drafted and

went to Vietnam. They had the elbow on worse than I actually. And that was a voluntary. That was when they forced to do that because they had a draft. So considering considering what I was going through, there was nothing compared to what those guys in the old. They were obviously conscripted. So yeah, fair point and it could context for sure. You studied criminology at Florida State.

What got you into that area of interest by the joy social sciences and then they named behavior. I kid the took up criminality. I knew I'd stay out of trouble and get on trouble. I was able to do my coursework and still do basketball and all the other things that was going on. I took a lot of different humanities courses, things like that. But it was

a course load that I could handle. I was an okay student. I was out of grade student, but I was an okay student. If I applied myself, I could get passing grades. We're looking through some newspaper reports. I came across a guy that took place. On December 16th of 1967, you had 24 points and pulled down a career high 31 rebounds for FSU in a game

against Louisiana State. And their star, the great pistol Pete Maravitch. He had 42 points in this game, but your seminals had the win. There's 130 to 100 as a consolation game in Milwaukee. Milwaukee classic, I believe it was called. Does that actual game reside somewhere within your memory bank stuff? All sure. Obviously a lot of miss shots. And Pete had no conscience. I always thought all

my teammates ain't by play the guest. I'm not mad at you if you shoot this because that's it. My bailout would now I'm gonna get a rebound. I'm happy you've missed an actual. You're doing a 30 point score. Biggest score from your seminals team in school history to that point. Your paths would cross again, going forwards with pistol Pete, and we'll get to that a bit

later on. I also read the school record books for the seminals. And from your soft more through senior seasons, you led the team in points and rebounds. My favorite stat was probably that you had 65 double doubles out of 78 games with the varsity team. Not surprisingly, you're the career leader. You're not category. And your name is lit it throughout the record books of Florida state.

If you get enough finance supply, you ought to get a double double. I mean, it's not there. I'm not. I really like your price to it. You think about all you got to do is score one basket, a quarter, and the pros. And you get one or two rebounds every quarter. And you got a double double lock at the minimum. We start that. First of all,

of your skill, perhaps, but my skill level in social. I money six foot one, I'm not overly tall in that respect. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but your soft more season in 1968 was the team's first appearance in the NCAA tournament. You went 19 and eight before losing in the first round to East. I think by about 10 points, what do you remember of

that only trip due to circumstances we'll talk about in a moment to the big dance at the NCAA tournament? I forget exactly where we played, but we ran into a guy they'd always slipped from that school and he was a very good player in the big, great game in the NBA. We did play well, I did play very well, but that's just one of those things.

I think the young and your learnings remove a lot. The other thing about it was we never got a chance to go back to the tournament after that. Unfortunately, there was some sanctions or probation placed on the school. Nothing to do with you personally, of course, but I think it's more to do with some things that happened with possible recruits. It was a tragedy that the

NCAA would treat their kids like myself or teammates or just competing. It's all we wanted to do was play. We wanted to play against the best all the time, but we weren't interested in all the best straight-of-things. We were just kids wanting to play. And they took that away from us. I never forget what we were doing. I never did that because we did do it.

They were all, why should we get punished for something that our coach does or administrator does or whatever on some minor fractions. But if you look at it from a political standpoint, the NCAA, the NCAA wanted to sometimes make an example out of it, say, all their tough and you better hold the line, because we weren't independent school. So we had no big tent commission or

ACC or whatever, big 12 to represent us and to fight for us. We were just all by ourselves. So we were easy to get picked on. And I went looking, I like to do some research and get confers and I thought that that tournament, it seemed like the NCAA were putting independent schools or small schools on probation more than the big schools like Kentucky and Florida

and Michigan or Ohio State. And I'm telling you, those were the schools that were breaking all the rules. And I know that for a fact, because I played with God is the one to those schools and they told me all the stuff that they got for free and I didn't get anything. So they got to play. They got the pennies. We didn't get any banning and

we didn't get to play. The whole thing had just started playing and still stricts on my crawlers you can tell. Well, yeah, it's totally understandable too. And I've had previous guests on the show who have talked about dodgy dealings that could have gone on behind the scenes. Did give your listeners the young people a little perspective. We did not have special meals. We did not have

special place to stay. We traveled by bus to a lot of games. The most interesting thing is that the locker room was the same as all the other kids did for the piggy courses in the gym. We didn't have special lockers. We didn't have anything fancy at all. We ate with everybody we live with other students. So we were as a bunch of student athlete as

you could be as an athlete there on scholarship. Today it's so totally different because they get so many things to help them prepare tutors. We did that tutors. We didn't have any of that stuff. So you look at that and you say, okay, you're living that life. You're doing what you're supposed to do. Going to practice going to class and blah blah blah. Do what you

got to do. And then you get kind of lost. What's the deal? Yeah, it's saying it's terribly unfair. What do you make actually of the recent rulings at the NCAA? I have put in place where players can now earn money off their nine or lockness. The whole idea of amateurism. When you look up amateurism, he says people do it. Play as a pastime. I don't think

anybody in college on scholarship was doing it as a pastime. This is a financial deal. You have to look at what is the value of a college education today. So if you go and you know what is it? 35, 40,000 dollars a year. Okay. You're getting that right. You're not going to that. That's what you're getting. You get books, you get room, you get food, you

get to try what you're doing on the different things. And then you can always spend so much time in the jail. The coaches can only have it. So if you go look at it, you're going like, it's like a part time job. Up at the 35, 40 dollars an hour. Over the course of the season. You say, one other kid at school working at McDonald's, but

they the way to school or cleaning rooms and all the time. They tell or do whatever they do is make it 35, 40 dollars an hour. You got to point it in perspective. You know what I'm saying? What the really big thing I think is is that they try to compare with the coaches salaries on. So what the players are doing. Now at the coaches salaries

like $100, $200,000 a year, it wouldn't have this big blue. But because they'll make a million. Then all of a sudden they go, well, coaches making a lot of money. It's how come the players are making 35 dollars an hour. You know what I'm saying? That's where it is. I actually hadn't thought about it from that perspective. You write some really good points. They, they've almost

stood in school right now. Then I look at these athletes, they're walking around campus. And they see if they got nice things, they got it cars, they got whatever. And I'm going to say it, it's anything wrong with that. But it's, it's different than what a normal student by the end. And then the student learns that, oh, over and above their scholarship, they're going to get

paid. Exform on. They say, well, what about me? I'm a student here too. Worse of fairness of just, why do I want to go even watch these people play? Because it's, it's almost too much. It's over the top. That's going to happen a little bit, but especially if you don't win. If you have a bad seasons in that place, going to say, hey, look at that.

