Bill Willoughby: High school phenom to the 1975 NB

Every time I see a bachelor won't go up and shoot it. It looked like a popcorn machine or something to me. I feel like I want to go grab. Oh, God. If I wasn't scared the way I would land, I would block 9 and 10 shots at the game. Because I actually block Korean shot. I blocked the twice in that game. They called it golden. And

I remember my cousin telling me, yeah, because you let it out of his hand. The first one I blocked him see his in his hand. It's like I blocked his buck with the one that I blocked. I blocked it almost a half court. Oh, you spoke to just finger tip that you can't block me shot like that. But I paved it perfectly. Incredible hops for sure.

Son of a father. Mike's perfect sense when I think about it. Then you are in our studio right now. You're talking in the basketball. You're talking great teams. You're talking great individual players takes it off. And there's number 20's. We're in the first Johnny goes nuts. I just tried to go up there with my game. I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't like

anybody. I'm not a decent person. Strands, you make the pass. Yes. You catch the ball. Yes. All the stars are aligned and all the muscles fall at the right time. And I was out of the ground and throw one down. I was saving that as a surprise for you. And now introducing your host for in all airness and a Ryan. Welcome to episode 132. Thanks for

joining me. I'm excited to welcome Bill Willoughby to the show. One of the first players to jump straight from high school to the NBA. There are many more strings to his bow as you'll soon hear in my introduction. However, Bill rose to national awareness during the 1981 NBA playoffs by virtue of his excellent defense against the legendary Korean Abdul Jabbar. Willoughby is one of only a

few to ever reject the captain's iconic sky hook. A topic we certainly cover in this episode. I'll share another great podcast review. If you can spare a moment, please add your review via Apple podcasts, see the reviews link on my website or your listening app of choice. If it allows, it will be most appreciated. Show nice for this episode and access to a huge archive of

past episodes are available at in all anus.com. Now under the show. My guest today was named all American at Englewood High and ladies team to a New Jersey Championship. In 1975, he became the third player ever, drafted from high school to professional basketball. Moses Malone went to the ABA in 1974. This gentleman was selected in the same NBA draft as Darryl Dawkins. He had an eight

year NBA career. Bill Willoughby, thanks for joining me. Oh, my boy. Pleasure. Before we actually chat about basketball, what sports or hobbies were you interested in when you were a child? Basically, baseball, collective baseball, card, football, cards, things like that. You should go to amusement parks. Who are some of your favorite baseball players back in the day? Oh, hanggaring. Will he made Mickey Manel? Well, some

of the old time crates. In terms of your height, your six foot eight, at what stage did you start to really grow and be taller than most of your peers? Oh, then a group, probably from Evegreet to Nate Greed. I was 10 and Evegreet, but then the name Greed moved up to high school and I played in six, five, I think. So over there, I saw

So I was in first grade. So when I actually go down my grandfather's house, we lived, I used to read a scrapbook all the time and just ask him how many points he scored. Did he remember who won the game? Well, I used to stay around in the weekends or cousins used to come and stay at the house. And I did the way I wanted to

do this one day. Well, the young kid coming up behind me can read my scrapbook to hopefully get into basketball. That's fantastic. I love to hear that. So what I've read, you averaged an amazing 32 points and 17 rebounds per game. As a high school senior at Dwight Morrow, some newspapers actually printed that your average was upwards of 35 points per game. You had NBA and

ABA scouts attending your home games, including one of the all-time great players, Oscar Robertson, who was apparently scouting with him a walkie-bucks at the time. Just for some context for our listener here, one article listed your season high scoring games, including 45, 46, 51 and even a 54 points. So clearly you're an outstanding talent. How aware were you of the growing number of scouts that were

watching you from the stands as a high school senior? I was just as a guard, which I really was. I was a guard. And I've played everything. I was right up there in the first team of the American preseason coming out and basically could do everything. That's the ball, bringing up, going to play something for the small fold. I could play every position. So I think

they had me down as he, he for everything. I wasn't a guard for it or a center. I could speak. And he from that. The senior Smith had me there. But the level one player, he had a lot of different sporting news and different book group. Create magazine who had the number one player. And I think I was the number one and most of them. I

love how you're referred to as a for everything. That's fantastic. What size was the gymnasium that you played him when you were in high school and how big with the coach? And I was really proud that we're also growing to what you play throughout that senior season. We've had about 2200 people. That's what it was. And I played my senior year. It was kind of crazy

because we were scored like a hundred points of game with no three points. Docs, no dunking. And I was basically my forte. I love to do that when I played in New York City, which I played over there a lot. So they basically hurt for me to play in the thumb up to play with New York players again. I guess those he players and back and

forth, those he players against New York players. So it wasn't no bigger. Reenas that are playing in that in high school. The basket come from the ceiling and there's no crowd at the end of the basket. So I playing college arena in New York. The first time I got to play with seeing fans like at the end of the basket because the basket is pushed in.

Look like it's low. She got a just a lot. A lot of things. And I thought they got to go to the pro's early and play against a lot of old. The people when I was young and I was 12. I used to play with 17 year olds. And then at the 17. I used to play in New York against 18 19 20 year old. So

I just get exposure early. I pursued anytime. I wasn't playing in Jersey. I was playing in New York. I was able to play because I'm actually a guard when I was 510. So when I grew that thick edges, I still was a guard in my mind. But they used to put me underneath the basket. And I didn't have really no mood. Like to jump over people

and shoot. Well, I learned I kept my skill. Because I can dribble a lot. Jim will be good with the coach told me to do this to try to win ball game. Now in terms of the players in New York, who were a few of the names that you were going up against as a teenager before we even get to chat about your incredible leap to

the NBA? So Vinnie Johnson, some guys made pro Tony Price. He went to a pen paper. And guys like Arnold Dugger. They played over T Alexander L.J. for a nod to play with Marquette. He plays with up to 76. I agree. All these guys played Division one LSU or Kalimax. And in Jersey guys like Wilbur Ross. But the University of New York. That was a great

treat. But John Long Terry Tyler. Terry Dura. I know those guys. Yeah, I played all of the five brothers in New York. And Manhattan, Queen's Bronx Bookman, Long Island. But also our teams. Let's travel with them. To Philadelphia Buffalo. Play all over Harlem and Manhattan. The playground and schools. And then we played like a city of Y city cars in New York for them. So I

had scouts kind of know what I could do. Because I was like, I'm going to have to do it. Because the rule was in 1972. That's the first time they let players play Rodley ball. So everything was open for college coaches. To come and watch you play all year round. That's something under the regular theater. I remember the first team while America. These guys. I didn't

play against what I heard from them all over the country. This is Dow Dawkins from Florida. Your cart right. It was from California. And then you had Larry. Gibson. Who was from Washington DC. I played against him. The summer camp. They were all the government with us. And Mato and guy named Kyle Macy. They played with Kentucky. He made the lead. The Phoenix. There was three

centers and two guys. First thing while working 1974. Just some great background there. Thank you for sharing it with us. I'm sure you must have given all the different boroughs you played in across New York. Were you a part of the rocker Park, Sainter, any stage? No question about it from 6th grade. Watching P.E. Kergman Joe Hammond and those guys. And Aggram on top 50. Rucker.

Didn't actually know that. There you are. Yes. The 50th anniversary was 2015. And the first time a guy went for high school to propose. 1975. So we had the anniversary of 50 years for them. 40 for me. So. I went over there. Met P.E. and fly. We and all those guys on my idol. Charlie Scott. Those guys who were serving. They all played over there. And

I actually went pro. I wasn't able to play in the lead games. What Rucker? Like all those guys that I missed and did. But. I played in the high school league. And then we came back and played all star games against different city. Like for the Delta. You know the Jersey Connecticut. And then I went. And then I went to the pro. So a lot of

times in the summer we were playing the. Tony California league. Indoor. And the street ball players against the pros. Was back at Rucker. Everything. Tains then because. The basically told us don't play too much on. The. My stuff. So yeah, I made Rucker. And a lot of my great idols were throwing in. I actually met probably everyone on there from Korea. I'm trying to get with

him now to put out this feature. I mean, blocking the sky hook. But I did later on in my career. But I know him when he was 18 from County. Hawking. All those guys. Probably a lot of it. To the globe. Tarras. I went over there every weekend. And played in Rucker. People all over the world should know that because I'm proud of being the top

50 Rucker. These guys were great. And just wasn't enough spots in the NBA. Presumably the NBA folded. If you look at it back in the day. My. Those players the. ABA. Julia Thorough and George Govins. Daniel. To. Charlie Scott. David Thompson. I even got dressed about it. Them with nuggets. My dream was to NBA. And actually it folded. The next year after I got into the

NBA. So. A lot of players went over these. They played the. NBA just won another spot. I've just got a big smile on my face here as you've read off so many of those great names to be involved with Rucker Park. It's just wonderful to hear your recollections. So would you have associated with Peter Vessi, the legendary journalist at the time with Rucker Park. Oh, yeah.

