Episode 178 - Nadav Zeimer

You're listening to the only place on the internet that offers the perfect blend of high-quality premium cigars and cryptocurrency news and commentary. Welcome to cigars and crypto. Now here's your host, Invest New York. Good evening ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this episode of cigars and crypto. You know who it is you should boy in the world let me tell you. I'm always happy to have interesting

people join me on cigars and crypto. Today I'm talking to Mr. Nadav Zimmer, also known as Principal Z. Nadav, how are you sir? I'm doing very well. Thanks for having me. No problem. Thanks for accepting my invitation. I appreciate it. So tell me about yourself sir. Oh so I am currently a high school principal in New York City. I work with students that were kicked out

of other schools. We call them transfer schools. And before that I was a software engineer at the during the dot com boom I worked at Netscape for digital equipment. And at the time I was starting a nonprofit around what would become podcasting. We didn't have a name podcasting yet but I saw the bar being lowered for audio production. And so then that podcasting kind of entered

my classroom. And then as a principal I transformed a high school using podcasting and video. And now here I am talking to you about taking it beyond one school or one classroom to students across the country. It's a good question. I was I like working hard. I like difficult challenges. And I was working for a really exciting startup here in New York City. And I was

coming home on the train one night at about three in the morning. And I was having this thought. And at the same you know and said you became clear to me that I would never resent working hard for young people. I love working with young people. And I was young enough at the time that I could make that kind of switch. And so I dove into

becoming a physics and robotics teacher at the high school level. Now that actually sounds like a great transition coming from such a technical background. And moving into physics and robotics and teaching other people is a good example. Great transition, a beautiful story man. You know here on cigars in crypto we talk about either cigars or crypto or sometimes both. But today we're going to talk about

crypto and blockchain. So yeah. I was reading an article about you. I was reading a post about you using blockchain to change education. Is that accurate? That is absolutely accurate. Yeah. So if you think about Bitcoin. It's a ledger of accounts. Right. And so you have the account address and how much isn't it. That's really all it is. So in and the document that incentivizes all

of education is the high school transcript. That's what everything builds toward right. So the high school transcript is a ledger of accounts. And it's the students. You know their account and the type of credit and what they got for that credit. And I had that thought when I was studying Bitcoin. And I was really into it. And I was really into decentralization open source software. And

so me and some of my software buddies were just kind of tossing around the idea of what would happen if we decentralized the high school transcript. If we took the power away from politicians in the same way that Bitcoin does. And gave it to a community of educators so that the political cycle every four years and the adult interests don't interfere with the laser focus on

what's good for the kids and on student outcomes. And that idea slowly, you know over the past 10 years evolved. And merged with the work I was doing in the school, which was already media focused and ended up at NFTs. NFTs are really media combined with capital. And so students producing media students producing podcasts or videos. That's digital literacy. What used to be you know reading

writing math. Now it's audio video. And and they're still the scientific inquiry and mathematics skills. But if we start focusing just on the quality of student output. And then we get on a blockchain so that the high school transcript becomes like a wallet of these non transferable NFTs because you can't give the credit to your buddy to help him graduate. So it's a dumb down version

of NFT. A non transferable NFT that you can't sell in a marketplace. But that represents your work in high school. And if these NFTs are known for being gold standard. Everybody knows that these are really hard to get this is really high quality. And anybody can check any one of these right you can go to the transcript and scan a QR code if it's printed on

to college that I really kind of immersed myself in that type of learning. And grad school for me was all project based learning. So for my listeners who don't know what that is. Give me a description of what project based learning is and how it differs from classroom learning today. Yeah. So if we start from classroom learning today. Will this be on the test. That's the

question that we think is what students are always asking you. If you're a teacher, it's actually what the teachers and administrators are also asking will this be on the test. And if it's not on the test, we don't cover it. And so we really are focusing on teaching kids how to prepare for these standardized tests. And if you think about it, standardized test represents standardized thinking

that's exactly the type of thinking that artificial intelligence is already taking over. So we're evaluating how well students can do the type of robotic thinking that is no longer relevant in our workplace. Now project based learning is student centered learning. It's learning that focuses on building skills rather than just learning content, building skills. And on focusing on the students interests and the students questions so that

homework students are doing is answering questions that they came up with in the classroom. And so they're delving into their interests and they're using academic habits and academic skills, which is what they're being evaluated on research, writing, fact checking, right. And it helps students. So it's it's really important, not just because it's. It kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of. But it's also