You know what I mean? These guys are not concentrating it up there. We got big heads. They get too much too fast. All those arguments are out of society. Disintensive. Your collegiate career, our red numerous articles that talked about different jobs that you had during the summer or throughout your college, tenure, where you were doing all kinds of manual labor and all sorts of different things.

That's what I do. There's a labor under the tutorial about I like hard work. I had jobs working for a book, 25 hour manpower, they can cart on a book shopping center, washing windows and a place to pick a rocks out of a hill, making eight bucks a day, which was something to do. And then I had jobs that I'll work in and a still screening

place where you got Boston behind you. You'd have a jacket. You take me there, boom, they put the stuff on it and send it out. You got unload trucks and put things in a different whole for the people that had to skill jobs, which was running the printing machine. So I had jobs like that. The best job I had was as an iron worker. That was

a good job. That paid me over five dollars and I'll, which was a lot better than one or two or three dollars. You know, are you working on large buildings or what's that involved? Do you just put it up the structure of the building just the steel? You're just putting a steel up. So you're doing things on the ground, get ready, you got the big lifts

and you got the cables. They're taking the iron and going once floor to time and you're involved with doing that and climbing it up and then it takes you around and somebody comes along and connects something to something and somebody else comes along and puts some decking on and they welded out. Then you go to the next level or you put some metal stairs and a

stairway in a building or you're working a place to make sure you're working. So it's always this kind of nice teamwork deal and I really enjoyed that was the best job ever. Yeah. That would have suited you perfectly. I guess heading into your professional career and being such an integral part of a team in Boston. And must have also helped your physical conditioning to out imagine.

Well, I did, but when I was still living in a building, I was like, what's the best job ever? I'm at home at the time. Three days a week, I would go to a place to work out after work, lift weights and do my drills and stuff like that and then go home and have a little meal, take a nap, go out, drink a bunch of

beer, get up early in the morning, do the work and do it all over again. Oh, that's fantastic. You got to do it when you're young because right now I couldn't do that. Other could I. I'm 46 and I'll be on that myself. Good memories for sure. Now, just in terms of the seminal's probation in your junior season, you went 18 and eight as a senior.

You were 23 and three. So really emphasizes how sort of unfair. I guess it was given how great a season you had to finish your career in college that you didn't have the opportunity to take part in the postseason. We're going a little bit lucky. We probably don't want an asian championship because we beat Jacksonville. Let be does like four. We beat them both six. There

was always one other game. And that was the ESEA LA in the finals. So we were getting up to big now with artist skill or we were going to have to be probably anybody if we were on for game. Artist skill more is an incredible player. Obviously a hall of fame. There's a big man. My wife and I were very fortunate enough to meet him briefly

last year. We're in Chicago for the all star weekend 2020 and at the legends brunch just as we were leaving. We saw artists a few meters ahead of us. We had some photos with him and he's a very big man seven foot two. He beats me feel. And you're six nine. I'm sick. I'm incredible. Incredible. When you would also meet in the pro's you've got artist

skill more as you got your wilt chivalens. You've got all these guys who are considerably taller than you. Yet you're playing the center position and you're trying to hold your own and did so more often than not. What sort of tactics or skills did you try and employ to to battle these guys who are so much taller than here in many instances Dave. Sometimes where there's

a clear difference. There's a lot of differentiation between size and skill sets and all that stuff. I might have a harder talk deal with theirs. But they have a harder talk deal with mom because my skill set and everything is different than theirs. The worst thing is the play against goddess that are kind of the same as you. That's the hardest ones because there's no groove

to fit into or go advantage for you to a certain degree. So I didn't really think that I was going to be able to do it. I never think that I was an underdog playing against any of these big guys. But it all goes back to be fundamentally sound up to the coach who never want to take you out of the game or ever reason to

take you out of the game. So if I was that fundamentally sound that I could be able to deal with whatever they were going to bring. Now branded. They handed it to me quite a bit. All right. There wasn't like every game that I was up to their equal. But there were some gigs. They weren't up to me. I'm not a minor either. So it's just

the way it is in the game of basketball. But the whole thing is a thrill of competition. It's not going out and say, oh, this is what I'm going to do or have a plan to say. It seems like I got to do against a certain person. He's kind of know what their skill set is and what their favorite things to do are. What yours are,

what your strengths are. And you try to work that both times to your advantage. And if you're able to be strong enough to do it, you're going to have a good time. And you're going to have to deal with that to a certain degree that you got the speed and quickness and a skill so we can make a basket out of rebound and block out how

to play the team game and defense and position and all that. But it's a crime shooting. You never know what's going to happen. It I need to tell you, I didn't really go out thinking before a game. Oh, we got to win. And never thought about winning. I just thought about doing my best job as a player, doing my job. And then things that care them

so. Some fascinating insights. I really appreciate you sharing them with us, Dave. How advantageous do you think it was that you were left hand off again? It works both ways. But by go up the block is shot. And the guys right and okay, I'm on that right son of. But say, well, they could do it. But that he's right and I'm blocking by the, you know,

and I mean, he's got the same bad. He's got me from a defensive stand for Bob. A near was left and Willis Re was left down. Bob rules left. The Russell was left hand. Do quite a few players that were left hand. Lee as well. But I don't know if it made that very different. The main it's like you, you out to be able to contest

the show. I would both. Depending on what the angle is. Again, that goes into the preparation and trying to do the right thing. The best thing from a percentage standpoint as you go through the ball game. Just to put a ball on your college career, you left with averages of non-aim points. And 17.2 rebounds a game. And you can't really rank 11th all time in points

scored. And you're still number one overall in total rebounds. Not surprisingly. So a fantastic collegiate career. The NBA coverage at the time. We're talking about 1970 here was quite minimal. How familiar were you with the league as a whole just in the lead up to the 1970 NBA draft? Every boy, I always miss one year even college and four seasons. I know the pneumonia over a

