Untitled episode

It is very easy to get a bad reputation. It's very difficult to win a good reputation. And it's hard but not impossible to turn a bad reputation into a good one. But if reputation is what other people think about you, then what does it even matter? More importantly, when do you ever have control over other people's thoughts and feelings? I read in Businessweek about crypto, which

has had a terrible reputation for scams, the journalist Zeke Faux, who has a reputation for very funny writing, also a very serious reporting, looked into the coin Tether. And what he found was a crypto-powered human trafficking ring in Cambodia. Sometimes, reality turns out to be much worse than reputation, and sometimes, reputation turns out to be a lot worse than reality. How are you supposed to sort

out which is which? We're gonna try to do it together tonight. It's The Businessweek Show Welcome to The Businessweek Show. Tonight, reputation. In the NBA, everybody has a reputation. The stars, the rookies, the fans, the coaches, the refs, even the lowly reporters. But few figures have a more complicated reputation than sports agents, and few sports agents have a more interesting reputation than the man who is

at the table with me right now. You may know that Rich Paul is one of the most influential figures in the business. You may know he works with his friend, LeBron James. You might even know his partner is Adele, but you do not know his full story. In a gripping new memoir called "Lucky Me," he talks about growing up with a loving mom who was addicted

to drugs. He writes about selling them, and he writes about getting on the road to becoming someone else. We are really glad he's here. Mr. Paul, welcome. Thank you, thank you. The part of your reputation that I'm personally and professionally most drawn to has to do with your role in the NBA movement that's called player empowerment. So I think broadly speaking, it's a shift in influence

away from owners who are mostly white, I think by far, to players, stars who are mostly black. At this moment, what don't fans understand about who wields the power in the business of basketball? When you talk about player empowerment, I like to use a different e-word, 'cause sometimes when you say empower, it gives off this perception that the players can do whatever they want. And that's

not true. It's still a business. And I like to talk about the education of it, because I think players being educated allows them to understand that they have options. What those options are, well, that's to be negotiated, but also, it's to be understood. And a lot of guys don't really have a perspective of the business. It's been something they've been doing all their life, and you

can be taken advantage of just playing the game. I wanna ask you about LeBron because- Sure. He's performed at such a legendary level for so long under such close examination. He's a goat. What have you, like what have you learned from him about how to be? As he became more and more successful, the person in him became better. But also, just like everything I've done has

been earned. Nobody gave me anything per se. I sacrificed to put myself in a better position, because I didn't wanna be dependent of LeBron. And so when I see people say, "Oh yeah, lucky you. You met somebody in the airport and it happened to be LeBron. And if it wasn't for LeBron, you wouldn't do this or that." I would've been successful at anything. What would you

wanna be? The commissioner of the NBA. I believe it. I manifest that, yeah. You could be. Yeah. Your ecosystems, it's much bigger than LeBron. I mean, you have had these really, really important clients, but it's hard not to think about him just 'cause he's starting, I think, his 21st season. Season, yes. And like I think like he's like a sixth person to do that. Yes. It's

very, very unusual. So I'm wondering what you want your life in the NBA and also outside the NBA to look like in a post-LeBron world one day when he's ready. It's gonna look the same. That's why I built it. Today in meetings, you know it's there, but we don't go in pitching LeBron. We go in pitching Clutch. And here's the thing. People say, "Oh, well, LeBron

gave you an opportunity. Lucky you, you did this." But you don't talk about, I think Donald Trump's dad gave him a loan, right? James Dolan dad gave him a business. Somebody gave Mark Zuckerberg a loan. What's the difference? Because it wasn't my dad? You get what I'm saying? Yeah. Everybody has to have an opportunity from somewhere, especially me coming from a place where if you had

any entrepreneurial aspirations, who's gonna look at you, who's gonna help you do a business plan? Right, here's an equity investment. Right, and then who has the experience and the knowhow and the resources and the relationships to help you even navigate to a place to where you're doing it properly? My favorite character in this book is your father. He lived with another family, but he helped raise

you. And my brother and sister, yeah. You mentioned his business, R&J Confectionary. Yeah. You write, "Dad was the type of guy that everybody wanted to know, five foot seven inches tall, with a six foot five reputation." Yes. "He got to work every day I think 6:00 AM." 6:00 AM, yeah. What did he teach you about how the business world works? Oh man, I mean, he just

taught me the importance of consistency, getting up every day, rain, sleet, hail, snow. There was no holidays. I watched how he treated people. I watched how he would him about his day. I watched the things, the detail of it, and he can see things in people that they probably couldn't see in themselves. And he took the time out to have a conversation with you. I watch

how he treated other business owners around him. So I'm learning this business every day. And so it got to the point to where my dad could just sit in the chair, and me, my brother, or my sisters could actually run the store. Your dad is my favorite character in the book, but I would like to talk for a second about your mom, because your depiction of

your mom in the book is like, it's not cliche though. No. It's not corny. You described your mom as like not a bad person, just a person who is addicted to drugs for a long time. But then your dad dies. And after watching the impact of addiction on your mom, you make a decision whose context is like, people should read the book to understand what's happening