No. I'm real good. I think it was Dr. Jerry's coach out there. I played some all-star game. And I was in the pro. And I'm recording the diversity with. And I can't green a lot of street ball. Players and pros play. So yeah, he actually knew. My management that I have all pro rep for Louis the fell. And Jerry Davis. These guys actually. Old to Miami

Heat. For the coach to Pat Riley. Okay. Yeah, that's another story that I'm trying to put in the document in the book. Because. I was on the way that I left the NBA. It wasn't good. It was billionaires. And a lot of players. I made it money. Lost it. In ways that it's in the bin. Done. So. That's what Peter Vessi knows that. But. No way

once again, the NBA a black eye anything. Whether. Some day. Some. Some. Some to go out about that. That is very interesting. Here. I did read a few articles about some issues that involved agents that you're dealt with throughout your career. And maybe. Towards the end of the conversation when we talk about the latter part of the 1980s. And. You're looking to get back into the

NBA. Might bring up the new Miami franchise. At that stage. Perhaps. I mentioned Peter Vessi because he's a previous guest of the show. And a great conversation. I list. And I had a chance to meet with him in New York. Three or four years ago now. And it was great to be able to catch up with him. I mentioned before we were chatting today. That I'd

be speaking to you. And he said to mention, of course, the famous block you had against Kareem Abdul-Jubar. He talked about already in game one of the 1981 playoff series. He believes you might have a framed photo of that moment in your house. Is that correct? Actually, no. I've never got it like that. I'm trying to get the picture right now to put it on T-shirts.

So I'm in the process of doing that. So I have to get. So I was frustrated. Approval NBA also Kareem. So right when you call. I was in the process of trying to get back from. I think I can. I'm on. Everything that's going on. If you look at it, I want to ask you the pros 20 years, nobody did it for 20 years. So I

think they held me back on purpose. Because they want to go to college. And everybody getting paid in college now, they never did that. So they said, if I came out and been a star like Magic Dolls, I know Kobe Bryant, some of the. I think everybody starts jumping. I'm just. I was right when they let freshman playboy. So I think I took the hit on

my career. For other people, because you look at David Stern. He said that I he didn't want no pros, cows in high school jumps. And I had a NBA NBA teams in that. So I would like it to the NBA. I'm not being able to play my game. Because you know why the owner and the GM in the coach. Okay. The owner gives the GM the

job to choose the coach. The coach don't play the guy that he drives. Did I make. The owner say the GM don't know what he's doing. And a lot of people don't know that. And then they drive out of the ACC pack 10. If you get a. The label has not a defensive player. And the team has enough scores. You can leave the base and scores

that get cut in the NBA. Now I can give you names Tony Murphy. People like that. I'll score Andrew Tony. He never made the lead. Because it was that Tony was dumb. Something like that. I could write books and stories. Everything that I know about the NBA. They thought because I didn't go to college. I was dumb and stupid. And I got a college degree. And

I go get a master in the doctor's degree. But still you go to college. You go somewhere try to get a job. They write you still any one of us. One of our boys or something. You don't come from. You stay away or no or no today or Texas. You come out of high school. So I'll be trying to get all the high school players together.

They were low gold. I'm chasing gravy. Tom. Here. The Lake Kobe Bryant people. The Bronx. Yeah. I've seen that to you guys when they were 17 18. So nobody knows that. Nobody's found it. Because you got billionaires. And tell people don't go back to the K from so. I met a lot of jazz when he was 17. I haven't talked to him since. So I'm trying

to get the green block. Go to his game. When he breaks the reeds record. I hope they put this on the TV. I'll hope that comes to fruition. Yeah. I was. I was. I think that you would be looking to put a book out at some stage to talk about all these topics and some of the back office politics that go on behind the scenes. Yeah.

I'm trying to do a book in the movie right now. You mentioned the documentary there. So you're also looking at doing a book to go with that. Yes. Yes. Because the document is halfway done. What I did I can be walked to Rucker. If in the document, you can look it up. It's a checkpoint production. It's got a David tech did half of it. He's a

child of Jersey. I told him the story. I made a gift book a world record. Some pre-court decision from high school to the pro. He's understood. I do it. I told him I used to walk the Rucker and they felt it. And I sat in the park with the people one record. Balmucalla. The thought on film. But the halfway done. I didn't have the money to

finish it and they couldn't finish it. So I'm hoping to get the community block. Take it to Willa. Bond James breaks his record. I can have my Jersey with Korean block. I know he don't want a teeth. They will him get shot by. Somebody breaking his record. But there's two people. Takes one to break a record. One to make it records are made to be broken.

So I know both of these guys. Maybe LeBron. No, remember me because it was like when he was 17. Well, no Korean knows me. So I'm trying to do this for. They were going on a different swing championship. I played defense. I played offense and defense every minute. I'm out there. I'm never fooled. And I was six feet eight. And I was the last nine of

defense or every team I played for. I should tell the players like Moses and guys were played with. And you ain't got a foul of guys. Cause if you get up over you, I'm going to block it. Some of the highlights that I've seen of your game on YouTube. That's definitely the case. And of course, the classic block on Korean. And in the following game as

well, there was a fantastic block of another one of his shots where you also sent that one back and ended up with a fast break dunk for Moses. So some great highlights there that definitely back that up. Yeah. And I want to teach defense. That's what I want to get back to what I did 20 years ago. When I graduated at the I spoke at the

rookie program. Well, guys like Jason kid and getting Robinson to the Francis. And I spoke with all these guys before they got an NBA and the rookie program. And I haven't done nothing 20 years. And I want to get back to and speak to them. I think I can offer that. Yeah, I reckon you can too for sure. You were just 18 years and 156 days

old, according to basketball reference. When you made your NBA debut. Just before we get to that moment and talk about that, the 1975 NBA draft was held in late May. And the number one pick was David Thompson, who was originally drafted by Atlanta. You were selected 19th pick overall. You were the first pick in the second round. Where were you on draft day and how did

you learn that you were picked by the Atlanta Hawks? I was actually home. They didn't have it like they did the last few years. Actually, it was called hardship draft. My mother and father couldn't make enough money for us to go into the draft. So that was called hard to now score early entry. So basically with home was that we all know TV. The way he

walked in the state is just called me. And I said, this is the soon picture, you know, agent that I had. That's what he said. And it was crazy because I got drafted by the NBA author for them. And I just come to go to North Carolina. That's the relationship with Dean Smith very brown to coach each from New York. If I wasn't going to go

to Atlanta, I could go to Denver. And it would look like me, David Thompson, the model. Well, it was like all going to go to the same team. But they had a B. A. ties. And I'm going to go to the North Carolina. I'm going to go to the North Carolina. I'm going to go to Denver. And it would look like me, David Thompson, the model.

Well, it was like all going to go to the same team. But they had a B. A. ties. I think you know, Larry Brown with North Carolina, North Carolina State in Marvel, Western. So I wasn't really in on that. So I always went to go to the NBA. So I went to the NBA. If you look at it, I could have played on the best teams

that ever played at the age that I was the one for coaching. And I can tell you the pack 10 ACC. People drive from there. They're going to get a chance to show what they can do. And this is my story also. When I went to. And so I think always it's minutes played and playing defense and playing the win the game. Now I'm, of course,

you get. That's why I try to teach them kids. If you look at the next year, the NBA folder, they started with 10 teams and then five. So St. Louis went into perpetuity. They paid them like $800 billion something. Let them in. But if you look at that drive, when I went to Atlanta, I was a guard. So I could have played two guard. We already

had John Drew. So they cried kind of for the sentence of Johnson. So he'd be Brown came in and basically told me, well, I'm going to pay my dues. He called us losers and everything. So look what he did. We had the first pick in the NBA drive. Okay. And we had the first pick in the dispersal job for the ABA. We had the worst reckoning

relief. And what he did was he didn't take Marie's Lucas because he hated Marie's Lucas. This guy, she'll be Brown and Kentucky. Okay. So he takes Jeff Peatry, who would hurt never played a game again. He was hurt from Princeton and they then Steve Hart. That's who took us that are taking. We lose Lucas is the best power for it in the game. At that time.