Christian style. And they one time we slid to stay at the out of Florida, stayed over to Hollywood. There's been a few games. So we go over and stay at an hotel someplace. And I got the illness. So I missed one game because of my own patient. I'm proud of that. I played all the games and pretty much practiced all the practices. As far as that

NBA, I do very little about the NBA. The second NBA game. I was in it. I wasn't expecting that answer. I mean, I saw some on TV, but live. I was alive. So I had never really seen Wil Chamberlain play or to Barbara, but you Russell any of those guys. Well, we're all the guys I had to deal with. I had never seen them play. But

they had never said me play. So maybe it was short but fair. So what was the one guy that you did say? Well, I saw a Cincinnati Royal game where I was in grade school. We got to play before the Royal game and then at half time. So I was a big thrill. I don't remember really that game because I was just like 12 years old.

But then when I was at college, we had a game with Georgia Tech. Then the Atlanta Hawks played at the same gym and they were playing the Bucks with Chibar, Alcindor at the Tag. So as a team, we watched that game. And that was really the only game that I ever saw prior to going into the NBA. That's not into here. The 1970 NBA draft was

held in March and it was conducted through telephone apparently from our thread through the NBA New York office. Where were you on draft day and how did you hear that the Celtics had actually selected you as a player? I kind of knew what was going on because the ABA was around and they had a draft as well. The other league. I had signed a contract with

the NBA, which by we you shouldn't do. But that's what they were doing. And most of the agents. The agents, all their players, either what to the ABA or a little bit to the NBA. So it was like one of those agent league deals that they went after players. That's kind of how that worked out at the time. I didn't know that I was going to

get drafted by the solid. I knew that Cincinnati, because from that area in order to tuck you since I knew that they were going to draft me a ball was in that pick. And for the same reason that I wanted to go away. From whole to go to Florida stay. I didn't want to play for the royals and Cincinnati. I wanted to be somewhere else. And

I wrote Bob Coosie a letter prior to the draft. Employed him not to draft me. And how was that received by Bob? That's probably the only manner he ever got from a player saying don't draft. Especially if you got the fifth pick in the first round, which they hit. The Saudi picture at number four. And I did notice that Cincinnati were number five. They had been

over five. So they took Sam Lacey. And then in the second round, they took tidy archival. Hmm. I think he was a second pick. I've rolled in the second round. I think he was. He had true. Calvert Murphy was very fierce. So with Coonson was going to take me anyway. They did well. Well, that's very, very interesting to hear. You're not in 70 draft. Just had

some incredible players throughout. I was like, well, Tony Archibald have already mentioned Dan Issel would eventually come across to the NBA from the ABA. You've got other guys. Sam Lacey you mentioned Bob Lonea, Pistol Pete, Calvert Murphy, Charlie Scott, Randy Smith, Rudy Tom Johnovich. And the guy that you would be co-wrote the year with the Jeff Petrie of the trailblazers. Incredible array of talent from that

non-in 70 draft class. I think for this day, we have the balls in the whole vein from that. Yeah, it's a good point. I think there's eight of us that are involved. Just remarkable. Now in the days that followed the NBA draft, there was an incredible photo of you that appeared in the Boston Globe. I am out of two. I don't know if you even had

a chance to look at it, but you're holding like a magnifying glass. And you're studying what appears to be the contract. Are you signed with the Celtics? Do you remember the photo that I'm referring to and what is the context behind that? Oh, it's just a little deal. You know, somebody wanted to say that. They're looking to find print in the contract. But it was interesting.

It is telling because at that time, they weren't standardized. That'd be a contract. So you could negotiate every character. Every word in a contract. I remember we had whole paragraphs. Shriken. Now we wanted to say, listen, if I get hurt, I want to have the ability to get a second opinion. I just don't want to have the team doctor. Tell me whether I could play or

not or whether I've hurt because he's working for the team. I'd like to have somebody working for Dave. Because we're a unit that your management is a little different. That's just one example. The other way was kind of how you got paid insurance, the different things like that. But some of the was what you could participate in in the offsuit. So they say you can't take

any unnecessary risks to your goal. So you weren't looking for a job. You're not allowed to play hardball baseball. You weren't allowed to play tackle football. You were allowed to drive motorcycle. You were allowed to take fly and lessons. You were allowed to do a lot of different things. So you could negotiate those in and out. Get it all with this is something you really wanted

to do. Now, that'd be a contract. That's it. There is nothing negotiating. It is what it is. The unit agreed to it. And that's all there is to it. You can add some things to it. I believe, but for the most part, there's no editing out of the contract any longer. That's not even machinations about what could it be in those contracts. I had no idea

what the hell I was doing. You know, it's one of the first kind tracks I've ever seen. Then lawyers could not advertise. Now we advertise doctors advertise. But back then, doctors and lawyers could not advertise. It was against law. The guy that came down and visited me ran a laundromat and be able to do it. He was a guy that came down to talk to me

about signing up with this guy who was the lawyer. Then he worked for. You see what I'm saying? That guy I'm a deal. He was there with me. Like I said, the contract had already been basically done with the lead. But then you could add some things and then work on that going forward with the team itself. The NBA drop is held in March. But the

regular season didn't actually commence until mid-October. It was a late July article in the Boston Globe. It said that you were averaging about 24 points per game. And that you were a mainstay of the club with quote, you're passing and rebounding abilities. Apparently guys like Red Hourback, Tommy Hanson and Bob Coozy would occasionally drop in and watch the game. What was that experience like playing in

that league as a lady into your rookie season in the NBA? Just played at another pickup game like I had been doing my whole life. But then barely that I signed with the team. It seemed summer I went out and played in the Rucker League in New York and Harlem. I had done some bar and storming. I forget probably early March with Tidy Archibald, this agent

organized the project. I was playing games that upstate New York and I don't say Pennsylvania maybe. The way we play say the best high school players in a particular school district or whatever. Myself and I'll be Taylor and from Houston and Tidy Archibald. A few other guys went around playing four or five games. Then I also played the Marie Stokes game in the Cats Fools. Like