important to understand that the students love of learning, which we're all born with in our schools right now start to squat, you know, squash right when they get into school. It kind of that fire that love of learning. But it's also relevant to the digital economy, which is focused on monetizing our attention. It helps us distinguish good signal from bad. And that's really important for citizens

these days from being voters to be, you know, to making purchase decisions not being influenced by ads to using their social media and realizing how the screen is sucking their attention. And ultimately, if I was going to say it in one sentence, I would say the differences from being consumers of content to being producers of content, project based learning has students be creators of content rather

than just consumers of content. Now that's deep. You know, I. I say quite frequently to my children that you need to stop watching videos on YouTube and TikTok. And if you're really interested in it, start making them. And my son has. He's a big. Call a duty fan. And he has started recording himself playing this video game. And while I initially encouraged him to do this,

I was like, what is this boy doing? But now he has, you know, little followers and people who interact with him, you know, and he is talking to me about monetizing content. He came to me and he said that, how do you monetize content? And I'm looking at him like, what? Like, where did that come from? But I see what you mean about the difference between

consumers and producers and how important that is in learning development. Most people are consumers. Some people are producers. And it is the producers who get us things like SpaceX, blue origin, Tesla, Tesla coils, like Nicola Tesla, things like that. People who produce things, hopefully for the get a humanity. So shout out to you for that line of thinking. And wanting to use blockchain to facilitate that

change. Now, in the school way, you know, I'm going to be able to do that. So you are right now, principle Z. Do your students use this project based type of learning? So I just took some time off these past years to write a book. The school that I was at my entire career as a principle, we, we did, we had a recording studio on a

video. I think we did a ton of video at an audio that's kind of the entire model of schools based on this. And that's where I developed and checked that these ideas work. Right now I'm in an administrative role for the department. Until they find me a place to land. So I'm kind of in transition. But for from 2010 until 2017, that's what I was doing

in a school with young people. So what, what would be your ultimate goal for blockchain and education? So we haven't, so right now we have, I wrote a book and then the book turned into a company. And we now have 20 years. We have 20 employees, 20 people that are working together. We're actually all volunteers. We all have day jobs. What we're doing this in a

decentralized way. Some remarkable people. And the ultimate goal for us is to end standardized test. Standardized testing is doing such harm to our young people. And it's, it's kind of the source. It's that, and we, I'm a data guy. I'm a physics guy. I'm a data guy. And I was known as the data principle. And I was a principle, all the other principles kind of looked

up to me. And I gave presentations about how I was doing. We've presentations about how to use data effectively. So I'm not saying we don't, we shouldn't have educational data. I'm just saying we need high quality educational data. That's evaluating how well our students are going to do in the real world, not in the past industrial world and the digital world. So ultimately what we'd like

to do is instead of a student sitting down for an AP exam. They produce one 10 minute video or audio segment per month for the course of an AP course. And at the end, that portfolio of videos would earn them the AP credit. So we're looking to disrupt starting with things like advanced placement, the high end because we're looking for gold standard credits. And so the

app is high school dot credit is the app that we're building. It's going to take us some time to build it out. We're going to beta in January. I expect by 2023 will have the app live. And then young people can go on the app, upload onto this platform. They work gets evaluated by committee of three objective outside credit experts that they don't know. And, and

then the university is would recognize these as gold standard credits that are really hard to earn. Now that's important that they upload to an app and it's evaluated separately. One, because when a teacher is evaluating their own students and then how the countable for that there's a conflict ventures there. And the students can sweet talk their way or you know puppy eyes their way into a

good grade. But if you don't go to a good high school where the name of the high school is known your transcript is meaningless because so many high schools you can graduate from without knowing how to read or write. So what that means is you have to go to the right elementary school to get into the right high school, which means you have to go to

the right, you know, pre K, you know, to get into the right elementary school. And so most kids don't have access to a bright future. They can't pivot at 16 and let's say something. Life crisis happened, which is most of the students I work with. And then they struggle in school, but then they turn it around at 16 our current system doesn't allow them to really

make it because they don't have access to gold standard credits with our platform any student, even if they dropped out. Many student anywhere can upload to this platform. And if they demonstrate the academic skills, we're not talking about the most popular videos. We're not talking about, you know, we're talking about the academic skills, demonstrating these videos. They can earn these gold standard credits and then be

on an equal playing field with any other students applying for university. There's one other piece that I think is important to talk about in this and that's race and equity issue. New York City schools where I work are the among the most segregated schools in the country. And the adults have been working for years to try to desegregate and we don't manage to do it. What

