ELI5 - Explain it to me like Im Five - #SBF #FTX -

Morning, Bitcoin's today is Tuesday, November 15th, 2022. We are live on Zoom and Twitter spaces on YouTube, on Facebook, on the World Crypto Network, and we're looking for you, caller to tell us like we were five years old, explain us, what did SBF do and how did he think he was gonna get away with it? We've got Frank in the audience right now. Let's see if

we can get Frank on stage. You would be caller number one. We've also got Satchya. You can join us on Twitter spaces at Madbitcoins. You could also share the link to this show. We want to know what did SBF do and how did he think he's gonna get away with it? It's amazing. Let's see if we can add more people to this space. Let's see. Let's

see. Coho speakers. We are on Twitter spaces. We've given us sound boards. It's amazing. What amazing new technology, voice transformation sound boards. We've got a binary user, binary join us on stage. Tell us what did SBF do and how did he think he was gonna get away with it? People want to know. Let's see. Coho speakers. Invite cohosts, invite speakers. Interesting. Trying to get some cohosts

here, seeing why. SBF did what he did. It's the strangest thing. Or if I can change accounts, let's see. Got Morgan. Let's see if Morgan can tell us why. We're looking for guests here on Twitter spaces. So people can explain it to me like I'm 5. What did SBF do and how did he think he was gonna get away with it? Bonus. Explain why his gang

hasn't been arrested yet and predict when they will. That's right. You could be the next speaker on the show. Go ahead and say hello. We're looking for caller number one. Philoneas. Are you with us? Hey, welcome to the show. Your caller number one. What is your answer? What did SBF do and how did he think he was gonna get away with it? I don't know. Ask

Morgan. He wants to come up. Come on. You can give us more than that. What did SBF do? Just tell us like a five year old. Give us your best best answer. He traded with user funds and fucking law, which is honestly amazing. Seeing how he could see all the data coming up. Coming in and out. It's truly unbelievable, especially considering his background, Stanford, law, parents,

all those connections, Gensler, all these benefits, and yet still big loser. Some of the smartest people in the world have no common fucking sense. It's pretty amazing. I don't know how he thought like it was so big. Billions and billions of dollars. And they say in all the comments now, they're saying these kind of guy that just went bigger and bigger. They say, you know, what

I mean to you? They said, well, can you get more leverage? Can I get more money? Can I get a bigger system, bigger ads? And then it all explodes. Yeah, exactly. Didn't think he was going to lose it all came fucking crashing down. Excellent response. Let's see if we can get Morgan up here to give us Morgan's answer of what SPF did. Why he thought he

was going to get away with it. What's up Thomas? Hey Morgan, good to hear from you. Again, glad to hear you doing well. I think that you should never become a billionaire in less than like five years because if you become a billionaire way too fat, like winning the lottery, you have greedy lawyers and stupid people around you. And it takes a village to be that

stupid. So I don't think I was probably pretty pretty negligent playing video games during a crisis, but also he apparently has a lot of stupid people around him telling stupid things. So I would just, I would say, like 90% of the responsibility is probably on anyone doing something stupid. 10% is the amount of stupid people you spend time with every day. Well, it was it was

his girlfriend's company. And they needed the money. You know, what would you do if she came to you with those amazing glasses and that cackling laugh? Well, you know, like that's that's a part of my answer. There is like the team who you choose to be around, you know, and that's kind of kind of a weird thing to like be hiding on an island like nonstop,

you know, and if, you know, you put your money in a trust and a corporation on an island. It was a pretty strange choice. Let's see if we can get Fran or Jimmy up here on the stage. Anyone is welcome here. We're looking for your best answer. There's no wrong answer. We're just curious to find out why SPF thought he could get away with it. And

just you know, I'm going to get a little bit of a question. You know, a nice general explanation of what he did. See, Kimberly, anyone could join us now in Twitter spaces at mad bitcoins. Well, Morgan, what do you think's going to happen to him next? Do you think that SPF will be caught? Or is this an unfortunate situation? Obviously he's tweeting crazy stuff. I think