I said, I just want to play basketball. I'm a basketball guy. I'd love to play. Tommy from New York. He was from that area, the Brock's and he was a legend down there as a player. He grew up really fast. He did that much on the home line. He used to take care of kids. Bestie could. What equals a kid? He just grew up fast. I

really enjoyed playing with him. And then he. Some of the guys on that Texas Western tee were up there as well and they were on the tee. The tee in the V Kentucky. They were from New York. So Tommy had a tank, Floyd Lay was the coach. He was a famous guy from CCNY, I believe it was. He was a nice fellow. So I would drive

down on Saturday or Sunday, whatever the game was, drive down from Boston in the morning, to hang around, wake till the gate started, play the gate, get my car and drive back home. Your love of basketball was so strong. It was like that. Roughly, you know, I played so it was so great. It was all right. I think most of the guys from I can really

good shape. They weren't like I was somebody that played all the time and lifted weights and worked out. It was the peak of the condition about that time. 21 years old. I'm a rocker to roll man. You know, I just can you keep up with me? You know what I'm saying? Trying to set the pace. Those guys were used to that. Then tiny, tiny set, very

busy. Double day. Some guys down there, they'd never seen anybody like you. It said, you're away. Got any government there? You're like kicking there. I saw what would have been said. They'd never seen anybody like that before. You've just got me smiling from E.D. E. He with a stories day. Thanks so much for sharing them. You mentioned that Marie Stokes Memorial game in August of 1970.

Red Alback was asked to describe his thoughts on you at that time. And he said, and I quote, tremendous. Baby, am I looking forward to the season? And then he also mentioned your terrific performance in that game at the Catskills. You were named the MVP with 32 points, 22 rebounds and six blocks. You were also teammates with the number one overall pick Pete Maravitch. And you

were playing for the Red Albacks against a team called the Dolph Shazers. Lots of things to digest. But just to quickly give our list of some context, the game was filled with future Hall of Fame as like Willis Reed, Connie Hawkins, Dave Bing, Billy Cunningham, Wes Unseld, JoJo White and Walt Frazier. And I believe that Will Chamberlain was meant to be playing, but he arrived too

late after the game had finished. So all that said, how did it feel to perform so well against that incredible array of talent? As I said, I didn't know who any of those people were. I was in shape. He's got his older players in the summertime. They're not in shape. They're going up there to help with the kids and Maurice Stokes and the foundation. They're doing

it for a charitable staff for it. They're not doing it because they want to go up there and rock and roll. That's what I did. I went up to Broadway all over the place. It really wasn't fair and away. But again, I just just had a lot of fun doing it. Being able to play with Pete, being I became good friends and I was nice to

be on the team. I'm sitting fixed for him and I'm running the floor. He's kicking it ahead and up, thawing it up and ducking it and running around. We had a good time. I played the one game outside, was outdoors. It'd be good weather and the mix there. You did out. You go. This remarkable. I'd give anything to be able to see footage of some of

that game. This in terms of your NBA debut. It was in October of 1970 October the 13th to be precise. And it was the season opening game at Madison and the New York Nicks, who were the defending champions. They held on to win. 114 into 107. In that game, you're first with the Celtics. You had 16 points and 17 rebounds. Do you remember that first game

at New York? The only thing I remember is that I did start at center. I started to power forward. So I ended up covered. They did a busher as opposed to where we three. That week, one more game where I played. And then after that, they started to be at Saturday. I'd play Saturday. I said, make a rear. Boston prior to you joining the team almost

had like a center by committee for the season beforehand. I think there's two or three guys. Yeah. Hank Finkel was one of them. And then they rotated around until you were selected to primarily. I guess feel that role is center. I stayed on the team. Rich Johnson, and, um, Jeb Barnes, the original bad news for before Marvin. He was on the team. But then they treated

him. So basically, it was just Hank Finkel left from that particular rotating three dead at center that they had in between Russell's last season. In my first. You were named the car rookie the year in 1971. As I mentioned a bit earlier with the tribalizers, Jeff Patri. Have you had the opportunity in the decade since to talk with Jeff about that great honor that you both

shared? I would tell him I say, when the players vote, and I was a rookie of the year, I'll be back. Bob or so when the media got involved, they got you involved. I go, so that's the way it is. And how did he react to that? You just laughed. You knew what was going on, but Clorvo was an expansion team. But again, that first year,

you're rupiah the year you have in a good season. You're winning more than you're losing. And then you don't get to play in the old star game. I wanted to. Well, because they they made a rule that they wanted to include somebody from each of the expansion teams. So it had nothing to do with performance. It had to do with they wanted to have somebody represented

for most three teams. So then that takes spots away. You see what I'm saying? So it's like the first two years that I was with the team. We qualified. We had better records than the Eastern Conference than teams that went to the playoffs that we weren't allowed to play because they had as they were. We were the Atlantic division. So New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Buffalo, I

think was the only 16 teams of four divisions, 16 teams. Then the central division, there was Atlanta, Baltimore, and a couple other teams. Okay. But we had a better record than Atlanta and Baltimore, but they had to have two teams of that particular division. So we were the third place in Atlantic, but we had a better record than any other teams. Anybody else at the conference,

but we were allowed to go to the playoffs. To me, you take the true competition and the what you record that you should be able to go, which it is now. But back there, they were doing it because they were trying to build the lead, build attendance and build bands throughout the whole country as opposed to just that the Eastern part or the Western part. And

I'm sure that would have stuck in your car as well. Well, so now I'm looking at it. I'm thinking, many years ago, I didn't think about it back then, but later on, I'm going to the man piece made for playing junior year in college, then the tournament, my senior year in college. I had rookie year in the pros, that my second year in the pro, I

mean, had nothing to do with what I did or the record, J.V.L. It was because of these rules that were made up that really were fair to the players. That was three, four years that you get catalyzed because that's how you're making your name. You get to respect and you're going to play and you learn those things you're taking away from. But again, I wasn't in

Vietnam. True. As I said, it's all about that word perspective, I guess. At the 1973 All-Star game in Chicago, you were named the most valuable player. You had 15 points and 13 rebounds in 30 minutes of play. You defeated the West 104-84. Now, your coach Tom Hines and led the East Squad that day. And I read that your parents, Jack and Ruth, were at that game

in Chicago. So, how fondly do you look back on that time, winning the MVP and having your parents there in attendance? I tried to get it to WBZ and listen to Johnny Most, but the game be heading out in and out. So, they very rarely got a chance to see they play ever in college or in the pro, until they suddenly put some games on TV.

