Ethereum Price Crash Nearly Broke Defi - Here's W

Welcome everyone, it's the Gryptal Arc today. I am joined by Anthony from TokenSets. Where are we talking about all kinds of crazy stuff? How Ethereum did during Black Thursday? Where are we talking about decentralized finance, East 2.0 and a whole wide range of stuff. So make sure you stick around for this chat. It's gonna be a great chat on Ethereum. But first and foremost, Anthony, how's

it going, man? Hey, man, how you going? Good to be on here. Love the opportunity that you've given me to come on and talk about Ethereum and DeFi, especially recently over the last week of seeing a lot of crazy stuff happening. It's been wild. It's been really wild. I mean, the markets just, wow, watching Thursday play out, sitting on my computer, just watching all these crazy

crashes happen, then seeing the aftermath of that coming out. It's been, it's been crazy. But before we dive into that and we get into the questions here, I just wanted to mention as well. For anybody who hasn't checked out TokenSets yet, it's definitely something worth your worth checking out. The way linked down below to that. So basically, well, tell us a little bit Anthony about TokenSets

and then we're going to jump into the first question on Ethereum. So just for anyone who's not aware of TokenSets yet. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I work full time as head of marketing at TokenSets. So what TokenSets is, it's basically a tokenized trading position. So if you want to go to TokenSets.com, you actually go to the ExploreSets page as well. And then you could see

these sets. So sets are basically, you know, they, they follow different strategies. So my most popular set is the ETH 20 day moving average crossover set. So this will actually trade automatically. So based on the 20 day moving average for ETH. And then if you're holding the set, which is just an ERC 20 token, you automatically get exposure to that. So it's, it's really cool. We've

also got like a social traders on there as well. And these are actually people making trades. You can actually follow different traders and follow their strategies. Whereas the, the 20 day moving average is what we call a Robo set, which just basically trades fully on Ethereum based on smart contracts. No one can change the trading logic. It's just set in stone. And it will, we'll trade

like, uh, indiscriminately, it will not stop. Like whereas with the social traders, they'll actually get to choose when they want to trade. Sometimes they'll be like, okay, my indicator is throwing a trade signal, but maybe I want to wait a little bit longer. Whereas for the Robo sets, they'll just trade automatically and nothing can stop it. Nice. Nice. Very, very cool stuff. I love the, the

idea of just being able to set it and forget it and let, let the algorithm basically handle the trade. Now, just a note as well. Anthony's joining us today to talk mostly about Ethereum. And this is not a sponsored interview. I just love having people on from people who are actually living and breathing the DeFi space. They're actually building and doing and at the forefront of

this innovation. So really great that, you know, glad that Anthony could take time out of his schedule to come and sit down and really just break down some of the stuff we've seen happening in DeFi over the last few weeks. Again, link down below to token says, but let's go ahead and get into breaking down Ethereum. So it was a crazy week last week. How do

you think overall Ethereum held up? Yeah, I think it was a pretty big deal. I mean, just the network itself saw gas prices spike pretty high, like up to 200 weigh, which I think translates to 20 or $30 or something at the time. It was pretty crazy for DeFi as well. In general, the high gas prices actually resulted in a lot of the make it down

kind of like not operating as expected to put it mildly. A lot of things happened where I guess the oracles weren't updating because of the high gas prices. So the price was pretty high. The price that maker was still showing on their dashboard was like $170 when it was like $120 or something. So that meant that there was like a huge discrepancy between what the price

should be and what was showing on maker. And that meant that people that should have been liquidated weren't actually being liquidated. The positions weren't actually being liquidated. So, and on top of all that, like, you know, the price kept falling. The Oracle updated, but then there's actually a delay on how fast Oracle can update. And then because of the high gas, gas prices, people who were

getting liquidated, you know, people who bid on the collateral inside the defaults or the CDP's as they called. There's there's there what's called keepers. So there's just a piece of software that people run, but because of the high gas prices, these keepers weren't actually able to bid on the collateral. And there was only one keeper that bid and he was able to get in and buy

all the eight for zero dollars zero die. So he basically cleaned up, I think it was over 5 million die worth of. So they were able to take out and liquidate without paying a thing. And now because of that, the maker system is under collateralized. So the die is under collateralized. So there's like a shortfall of over 5 million die that needs to be. Needs to

