Untitled episode

done to send a message as much as anything else that uh they're doing this and they're not trying to do it secretly they they want people to understand what they've done am I right in that uh in that assessment that is a a good of a an analysis as anyone we don't know what exactly is in their head but my conclusion is that they have an

optional approach they are trying to um use a weapon that um they cons continually improve over the years and invest millions and millions in making more efficient uh on the hope that um it may remain undiscovered but in the case it get discovered it has it has such a scary reputation that it achieves a different outcome which is fear and intimidation so they win from their

point of view either way if it remains undiscovered they win if it gets discovered and it points to them they also win they have zero reputation cost and thus you're right that they don't mind being discovered well and on top of that the Russians are notorious that when they do get caught red-handed whatever they're doing they just lie about a good example that's the the invasion

of Ukraine they get on TV all the time and say well we this wasn't our fault that you know America did this America caused this it just it's it's phenomenal that uh that they can do that and and yet uh people shrug their shoulders and walk away from it so anyway well listen for all three of you I I have a question uh that I'd like

to perhaps a general answer and time's limited so if you'd give me as brief answer as you could I would appreciate I think we're at a point on the planet where countries are deciding which club they're going to belong to is it a freedom and democracy and a and a government that is created by the people and operated by the people and and disciplined by the

people or or is it a dictatorship an autocracy and of course the two governments operate very very differently and Uh I knowe that uh none of the cases that been referred to here today uh come from Democrat countries they come from the autocracies and uh uh so I think that our challenge as human beings over in this in this Century in the 21st century is going

to be trying to figure out how the two groups of of countries exist on this planet without killing each other because I think one thing we can all agree on North Korea Iran China they're not going to change they're going to be the same for a long long time to come for the the foreseeable future you you hope that there's some change but hope as we

all know isn't much of a strategy uh and and the democracies are not going to change we're not going to change Great Britain's not going to change the the countries that make up those uh the group of free countries aren't going to change so the the the conduct we're talking about specifically in this in this hearing is our our small instances and I say that not

to demean them because when I say small I mean compared to a war like what's going on in Ukraine or in Israel they're they're a unique specific incident they wind up in a newspaper reporting everybody reads it and what have you but they turn the page and move on to sports or something else so so how do we deal with these uh from country to Country

how how do we as a country deal with these uh with the countries who perpetrate that and other free countries without going to war over them obviously and there needs to be some kind of discipline there needs to be some kind of accountability but how do you do that what what what's what's your recommendation in how we deal with these let's go down to these just

like we started Mr G if you start very briefly and I've said this before I would advocate for um invoking the principle of universal jurisdiction whereever feasible to investigate crimes that otherwise remain uninvestigated because Bad actors are not going to investigate themselves um so many countries have the principle of universal jurisdiction partly the United States can invoke it but a crime that happens across several countries

outside of the United States and has its core its basis of an action decided in Moscow can still be Pro prosecuted but it is not at the moment everybody delivers the the benefit of the principle of uh judicial sovereignty to Bad actors and this is one one way that it I think can be somewhat um curtailed but you also pointed out that not every country is

in the camp of either the bad actor or the good actor some countries are borderline they're nominally democracies and they are in many respects democracies but they sometimes are afraid of taking action against China or Russia because of economic pressures and those are are very Insidious non-actions sometimes for example Bulgaria Hungary um Georgia the country of Georgia within certain governments are afraid to prosecute Russian crime

or Chinese crime that happen on their territory and such non-actions actually can be sanctioned um Can sanctions can be imposed against the people not Prosecuting by the United States so these are two examples I could see as very practical I'm on a time of M briefly Mr bro it's what thank you for the question uh a couple points I'd like to make first of all I

think since Freedom House Began reporting on this phenomenon three or four years ago I think that democratic governments have actually begun to kind of be much more aware of the problem and to actually do things about it is it perfect no but you see uh law enforcement agencies like uh the Justice Mar Homeland Security the FBI uh their agents are are are being educated about the

problem they're noticing these cases that might not have it might not have noticed before uh we talked with Western uh democracies as well they are really they are really be begin to be much more focused on this issue there's not like a silver bullet Senator with this I I think that uh you know we have a in our in my testimony I outlined a range of

different things sanctions uh Visa bans you know this the creation of tip lines for people to tip off law enforcement this is going to be a a generational struggle I think when you know Russia as you point point out Russia and China are not going anywhere other countries are choosing sides now and I think what's really important is for particularly the United States government but other

democracies to make clear that this is unacceptable behavior and to not sweep this under the rug uh so when especially you know people that are friendly to the United States I mentioned India and Saudi Arabia and these are in Saudi Arabia is a significant perpetrator of of of trans pression we've had two big cases that have been outlined from India recently this should be a matter

that is in the bilateral relationship and and if it's seen us sweep being swept under the rug then I think other governments will not take it as seriously Senator Mendez thank you Mr chairman um the People's Republic of China has committed a Despicable campaign