But pretty much my career was over by the time they started to put all the games on TV. So, it was nice, especially for my father, they were with the government, you know, staying out of the hotel and having dinner because, I don't know if she ever traveled. I was a Mississippi and our whole life, we did travel much. So, I think it was a big

thrill for her and it was a success. She was able to see me play. Now, if my research is accurate, I came across a stat somewhere that said that your father, Jack, was a member of Bellevue High's State Tournament team back in 1938. Is that correct? Probably, it was born in 20, so he would have been 17, 18 years old at that time. I mean, I

was senior. I didn't know that, what you tell me that they want to stay tournament, I didn't know that they did that. But it was about 65. He grew up pretty quick. And so, when he graduated, he was one of the bigger guys. But he wasn't too big to go into the service because he had enough to be in the army and fight in the World

War II. I read that he went from World War II veteran to a Baba. He did. He said he started cutting air into service for a couple of bucks here in the air just, you know, the other infantrymen. So, that's where he kind of got into the bug. He was also worked in a public finance company. And actually, the interesting thing is that after high school,

he didn't go to college. He got some job. But one of his jobs was as a professional dancer. So, he would do ballroom dancing in front of people teaching now, the steps like arts are very kind of the thing over a sense of adding. So, when he enlisted in the military, he was able to do a lot of things. And then, he was able to do

the army. They asked him what his background was. So, they made him a radio man because they saw that he was an entertainment. This is crazy to watch. But that's what he did in the service. He was a guy that they would put him up on double the deal. And he'd give him the quadrants until the ships out in the harbor were to put the balls.

And of course, the enemy was trying to take him out. So, he ended up almost getting killed. Got a profile. He had a malaria when he was over there. What did I ask for? And then he had better put it back on the front lines. Be two-year-campus trip. The incredible sacrifices that people have made for their country is remarkable. I'm glad to hear that he made

it back safe and sound. You made it better. The other words, those six kids won't be around. That's it. We wouldn't be talking today. That's for sure. This incredible information. And I really appreciate you sharing the details here. In terms of that, 9-73 season, you're selling the best season record ever to this date, 68 and 14. And you took the eventual NBA champions, the New York

Nicks, to a seventh and deciding game of their Eastern Conference Finals. You were named the NBA's most valuable player in 1973. Based on what I've read, is it fair to say that there's a big contrast between how you found out that you won the award versus the players of today? One of the pictures you sent me was being over in a basketball with tape on it,

sad MVP. And so before I got in, they came in and told me that I didn't want this MVP that was voted on by the players and coaches. You couldn't vote anybody on your own team. You couldn't vote for yourself. So everybody had to vote for other people. And so I ended up winning that vote over in Jabbar. It kind of doesn't make any sense, but

it happened because we had such a good record. That was the whole thing. Okay, what are we going to do? Well, we got a basketball. Let's put some tape that we taped back. It was with and put every key on that was a picture. That was the whole celebration till the next season. And then they had to trophy on the label. It's just so different. I

mean, everything's so high now. It's crazy. It is a bit of a tough. You mentioned Kareem out of Jabbar. In 1974, you won your first NBA title. The Celtics defeated the Buffalo Braves and the Nix on their way to the NBA finals where you met Kareem and his Milwaukee Bucks. It went to a seventh and deciding game that you won at Milwaukee. But one of those

defining moments of your career happened in game six, where at Boston, are you showing that tremendous hustle that we've been talking about? Where you did that sliding move across the famed Park a floor at Boston Garden chasing the ball for that loose ball. Do you mind indulging me just for a moment there to talk about that play your hustle and just playing against Kareem. Obviously, one

of the greatest players of all time, if not the best of all time. And winning that first championship dive. I didn't know that we're a really good game. That's six days. It was a double overtime game. Actually, I switched down. It was guarded Oscar Robertson in the car. And so I was guarded when I got to ball and I flipped it away from him. That it

was a good game. Where if I could have kept my feet and got that ball and died and laid it up, we probably win that ball game. That's how close it was at the time. I flipped a ball out and I went to go. But for some reason, whether it was fatigue or whatever it was, I couldn't really get my feet underneath me. So I see

this ball. There's going out there. I'm going, okay, here we go. Oh, we need this five or I'm trying to keep her from going out of bounds. Get the possession and go down and try to wear the ball. But we saw to get my foot. Feet because I could have been a real hero. How was it to play in front of the Boston fans? I know

that each team has their own fan base and they love playing in front of their home fans. But it just tend to be a whole different atmosphere at the Boston Garden. Did you sometimes get too over the top and hyped before games or did you have to try and level yourself out of it? What was that experience like and then just winning the title in general

in that nine and 74 season? Well, what I found is there's a professional. You play a lot of all game. Play over 100 a year if you're in the playoff. And so getting all hyped up and wasting a lot of energy before the game made no sense. All before Phil Jackson, all the sort of stuff. I used to meditate and really almost lay down in a

closet on a car. And it just relax in the dark before the game. I never went out and shot around and gave and stuff. And so just trying to relax. So that's what I was going to do. I knew I had a reservoir of energy at the end of the game because I'm playing in 40 better. It's a game. That's what I average for the most

part. Look for those first six years in the league. You play 100 games a year. You're not going to get hyped up for everything. You know of it. After time, you feel it got a crap that you're tired might be a little hungover. You know what I'm saying? It's like, let's just go out and do the job. Sorry to get a W. The role. I love

it. So the fans were good to answer your question. The fans were good. And I think from when I got there, their average attendance was about 7,000, even through all Russell's great years. Celtics went during the season. The only average about 7,000, 8,000 people a year. By my sixth year, we were up to about 13,000. So the crowd liked the way that we played and we

were pretty successful. And then when Larry Verne came to me, I was like, OK, we'll work from late 13,000 to 15,000, which is a maximum. This is an incredible time throughout the 70s and then into the 1980 season when bird joined about three weeks before the 1975 NBA season commenced. Your Celtics played the ABAs Denver Nuggets in one of those inter league games at Asheville and