that I've seen this said a few times on Twitter today that we have the tornado cash developer in jail and Ross Olbrick in jail. But everyone who was a CEO of an exchange that disappeared with billions of dollars all the way back to magical tucks. No one is in jail who runs an exchange. It's only the guys doing the hard scientific work, you know, just kind

of sad. So I don't expect anyone in a world of money. Exactly the position to go to jail. So is the guy's the right code, you know. You've been around a while. You certainly maybe Cripsy, a big pro, maybe his programmer. Yeah. Well, big burns, Ron and jail too. You know, that's what I'm saying. Big, big burn allegedly in China, allegedly made a copy of Cripsy

ran off with everybody's alt coin back in the day. And completely not in jail, never talked about even Dr. Roya from one coin. Of course, that might have ended badly for her. You never know. Maybe there's a reason these people don't talk. But you're certainly right. No one that has run a Bitcoin exchange has ended up in jail. But let's put it yet on that. Maybe

there's still hope. Well, I, I want to like be clear. You know, like my, my view is maybe the programmers get picked on. But Mark Herpowicz, a Malgok's actually was writing very shitty code for Malgok's after he took it over. So maybe he, because he was an executive, he didn't go to jail. But if he was just a programmer, he probably would have went to jail.

So I think every programmer out there making very scary things that the government doesn't like should also become a CEO, it will protect you. It didn't protect me, but you got to be a better CEO. It is interesting to see Brian Armstrong's doing good. Jesse Powell from Kraken's doing good. And then we got this guy coming along. Is that better? Not now. Well, you kind of

have to think about what his motives were. You know, he started in this space, what a couple of years ago. And he started out doing arbitrating. He's not a Bitcoiner. He's not one of us. He doesn't have the history that we have and understand what we know about the market. He looked at an opportunity. So this is a way I can make a lot of money.

And I think he let it go to his head. You know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I I

heard an interview with him a year ago, talking about his, his right future plans for altruism, ways he could solve every problem in the world. You know, he thought about how he could take all the money that he was making and fix every problem in the world. But what he didn't fix was the money. He didn't fix the actual problem that we're all trying to solve

here as Bitcoiners. And so when he built this exchange, he created something that turned into a monster. I don't know how people took them seriously, but he was currently very convincing. So all I can say is, you know, do your due diligence when you're putting your money in anywhere. If you have any assets that are on a custodial exchange, you want to really know who's behind

that and what their motives are. And if you don't, you can't understand what they're doing and where the yield is coming from. It's probably coming from you. It does seem like we have a broken system when a company is happening like this can advertise during the Super Bowl, sponsor the Miami Heat Arena so much more. Didn't they all just close their eyes and let it happen?

Yeah, you know, it's really funny. I went back and I watched the, the ad that they ran during the Super Bowl with Larry David. If you haven't seen it, go take a look at it. It was, uh, don't feel like Larry. And it was basically Larry David as a different historical figures over time, uh, rejecting every modern invention. Um, and what it got to, uh, crypto

trading, he, uh, first said, you know, no, this is not for me. And at the end, it said, don't be like Larry. And you know, we all probably should have been like Larry. In, in retrospect, it was very much a top signal. Am I still echoing? You are. This is Twitter. Yeah. Yeah. You sound like you're, you're down in the basement. That were the miners are.

You want, like, I have all this computers connected. Everything and it, all the newest technology. Let's, let's just turn Bluetooth off. Let's turn Bluetooth back on. All right. How about now? All right. Any better now? Now about the same, but, uh, just push on. I think we can give up. I give up. How much is on the backcase? The mad big coins backcase? You know, it

would be great if you did your mad big coins intro with that echo. It was done incredible. I tried to, but I don't know where this echo is coming from. It's like naturally coming from your voice. That's just what you sound like. You just don't know it. It's playing twice somewhere. It's like the most logical choice. You know, it's funny because I don't know. I know

a few who were involved in other scams like BlockFi and whatnot and someone to try to get me in the Celsius, uh, a year or so ago. But, you know, I will say, um, I'm fairly, uh, against most regulations in the space, but the New York Midlight, and it might have saved a lot of people where I live from participating in the scam because we didn't