I know is that if I can incentivize young people to share resources, they will meet students from other zip codes, which is important learning and a digital age to meet people that don't think like you, if you only meet people that think like you don't learn much. So you I'm forcing them to meet other kids, but then if they can get together and make a block

of these credits that's as diverse as our cities a whole, they will get a basic income every month. We've had about a thousand bucks in their wall at of cryptocurrency for 25 years. So what I'm saying, the young people is if you can figure out, how to solve the inequities between our schools. By sharing with individual students across zip codes and our city, you will be

incentivized with cryptocurrency to do that. And I think that's so important because in a digital age not having diversity. A thought not having our students exposed to people that think it differently than them is equivalent to not educating them. It's like not having calculus now calculus is hard so is working with people are different than you. You really have to learn how to cross those barriers

and the young people know how to do it and they will do it. Wow. I can hear the passion and your voice when you were discussing that. Yeah, you know, so the population I've worked with my entire career for the since 2003. So, you know, 18 years now are these young brilliant geniuses who are system disenfranchised. You know, they just don't give them any shot at

making it and they're so brilliant. It breaks my heart to see what they have to compete again. And at the same time, I see the world changing, you know, from this jobs loop that we just have where you have more jobs to make more money to buy more stuff to make more jobs. Now we have this work loop, you know, having a job doesn't matter anymore.

You need to do work. You need to get something done of value. And that work cycle that work loop is driven by the opioid dopamine cycle that is in our brains. That's how a baby learns how to walk right they try to stand up. They get some feedback. They get really exciting. They literally get high when they can start a step or they can stand up

for a step. And that really makes me feel like I should have enough motivation to do my jobs and give it ready to be practical.iche to the Waldorf School created by somebody named Rudolph Steiner. That was 150 years ago. So we know how to do good education. We just have been withholding it from kids in our inner cities. And it's just now it's just unconsumable to

do that because our country is suffering for that. We're going to end up having our lunch eaten by other countries like Finland who know how to do this and know how to produce content while we're become the consumers. And I just don't want that for us. Exactly. My thoughts exactly my friend. We discussed your background. We discussed the benefits of blockchain for education. We briefly discussed

your app and its purpose. Your love of education and your desire to change the way children are educated today. So that leads me to the book because you mentioned that briefly. Tell me, give me the title of the book. Tell me where people can find it. So the book is education in the digital age, how we get there. You can find it on Amazon. I think

Barnes and Noble carries it. And it's it's a real in depth analysis of all these things that have been talking about I go over what inversion looks like in the business sector kind of the trends that have been happening in business that are now going to start showing off an education and I make a case that that unbundling and the inverse. And I think that's a

really good version where the student becomes the creator of content where it used to be the teacher or the textbook author. And I and I start showing how that works. And then I finish the book off with a kind of a projection. My imagination of what that might look like, which is what then had people read the book and start this platform at this app that

we're creating. So folks, I want you to go out. Get the book. Get a physical copy of the book. Maybe it's just me, but I love books. I agree. I love to touch pages. I love to hear the sound when I'm flipping a page. Get the book. Okay. Barnes and Noble Amazon. Give us a title one more time. Education and the digital age, how we get

there. My man. So it's also there's also an audiobook. If you're I also like to read books while I do dishes and stuff. So an on audible as well. There's an audiobook right or I'll read the book to you if you're that type of reader. I'm standing out standing. So in a dog. I want to take a moment. Oh, we know what before I do that.