North Carolina. What are your recollections of those NBA versus ABA games before the leagues ended up merging? The game you're talking about that we had at North Carolina, there was a referee at Earl Strong, he was an ABA guy, a lot of guys were ABA, they went to the NBA when they merged. So Earl was a guy. He had to laugh when he was, he was

a real character. You wanted it. If you were on the road, you want to Earl Strong to be one of the referees because he didn't care about the crowd. He just, he loved to stick it to the crowd. He's one of those kind of guy. Something happened. I was ticked off. And the ball was on the core. Right. I see Earl going over to pick the

ball though. And just before he picks it up, I kick it. And he would have been proud as a soccer guy. That ball went like this. Like this. Just one winding up and the stand. Tech beat through me. And so what is the next mission? We was like the best kick I ever did for a basketball. Oh my goodness. That didn't oh, react. Was he quite

taking it back? He just being out of here. So I went. Got me a beer, a hot dog. And set up with the double the stands and once the ball. That's fantastic. So moving on to to 1976. Another terrific season in Celtics history. You went 54 and 28 and you ultimately met the Phoenix Suns in the NBA Finals. You won in six games and it was

your second NBA title along the way that you took part in that iconic game five at Boston Garden. I recently had a mate of mine, Adam, another Adam on the show and also Bob Bryan, a good friend who came on to talk about that game five in Boston. How would you describe that series against the Suns, but particularly that incredible three overtime classic versus Phoenix? Well,

Phoenix upset gold state with Rick Barrier and Glefford and all the good from guys that were on that team. I was happy because we did not do very well against golf spent that year. Really Phoenix into finals as opposed to gold state was. Benefit for us. I think on our team that helped us be able to get another championship. Pretty much our teams were kind of

the same size wise and depth wise. I think we were a better team. We were a little more experienced because we had to have a check and Don Nelson and Silo said those guys were a seizure of most of the players that were on feeding. Steve. We now with Adam was a rookie. He was a rookie of the year. We were a rookie. Westfall was, he

come out and said big too, I think. He was only four years in the league. He had played with us. What we beat Milwaukee team. So that's all we got to always count because of that tree. It was a good pretty evenly matched. We beat him pretty handily in Boston. And then the whole media got into all Boston's beer. We had really aggressive. They beat their

partners. Phoenix solid. The blah blah blah. But we go out to the Phoenix and play a game called fouls all over the damn place. There's a foul shot at the fouls. We ended up losing a close game. I think if they would have just wrapped it the way they had been, we probably beat them. All this stuff wouldn't have. But it would have been. And they

went to gauge out there. So we go back to Boston for that one. And then you got the triple overtime deal out. That was the only game they were played at. It started one day and added to the net. It was a league game. It was a bigger story about the eight o'clock on the Friday night. And I think we were still playing fair squid though.

I think it ended at about 10 past 12 or something like in the morning. Yeah, you're right. The only game I were worried went into two different days. Just before have the check hit that fantastic running bank shot. You'd fouled out. So what was it like from your vantage point to be sitting on the bench, not being able to be in the game as much as

you obviously would have loved to have been on the floor for those multiple overtime. It's frustrating because you're you're in the mix of it all the time. And then I was certainly not. And there's nothing you can do about it. You don't want to get mad that that thought it was not a very good call. They call the charge. I mean, I thought to go down

south for a cable went under real little bit. But, um, that what it is, the roughery called a charge and I went out. And so you sit there, he just hope for the best because there's nothing else you can do. You don't coach. Rau Rau, did it get all excited about it. These kind of just there. I watch it like a fan would go in McDonald

came to force. He really played a big difference in a game. It's like about to have seen the guy that played a few minutes in the first quarter. He sits out all the second quarter. He's a tough tie, all the third quarter, all the fourth quarter. The first overtime, the second overtime. And he puts him in the third overtime. And he makes three baskets and helps

us win the ball. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Very cool. We need to be ready and to be able to produce that kind of a pressure back situation. Right. See ball the time. I go, you're my hero. But I got a ring cause of you. That's fantastic to come through in the third overtime of an NBA fondles game. Which you went up three games to two with

the victory. So then we wrap it up at Phoenix for game six. Yeah, tremendous stuff. So yeah, glimmered on all very important figure in that game. Very, very important. And usually in the playoffs, what happens is your batch plays a huge role most of the time. Because guys get hurt. They follow out. Yeah, everybody knows what everybody's doing. It's so really your batch guys make a

big big difference in the playoffs. You mentioned John. I'm going to go and start it all in terms of his running bank shot. How important to the Celtics law was. Have a check. He passed away not too long ago. His impact on the NBA. But also just the Boston Celtics in general. Can you put it into words? The impact that he had on the franchise and

on yourself? Well, I mean, he was just a great athlete and a very young self. He's player. Even though it is the old time leading score for the Celtics. So it's 16 seasons. You play down the first few as a substitute coming off the bench. That that six van roll like Frank Ramsey did. But when he was with us, he was our captain. He was our

guy. So he was our go to guy. When like, like, Bird was or like, over on his or like, the way he'd and somebody like this, all these guys, you get to go to guy at the end of the game. What do you need to double it? And you need good execution. John was going to get the ball because we know he was going to make

a good decision. He was a clutch player. Then he was our leader. Like today guy said, well, I'm a leader. And I got to be a leader and a lot of leader. He goes, I'm good. I never heard he'd ever say he was a leader. Only there was a lead. He didn't write about it or say what he was going to do or how he's going