be made up somewhere and the mechanism to do that is to print more of the MKR governance token and sell that onto the market. Now people are worried that you know, it's over $5 million worth of MKR that needs to be bought up. Is there going to be enough interest from people. This is like an open option that happens. Is there going to be people that

bid on this MKR? And that's the thing that I think it's going to be a lot of work. But I think it's going to be a lot of work. It's been a real test for sure. Yeah, it's, I feel like in a way, it's like Ethereum basically hit a massive traffic jam. And nobody was able to get where they are going. And people ask, Hey, why

is there this traffic jam? I don't know because no one's getting the news. Cause now the oracles are working. And it's just this compiling effect of all these things kind of slowing down really and just not being able to communicate in a timely enough manner to make things happen. And now we've seen a makers instituting. And the third form collateral is US DC tokens. That's, that's

some crazy stuff. What do you think about this? That they're basically using a, you know, relatively centralized stablecoin as collateral for their decentralized stablecoin. Yeah, it's been, that's been very controversial within the community for sure. People are like, what that doesn't make any sense. But I think it's more of like a short term kind of like fix because of the fact that die has actually been

off its peg. So it's not a dollar anymore. It's actually went up to almost a dollar 10 US. So it was off its peg. So the logic is that there's like an arbitrage opportunity where you can lock US DC up to meet die and then go sell that die for US DC to take advantage of that arbitrage opportunity and make a little bit of profit. I

think the last time I checked it was either two or three percent you could make just by doing that trade. So you can imagine if you do a large trade and if the order books on the exchanges where you're doing the arbor actually, you know, deep enough for you to execute it, you could make some serious money doing it. And that's just the way to get

more die out to bring the peg back to a dollar because there's not just not enough die supply out there right now. People are scared. People aren't meeting as much. And yeah, it's just, it's crazy. Like it's, it's definitely caused that I kind of, I think, a little bit of a rift right now. People are like, especially the people who got liquidated it for, you know,

lost all their eat because there was no, it was just be like the, the keeper beat with zero dollars. You know, they lost all their eat. They're like, what the hell? Like I thought I was supposed to get some eat back. I didn't know this was going to happen. And people are like really upset about it. And there's no, I mean, that's that's $5 million of

liquidated Ethereum, $5 million of people just, you know, who put in, I mean, some of those guys maybe they can absorb that, that loss better, but a lot of people probably they just give $5,000 or $1,000 in there. And that's a big sum of money to a lot of people. Exactly. Exactly. And there's no plan to make these people haul right now. The only, the plan

to sell the MKL tokens is just to recapitalize the, the, the die that's missing. It's not to actually give the eighth or give some die back to the holders that lost. So people are like, well, you know, this system didn't work as intended, but, you know, I went through it. I, you know, I went and checked the white paper again. There's no guarantee that you'll ever

get back like any of your collateral. I think the understanding was that that you would get back some of it because there's like a 13% liquidation penalty. And then after that, like it only liquidates enough of your eath to cover the debt, right? So if you've got like, obviously you have to over collateralize. So there should always be something left. But, no one accounted for like

these blacks one when they would only be one keeper, they could actually just eat up all the collateral for nothing. So that's what's dividing the community right now is whether do we print more MKL to make these people whole because it's it's provable on chain. So there's no like bias yet. Like, okay, these are the people we need to make whole. But then it's like, well,

that's just going to dilute MKL even more. And, you know, this is, it's just it's not a very pretty place to be right now. Yeah, damn, if you do, damn, if you don't, because if you, if you meant more maker, that kind of reverses the idea of it being a deflation, right? And basically erases the last two years of maker being burned. And that's that's problematic.