Because he wanted to take the championship with Portland. We'll do what? Then instead of taking Robert Paris, we needed a dinner. But he wasn't the number one pick. They traded the pick for Josie Maryweather and Arm on Hill. To Houston. In Houston didn't even take Robert Patrick to John Lucas. Which called me Brian and all these chasing the green and all these guys. I played just

like them back in the day. The Tom Henderson. Who were playing in the Olympics and everything. He was one of the best point guys in the league. That's what have been up done. We always like under 22. We got it. Bain is the right. Yeah. Would have been an absolute frightening lineup with that array of talent. You mentioned here, be Brown there. He replaced cotton fits

Simmons as coach in your second season with the Hawks. And I'd read in New Paper Articles that your relationship with Huber was obviously quite rocky. There was a 1980 article. This is from you quote. My career stopped when Huber Brown got there. End quote. So how demanding was that second year with the Hawks and your relationship. Or maybe luck there of with Huber throughout that season

bill. Oh, it's not even we were talking about because you can't get you can't even get me one person that they're making about this guy. Okay. That one person. And I really don't wish my time with him because what he does is he came in calls on losers. And he came from the AB at AB folder. Nobody could send them good about it. Rip the cano.

Right. Ca up. All these guys from New Jersey. They can't play basketball. So this is we're going to coach and treat you like a slave. Okay. Call you losers because. When new coach comment. He just cleans everything out. He's like, oh, no. Just think in here. I'm coming in here. And it and. And. All he is demanding coach. If you look at it, he cuts just

your point production and minutes. And you look at my can give several examples of this. And what he ain't even worth talking about. But I'm just want to want you to say this and hit it over. Okay. He had bill caught right there. First of all, he tried to make Patrick you in the power forward. Because they actually bill caught right. Patrick got him fired. Okay.

They fired Dave to push it before they fired him. He's a one one man player. If you look at it truck Robinson was on the tee. These were the best power forward. But now I can't. Okay. He had Ray Williams and his microwave rich and all these guys. If you look at it, uh, bro, I can't took like 70% of the shots. Okay. And then when

you lost, he blamed the players. Okay. We need an ABA. He said, flake and foul. Dr. J. Because Dr. J they used to come in and watch him. So the visiting team with Dr. David and the team. They'd be like clapping for him to dunk on all this guilt. We'll make his team look bad. I can go on and on with this guy. Because it's not

just him. It's Mike Vitello. Who's coach in the NBA 10 to 20 years and he's at NBA TV. He ain't but five feet one. Can't even touch the net. Okay. But he's going to tell you about basketball. All these guys are some new terms. They said I can't make the NBA but I'm a coach and then they they commentate and then we're doing that none of

them know nothing about basketball. Okay. So he said two players. As dial walker has anybody who played with him. You know, I have one person. Maybe but now I can't. He told him you ain't going to holler make me look like a little kid because he gave him a ball all the time. So you guys are from Jersey. That's why I know about him. Mike Vitello.

Chuck Daley. Brendan stir all these guys cannot play basketball at all. But they're going to be on television telling people what they're already looking at and see and get paid me the dollars for it. This is ridiculous. He's not even a good coach or nothing. I'm just man. If I had him when I was 18, 19 years old, but I think they made it. They made

people cry. They need to beg them to stop abusing them. I could do a movie and make this guy look like the worst clown man. You let him in the NBA. Articles way back. I said, turn it actually hired him twice. So I know he don't know nothing about basketball because he's a coach. He is an answer. Okay. And that's that's all he is. It's like

Dick Vitello with another all these guys. The stories about you. You don't believe how they got into the pro. And then the people that hire him, who you just got to know somebody. And he backs that everybody with Patino. All these guys that he had, he came up with a swim to Jersey. They're from the same leagues that we all grew up in and play them.

Well, I'm Jersey that we he's from. They can't play. I appreciate your candor being New Jersey born and bred and having your relationships with these people throughout your lifetime. They're not going to imagine some of the things that you've had to endure when you're such a young person entering the league as well. If we just remember back to your rookie season, when you are under coach

cotton fit Simmons, the best game of your rookie season was in April of 1976. It was actually against Darryl Dawkins and the 76ers. They came to Atlanta to the Omni and you had a 20 point 18 rebound three block game, which were all season highs for you. And you also had four assists with tie to season high. Now all they're saying is that you're going to

be in the middle of the league. That's a courtesy of the great basketball reference.com. You had the win 123 to 109 and you outscored the 76ers by 16 points in the fourth quarter. So all that said, what was it like to go up against chocolate Thunder as he's affectionately known, resting piece Darryl Dawkins to also have the same experience of going from high school to the

pros, playing against him and having such a great performance. They're Bill. Well, that was a very good moment. We had a good friends. We always call out together. We played, but that was the first game that played over 40 minutes. I think I could have did that like 10 or 20 times. Well, I got to minute. So that's what I think. Coast can stop your career

from playing and cotton drives me. And you know, I can get 20 points to 18 rebounds. And if you'd have played me like 40 minutes, because 18 points and 18 rebounds, our average over 48 minute period. So any ministry play underneath that, I would have points and rebounds to paint 16 point 16 rebounds, 12 points, 12 rebounds and blocks and steals. And that's all I want

to cotton to do. But you can ask to read my any of me said, Oh, I'm a kid. When the 18 ninth and the other guy level play, but different coaches come in and say, well, I didn't drive you. We not regard to me and they don't give you a chance to go in and play. So if you look out to NBA now, it's only a

two year gap. Okay, after two years, you can happily fit the male. Like, die. Shake and trick young guys, but you have guys. Okay. You don't. And you said, to bet again, people like, okay, tea. Then you don't know if you're going to make that third year. That's how hard it is, and we only got one league and coaches a coach that takes him. You know,

no, if you're gonna be coaching teammates here, if the teams when feel me expect patience. So I know all about all of that. That's why I talked to the guys that drafted me, that's what I was like. Now you look at it. If the GM is telling the coach, you better play my player. You can see our agents get guys money when they have a good

season. You got Jewish round or all these guys like that. They get paid like they like the second team or NBA, even if they have his job to 17 to 18. So it's not really a team game. So three point shot. And guys is playing for salaries. Only teams that win as I play together. There's a lot of flash and dash and stuff like that. But

guys, they need to be regulations. What's going on? Because GM, you play my player and you make the agent bad. He was in the place here. I put a mix keep losing. And that's why players don't want to come there. Because if they're married going around with coaches. One year's haunted that one year's physical. There is somebody else coming in there. Then it's well, well, we're

choosing this guy through the table. So just you know, the next year was coast. You're playing last year. Now this ain't playing. Then I'm hoping my agent can get me somewhere else. Yeah, there's a lot of machinations behind the scenes that obviously an observer like me or anybody on the outside doesn't really know the intricate workings of actually what goes on. Yes, all to try to

win a game. I got all kind of stories. I want to put in a book in my dark and many one king on the championship. I tell kids and I do back speaking school. I feel like I'm going to be a little bit more mature. So you got 30 teams and 29 losers go at home. And guys are trying to get big contracts with statistics. And

you play team ball. You play different. And you might be on the move and keep being on the move. So franchise tags and all that guys are playing for statistics. And I think that when I came in in the NBA. That was 18 years old. And that's what it is. You know, GM super good fire. And you got to play for somebody to see you. And

you can even give you a chance to get on the court. Like I said, let me point out score. I had a rebound with it. And I always stay different. If you look at it, I had different to freedom. I was not going to ring. I left a 611 Jimmy Jones. If you look at it magic. And I also met him when he was like still

in college. These guys want to get nobody a job and up like that. We look at a cream and 70. You got worthy of God. Six. Six. Six. Nine. And then you got magic. Six. And I was going to Jim Jones with 611. So I left him and I blocked the 7 for the shot. But then again, I can't get the ball. If I have 4

or 2 shots or yourself it or you do you this and not. So you don't even want to open your mouth. And then that's the way it is. Keep your bags packed and glad that you approach. But I thought the game was trying to win championship not to pad your statistics. And this game is won by agents. Agents is by a score of 20 points. I

can get you 100 million. Glad to see where in the map. So I could write the book on it. Well, I hope that you do. And certainly I hope that you get the rest of this documentary together as well. Return it to your career, particularly in September of 1977 Atlanta traded you to the Buffalo Braves. And on that team, you were teammates with Marvin Barnes, who's