even get an FDF. They did not do business in New York. So, I think that's possibly the saving grace for the people I know. Oh, come on. Well, for my understanding, no one in the US. Like, what is this true? Is no one in the US was able to use FTS? They had to make FTS US like finance. But they, but they still only supported states

that didn't have, uh, heavy regulation on the crypto industry. So New York, I think Hawaii and Washington State were bossing. I think they were, uh, but everyone else could be involved. So if you had, uh, you know, maybe skirted regulations, uh, use the driver's license for another state, something like that, you could have probably got an account. I'm very glad I did. In fact, it was,

uh, I remember, I remember a friend of mine actually asked me how to get an FDX. And I looked at it and I said, oh, you don't want to be involved with that. And as soon as we realized they weren't, um, you know, it doesn't matter if it's in New York regulated company or not. But, uh, when I saw, you know, the fact that any exchange

that has its own exchange of tokens, uh, you know, I don't use finance, but I don't use any of these exchanges. I think if you have a token on your, on your exchange, you should really, uh, you know, assume that some sort of scamming vehicle design really to just benefit the exchange itself, not you as a holder. I think it's interesting that everyone wants to be

like the Federal Reserve and have their own printed money machine. So it's, it's interesting. The first thing that, uh, you know, every exchange from my experience, all the way back to Bitcoin, just used Bitcoin. Mt. Oks just used Bitcoin. Crypts, he didn't have its own token. And then I don't know if it was buying assets coin that they used to raise money to build the exchange

that kind of triggered everyone. Oh, we should do that. But, um, you know, I'm sure there was plenty of dollar scamming things happening. On the exchanges before, you know, they had their own token. Well, and they were doing other things. They did have their own token, uh, Morgan. I think it was one of the things they started to go down because I was going to say

that I agree with Daniel and my brothers always saying that, uh, whenever they print their own token, that's when they start to go down. Well, what was it? That's cryptocurrency token. Like what was it? I don't remember that. And I like him in that class action lawsuit to get off. All my doors, coin and Bitcoin back from big brands. So I was unaware of that. I

feel it was. I was also in the crypt the hack. Uh, I lost some stuff on there too. But I don't remember it's token. But I do remember is that they have this thing called a fault where they promised that if you put your coins in there, you could. I think you could earn more yield on the coins. I don't remember exactly how it worked. But

it was basically an extra secure, you know, I'm using air quotes here. Uh, uh, place where you could store your crypto. And, uh, of course, once they open the vault, uh, and it whenever it's other funds again. Hmm. I do remember that the vault. It seems a lot of those exchanges back in the day. You could, uh, you could own bit shares or something. You could

go to that one website that was selling stock in things. And then you would get a cut of the trade of the daily volume. Don't you guys think cryptocurrency did that wasn't one of those. I do. Yeah. Because when I look at the list of Bitcoin kinetics on crypto stocks, dot com, uh, cryptocurrency was on there too. I remember that, um, that was like the first

version of, of equity that paid dividends in Bitcoin that I ever found. So I actually used that for my company. And I, and then lawyer told me to leave it because it was in Germany. And, um, I was the US company. But I remember cryptocurrency was the number one on that crypto stocks. Dom. Yeah, I think that's, uh, what my, uh, I think that's a, uh,

I've got my own money here. And that's a thing I've got. My brother and what we'd refer to with the, uh, cryptocurrency making their own coin, very similar to Binance, who later made their own coin and Binance became a billion dollar company. And, uh, cryptocurrency became just ran off. Okay. So maybe the innovation and, and, and, and whatever you call it, they're trying to be like

the further reserve was actually having their own token on their own exchange. Crypti had it on someone else's exchange. There was, it was, it was maybe it was an entity they had a hand in, but it was a separate thing. But for my knowledge, you couldn't trade on cryptocurrency, the cryptocurrency token. And Binance was probably the first place you could trade the Binance coin on Binance.