to be a leader. He just he just was that guy. He get it way play and way thought the way carried himself. He had been instrumental in a lot of the championships with the Celtics prior. But we've been getting there. This got to do the new group of the seventies. So he was our guy. And then the great guy really agree. Human being good. Man all

the way around. Place to hear that. I did read my research for our chat today that you went to Japan in 1977 for some sort of promotional tour for a target shoes. Does that ring a bell? I work with Tiger for a while. It was interesting. I went over there three years in a row to do clinics and look at factories and talk to people on

the. It was a pretty good deal. I was able to get a lot of shoes for kids to wear. That my basketball camp and Massachusetts. The coaches used to buy shoes for their teams. I sold them to the shoes for a dollar a piece. So they could go back and put shoes on all of their players on their teams. Oh, that's pretty cool. Yeah, it was

good. Yeah, way to get that. In 1978, your Celtics missed the postseason for the first time since your rookie season. Tom Satch Sanders took over as coach from Tommy Honson during the season. And then after a two and 12 start to the 1979 campaign. Sanders was replaced by a guy named Dave Cowan's who went 27 and 41 to close that season. What was it like to

have the opportunity presented to you to take over as coach, but still being a player at that time. I mean, that non in 79 says in which was quite unique. It makes no sense to do both jobs and nobody started since I don't play. Why would you have somebody to both job? They'd to bus you dead it earlier than I did. There were a few guys

who did it. Obviously Bill Russell did it. It just doesn't make any sense. Casey Jones above a dinner or my sister coaches into town. John Whitebrow was the color of the day that I had just read a go share the contrary. So in his vine, he wanted me. He wanted to really get his money for so he had me a player named Colts. I was coached.

I didn't get any more buddy. I just was getting the same money as I got as a player, but have it all these day. But they had a decent organizing and dealing with different guy. We had so many. I think we had 20 guys on the roster that particular year. We had one guy Don Smith, we played in the Iowa. He changed his name to Abdul.

He was his. I saw it one time ago. You are big time Abdul because they have a ship named after you over and Saudi Arabia. But anyway, we acquired Don Smith of Abdul as his on the road. That we cut him while we were on the road. So he's the only guy to know the only war. Great uniform. He never got to wear a whole uniform

for the Boston. That's how the terms follow. People are just coming in. They're just saying, actually, we won our first six games. We were losing and we ended up winning six games at them. Bill of Stewart, she was a Miss America. It was married to John Lloyd Brown. She was allowed with Bob McAddo. So John, well, I made a deal with the York to break back

and do the boss. And Red didn't want to do it. McAddo didn't want to beat him because he and I were our tribal. We were playing against each other. We were in some Buffalo for many years at the White House. And he was one of the best players I ever played. But it just fit with being the coach and the player and the team. We're playing

the same position. So when we got near, I'd benched myself to play, you know, the start ball back into our team. Well, how's it been? I had a gig. I didn't have to care existing with him giving your history. It's just part of the law. Before the non-in-IT season, Bill featured. Bill featured, was then named coach of the Celtics. And then obviously a rookie Larry Bird

comes onto the scene. Now the team had one of the biggest single seasons turn around in NBA history, 61 and 21. Do you ever think about the what ifs if you had a continued on as the head coach and played again? Or were you happy to see Bill featured takeover? And then you just become a player again? I had never thought about Colchid. So I did

it basically for the team. I cooked one for the team. I had never thought about Colchid. So I did it basically for the team. I cooked one for the team. The year before. But about a bit smart. I'd already told you I was in color. There wasn't the greatest student, but I was by myself. But about a bit smart. I could have been the coach of

the year. I had to do a stay coach. Bird comes on. We're going to win a lot of game. I'll coach you the year. So what was it like to see a young Larry Bird emerge under the national scene? Have such an immediate impact in Boston and being teammates with you. And then you got to see him as you are getting towards the closing season or

two of your career dive. You could tell right away. I mean, this guy. He loved basketball. He worked out. He just said a nag. He was just into it all the time. When I made he wasn't a and every downed again kind of guy, every minute he played. He was got into a competing. And I loved that about it. He was even more into it than

I was actually. That he had these great bands. Just your building. He had to catch it. Pass like instantly. He had a great vision. Better vision than I at all. Facilably. Defasible. I was a little bit better than there. Rebounding. Staying in front of people and all that stuff. And I'll play in the center position. He was playing. Kind of with three in the four position.

But all facilably. This guy has a remarkable skills. An instinct. So smart. Biggie. Just seeing things going all. And he just applied himself. I got better and better and better. You've been very generous with your time. I won't hold you for too much longer. But thank you so much for chatting with me today. Your close friends. As we mentioned with the legendary sports rider Bob Ryan

and your relationship goes back many decades in his excellent book. Scribe, which I've got right here in front of me at the moment. It's a good book. It is a great book. He opens the book with a story about you visiting his hotel room in early October of 1980. And the fallout that that would have in terms of affecting the Boston South experienced eyes given that

you were looking to possibly retire. Do you mind just relaying that story about what happened with those? I think he described it as a chief of papers. And you knocking out his door on the hotel room. He's obviously a really good rider. And I had written my own basketball, bitch, you were in a way. You know, it's going away from the game where we die. But

I'll instead of somebody else riding it up. Give my own two cents for it. So I drove was finished. Riding it on the yellow line paper. I went over and I'll go Bob's so they can you look at this and we could sell somewhat professionally. Written that's of act. You know, he said fine. He should read. He goes. What he says here. He was actually done

in a Paul Silas on the following. I got into the room. Let's talk to Paul a little bit. He was out in. No, if he was in Denver, maybe see I'll go to time. Yeah. Then I called. I read our back and told it was going on. And I was there. Then he took the story and I was similarly to the gate. I think he made

a few edits. He changed his. But he said not much. He didn't do much to. Incredible story. And he opens the book with that. He was quite stunned. I guess as he was reading initially to then realize I had this is actually a retirement statement of sorts. So um, he was fine. I like a pro. It did. It's on September the 9th of 1982. Boston did

a deal with Milwaukee. You'd play your final NBA season with the Bucks and Quinn Buckner became a member of the Celtics. I recently learned to us doing a bit of research with a chat today that you are very close to becoming a Phoenix Suns player before the deal fell through. How did that move to Wisconsin come to be? Well, I basically heard about it. I was

ready to go to Phoenix. I think they had a deal for a draft pick that Rick had gone onto my rights, even though I had retired a couple of years prior. But again, one of those red our backs. Shrewd Boog and he all out to right at the end. I guess Don Nelson and them tall. They decided that they would offer a quit Bucks. They're so

red. Colbert. We said, you're not going to Phoenix. You're going to Milwaukee. So that's kind of what happened. I've been changed the plate. I was in a reservation. I'm going to Milwaukee. That's all I got out there with no. Queen was happy. They got to play with Bernie. You know, I was a good thing. But that particular season, that postseason, you know, I was at Milwaukee.