Tell me about your Bitcoin background. You said you were studying Bitcoin. Tell me about that. Yeah. So I had some time off. And I had always been interested in decentralized and open source projects. And I'd heard about Bitcoin back in 2010. And I was sure it wouldn't go anywhere. I had seen Digi Cash and things before that. And I was like, ah, here's another interesting. And

then Bitcoin just kept gaining traction. Right. And so in 2017, I invested and made some money. And so it started. I started realizing this this might be something real. And it got me to dive back in with, you know, to the software engineering that I had, you know, not done since 2003. And just look into what was going on in the open source and decentralizes are

two separate things, but in both areas. And as an educator, I couldn't help but think through the lens. And so that it was actually studying Bitcoin that led to these ideas. Not I didn't think I would end up back at education when I dove into Bitcoin. You know, I didn't think that the two were connected at all. It was by chance from my lens. I was

kind of being at the right place at the right time. You know, being an educator and having that experience. And then having the knowledge of software and being able to read the technical stuff that that the two just in my head kind of saw each other and said, Hey, you look kind of similar. Yeah, you know, they some people say, because Bitcoin solves everything. It does

solve a lot of things. I will say that, my friend. I will say it's funny because I ended up at NFTs. I'm not I hate NFTs as an investor. I'm the worst investor in the world. Anything that I thought was not going to make it. I didn't think cell phone. You know, I was like, who's going to watch movies on their cell phones. That's ridiculous. And

if you know, of course, I've been wrong about everything. So similarly with NFTs when I heard about them. But then as this idea, I developed we realized that that's what we're doing is combining media, taking students, productions, and putting creating a form of capital, academic capital, out of them. Yeah. So it's a funny thing that my, my studying of Bitcoin and crypto, despite myself, I am

finding what, you know, some of the trends I ended up at NFTs despite myself, I think. Yeah, I think NFTs are a big craze right now. And I think, I'm not going to be a big craze. I think that current use case will not be their final use case. I'm a firm believer that at some point, NFTs will kind of transition away from this, the art

aspect and move towards records like deeds like, pathonitary records, things like that. And I think the, I mean, I'm going to. NFTs space has a bright future. Some people agree, some people disagree with me. And that's fine. But I think NFTs have a very bright bright future. Shout out to Nifty Labs for the work that they're doing. Tie. You know, you guys are over there killing

it right now, bro. Yeah. Really killing it. James, you guys are killing it, bro. And I think I tend to agree with you at a logical level. But I think, you know, music artists and now, you know, we have sports figures. You know, if you think of social media and how influencers happen, right, you create content. And that leads to capital because you get followers, you

get likes. And that gives you capital, you can actually monetize, you can get ads, right. You can become a influencer. And so if social media generates social capital. What we're doing is academic media creating academic capital. And just because my study in this, I actually think that the recording artists and visual artists, and designers, you know, I really think there might be something in NFTs in

that area for a long time. I don't, I'm not sure it's a flash in the pan. I think it actually might, that the thought that you can take media, take our expression, our human expression, which is one of those things that our official intelligence can't compete with us in. So our creative output and make it into a form of capital, which is what NFTs do. I

think that's a really powerful model. And I know that I can't predict where it's going. My assertion is that education is going to be the killer app on NFTs that student output is actually going to be because if this works. And we have a data set that is based on project based learning. It's going to be as important as GDP to be able to tell us

which communities, which areas are going to do best in the digital economy because it's all about our attention and our ability to do work. And so if we can, we can start measuring that in a reasonable way using project based learning as a proxy and these N T NFTs as a measure. You know, I think that the economists will start realizing that it's a leading indicator

of success in a digital economy. So all I know is that there's no chance for media to be able to know what's coming. But that combination of converting media into capital on a platform and in social media as the platform, you know, Twitter is the platform or Facebook, whatever. Transcript app is the platform and education, but that model of converting media into capital is just a

really powerful model that is just being born now. And I just can't imagine where it's going to go, but I know it's going somewhere big. I tend to agree with you, my friend. I tend to agree with you on that. And I tell folks where we can find you online. So N Zemmer is my handle on all the platform. Z E I M E R. But

if you go to highschool.creditorHS.credit, you can get updates on the app we're building. And on medium is really where I do most of my writing. So last name is Z E I M E R on medium. And you can find that's that's really where you can get the best of my content. No, I want to take a moment to thank you so much for joining me

today. Thank you for your patience through our technical difficulties. The last time we tried to talk and I look forward to having you back on anytime you're ready, but more specifically to discuss the app when you guys drop it. Awesome. And thank you so much. You are, you know, you podcasters are really think are the educators of today. And thank you for being there because before

you as the advertisers that we're educating our kids more than our schools were. And so thank you for doing what you do and for, you know, for connecting with your audience and educating. And all of us I'm one I count myself among your audience members. Thank you so much, my friend. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Nadav Zimmer. Thank you, sir. Have an amazing day. You

did the same. Thank you.