And they must have used that to all of their derivative advantages, you know, I think so. It's always better to control the whole stack to have vertical integration as the Rockefeller said. On own at all. See if we can get an anti up here to speak. Anti, will you tell us like we were five? What did SBF do? How did he think he was going to

get away with it? Why do I sound like I'm in an echo or something? I don't know. Well, what do you think, Daniel? Are these guys? Are they going to be caught? Or will they run forever? I don't think that he's going to run. He's just too well connected. You know, he's not the kind of guy who I think can flee the Bahamas and go to

some other country and, you know, live his life. Like, what worries me actually is that he's so well connected that he may not ever go to jail. It's more likely that he'll get kind of a plea deal or a sweetheart deal and get a free pass. And, you know, a few years ago, now people are going to look for the redemption story and he'll probably get

the right again, which worries me more than anything else, you know, whether he goes to prison or not, he should for what he did. Absolutely, because he was, you know, he had a fiduciary duty as someone who, you know, is a CEO of a financial institution taking large sums of money from people across the world. And the types of people that invest with him, obviously, many

of them could probably stomach losing what they invested, but general public, you know, there are people, I read stories of people who've lost everything on this. And, you know, think about the teachers pension funds that invested in this. And of course, you know, they all had to, you know, do their due diligence and clearly they didn't. But the fact of my answer is that, you know,

he is someone who probably will live on from this and not face the type of prosecution that, you know, he deserves and that other people in this space who've done for our lesser crimes, that have been forced to have to congen with. In context, just remember that not one person from Lehman Brothers went to prison, not one person from Wells Fargo went to prison for making

fake accounts and stealing customer money. And not one person from JP Morgan, HSBC or Doche Bank for laundering money for drug cartels and ever went to prison. So, you can't expect prosecutors who want to put anyone who has money in their pockets to prison. That just has never happened, which is sad. But don't expect this to be like the first lightning strike for someone like the

50's sherry goes to prison because it's not happened in my entire life. And then the other thing is that he was actively involved in working with regulators in Washington, trying to craft regulations that will affect the basic legal level of the federal government. And so it's more likely than not that the regulations that he champion will live on and be turned into law, regardless of the

fact that he's a scammer. And, you know, someone who we shouldn't be taken seriously in this space. But clearly, the things that he was promoting are exactly the things that this government and governments around the world are interested in pursuing. In the goal of trying to become the arbiters of what digital currencies are. And so I expect the fallout from this will be many years from

now. We'll still be living with it. Just like we're living with the fallout from outcops, the bit-licens in New York, which is crafted specifically to deal with the collapse of outcops and people living there. They're funds. Under the guise of protecting consumers. And of course we saw what happened there, which was the person who came in. And so the government, who wrote that policy, went on

to work in the industry. He became an advisor to Ripple. And now he works for, was it nine-day or NYDFF. So clearly, you know, there's an agenda here. We all know this. And the agenda is to essentially capture this industry and allow the governments to have their say. And, you know, the only thing that gives me kind of an encouragement, a bit of encouragement is that,

you know, Bitcoin is a response to the financial collapse in 2007 and 2008. And so perhaps this will encourage more people to take a second look at Bitcoin and realize that it is the only technology that can protect us from this type of occurrence again. I give you the shot. I hope you can hear me well. I think, um, I'm going to be able to do

this. One of the times there was a gambler and he wanted to gamble more with bigger stacks. So he created an exchange. And it went well for a time during a period of time. And then he started to borrow stuff to other companies. And, well, it seems like everything is lost. Now I have a set of questions. I would like to ask you guys, answer the

first one would be, is money a value or is money represents debt? The other one is, how can you lose so much money? It must be somewhere. It's not really lost. It's just in a different pocket, I think. And I want answer to, I really agree with Danny and Morgan, I think, well, he just previously, at the end, he's going to get our earliest life in

the bridge because he's coming maybe from the right family and also well connected. So this is all thanks. I forgot what pocket my money was. I like that. You're still in the well, Danny. Why am I in the well? How about now? How about this? Okay. I'm going to ask this. How about this? How about that? It's all right, man. You got some cool reverb going.

It's not bad. This setting somewhere. We're going to find it. You got that stadium reverb on. It's almost like that. Oh, wait. Oh, yeah. It's part of this stupid soundboard thing. It's a voice transformer thing is on. Okay. I'll wait for this. Okay. Did it turn off? This is, I blame Elon. How do I do that? See if I see it better. Yeah. It's even better.