And yeah, but then you have someone gaming the system and getting $5 million of Ethereum for zero. Yeah, exactly that person's very happy right now. That's for sure. But yeah, there's a lot more unhappy people, which is unfortunate. Yeah, definitely now. Obviously oracles. This is something that really came to the forefront because the gas fees and the sort of the breakdown of the oracles says to

much lead to the breakdown of all these are decentralized finance applications. So did token sets also suffer from this Oracle failure? So we actually do use makers oracles for most of our sets. And we also use chain links Oracle for our links set. So the thing with token says is that most of the sets actually were sitting in cash at about $200. Whether at a Thrive

when he dumped $200 the sets all rebalanced and back into a cash or most of most of the time. So they did anyway. And that was sitting in cash through this whole thing. So we actually got away with it like, you know, because we didn't need to rebalance because none of the sets triggered a rebalance or a trade which needed the oracles to be up to

date to do. So we actually were fine. The tokens actually I think is one of the only defi protocols that was fine through this and that actually saved a lot of people money because anyone that was in that set, right. They because it was sitting in cash, they actually. Now that we're at $117 of ETH right now, the sets are still in cash. So that actually

protected all the set holders from the downside completely. And some of the sets were up 100 plus percent against ETH in just a week. Yeah, it was insane. And a lot of the not just the Robo sets, but the social trading sets as well. We're also sitting in cash. So any of the sets that were sitting in cash were protected completely. And all the users that

had these sets were protected completely from most of the downturn. Which is really fun to see because we actually had some of our users saying, oh, you know, the sets just sold $20. That's the bottom because we had dropped so much. And then I'm like, I actually said, I'm like, I've seen this play out before where the sets will sell the bottom, but that's not actually

the bottom. And it'll dump even more. And then everyone who sold the set because they thought that, you know, that will they could trade better than the set actually lost out on that on being protected, which is just really unfortunate. But that's what we see play out a lot is that the sets will actually do these things that people think wrong. It's like, well, I mean,

if you think you can out trade the set, then don't buy the set, just going, you know, try and trade yourself. I've tried to out trade the set too. And that has not worked. Let me tell you, it's been a very painful experience learning that. So yeah, oh, no, like, tokens, this actually came out ahead, which is really awesome. That's good. Well, I mean, that definitely

makes token sets than one of the few kind of people who came out to the other side of Black Thursday without, you know, being horribly wounded, I guess, which is definitely awesome. I think I think what happened with Maker really shakes a lot of people's confidence in Indie Fikes. Obviously, Maker has been one of the premier decentralized finance protocols. One of the older decentralized finance protocols.

It's one of the ones where I mean, Die is become such an important part of the entire decentralized finance ecosystem in terms of being that that interchangeable money between all these from platforms. So, you know, it's really good to hear that not everyone got hit on Black Thursday. So, that's definitely good. Now, what I could get to your opinion on what do you think the biggest

risks are right now in decentralized finance? And obviously, we've seen this maker situation. Before that, we saw the whole thing that happened with BZX, which I mean, it feels like that was like months ago. Now that was only like two weeks ago. But so what what are the biggest risks in DeFi today, according to you? Yeah, yeah. So I guess like we touched on the R

cool stuff. I think that might be one of the biggest risks. If not the biggest, just because it's such a central point of failure for a lot of these things, as we saw play out with Maker, the BZX stuff was more of like, I guess, an exploit, not really a hack. They just someone really, you know, took really creative kind of like advantage of how it

was set up. You know, it's, I guess like that. I guess it's a big risk as well. And that these protocol developers don't account for these edge cases that people can take advantage of. So exploits in general, any smart contract hacks is obviously a huge risk. But I think we're actually pretty good there. I think at this point in time, you know, not to not to

jinx it or anything, but at this point in time, a lot of the leading DeFi protocols take security extremely seriously. They get their contracts audited, some of them are doing formal verification as well. So they're doing all the right things. They have like, you know, I mean, Maker introduced the governance delay on on the changes that can happen to the protocol, we should protect against like

bribe attacks and things like that. So I'm not too concerned about smart contract security. I'm definitely more concerned about oracles and just general exploits like we saw with busy X. And in terms of I guess oracles being able to communicate with each other quickly. I mean, I think that really comes back to talking about a ETH 2.0. And so obviously when we get ETH 2.0, we're

going to have sharding and we're going to have, you know, the Web Assembly and all these different features that are hopefully going to make Ethereum a lot more functional than it is today because we saw on Black Thursday that, you know, ETH ground to, you know, not to a halt, but slowed down massively in fee spite quite a bit, which caused this cascade of failures to