obviously an iconic figure in basketball history. I actually read in a couple of articles that he invited you over for dinner on numerous occasions during that 1978 season with Buffalo. How was your relationship with Marvin? And what did you make of that time spent playing for the Braves? Well, Marvin, when I was in high school, I analyzed these guys. I was preparing the EBA. You actually

get the upset Dr. J after when the championship. So he was a single guy. And yeah, he offered me. Somebody hit you when you ain't looking. You can find out who really did it to you. All right. I'm just having to leave and I stopped really jumping for a while because somebody I mean I got undercut and closed my about a couple of people but I

knew we had my back and. Yeah, he was a guy that watched it. He played a providence and he got. Jack's about 70 pictures taking pick after Bill Walton. Put the dream to play with your idol. He was the rise of the airport together and he said have girls like semi hot meals because it was cold and Buffalo. All these guys are four or five years

older than me so I'm impressed by them and. The whole team he knew basically the ABA so they took care of me. I could go over there house and have dinner. I've got swimnator was on the team. Chuck Williams. Wilbur Jones. They said whole ABA team. John Wilde Brown had and I fit in with them. That's what it was. That one season I met him and

everybody was about older than me. I don't know what would all of the beef. Also I read somewhere that you'd spend multiple nights during the week in a hotel by yourself because you were too young to actually go down stairs to the bar. That's accurate. I guess based on what you were just saying there with having some meals even sent to you sometimes. Correct. Yeah. Correct.

Good. Not a drink. I went 21. I was about 3. Yeah. I was just 20 years old. So. If I was. I wanted to drink or something. Some guys would order it to my rule for me after. Come to get it. And I didn't know it anywhere to go and never have been on the plane before. So a lot of times you guilty about post the

A.C.s. for guys as a reputation as a. A woman. I was using drugs or something like that. They try to say that you do that. But this is your friend. We all come from different areas. Of the country and in the world. And we different ages and I didn't go to college. So after the game, we go and meet people in the hotel and have good

meals and sit and talk. And I was just listening to the college stories that they would be having to. That made the Olympics. And I'd be surprised today because. Oh, you didn't go to college. Oh, you went to the pack. 10. He played with Ernie D. Grigorio. A Providence and. Tell me the stories about him. I know him real good. So I just was hanging out.

All the guys he played with. Why were you. And we said, I just. Just listen to the stories. We go out to. You know, the. Out from the. I will have to go out to discolors with. Clothing want to be. Along. Prior to the 1979 season, the Buffalo Braves franchise was relocated. It was basically a franchise swap. You were relocated to San Diego. And then the

team became the. The San Diego Clippers in mid October of 1978 coach. Gene. Shoe made you the final cut before he. He's regular season with the Clippers. How difficult was it to take that news? Just prior to the regular season that you weren't going to be a member of the Clippers. Oh, he was back on you. We brought a type of guy. He's another guy that.

Played out of a hat. And. Couldn't coach anybody. Path or two way speak. If you look at it, you had the best team in the world. And couldn't win a championship for two years in the world. Yeah, you deserve it. George McKinney. Well, be freed out. Dawkins. The best team in the world. And you lose. And the championship. So I knew. That he wouldn't even give

me a chance. And that's what I tell you how. That. If you from a certain school or you play when he kept people that I was twice as good at. Stop my career. He had Nick Welles. Yeah, all this guy. Starting. And I couldn't make the tea. Every time we play an exhibition game, me and Freeman wins with score every time. You gave us a picking

role play with. Or he would bounce on the floor and I would dunk it or Freeman would have a shot. But like I said, people that played for Billy. They kept calling out Norman. He kept his guy from Auburn. I mean, he kept guys. People don't even remember because he knows him. He coached him. He stayed long enough. That's all the NBA basically. You had your

buddy. And even if he loses, you keep him there. If you look at it, the team world be free. I have a 30. That's right. The only team in the history of the game. To where three guards led the team and scoring. Freeman came up to bench. He was a third leading score on the team. So yeah, well, be free getting 30. Randy Smith getting 20.

Freeman getting like 17. Nobody on that team. I was 10 points. When native was on that team. You know, I think he has his 10 points. So I'd have been on the bench. This guy's like his nickname at space goes. Okay. It will be free. Doctor Boy. Every time you got you had two guards out. Never pass. So I'm glad I wasn't on that team because

after you don't play winning basketball, guys just playing for contract. And they just shoot me. And that's what's wrong with NBA. You got one way players. Play people with the score. Don't play defense. And now the three point guys shoot from 40 feet. And you got some whizz and 16 people battling there for the rebound. I got clothes lying like, you know what that means, right?

Yes. Right arm to the shoulders or head. Yeah. Yeah. You come down head first. Leaping. That's why I stopped leaping the lop because when David Thompson, I think he'll get flipped on his head. So I would go after every block, every rebound. I can really jump. You know, I have one of the top verticals. And these guys with clothesline, you could break it. So you can

even die. Have a concussion. So if you ain't getting a boy, you always look don't look right. It depends about being a San Diego. The guards all those three guards. Never pass. The nation is going twice. And he's my buddy. So we always connect it for 10 to 12 points in the exhibition games. And he's not my career for nothing. Because if I don't play, I

wasn't going to get 10 point. Look, look what I used to do later on in my career. I get 16 point that has time in the way. Teen points. And these guys, the agents that I had the coaches and to shoot me around and all these guys and stand all back was they had my age and all of them were there on me. This part of

my career and plan. But that's when I then played for 10. San Diego because Bob Bigelow guys was going to that team to get three years in the lead, to get a pension. And then it was quitting. I know everything about the game. Because I'm just not a player. I'm a player of the game. I can get you to test it. I could tell you all

the back to the 60s. What the NBA was with what it's doing with Davis. No, no, these people did. So the part to have a career when you are all around play and you see people going for themselves. It's just like, oh, let me shoot the boy. Every time I get it too. Because it's a number. I'm not a player of the game. Okay. I would

bake two players that was trying to get 60 points out there. But my good friend. The good friends that I don't like to talk about. But I'm like, you're just the one way player man. You hang with somebody and you are gangster. But then you go on the court. You're going to put all around the country. You're going to get two shots. If you dunk backwards,

you too fast. Go between your legs. You throw behind your back. Or we don't play like that. But they let all these other people do everything they want. If you think something is a plane ticket you cut. And that's what they do. If you happen to me in San Diego, you're my career guy. You know what I mean? It's bad. It sounds like a tough existence

to say the least. You actually mentioned statistics there. I read somewhere in another article that you would often do stats at home while you're watching games on television. Is that accurate? Oh, no question. Massive medical genius. What made you so interested in the statistics and going to the point where you'd actually chart a game and see what was happening where you just that interested in the

game or you just have a lot of numbers as well. Well, when I came into the league, first the basketball perspective, County Hawkins told me he's one of the best players ever. He made them make it to the 27th. They called them out. He went to the little scandal. But he told me to watch every player you play and you get and keep a shot in

your head of what they do. Can they jump? Can they do? They go left, right? What are they? You have family? They make free throws. I know everybody in the team with my head because that's why I give kids a lot of quick questions. I go to school up to a year, a million, a million, six trillion. You keep going, and numbers are the box score.

They just keep the box goes from the ABA and just cut them out. And then when the season was over, I used to go back and just do the statistics on it. God, I have just 27th. That man. That's got 25.8. So how did they come in that division? Oh, Calculates or multiplication division and do it like this. They used to play a game like that

and keep the statistics. That's the job I was trying to get. The job I'm trying to get was back to work for the lives. Bureau sports allows. Bureau. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I tried to be work for a sneaker company because I went to the school for a year. I think I could put out sneakers that kids are aware of. I want to work for a

plan magazine. I think I could work for my articles. I got a college degree and they still won't let me work or do anything. So you have a coach. Stop your career. This is the main thing that happened. They played them wrong when I went to Houston with Jerry West told me they tried to make me like Michael Cooper. He said, you're not going to get