It's going to get better. I want to figure it out. Let's see. Oh, that's not better. Yeah. It's a voice transformer. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, it was the voice transformer as part of the new features. Okay. Because yeah, I'm checking all these other things that have nothing to do with that. So yeah, I was messing with like everything else. I don't know if I have that

feature. Oh, yeah, I don't have it. Oh, wait. No, there it is. If you go into soundboard, I mean, yeah, I was in soundboard. Yeah. I was like, oh, I want to change my voice now. Exactly. And then if you don't know about it, you're stuck in there forever. I love it. Okay. I'm turning that off. But you know what? I am going to use the

soundboard now because, you know, that's clearly something that enhances the sound. The mobile app is the soundboard on the mobile app. Yeah. It looks like you have a little magic wand. It's like a magic wand for some reason. No, I don't. Oh, you guys are all on I phone up. You need to update your app, man. No, they just hate us because we're Android. They don't

give us shit. All right. So so now that I can let's see, can I even hear myself if I could hear myself and it sounded right. We sound proper now. Now, man, man. Cool. Okay. So is money a value or a dead? I mean, I think obviously as optimistic Bitcoiners, we want to think back to the time of the gold standard when money was a value.

But unfortunately, we have to say right now, if we're talking about federal reserve bucks, there's a lot of things that we can do. We're printed by the USA. It's definitely a debt. So did FDX have value? Did he have debt? It's tough to say I've seen these incredible things lately where they say he had no Bitcoin on his books. Yet all this list of of paper,

where he's supposed to have real bitcoins, but he had no actual bitcoins. And it's amazing that he can lose so much money. But mainly it was about these bad bets and like mortgage was saying about leverage and how you can just get. Out of control with your debts and just gambling, I think you just gamble it away or his girlfriend did somebody did. I want to

say that I got to see that beautiful corporate structuring chart that was released about FDX, many LLC corporations and on all of the entities that were in the little conglomerate that him and his group created. And as a professional money wander myself, I would like to say, I'm going to say that I'm going to be a big company. I didn't see one trust in there. And

so unfortunately that money is probably not gone. It's probably been moved into a trust, which is disconnected from the commercial code. So there is no LLC. There is no corporation in a trust. There is no need to report to a government when you're in a trust. And so some bank account or some wallet held by a trust is probably holding lots of money that left some

of those corporate and LLC. And we will never see that money because Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are trackable in the blockchain. But once they're put in a trust, no one knows who owns the trust because the trust owns the asset that a trustee can be resigned. And no one knows who the beneficiaries are or the granta. None of that stuff is public for a trust. So you

can expect that there is a lot of money that left the FTX empire and went to some unpaid ABC trust that no one knows that he may be a beneficiary or trustee to. And it could even be layered in multiple trusts where a trustee could be another trust. So we don't know that that money just vaporized. It probably just moved somewhere. Do you think it's entirely

possible that some of this money never existed? You know, if FTX was claiming their customers were buying and they were buying it. And that's the asset, let's just say Bitcoin. And they didn't actually have it, but they credited their account so you thought on the screen. It may have never existed in the first place. Now they took your dollars and they took whatever you traded it

for and did something with it. You know, most likely converted to FTP tokens and tried to get more yield on it. But it's funny, you know, we were asking like what happens to your account when something like this happens. You guys all know Dave Porto. He posted this. Two days ago, any key wrote this is a tweet I was looking for. I have a dumb question.