happen. So what are your thoughts on ETH 2.0 getting delivered on time? Yeah, yeah. This is a funny one that a lot of people talk about. The constant, I guess, delays with the ETH 2.0 development and things like that. And it's like a phase the approach. I guess for those who don't know, there's like three phases that are going forward with ETH 2. We've got phase

one that's going live this year, which is basically just a new blockchain core. It's a staking chain essentially. It's called the beacon chain. It's just, it's basically the central nervous system of ETH 2.0. Or you can do a stake on it. There's no smart contracts. There's nothing of that sort. You can't even send ETH around. It's just you stake, you earn ETH a resort. And then

we have phase one that comes out, which introduces the different shards. And those shards connect to the beacon chain. But still no smart contracts directly on ETH 2 at that point. The shards just act as kind of data chains. So you can have like data on there that you can actually do stuff with in other ways, but not on ETH 2 directly. And then we have

phase two, which comes later, which actually brings us up to par with what ETH 1 can do. It's smart contracts and all these sort of stuff. Then we can have kind of like defying things like that. But there's a lot of moving parts. And like we don't have enough time, I guess today to cover it all. But there's so many changes going in. There's so much

happening that I'm of the opinion that like ETH 2, if it works, will definitely fix a lot of these things. There'll be awesome scaling improvements. There'll be a lot of stuff happening. But I think ETH 1 today, as it exists today, can actually scale it on layer two very well with things like optimistic rollups that have come out now that are people are very bullish on.

And they can actually be used in conjunction with ETH 2 as well. So you could actually use the ETH 2 shards chains, just the data layer in phase one as a data layer for optimistic rollups on ETH 1. So we can actually have this interoperability between the two before having to wait for that phase two, which is isn't expected to go live quite a while. So

I think there's a lot of options which have started using rollups to this point. But I think we'll see a lot more using rollups as before. I mean, what about token sets? Is that something that would benefit you guys to be able to be using rollups? Or is that something that you don't find particularly applicable to your application? Yeah, I see. A token sets really doesn't

require too much scalability considering that we're not in exchange or anything like that. It's literally basically people just buy into a set and they hold it. Like there's no high volume stuff that goes on. So it's too concerned about scalability. I guess during things like rebalances, having high gas prices would mean that the market makers that participate in these rebalances would need to up that. And

that might affect their profitability. But in general, we don't actually need massive scalability for token sets. We can exist today as we are even with higher gas prices. It would affect end users because minting a set is not just, it's not very cheap. It's actually cost a couple of dollars when ETH prices are low because we're doing a lot of different things in the background. Because

this mark contracts that we're doing cost more than a regular transaction to mint the set for you. So yeah, just in general, we try to keep fees down as much as we can for end users. But I feel like people would still pay $10 to buy into a set if they were buying thousands of dollars worth of the set. It's not really that much. Yeah, $10

fees, not that much at the end of the day. I think that I was loopering maybe who did a comparison that basically, if we were to buy a set of $10, we would have to buy a set of $10,000. I think that I was looping maybe who did a comparison. If you were using roll ups on their exchange, that the exchange fees would have been like,

I don't know, 50 times less or something during the Black Thursday event. And so yeah, this is, I mean, particularly if we start talking about decentralized exchanges, the protocols that require to have really these quick exchanges. And that was again part of that cascade that came down was that people couldn't get the die quick enough. They couldn't get their transactions through in order to be able

to send crypto over to maker to recalateralize their loans and all this stuff. So, yeah, roll ups, definitely some cool stuff. Can't wait to see more of it getting implemented. Now, why do you think that totally change, kind of a change, totally change topic? Why do you think Bitcoin is failing at the DeFi narrative? I know that there's some Bitcoin maximalist who are like, oh, you

know, one of these days, Bitcoin's going to do the DeFi thing. But it obviously hasn't really eventuated. In fact, Bitcoin is bigger in terms of DeFi on Ethereum. So, like, wrapped Bitcoin and P Bitcoin, all these things. So, what are your thoughts on that? So, I think Bitcoin is just inherently limited in what it can do. And trying to force it to do something that it