20 points. And the coaches right there don't have. Okay. And then he said, just run the court and go to the free throw line. So I got to tell them like, uh, give me the ball for a month. I get 20 every game. But I wasn't bold enough to tell Jerry West that whatever. And if you look at it, if you run the court and go

to the free throw line, you can score 10 points for what I feel go attempt. So you good. You can go to the free throw line. That helps you feel go. But then it's, then that means dunk the ball. I'm running on the break. The left I have for my like Kevin McCale and these guys grabbing you on the net and and flipping you in the

air just stopping you from a basket. I thought bad. He won the win. So he's going to tell me to do that. But if I add for more shots to get 20, is it? Okay. The aim. I don't get 20. You can start giving me the ball. It looked like when I played it selfish. Cause he told me, you said, you don't have no play. You

didn't get no plays. You can't get 20. You mad at somebody telling you that. And then you get 18 points and half time when they take your don't need play. You know more. It's a tell you, oh, you're not playing at all. You used to man. You want to go back in the game and do what he'd pay. And he cuts your passion down. I can't

just lose the game. The doctor. The games I could have got 40. 40 points easily. Cause I was just. But can't do it on the bent. Just to get me in the game. Cause I ain't got no plays. So when you hot like that, you can go. You just get the ball and shoot it. Cause you know what's going. So I think I can do is

keep you under bent. And this one guy is like James do. And he rebounded and cut me. I'm in the game. The bottom score. You got 18. You got this. Yeah. In 20 minutes. And I'm playing different. I'm playing defense now. If you watch me when I play in the South, the series and all that. I play defense at off. I don't think nobody ever played

the minutes that I play that when I was blocking people shot. Everybody on the team. I blocked it shot. Okay. And when they gave me the ball, I scored with it. But what they do is you get 16. Then you get four to next game. You do that. The math. That's 10 points. Yeah. So what they'll do is. Yeah. Play you 20 minutes. You get 14

15 points. You have a good game. In the next game, you'll play 20 minutes, but you'll get eight. You'll never get more play and try for to accept. So you keep them at 10 point and playing deep. And. Look, look, look what happened when I played in the climbers. When I was in Houston. How are you going to start a person? The second half or two

captain to games. But I'm not good enough to start the game. You go play me the second half. And I only have a plate. Just think of that. How are you going to feel? What can I do? I can name these people's names. Or you like to write a book or do anything up? You know, Jerry went to the logo of NBA. You're not going to

stay in my friend again. Hey, let me tell you something. You won't do it. Absolutely. It's really hard balancing act. And when your minutes are restricted or you don't get the opportunity to show your immense talents and make a difference. Even want to have a passion for the game, no matter what level you're playing. As you said, it doesn't need to be 30 points a game,

but you want to make sure that you've contributed. You've been a part of the team and it's their overall experience. Exactly. I used to tell me we coqueted. Joe had me now. It was a lot of old. I'm like, you can shoot all you want because you miss. I'm going to get the rebound. I don't care if I get my points off the board. Well, in

the break, I just want to play in the game. I'm going to care about that. And I didn't think the pros are like that. That's why guys are good. I'm going to play like a hundred games and then go to and work for Tony or Magnet Rock or something. This play basketball for fun. You said the pros is like this. I think you wouldn't believe it.

Got to like you. You make an expression or fuck your teeth with up. Like that. Look what happened to Nate Robinson when he played for the next world. Dan Tony. He won the duck and contest three years in the road. He won on the break and bounced on the floor and tried to duck and he missed it. He's down for 20 straight games and traded them.

And people like that. He's a entertainment of the game. And it wasn't that his man scored another end. Wasn't like all he stopped playing a difference. He probably went down the court and made so nobody scores. But he has them. You can see you on the team like that. That's what I'm playing with you. Brown and Gene. You and guys like that is the personal thing.

The other part of the game is that they still your money. And then people don't know that they just turn actually hired the guy for the money. That's all how money. You can look on the truck. Well, I'm not going to be a little bit more. I'm going to be first and South. If you look at that after pre-encouraged history. Okay. My lawyer made a mistake

and didn't sue Louis Depelle to mind me. He why he was only my lawyer instead of my agent. My agent was Lucifer. He's only mind me. He and my lawyer didn't do him. So he had to pay me. So look like they was in co-host and David Stun knew this all the time when I won my case. Will it be with the doctor? He told the

team the Pat Roder. Look, look at this. What whether the new book out. I'm talking. I'm going back to the prevene. I tell him a story. Look a blood on the floor on the floor with where Pat Roder did to the next day. And I wanted to. And he'll be Brown was there too. That was worse than that. Okay. I could give you names to the

athlete. Look what you'll be Brown did. T five. Kevin MacKale to a friend loaded 90 million dollar contract knowing that he wasn't going to get his money. Then they changed around the rowing spirit. Marvin Webster and bligh Williams. He and what none of them. So the thought is also behind them. So they double a triple. They contract. And he didn't want the players that he had

on the team. And he knew MacKale. So it was just. It looked like he or I'll give you 90 million. Even though who would like first of the first of the first of the few stuff like that where you restricted or something. Okay. So this was the kind of deals was going on in the 80s. Backstabbing and stuff like that. And they didn't even want where

we're going to be. And they found to like $500,000. They wouldn't only work like a 200,000 or something. So they. So the thought of five. You ain't got to have a team if you don't find these guys. Yeah. It's playing one team against another against us for the. The guy of the other person. I don't know. Yeah. Up your salary. We're giving 90 million. The thought

this was quite probably going to give them 30 million. They gave you like 80 out of 90. They're exaggerating. 70 or something. He just used them. Just send a player that I have. I don't even want. So the thought is going them back to him. This is like ridiculous. This is people that own the team. And they be thinking I'm dumb. I'm like, oh, I'm in

play. I had a technical career. I'm like, these guys robbed us of our money. They didn't play us. So I took the lead. I kind of pretend. I don't know how that feels. So I won't say anything particularly about that. But I do feel the obvious frustration there that you must be experiencing and still thinking back to these sort of times. I'm not trying to try

to bring up bad interactions or memories for you. But just in relation to your time after you left the Buffalo Braves. You mentioned Magic Johnson a while ago. I read that you were on the Lakers pro pro summer league roster in mid July of 19 79. So that's right around the time where Magic left Michigan State to join the Lakers. Did you have any any interactions

with Irvin at that time? Or what was that experience like to be part of that summer league trying to look for another team to play for their bill? I knew Magic before that I was in the pro. He's two year younger than me. So I actually made the map from the Dallas classic. We played in the bullets and he was playing in the Dallas classic. So

when I was divided to play with the with the Lakers. I couldn't meet the team that year. But they had a lot of contracts that they on 18 and like 17 guys in culture. So they couldn't find me that. Well, yeah, he played with us in the summer league. Thursday, California league. We used to go pick him up right after the game and talk. And actually

I could have played for the Lakers. That what I had to do. Lewis himself. Never called them up. And I missed out on opportunity right there. And Magic was going to help me. He told me the game and it agents talk or whatever it was. And call him. I can't. I'm a Lewis. Louis' and Jerry Davis. So all four reps. They're going to get me something.

But actually they were stealing my money. So just the thing got up. Old to mind me. He for 800 million still. 18 19 years. Money. Okay. And that's what I said. I don't want to be no star man. I want to go. And I still basically put me like a Michael Cooper. I know I wouldn't start it there. But I know people would have treated me

different. If I was a man on the 10th to 16 just by winning. You know, go see the president. And I'll never want to be treated like that. I just want to play ball. Have fun with my friends. And do that. Give it give it a give it a. If the family game for the class give them the money's worth. And yeah, I met magic. He's

a good criminal. My eyes were like it's a day and there's a family. People you meet. I got 20 30 club. The people for my hometown. I never come back. Well, I know magic. But he from from Michigan. He did this thing. But I don't think there's no better than me. I think I could get 30. Hold in the 10. Because a lot of games out

there. I said I could figure guys out easily. And they cried and they cried and they called. Their defenders to make a hold out. And me like I'm there. I'm using my goddess shooting all the time. When you don't have a boy. I'm helping out all the time. I read that you signed with the Clevver Cavaliers in September of nineteen seventy nine. But what led to

the Cavist signing you as a free agent? How did that come to be well actually? He was the makers coach in the Thumbelieu and he was assistant coach for Jerry Web. And that's how I got the opportunity to play for the Cavaliers because he got the job him and another guy McCleffsky. I think that's a name he wants to Detroit. These were guys that the Ciccocer

Lakers that got GM job and coaching jobs. So he knows the place. Yeah. Yeah. Now I think I'm not sure if that's a name, but he became the the the you know, the man is a Detroit piston. Yeah, that's him. Yeah, trying to jack them. Yeah. That's them. So they gave me the one of the Lakers that was too much Hollywood and stuff with me. You

know, I didn't want nobody to treat me different. Just by me when the championship. I was New York, New Jersey area and people got your house and stuff every day. And you know, I'm the other single man. So I'm with the Cleveland and then go to LA because I don't think it was at that time. I didn't have I don't think I had nobody to keep

me home and keep me away from all the Hollywood parties and all that. So I kind of spoke with the Cleveland and I played and I have one and if you look at it, but Jerry work. That's what he does all the time. He was from the from the poor. It gets to the rich because I was in Cleveland. And you look at Cleveland in LA.