in your life at the time. But you make a decision to sell. You don't do it for that long. It's like a part of the- Dipping my toe in the water, yeah. Well, you talk about like, I was impressed that you spoke about watching addiction and making a choice to deal drugs. I found it like, among other things, just like very honest. Were you worried that

an issue no different than the issues right now with fentanyl in our communities. But I can honestly say going through those things, watching my mom, watching other people's moms, watching other people's dad, I was lucky enough to have my dad. And I was also lucky enough for my dad to explain to us at a very young age what was actually happening. And so I never lost

a respect for my mom. And my mom had so much respect for us that today, I understand why she was absent, because she never wanted us to have a visual of that. And so the book, it was important for it to be real. I don't fake anything. There's no gray, there's black and there's white. And again, I'm blessed to be in the position I am today,

but I'm also thankful for what I went through as a kid because it was my assembly line. It really was. And it molded me. It makes me think before we end that reputation, like if it lives long enough- Yeah, changes. It turns into something else, yes. And then it becomes like your legacy. Becomes legacy. Reputation becomes legacy. What do you want yours to be? I think

my reputation is pretty solid across America. When I walk around in any neighborhood, people know that that guy is a standup guy. My dad wouldn't wanna no other way. But the difference is today, I just wanna be a great example. I wanna continue being a great example and not just making it about me, not just look what I did type of thing. But I wanna build

things, continue to be a builder. Today when I go to work, I have 80 employees, 75 employees, right? And they're young between the ages of 21 and 55 probably. But continue that opening different verticals of the ecosystem of sport and building things to where I can provide opportunity, if that makes sense. You know what comes into my head is my final question when you talk about

that? Building something, ownership. May I ask, do you- I have no interest in owning a team. I don't. I know my competitors are trying to push that narrative out there. Oh, is that right? Yeah. That they're trying to say- Yeah, they tell family's that all the time. "Oh, don't go with him. When LeBron retires, he's gonna go and own a team." But first, I don't have

enough money to own a team, first of all, so let's just get that out the way. And then secondly, I think owning a team would hinder me. I'm a creative at heart, so I have to have a lot of different irons in the fire, 'cause one thing people don't realize, those owners, they built something, so they don't own a team all day every day. They go

to work, they run Aries, they run Blackstone, they run so many different businesses that they have, Carnival Cruise, all these different things that the owners have. They don't just own a team all day. So you think I'm gonna go sit on my couch and own a team? No, I don't wanna do that. I could definitely imagine you like starting, you mentioned Aries like a private equity

fund. Would that appeal to you? Yeah, it would, yeah. And I just might. What would you call it? I got the name, but I can't give it to you. We better end there. I'll give it to you off the air. I'll hold you to it. I got it. What a pleasure. What a pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining. It was

great, man, thank you. I enjoyed it very much. Appreciate you. Alright, you take care. Coming up next, more reputation. This guest has a reputation for being able to do a lot of things better than many people, me included. She is a visionary about collective activism. She is funny, she speaks truth to power, she gets results, she's clear about the ways that she's limitless, and she's clear

about the ways that she is limited. For example, she needs some help doing things that sometimes many people take for granted, like breathing or walking or talking. And Alice Wong, the author of "Year of the Tiger," is also one of the most influential disability advocates in this country. It is a joy, as in like an actual joy, for me to have her here. Alice, welcome. Hi,

Max. Thanks so much for having me. It's a delight to be here talking with you. I honestly, honestly took delight for me to have you here. Let's get into the questions. So much of the reputation that disabled people have is built by non-disabled people, and it's built around ideas of misfortune, sadness, embarrassment, burden. What have you learned about the ways that reputations, even ones that are

old and stale, what have you learned about the ways that like reputations can actually sometimes begin to change? On reputation and reputation-building specifically, so much of it is dependent on culture. Part of why I am a writer and activist is to help push the culture forward, but ableism is such an ingrained part of our society that change happens at a glacial pace, and it takes a

collective effort, not just me or a handful of disabled people, until non-disabled people reflect and confront their implicit bias about disability and do the work on unlearning their ableism. Will disabled people be able to truly play a larger role in constructing their reputation? There will always be people in power who want to maintain the status quo and the ability to distort and erase disabled people's sense

of self and their reputations because it serves them. I myself try not to care too much about what people think of me and continue to do work that gives me joy. And if that helps others see that there's more to life than a good reputation, that can be a positive step in the right direction. Speaking of the work that you do that brings you joy, your

work, your body of work, Alice, is so wide and it's so deep. You're the founder of the Disability Visibility Project. You're co-partner on the political group that's called Crip The Vote. You served on the National Council of Disability. You've edited anthologies of work by disabled writers, and you've done much more. What's the reputation though, that Alice, that you want to have? If I wrote my own

reputation, it would be that I am someone who shows up, is thoughtful, accountable, and collaborative. That I am someone who welcomes critique and change, and that I want to learn and grow from my mistakes and do cool things with cool people. That's a mouthful, but that's how I would like people to perceive me, whether they are acquainted with me or not. Alice, a lot of companies