was not designed to do is why we're not, you know, it's so limited. I guess the proper analogy would be that Bitcoin's like an automobile or a car, for example, it does one thing really well. It drives on the road, like get you to A and B on the road, but it can fly. Right? You can put a jet engine on it, put some wings on

it. I mean, maybe it'll fly, but it's not going to fly very well. It's not going to compete with like a jet, for example, like a jet jet airplane. That's what Ethereum is. Can go on the ground, just fine. It can go in the air, just fine. It can do all sorts of funky stuff. It doesn't need to be, you know, bundle, things don't need to

be bolted on like to improve its fundamentals of what it can do. Things get bolted on just to kind of like upgrade what it can do. So, you can imagine like, you know, a fighter jet getting like, you know, new weapons attached to it, right? It's just a change fundamentally what it is, but it will give it more capability. And that's exactly what happens with Ethereum,

where we have this fundamental base that can do so much more than what Bitcoin can do. And that's why we're seeing Ethereum be able to do all this stuff that Bitcoin can't do. Like it's just, that's just the way it is. I mean, like people say, I will build stuff on Lightning Network, but Lightning Network is limited by Bitcoin's limitations. Like, it's just limitations all the

way, I guess, up in this case. Like, so you can't, like, that's what I'm trying, that's what I'm seeing. It's just like they're trying to force things. I mean, Bitcoin as I guess, they're trying to like force things to happen on Bitcoin that just can't happen. They're trying to sell things. I mean, Lightning Network, if I'm being honest, has been a failure up until this point.

Like, it doesn't have product market fit. No, I want to spend their Bitcoin. You spend, when the community spends years turning Bitcoin to this thing that you just hold and wait for it to go up, which is exactly what it is. And I'm fine with that. Like, I don't think that's a bad thing at all, but you can't just suddenly say, oh, would you, would you

payments now as well? It's like, oh, no, no, no, it wants to do it. Like, nobody wants to eat pizza guy, right? Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I feel like if Bitcoin was able to be able to stable coin on top of Lightning Network in some way, that would be a much better product market fit. Then rely on people to want to spend their BTC. Yeah. And

I think that if we want to talk about implementing Bitcoin in terms of being able to use it as a tradable asset and things like this again, it works million times better to be able to do that with decentralized finance by tokenizing Bitcoin on Ethereum, locking up Bitcoin. And letting it be traded across Kyber or whatever it might be, it's much more effective that way because

much cheaper fees and wallet accessibility. I mean, this is one of the things if we look at Lightning Network, for example, there's only a couple of wallets that specifically cater to Lightning. And it's not a super user friendly experience to get Bitcoin in and out of Lightning. Once you actually have Lightning, it's pretty easy to send it from point A to point B, but it's there's

not really a lot of additional functionality beyond Yeah, I can send a Bitcoin super super cheaply through Lightning Network, but again, you have to pay on chain fees to get the Lightning on to get the Lightning. And then you have to pay on chain fees again to take the Lightning out. So unless you're going to be using that, that Lightning, let's say put in 50 bucks

with a Bitcoin Lightning Network, if you're going to be using that 100 times back and forth and all over the place. Well, then I guess it makes sense. But if you just want to do it for one or a couple payments, doesn't that make sense? You might as well just do the on chain Bitcoin payment. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think on the UX user experience

side of things on Bitcoin, I think it's suffered a lot on kind of like the decentralized user experience. So you've got the centralized user experience, which is just exchanges like Coinbase, for example, then you have the decentralized user experience. I think on Bitcoin, no one's really doing anything in that space because there's just not much to be done there. Whereas on Ethereum, we, you know, having

metamask, for example, is a decentralized kind of like self-sovereign wallet. So that's a great opportunity for you guys to to interact with these dApps. Like these dApps have kind of forced the wallet providers to to to improve the UX to onboard more people. Whereas the Bitcoin is just like the extra they rely on the exchanges to do that, right? Because the exchange is like where people

will come into Bitcoin and then most people will just keep that Bitcoin on an exchange. And there's nothing else you do with it, right? You just hold it. Like you might be able to do Lightning Network and stuff, but no one's really doing that because the reasons I explained before. So I think the user experience of Bitcoin is suffered greatly. I mean, just trying to find