If I bought Bitcoin through FTPX and FTPX goes belly up and where do they go? Like, you never actually had the key. You never withdrew the coins. So whatever they were, they weren't yours. They were just a number on a screen that you thought was yours. They can do whatever they want in the back end. And you have no control. And a lot of people learn

that hard lesson. A few days ago. Well, and remember these new Bitcoins are coming up now. They don't have the benefit that we had where you actually had a Bitcoin QT wallet on your computer. And you could understand you could be like, wow, I can run this little application. Or I can run eventually a smaller, lighter version of that on your phone. They haven't really synced

to the real blockchain. They haven't really seen like the Bitcoin miracle. Like when you have that QT wallet and you buy, you know, 100 bucks or whatever on Coinbase, you send it to the wallet. And it appears. And you know that it wasn't really Coinbase that sent it, right? It's the Bitcoin network that sent it. Yeah, Portnoy and people like that have no idea what that

really is. And that's why that other tweet that was really popular recently, Daniel, I'm sure you saw it where the guy said, if you have to learn how to use a hardware wallet to use this technology that it's never going to catch on. Did you see that one? I don't know if I saw that one, but I've heard that that many times, you know, I had

a conversation with someone about that just a couple weeks ago. You know, the same idea that, you know, hardware walls will never catch on the self custody will never catch on. You know, it's the same way of saying, you know, the internet will never catch on. And cell phones don't have to catch on. So I think things like that are, they may only appear necessary at

the moment. People realize that they needed them already. And then it will become something that that over time is more common. And you know, we saw, you know, we Jack Dorsey is talking about building a brand new type of hardware wallet for the math is something that's lower price points than a treasure, which is already. I really love it. But the fact that anybody can get

that on their whether it's, you know, part of their personal device, maybe it's integrated into a phone or something that they can learn how to use very quickly. I think that has a lot of potential. But I also wonder, and this is just me wondering how loud if the user experience that Bitcoin has now become too easy, not just Bitcoin, but all the apps that are

in this space, if there's too slick and too easy and they feel like banks. And they're industry. They're distinguishable from Bank of America or even better UX. And you know, obviously the way you'll get from your chase app, if that gives people a false sense of confidence that someone is behind that standing behind their their their value and guaranteeing them in the same way that FDIC

insurance guarantees their their value. And of course, none of that exists in the space at all. So I wonder if it's, you know, that's part of the route. That's the illusion that companies like this have created where they have, you know, they spend most of their their research on marketing and building beautiful customer experiences that don't do anything to protect their customer fund. And you know,

it's not until something like this blows up that people actually realize that. And we know we've never seen anything on this scale before in this industry, you know, back on Mac OS exploded, but people kind of expected that. Like you could tell the whole thing looked like it was built like a MacGyver machine, you know, it's just sort of I don't know how it ever helped

it. It was made to do. You need for magic togethering cards. Yeah. It was never designed for Bitcoin. It was just kind of a flap together as you know, hate the leaves. And when they realize they can make a lot of money off Bitcoin. I think what you said about user interface is really interesting because it makes me think back to the Satoshi client when we

had wallet, node and minor in one application. Even before it was QT the first versions. I think, you know, Kings Satoshi put all of that in one thing to not be like the best user interface, but to realize that you don't have anyone behind you. This is all you. You're the node through the minor and the wallet. And then a lot of talking head said that.

Well, we shouldn't have miners touching the wallet at the same, you know, computer your computer gets hacked. You know, you're going to lose your wallet. So let's separate the wallet from the minor and and then, you know, like eventually the phone. Became so much more convenient. Let's just separate the node out to and make it a light wallet and we don't need to sync it. And

all of that has faded into like what what has been Franklin say those who want convenience over Liberty don't deserve neither. And. Exactly. Yeah, but you know what I will say about that also is that I think just the technological limitations of a home computer mining. You know, I wasn't fortunate enough to be part of that early class with Bitcoin users where I was able to

find. Back when it was still possible to do on a laptop or a home PC. But, you know, once it got to the point where it demanded so much process of resources, so much power. You couldn't really mine and use a wallet on the same machine. It sort of had to separate. And so I credit man, Bitcoin's with inspiring me to build my own node. But