in this country and around the world, but not all of them, have a reputation for paying lip service to inclusion and diversity. But I'm thinking about workers who are disabled, but also Black or queer or trans or Asian or indigenous, beyond. But the reputation is that they don't actually then do the real work of reshaping their own cultures after talking about it. What are a few

examples, if you can name some, of companies and their leaders who like really are in your mind, like really actually doing it right? I think most companies say they want to do the right thing and fail from the top all the way down. It's not enough to have a disability-specific employ a resource group at a committee, an annual speaker, or a consultant or certain networks. There

has to be a long-term commitment that is strategic, systemic, and sustainable. I have felt so incredibly tempted to tell you about my brother, Tommy, who has, just like real magic and humor and love as a person, it's really shaped who I am as a person. I'm sure it's shaped me as a journalist and shaped my sister Anna and our parents as well. But I'm gonna resist,

because I feel like so much of the conversation around disabled people is often like very personal and fuzzy and kind of sweet and very, very rarely like about political things or very rarely systemic. Why is that, Alice? People are still averse to complex conversations about ableism because it makes them uncomfortable. We all have internalized or implicit ableism, and it is up to all of us to

actually name it and unlearn things that have been designed to marginalize and dehumanized disabled people. For example, people may see me as a somewhat successful published author and editor, but if they took a closer look at my activism in writing, they will see that I openly talk about how, because of Medicaid income and asset limits, I am unable to have more than $2,000 in my personal

bank account. This has been the case since I turned 18, and I bet most of your audience cannot fathom what it's like to subsist on that amount. Later on, I do want to hear about your brother Tommy, because I am sure you have some hilarious stories. I am fortunate to have a tight knit family and much of the reason it is so tight knit is because

they have all supported me throughout my life and what we experience as a family in the face of such an absurd and accessible and discriminatory society is something that we just have to laugh if not cry about. I want to share with our audience that I accommodated your needs by sharing questions for this interview with you a few days ago. And that's so that you could

use your text-to-voice technology to answer them. And it reminds me that your muscles have weakened with time. You haven't always used this technology. And people, I mean, by the way, including me, I'm about to turn 40. People have very, very strange and complicated feelings about change and about their bodies changing and weakening. What have you learned about how you wanna face those changes in ways that

feel right to you? Congratulations on hitting 40 soon. Can you believe this, but I'm turning 50 next year? Change is freaky and scary, but it's unstoppable and out of our control, no matter how hard we try. Doctors told my parents that I wouldn't live to adulthood, so I grew up without an image of myself in the future. I couldn't see it, and while I have progressively

become weaker and face changes in my body and life circumstances, it is a freaking privilege and achievement to be this age and not just surviving but thriving. A few months ago, I moved into my own place for the first time. I finally have a home office, rather than working from a small desk in my bedroom for decades. I adopted two cat's name Bert and Ernie, who

are my chosen family. I know people pity me and cannot imagine living like me, but what I have achieved and lost made me who I am, and I don't take anything for granted. Every moment with friends and family is a treasure, and I find joy amidst all the struggles and pain. Alice, in the grand scheme of things, I really don't think it makes much sense to

ask disabled people to help non-disabled people to just like be better. And yet I'm also wondering like if you were just completely like the queen of the world, what would you demand from your subjects? Talking specifically about disabled people in the United States, there is still a bias in Medicaid funding for institutional settings, where community-based services are optional for states, while institutional settings are not. Many

people think skilled nursing facilities, assisted living facilities, and nursing homes are safer because a person can get 24-hour care, but no one should be separated from society and hidden from the public. And by the way, institutions are not necessarily safe. In fact, they're rife with abuse and neglect, especially ones that are for-profit owned by private equity companies. I would like to see a world where no

one goes hungry and has housing, education, and healthcare, A world where bodily autonomy is respected, a world where communities and neighborhoods take care of one another. A world where disabled people aren't siloed by diagnosis. A world where we can rest, dream, and create. Those are a few things I hope to see in the future. I want you to know, Alice, how grateful I am, how grateful

I am that you've joined us here. I'm hoping our paths will cross again one day. I'm grateful for your time, grateful for your energy, and grateful for you. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks a bunch for this opportunity, Max. The pleasure is mine. Almost everyone has a reputation. Almost everyone has an inner life, and very few people see themselves the way their

bosses or the markets see them. When you sit down and talk to other people, as I did tonight about who they are and what they've been through and how they see the world, the chances are good You're gonna hear something new and interesting and that's a good thing, 'cause it's nice to actually be surprised. When you wanna figure out which reputations are better or worse than

reality, it helps to start by asking questions. Our guests tonight were honest about themselves and their reputations, and maybe that will encourage you to ask other people about theirs. Or you can start by telling other people about you. Thank you so much for watching. We will see you next time. I think the most important lesson you've learned in business is it's never personal. It's always business.

My current vice is watching a ton of TV. When I was able to eat, I loved eating salty and fattening food. Things like french fries, tempura, donuts, and pastries. What's the most expensive thing I've wasted the most money on? I would probably say a car because it's a depreciating asset. What kind of car was it? All of them.