a wallet, the other day I was looking and I was like, okay, well, what's the best Bitcoin wallet that I can use right now? And I'm like, okay, Coinbase wallet on my phone. Like that's awesome. You know, it's a multi currency wallet. That's great. What's the best Ethereum wallet? It's like so many Ethereum wallets, right? Yeah. It's like crazy amount. Like and and they will have

different features like, you know, Bitcoin has nothing like, I don't know if people are familiar with the Argent mobile wallet, which is like a smart contract wallet, which has built in like user protection from limits on how much you can spend built right into the smart contracts, not into the app themselves. You know, whitelist built right into the smart contracts like, you know, to FAA, like

being able to set up backups for your wallet, like self sovereign backups, not relying on centralized parties. Like using the ledger as a backup device or whatever. It's. I mean, the innovation on Ethereum is just like so much more because of the fact that you can do more with Ethereum. Like it's simple as that. The Bitcoin innovation is happening on the crypto exchanges, I think, on

the centralized places. Whereas the Ethereum innovation is happening on a global decentralized kind of permissionless. So I think that's the best way to do it. But every now. And that's one of the things gets me so excited about Ethereum. It is this just massive, innovative, just monster, just with so many things going on. It's just crazy when I look in and I, when you're talking about

the Argent wallets, think, well, but like the engine wallet as well. And you got like, you know, in game items and all these cool things that you can go from point to point B with. And there's some really, really exciting stuff. I mean, obviously decentralized finance, I think is one of the really big things that is getting people to talk about. Ethereum as this open public

network for value transfer across the internet and in a just an incredibly rich way where we see IPOs coming, we see STOs coming, we see tokenized art, we see tokenized digital assets, we have lotteries and algorithmic trading and all this stuff happening on Ethereum. So let me, let me throw this question to you. The idea of eth being money. This is a contested idea in some

fields. But do you think that Ethereum is money? I mean, of course, for sure, I'm one of the loudest proponents of that, I guess, you know, on Twitter and stuff like that. My simple reasoning for eth being money is that people are using it as money, right? Like people have been using it as a unit of account, like, for example, God's Unchained cards are bought with

eth. So and they're priced in eth. So it's like, that's a unit of account. It's a medium, medium of exchange because of that, right? People are trading eth for different goods and services. It acts as a story of value. You know, we saw ICO, who's hold eth in treasuries as like a story of value, right? That's where they're storing their money. Some of them cashed out

whatever, like some of them held still. It's still showing the properties of money. It has all the properties of money. Like for me, eth is essentially like BTC, the same as BTC just on steroids. Like, I mean, you can go into like the monetary, the monetary policies between the two, whereas Bitcoin is this cap asset. If eth doesn't have a cap on it. But like, there's

He says that Eek is the economic bandwidth for Ethereum. It does like all these different things on Ethereum that I just said, like, staking, collateral, money. And it's going to keep doing that. It's going to keep growing. And that's what drives value to Eek. Basically, it's it used to pay fees as well, right? Like gas on Ethereum is eth essentially. And you can only pay those

fees in Eek. So I think, yeah, people, people, people usually push back on Eek is money. And say, oh, it's more than that. It's like, yes, it is. I'm not saying if he's only money, or they'll say, I don't know if Eek is money because like money is supposed to be all these different things. I'm like, well, eth satisfies those things. Like, okay, it's not stable.

But that doesn't really matter. Like, I mean, I'm in Australia. The AUD isn't stable either. Like depending on what your benchmark is. Like, again, USD lately, it's falling like massively. Go look at the AUD USD chart. It's not very pretty. So what is stability, right? Like at the end of the day, I mean, you can say the USD stable, but then it, you know, it's stable.

Look at the money printing. Look at the inflation. Right. Look at the rates and all this stuff. It just because a dollar bill still says $1 or $20. That doesn't mean anything because the purchasing power of, I mean, in my lifetime, the purchasing power of $1 has dropped by nearly 50%. It's insane. But $1 still worth $1, right? It's, you know, requires a bit of thinking.