They swap players all the time. So I probably got James worthy. I was dead. They traded like Dave Roebach and Kenny Card dog for illustrative all in with Lakers with Cleveland and other thing went. It almost nothing. Then you had Jimmy Jones. All these guys come from the from Cleveland to the Lakers even what they make. So that's what happens. A lot of teams make deals

and give each other the players that they need to win championships. They say, yeah, give me this player. You have to play. Give me a draft pick. So actually, they swap picks for Kenny Card and Bush Lee. And I've got to get James Roebach because Cleveland after that. They didn't win at all. They didn't do nothing. That's why they changed it to where you. You can't

have two drafts. Yeah, I got picked plays a more specific thing in a row trade it because Cleveland was filing players with the contract. He still Steady. Was taking over as the owner in Cleveland, correct? Yeah. Yeah. And then he was fining. He kind like Scott Webmin, Jane Cyrus by the Microsoft. But big cancer, and they still was coming to Lyars Lee. Give away, they drive

picked. Yeah. So I left there. If you look at it, everybody, it's just, it's crazy. So every year, the league, you go stuff going on like that. You come down to high school and you think it's going to play ball, man. You go to college with there. There's no money. Can't do nothing. Okay. You can be able to sports illustrated cover and God really really going

to school. You really going to get a job with your education. So you come to the league and you don't play. It's how I look like you can't play. You look in the body. You don't do nothing. People don't even know at all that that's one of the things. From the SEC, the ACC, if you look at any sport off their ears, pre-annual guys run the

other big money of sports. Okay. Not college colleges. That you get a case of one was TV, sports illustrator, stuff like that. People make them money and you get into the pro. And you need to shoot it. You don't fit in. You can leave the nationals. You can't just run the school and make it if you can't play deep links. You turn above your pass. You

get cut. You're thinking, I'm the best dude in the country. I know I'm going to get it. All you can go and play 10 years. That's what I was doing. When I was in Cleveland, I just want to play. Well, they keep one guy in there who's getting 25 every night. And then it's a different forward. Me, down floor, Kenny car. We started some kind of

we not started. That's what I'm doing. I couldn't with the LA, but you don't know how. There's the B. If you got a, well, Ben's or Rose Royce, or you wear diamonds and Gucci and all that stuff that people want to be riding because you got that. And when you have enough plan for a team that's maybe make the playoffs and hear me. I'm fine with

that. You know, I have to have all the gusto and teams that win. Or we great. And I'm a sportsmanship. I play rock. I got sportsmanship awards and everything about where to lose and how you play the game. I did like that. Hey, Toss. In Cleveland, I noticed that you were reunited with a teammate, you were with in Buffalo. Randy Smith, a guy you mentioned a

bit earlier. He scored more than 16,000 points in his career. He was an all NBA player in all star twice. I'm not overly familiar with Randy's career, but I know he was a great player. How talented was he? Bill. Yeah, only one guy broke his record. The 80 green actually broke his record to the 11 years later. Nobody's faster. He played soccer. Okay, he could jump

out of any guard. He only like 62 or something like that. Yeah, he used to wipe me over two. Washed me whole. Cook me. Stuff like that. A lot of guys are out of lives that I got to play with at a young age. Because I was always cold and buffalo. It was a lot of fun. They were mad. They actually take the game. He was

on the all star teams also in the deep. And I gave him a video tape of it for him and his mom. And he came and watched it. So Randy was a good friend of mine and in Cleveland. There was nice to know, you know, you play with somebody before. And you never feel alone. I said, I've been a single man or a whole life or

whatever. It seemed like a home. Everybody get a home cook meal. They got a wife and kids. But you go on the road. Everybody is together. Everybody standing at the hotel. And we go to enemy territory trying to win. That was a nice to get back with him. Sadly, past the way in 2009, only 60 years old, very sad indeed. Who was the best player you

ever played with or against? Could you narrow down? And the one person? Oh, the best person I play with with George Gov. The awesome man. Who the hardest to guard. It was probably family looking. You're right. How'd it go? The best player. It's probably Bernard King. George Gov. He's probably the best one on one player ever. I think with Bernard King was just unstoppable. I think

you mentioned earlier about Bernard's book. Have you read his book? It was called Game Face. Oh, yeah, yeah, I know. I'm going to be really good. Yeah, Albert. Yeah. Yeah. I do the way I do a movie on the two. Okay. Right. There you go. After you left the Cavaliers, the article said that you headed over to Italy, the play before the chance to join the

Houston Rockets in the NBA happened later that same year. No, that's not true. That's not true. No. Oh, because I turned out opportunities to go over there because they know how they was treating people here, like Aaron James, and they aren't Douglas. Really. Why these guys wanted to get me to come over there, but I never went. Oh, I can. Wouldn't like I want to play

basketball. No more, but I don't think nobody had my back. So I wasn't going to go in a country route. Why do I speak the language just to play basketball and make money? So I knew what I wanted to do. Pearl. I wasn't going to play about 10 to 12 years at 30. Just how they had to hook up. You look surprised. I was like, I'm

going to go to school. Play to 30. Go to school for five years. We're all about to throw money. We kicked in. So I got my picture. If you stole the money, that's me all up. What do I mean? He stole everybody? And that's what happened. That's why I feel out of the. I didn't want to play ball. No more. If I wouldn't go out here

for the love of the game, I think how much money they paid me to go back to school. They said, why are you in here with us? I said, I wish you have your drain. Come true. This is how they would have acted. I was thinking of a ball, whatever, and see how it is. The lifestyle. And I would say that the people that you see

going up, you're going to see coming down. So you don't want people to think they want to do a good job, wherever you at. So I wanted to stay in one place, find love or something and help the young kid. So I couldn't do that plan. Boy, but I didn't think there was no. Even one season to see what you can do. I think I was

20 years ahead of my time because you look at it. Kobe, Guy Reds and so the broad Kate. She and all these guys, they let them play right away. I did the thing. They ought to have a 15 year career. They're going to all start. If they let me do that. So that's why I went to school. And I'm like, I love basketball. But I didn't

want to dunk no more. I didn't want to jump no more. Just like get the ball and pass somebody and do it. The whole thing. Then even basketball. No, all the exuberance was taken out of your love for the game. If that's the age it sounds like. In light, November, I have 980. You saw it as a veteran for your agent with the Houston Rockets. How

did the opportunity to join Houston come about? Well, when I turned down the liquor deal, I didn't get time right away. Then I did an article on a B T. Forget the guy's name. Him and the son were announces. And you say, wow, wasn't in the lead. And I got picked up the next day. Because if your agents start calling people when you're slamming the internet,

you're going to be like, what's going on? You see the people that they call your agent. If you tell them call your agent, they want you to come up without your agent. So I'm part of the year because that's what happened. And then I got put on TV. And I just got back with Houston. Yeah. In this day and age, obviously things are a lot different

with social media around the internet. But back then, fortunately, it sounds like TV exposure then lead other teams to realize that you're available and you end up joining the Rockets that way. Right. Is that exactly. In 1981, on that Rockets team, you became teammate with Moses Malone. And of course, we mentioned earlier that he jumped straight to the ABA out of high school. What was it

like to be playing together? On the Rockets given you both had that similar experience of foregoing college. Yeah, we took the Houston Rockets to the playing. We talked to each other and was a pretty to play with him. I remember him from back in the day. I got a lot of playing. And that's what we went to the finals. We could have won it, but like

I said, you got a coach and that starts you in the second half of its campaign tips series. At each time you went to a lot. And then for some thing, basketball is just not my life. They don't judge how good nobody is. And these guys staying in the coaching business, 2020, fly years. Well, I rather be a coach or commentator in a place. So if

you look at it, put it down like Mark Jackson and Van Gundy and he's got you leave that job, like that. And it's in the job where you got to know somebody to get it. So they go coach your team and get fired. And then they go, hey, why do that when you can just talk the game? I know guys like Agent Wagenowski who did like

10 articles on you. You can really with him. Yeah, that's a large. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, there's a comment. These guys wrote 10, 12 articles on me. And these guys won't even expect from my own. For calling me like they know me. When I graduated, they put me on the cover of newspapers and magazines. And I clearly know me. So that's what I was saying.