The Bucks played the Celtics. That the cock was on sweat the Celtics for the zip. They hit the K all they hit bird. They had trashed. They did Maxwell. They hit they down the who they had at the back core. But they had their big deal. But you never hear the Celtics talk about that particular playoff series. You never hear talk about that. You know, Milwaukee.

We had a good team. I'm Maria Bob one here in Aubrey, two to block you are free making a good spirit for the Saints. That was a kind of. I'muep GB. I got him like a short horse. myself, player resolver miles, care of Ott tired three and tag. I let em are 50 at the Barrett. I had to grow earlier in the season and go worse

and worse. I tried to play and that way said no, you just can't rely on you. You'll be able to do everything you got to do out there. So I didn't get to play the play. I said that's why they brought me in there to give them another body and experience player in the player. How did it feel just to be watching from the bench, knowing

this is the team that you won two titles with and had such a celebrated career with? I made me the only guy that come back and play for another tee under their number of being retired. So when I came back and played from a walkie by no, we're starting to get up in the rack is up. Maybe the other guy never do that. That's a good

point. Yeah, true. On May the 13th of not in 91 you were inducted at the basketball Hall of Fame and a fellow Hall of Fame out the great ball. Petit presented you ahead of your acceptance speech. He talked briefly about how he admired your intensity and desire. During your speech, you mentioned how you were known as the guy who's often falling down. Do you remember what

happened just a few seconds after you talked about that? Yeah, the Hall of Fame and emblem fell off at the front of the podium. I was standing in that. I mean, how does that happen? That just doesn't make any sense. Actually, it's about the number of times you're watching. Afterward said, did you have a little butt that you pushed and make that thing fall off? And

I said, no, it's just, it's just. I've already watched the acceptance speech a few weeks ago. How did it feel like to be up on that stage talking about your injury into the Hall of Fame, looking back on all that you achieved as a player? You tried to sum it up and got to get people of feel for what you went through. And I mean, now

you hear these speeches and they just thank everybody in the world. It was a lady named White. I want to say Nora White, a really great country basketball player. And she got inducted into the Hall of Fame, the year afterwards. All right. Bob, a near was up there. And he talked. Did you suppose that I'd like five minutes to give me a thing? If you're a

coach, they'd never have to hear the five minutes because they wanted to hold it up. So Bob, a near was up there. He was talking about this at the other and get all misdi in talking about how many people are so good. Which she got it up to the podium. She said, I want to dedicate this award to my mother and father. Thank you. And walked

off the stage. She got a standing ovation. That's certainly, I think it was great. That's all she said. That was her old speech. Didn't have to play in that one too much. I know. Oh, man. That's fantastic. Basketball digest had a regular feature, which was called the game. I'll never forget. Now you played in some incredible games over the course of your career, both in college

events and exhibition ones and obviously in the NBA. Is there one game from your career that stands out more than any other? No, really. Probably the fact that I get a good game against Karee. In 74 on the road to close it out with a championship. And that was the first time I could go like this, put my figure up and say, number one, you know,

am I all career high school, grade school college or whatever to do it against that guy on the road in a seven. That's probably the most memorable. School and at Florida state, but then changed to number 18 with the Celtics and then number 36 in Milwaukee. The 18 K, when I went to Boston, I wanted to wear number 13. In red said, you can't have number

13 because we'll share going where's number 13 and he was the arch rival of Bill Russell. So he said, nobody's going to number 13 on the Celt. So I said, we'll just close a bit. There might get an A closing the three. He said, but get it A and that's what I'm sorry. Got the Bob Briano and Jim Luskittoff and Bailey how all war number 18

prior to me training there. That's a great story. And number 36 in Milwaukee, I just double 18. That's all. Stay with the group. They just to let you know about there's 18 leaders in my day. There's 18 letters at both of my daughters name. My both daughters were born on the 18th of their month July. So how good is that? I love that. He seems to

be a lover for us. What point did you just have to realize that the daughter's names were itane and you are I didn't. I don't know what it is. So to look in that was when it's just on the app. No, we didn't do it on purpose. I like to examine the numbers sometimes. And to say if there's any sort of link source significance, it's all

about the numbers. Yeah, it is. Real thrilled. Having on the show today, Dave, and I want to thank again, your good friend Bob Ryan for helping us connect. There's nice adopt to you. You the only guy know that you got two first needs and two last. I should have got two middle names James and Vincent. So I've actually got four first names. Adam James Vincent Ryan.

So there you go. There you do have that class of week for less names to hold on Vincent. I don't know maybe Sam Vincent, but I know there's judges and the other then yeah, but I'm I'm it could be anywhere. I've got them all. I'd love to have a future date. Invite you back and talk about your post playing career. There's so much to talk about

even just in terms of your coaching align. So if you're up for that at some stage in the future, I'd love to welcome you back. But thanks again for talking with me today. It's really appreciated. All right. We're the talk. And you did a great job. Oh, much appreciated. Thank you and have a great night. What's left of it? We have a good. What do you

say? Good. Yeah, good. Hey, good. Hey mate. I'm gonna say it's a bit stereotypical, but I say mate every second word over here in Australia. It's good. I mate. Thanks for listening. I welcome your interaction with the show. Tap the microphone icon on my website to send me a voicemail. You can suggest discussion topics or guests. You'd like to hear our conversation with time now to

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