It's that slow motion, you know, train wreck versus the very quick train wreck of, you know, lot loss of value. And I think you brought up a really, really good point, actually, that I just want to go back to for a second because I think it's so important. The unit of account, the unit of account. This is one of the big things that I've talked about

a lot with Bitcoin, actually, that someday if Bitcoin can become a unit of account, then, you know, it's really made it, right? But we actually see Ethereum being used as a new account. And I'm sure there's some marketplaces where Bitcoins is as use of account as well. But that's such an important thing. You're actually seeing, you know, whether it be gods unchained or different NFTs and

things. I know that actually this piece behind me here is by Josie Bellini. And she does some amazing art. And it's the great Ethereum piece. Actually, it's the Ethereum white paper and it's very interesting stuff. But that she's actually selling her NFT. She's for Ethereum priced in Ethereum, not dollar values, but in Ethereum values. And that's super interesting to see that actually playing out as a

unit of account. Now, the final question I have here for you today, I'm going to wrap our chat up is one of your thoughts on the multi trillion dollar Ethereum market cap. Do you think that's something we're going to see? You know, Ethereum worth $1 trillion market, or $2 trillion market cap. Yeah. So I guess before I dive into my thoughts, I'll caveat by saying nothing.

I say is financial. I have to say that. Yeah. As always. I mean, I've been pretty public about my long term price target for eight. I mean, I could go higher than this. It could be lower. But I think it can attain a $10,000 price, which would give it a market cap of over a trillion dollars. I think it's $1.2 trillion that current supply or a

bit lower than that. I think that's very easily achieved, especially because, you know, I expected Ethereum to keep growing. And, you know, as Ethereum grows and as more apps get bigger, it gets used more as collateral type within DeFi. More eth gets locked up. There's more usage there. We're going to have staking going online, which is just going to lock up a bunch of eth as

well. Ease issuance rate, like yearly issuance rate is going to come down with eth too. So at the moment, it's about the same as Bitcoin, at least until Bitcoin harbs, or about I think it's 3.5 to 4% a year. Last time I checked of our extra eth coming to market, which isn't too high, right? But in eth too, we're actually going to be able to get

that below 1%. Because of the difference, this proof of state can actually be secured for a lot less than paying, you know, miners and proof of work. And then on top of that, I didn't touch on this before, but in eth too, but we're not going to earn over. But most likely going to have fee burning as well. So there's going to be even burn, which

takes it completely out of the circulation. So eth is going to actually, if we, if we, between locking up eth for DeFi, using it in staking, burning it, and a bunch of other things, like locking it up in dals and people losing eth, people getting slashed in staking, eth may well have an issuance rate that is negative, right? Effectively negative. So, you know, eth is, I'm

not concerned about that at all. And that's what makes me, you know, more bullish about eth is that it's going to be less, in my mind, less deflationary than Bitcoin for a while, because Bitcoin will have, you know, maybe it'll have 2% issuance. Whereas eth, but the other next time Bitcoin harbs to 1%, eth is going to, um, or less, it's going to already be on

proof of stake. It's going to be less than 1%, it's going to be being used a lot more. People are going to use it as a store of value for different things as collateral. It's, it's actually endless. What you can do, what you can use, eth for. And there's no other asset on Ethereum that has the same properties as eth. Like it's, there's no other assets

that's trustless like eth that that could be used to pay gas. They can be used when staking go a lot, go, goes live. So all those just culminate in, and you know, David Hoffman and Ryan Schron, who have done this a lot, all these culminate in eth being that economic bandwidth for the Ethereum network. So as long as the Ethereum network keeps growing, and DeFi keeps

growing on Ethereum, eth is going to grow with it. And that's how we're going to get to that multi trillion dollar kind of like market cap for eth. Exciting times, exciting times. I love it. Yeah. I'm with you on that. I think we've got a lot of room for Ethereum to grow. If we see what's built currently, what's being proposed and what's just starting to happen

around the edges, you can actually see this vision of where Ethereum is going. And it's very big and it's very exciting. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Nice. Anthony, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your opinions on, you know, what's going on, Ethan, of course, breaking down some of these different situations for us as well. It's a lot of great information in this chat. So thank

you so much for coming in again. Everyone. Check out token sets, link down below in the description. We can go and have a look at that and kind of see what they're doing there as well. So Anthony, thank you so much. Thanks. Thanks for having me.