That's why I can care to play with the Lakers and be stars. You're going to know me. I went champion. So I was like, I'm going to be a little bit more. I'm going to be a little bit more. I'm going to be a little bit more. I'm going to be a little bit more. I'm going to be a little bit more. I'm going to be

a little bit more. I'm going to be a little bit more. I'm going to be no more. Okay. You probably rise on the roads. It's like laughing to his belly aching. Yeah. He knows and college. Those guys are not going to collapse. And it's the only. The amount of spots in NBA. They superstar. Driven and Hall of Fame driven. I'm like, I'm just good at any

of them. I'm a worker guy. I'm a street ball player that made to the NBA. I'm going to no college. Okay. And they know I had guards. And I replaced them. I was playing docks. I played all these guys. Never got no credit. Because I ain't no stack man. And then you get some money stolen. So whatever I've done to anybody to do that. I can't

get a job. I got a degree. So Agent one is now. You know, nothing about basketball. He can't play. Rose bar. You know, it's the management. Me and him can go out and like I had his job. Well, he had to decide stuff because that was his job. But I was a player. I knew a lot for being a player. And I'm the only guy on

a 42 players that came out of high school. I did not know that there you go. That's that's a fantastic achievement in itself to have the motivation and the perseverance to actually go through and and complete the degree is yeah, definitely a great achievement. Thank you. I appreciate it. In terms of the 1981 NBA finals, what is your strongest memory from that six game series against

Boston? They ultimately would win four games to two was only the second season of Larry bird. Oh, that I'm clearly never again. And I'm going to be a player. I'm a player office in defense. As I said, I started to two games on the second half and I wouldn't start none the team. They told me I was needed. And we would have won the 30 if

Moses didn't say even bulletin boy stuff. He said that I could take four guys from my hometown. It'd be to talk to him. Okay, he hated him that bad. And you know, say that in the paper, because that's bulletin boy stuff. You can see they have blood in their eyes. We were the beat up. We held birds like 11 points a game. And he couldn't do

nothing. After you have your head. We held them out of nothing. When he said that, gone bread and then have blood in their eyes. So they didn't even use carbon mercy. The one for carbon mercy would have never gotten to the flames. You have 46 and gave seven to 70 miles against the spurs. He did not use them at all in the flame. He's a whole

the same at all. Here. God could give 40. So I didn't say anything after. Man, we should have one game or two games with Moses and carbon take all the time. All the shots. Both in touch. We're the beat them. You know, but you can't tell the coast what to do. Just to day. And every time they put carbon in, he's only five nine, but he's

one of the toughest players ever playing the game. When I got into the NBA, I started being his coach. Like I tell you about you. How you got 12 players, let me just go one on one. That's good. You got to have plays. You got to have get to your best players. Then you don't know a good player from another one. But other people, the high

price guy. Get the praise, but they don't get the days get raw. They don't say that. Or you know, he's a lost rubber. The rest is famous. First time in Houston, Rock have got to the finals. And people know me. And that's what I'm trying to get this picture right now. To be known all over the world again, because you look at their pictures. I caught

his dunk and the people in the LA name, and kind of flubber. Son of flubber. You know what that is? I've heard of the movie flubber, but I'm sure it's not to do with that. Now, I'm going to do it. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. A Walt Disney character. I think it was very loofer. And that grabbing on his feet. Okay. Yeah, right. Son of

flubber. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's what every fan's calling you. Oh, I know me like I'll play from LA. So that's why I want to use. You're good, man. That's why I want to use on the picture. When I put it out there. Yeah. That's clever. I like that. So that first round series, just speaking of, because you had to defeat the defending

champion. Lakers to get through. I think it was then Kansas City and San Antonio. You defeated it as well. On the way to the finals. But that series in the first round against the Lakers. You upset them in Game 1 at LA. They then won back in Houston for Game 2. And then you defeated the champs in Game 3 by I think three points. You had

that incredible block in Game 1, which I've seen a photo of in a newspaper, but I've heard the commentary. And it's a fantastic moment. You got Karim again in Game 2. So you're one of a very select few who actually blocked his shot. If you had to identify a single moment from your career, is that the pinnacle for you as far as being able to swap

Karim's sky hook? No question about it. To have defensive freedom. Because I would have never left my man to help out. If the coasting fair did he should tell me that during the season where if you could go and get it, go get it. Every time I feel bad for the world, go up and shoot it. Look like a popcorn machine or something to me. I

feel like I want to go grab. If I wasn't scared the way I would land, I would block 9 or 10 shots a game. If I didn't think nobody would undercut me on the, they told us something like that. So I used to have to keep my stuff on the grounds and I don't go for that. It's too dangerous. Because I actually block Karim shot. I

blocked the twice in a game. They call the gold 10. And I remember my cousin telling me, yeah, because you let it out of his hand. The first one I blocked him. She is in his hand. It's like I blocked this duck with the one that I blocked. I blocked it almost to half court. Would they look at it? Oh, you saw the finger tip that

you can't block. Can we shut like that? But I probably perfectly incredible hops for sure. Son of Flubba makes perfect sense when I think about it. In mid October of 1982, you signed as a veteran free agent with the San Antonio Spurs and per basketball reference. You played 52 games with San Antonio. You had double figures nine times and your season high was 18 points at

Denver. How was that tenure with the Spurs bill? To win the Phoenix. That's why I messed up again. Because I almost want to tell Walter Larry NAS and Alvin Adams and then the Blue the championship by going there. I went there with one of the championship. We did a game. I had an agent. Never called the guy. Okay. Didn't stand hard back who I played before

with Cleveland. We took me because I took out. Could be the final piece of them winning the championship. So I play with him. I knew Mike Mitchell before and was alright with Garvin. I know Garvin for. He was in the ABA and they bought me off the bench and that was a mistake. When they started Gene Banks and Gene Banks was only six four. Power forward

to the top of the hill. In San Antonio never made it nowhere. Garvin never made it to the final or nothing. So they didn't use me correctly. And I thought we could have won the championship. We just had to get by L.A. But they were stuck. They had them by a Mack through Colorado. They brought the bench Michael Cooper. They beat him again. And they keep

me on the team the whole year. Because they wanted me. To play defense. And I was keeping up officers. But. Antonio they gave us like 140 points. Now when that type of player it wasn't a situation where. I could kind of see. Certain people going to shoot all the time and some people going to do that to keep their average up so they could pay. And

then not trying to win. I know basketball so well that. And you know that I'm going to fight the ball. And you know that I'm not a pastor. They have a 25 point. But know what this. You go find a way to make this guy take bad shots. And that's what happened with. Antonio you had like Mitchell George. Garvin. These guys just gunning. Nobody was under

the. Boy, Gene Banks was six four. So they had no rebound and I just thought. Join play 18 20 minutes. So as good as you are you ain't going to get beat the player real men rebound play defense. I kind of didn't want to be a star. I'm not a superstar. I really didn't. I found kind of crazy. But I don't think I couldn't have the

last hour comes with it. It didn't. If you look at it, it's always a lot of women and drugs around. And that's another part of the game people on the day. You remember I passed away. You had a watch of Davis and all these guys turned their friends here with a great talent. That could die. And they just didn't quit. They had to go to rehab

and a lot of guys was telling on people. That we get to judge. I'm not saying I would have used it. I'm not an interview. But when it's passed around like candy. I'm just glad that I didn't have no drug problem and have women that ain't a good father with. You never get credit for those little things. But that's when I'm proud of. So go back.

Probably been in the Phoenix. I think that might have grabbed me. That's why I tell you I didn't want to be no superstar. No star. Nothing like that because with next to the role, Royce is. The diamond to go. The couple of words. Then all the third, your last dollar, two, three, what else can you do? I did read in numerous articles. Actually, well, I saw

it's researching for our chat today where you had similar quotes where you were talking about not wanting to be a superstar in the fact that some of the things that come along with that would possibly end up wearing one down. You've kept that as a constant throughout your life. Even to this day talking about it being that way. So you appreciate the honesty and openness in

late March. You signed a 10 day contract with your home state new Jersey Nets, and then you signed a deal to play for the rest of the season with the Nets. And that also continued through to the 1984 NBA playoffs. How did it feel for you to have a chance to play with the Nets team? You'd been linked to a few times earlier in your career,

particularly given your obvious ties to the area. Yeah, we had to be a connection. And of course, I played with before. I was Larry Brown, and I went there to make sure I played with Dan Arbat. Then I got to play with Dow Dawkins. So that made the whole thing like my book and everything we talked about. I want to get to the locals, about how

to do pros. Okay, I played with Moses. I played with Dow. And we hung out. I know they have my back. And after another team, we could have won the championship there. It was coaching. Guys get scared. Get out. Coach, but first year that we lost to the mix when Larry Brown left, and got another coach there. We went out. But the next year, I stand

all back. We beat the pictures in the first round. It was the second champion. And we didn't want to go into the finals that year. But he approved to play. People come off the bench. And Milwaukee. I'll play. Thank God I'll play Moses and Philadelphia. I had Tony and those guys, Dr. J. So I felt that I should have been playing a lot more. I could

have had championship experience. And I could just die. Anybody that was hurting us. So just playing with Dawkins and being a whole, but being my New York City got it was fun. Cloud Me and men's coming to the game. It's always good. And I kept everything good. I had a whole. I was looking for love at that time. And I was just saying, yeah, I'm gonna

go try to maybe go over to see Dr. J. After that, because I could see that it wasn't playing me. And thought I had all the money that I need to have. I wanted to play 10 or 12 years, but that was my eighth year in the league. I just basically want to stay in one place and go to school. Then after my lawsuit and stuff

came up, I realized that we've been the off. So that really gave me a bad taste about basketball. So I was looking for somebody who basically really cared. And I didn't want to be a so called like kind of Hollywood. And. I didn't want TV man. Oh, you this now. Why you ain't TV anymore? You know, why you not playing man? Why this and take too

long to explain what they see with they really see. They call you off when they want. And. They use you and I got some examples of it that they could play you to to trade you. You taking the only thing to get a contract and they just playing you to so they can get ready. And I mean basketball does not make me who I am. I'm.

I'm in sports education, fashion, music and social justice. That depends me. So me being the first out of high school. It being known to be ways to draft it out of high school be the youngest and make it to pre call history. Going back to school. And I just want to motivate the young kids. Especially when I'm from I said you could be right there with

your eyes. But I didn't. In terms of your college degree. You went back and got your college degree. What did you enjoy most about that? I was learning a tragic graduation. Oh, everything, everything. And from the first credit to the one on the 20th credit. Person there. And get through. Be the first to come out of the house. The person get a degree. And I motivated

everybody. Now why every sport like I was just in college. Like I was young 18 years old. And I talked and I want to go back there put my doctor many in there. Because I cried in there and got everything on the credits. Math English like I say calculus. I don't know what I did at all. So you put your mind and come. You can do

anything that you can do. And I just went to all the games. Bowling, rock, come, baseball. And I felt great about that. I'm trying to motivate people education. I can rap. I could dance. I could do anything because I said in my mind, I always use a guard. But I always play just like my coach is happy and get my best. And that's what I did.

And I think I'm one of a kind. Doing that plan in New York. Nobody created New York. And Jersey like that was the first team of the American. So I got both experiences. And I could tell with somebody's plan. Just for numbers. But now. It's just a big money game. Three points shot. How do you take dunking out of the game? The ABA had a three

point shot. The American game of totally. If you look at it, the three points shot was a gimmick from the ABA. It was a gimmick. It was right. Oh, you losing a game. One point. What is the 98? The home team is 100 points. They get three pizza. So how's that going to a strategy of a championship game? You talked about some of the things that

define you. What are you most passionate about? These guys bill. I live up in Pennsylvania. And I'm like, I want to have from where I grew up from New York. And England. So I sent them to the Earl Monroe School. We'll have a basketball school there with a teach kids about what really kids worth administrative. And I might go back and get a massive degree so

I could teach in there. And I want to speak from from kindergarten all the way up to college. My college fairly dick is in my school. I went to Dwightmore High School and just talk about everything. I try to tell kids only two or three hours in a basketball game. What you do with the other 21. You know, get your proper rest. Eat right. And don't

think you meant to nothing out there. You know, everybody's part of the air. And you just stay home and get some light. I care about you and look forward to making a difference out here. I think I'll have. Because people know me as a first guy that came in high school. That's what I'm proud of. And just be a recognize where oh, let me come talk

to you. Your kids man. And it could be 88. Not this basketball. Two closing questions. If you don't mind, events so generous with your time today. Basketball digest. How do I have? I'm a feature which was called the game I'll never forget. Is there one particular game from your career, whether it's high school or the pros that stands out more than any other? Not one particular

game. I pick up the total game. I'm the fly by E. Play the game to win and entertain the fan who paid money. So you go to the club after the game. You say, don't want from me, man. Or do this move, man. That makes me. I'm a do it for them. The dunk one for me. Playing against Dr. J. Family and some Dow doctors. You

playing against this person. And I look forward to talking to the people. So it's not one to fly at a moment. Well said. Did you have any particular significance to the Jersey numbers that you were during your career? I think you're 32 and 33 in high school. But then with Atlanta Buffalo and Houston, you were number 32. And you had number 33 when you're with Cleveland,

San Antonio and New Jersey. You're a numbers man. So is there any significance there at all? I school. I wore 24. And that was because I met Jimmy Walker. You know Jimmy Walker. Here's a number on draft pick, wasn't he? I'm not sure. Yeah, maybe 28 for a rap for a month. Well, you know, I'm not sure. Yeah, he played for the trade pistols for Providence.

So he's J. L. Rose's father. Of course. My aunt, husband took me to meet him when I was in like six grade. He won number 24. So my first year up in high school, one number 24. And then some teams that you have. If you were 24 at home, 25 on the road, so 32, 33. That's my war and high school. And I was, you know,

I was Dr. Jay's number. When I was in the high school, Walter David, he was my idol also. I got to meet him because I'm out of trouble. I got to know. I met all those guys. Well, I love visit. I met him and this car checked. Feel for a couple of hours and go there. And I just took the tucky because I was in North

Carolina. I stayed for years. But it never had a guy leave early. You can tucky didn't care if I left early. So you're 32, 32. I got to Jay. Like Dr. Dale, when I grew the ninth grade, definitely went to the ABA. So I was like, six, five, then he was six. So I tried to call him. Emulate what he's doing. But I was seeing him

over in the rock. We play our high school games before them. Oh, wow. Yeah, I got to meet him and stuff like that because we would play the high school all-star games. And then you were serving in fly wheels and George Garvin, all those guys would play after that. I would love you. I met all the guys. I spent time in Hawkins. And we actually come

at home and we had to go to school the next day. Man, I'm not mad. I'm not mad. I really do that. I don't know. In New York, pity man. You met all these guys. I said, yeah, man. We're close. Doing it another time. So that was like the record. I love it. Well, Bill, it's been great to have you on the show today and learn

more about your life. Thanks very much for making yourself available. I'd like to thank you and Nese and nephew who actually helped connect me in the first place to you. So thanks again. And all the best. And I do hope that the documentary gets finished off. And I look forward to hearing more about the T-shirt. You're looking to hopefully produce with Karim and also a book

might be forthcoming. So all the best across all those avenues. Well, yeah, you're pretty. In appreciate our team and getting to you so we can speak. And actually they go on the internet and everything from there trying to help me with the book and team. No, that went for them. I wouldn't have. Thanks for taking time to chat to some guy in Australia. It's been a

thrill to speak to you, Bill. Okay, you're welcome. Thanks for listening. I welcome your interaction with the show. Tap the microphone icon on my website to send me a voicemail. You can suggest discussion topics or guests you'd like to hear conversations with. Time to add us to share another great review from a fan of the show. Thanks to Josie 99 via Apple podcasts United Kingdom. I'm

a great Britain and Northern Ireland. It's titled entertaining look at 90s basketball and is rated five stars. It reads started listening to this podcast at the end of 2019. And even more once the lockdown happened in Scotland. I found myself starting from the beginning and working my way through the collection of episodes. The interviews are always insightful entertaining and sometimes very funny. I get a real

kick of nostalgia from my youth in the 90s listening to the Jordan. And bull stories. Thanks Adam and keep up the great work. Mark Joss in Scotland. Thank you, Mark. Your champion. I really appreciate the review mate and thanks for being a faithful listener of the show. Worldwide the show has 198 ratings on Apple podcasts with an average of 4.9 stars with 101 reviews across all

providers. Thanks for your continued support. If you add a review, I'd love to read it out on a future episode. Your ratings and reviews are one of the best. Thanks for your continued support. I'm Chris Reyes, search in all anus, three words on your listening app of choice. The show was available on most platforms. Check the podcast archive for plenty more episodes with a great range

of guests. Join me next time for another edition of the show.