I think that's what I'm going to do. It took me longer to plan the whole process and actually build it. I probably thought about it for a few weeks and actually many years thinking like how do I even run a node. I don't even have to do that. And then I saw how easy it had become. So I went and bought all the parts. They got

umber all downloaded it set it up in an hour and watch the blockchain download. And, you know, just what you said at Bitcoin's the magic experience of just seeing the blockchain download for the first time. I've never seen that before. And I'm watching these early, early blocks come in, you know, from the Genesis block on to the latest block. And, you know, I can look back

and remember like, yeah, that's when still growth happened. Like there's that how many transactions, you know, there's a wiki leaf. It's all in there. It's all in the history of Bitcoin. And so to have that kind of perspective, you know, you kind of have to have been at least observing space for a bunch of years. It's not participating. And it's directly to really have that kind

of clarity and understand what it is you're seeing. And so, you know, yeah, do I think everybody should run a node? Yes. Is everybody going to run a node? No. But you should understand why these things exist and why self custody and key management is so important. And, you know, I do meet up in spaces on, you know, frequently where I talk about this. I talked

specifically about key security about getting your coins off exchanges. Because I've been in that place before where I have lost, I lost coins because I was mishandling my keys or trusting a third party. I don't want to see that happen to anyone else. And so, you know, it's not, it's just about me like, hey, look at me. Look at the mistake I've made and learn how

you can protect yourself. But unfortunately, a lot of people have to go through that pain to really understand why they need to do something. The really neat thing about downloading the blockchain is that as always going to be the same even as computers and network connections get faster is that there are so few transactions in the beginning. So the beginning, the first couple of years go

really fast and it gives you this false belief that downloading the blockchain is going to be easy. And you're like, this is great. I should have done this years ago. It just, you know, it dribbles right now, 2011, 2013. Oh, it's just kicking along. And then you get to the more popular periods of Bitcoin, you start to realize the magnitudes that we've increased only even in

the time that we've been watching this where the blockchain is really big. You know, like, we're, you know, downloading days and days now at this point, right? Yeah, you see that it's sort of an exponential growth in real time. You can see it happening. And you have the first 50% 60% of the blockchain is downloaded in two hours. And then the rest of it takes six

days. You know, you're getting that 95 99 percent and you're like, when is going to finish? And you realize you're still, you know, thousands of blocks behind the current block. And finally, when you get changed, then, you know, then your note is up and running and you can actually do things with it. And, and, you know, that's one of the second sort of phase of the

magic comes in when you can, you can look at the block explorer. You can set up a lightning channel. You can do all these things. To, you know, add utility to your Bitcoin experience. You can actually verify your own transactions. You can connect your own wallet directly to your node. So you don't have to send your data out to some third party. It's, you know, the,

I think that if you value your privacy, if you value the practice of, you know, understanding and being a bit corner, which means really, you know, having that self-soffroncy, being able to take control of your own financial life. It's something that you shouldn't miss out on. But a lot of people, they just, they're in it for, for, for the game, they're in it for the dollar

game. And so they don't really be the benefit of all the things that I think we, you know, have internalized over the years that we've been part of the, the experiment. Lauren Good, what do you think you've downloaded the blockchain before? I think that, you know, we have Jeff Dorsey in Square making these hardware wallets. I spent my Bitcoin career making full nodes and devices that

accepted Bitcoin, like machines. I think I would love to see the full node become as popular as the hardware wallet. I don't think, I think the companies have done the software for the full nodes, like Umbro and things like that are great. I think the problem is there isn't a ledger for full node. There isn't a keep key or a treasurer like company that is making

full node. Hardware software combined. They're just software companies and they're people pushing things onto Raspberry Pi's and their laptops and other things at all, you know, separated. Raspberry Pi was not made to be a full node, but it's being used as a full node. And like treasurer was made software and hardware and ledger was made software and hardware to be a hardware wallet. And that's I'm

assuming what block and square is making as a software hardware stack dedicated to be a hardware wallet. I want to see someone make the equivalent of the ledger and marketed right of the full node, the software hardware in one piece, made specifically for that. I tried to do that years ago. Very difficult. But we need a full node that you could just buy out of the

box and turn on. And the hardware and software are made to pair together and they work. And then they need to be sold like at the equivalent of Walmart, just like the ledger is on the market. Walmart website. And that's my hope is to see the full node become a normalized piece of hardware. You have next to your PlayStation and Xbox and you just bought it

from the store and turn it on and it works. And then the next thing would be that same exact equivalent. Hopefully happens to the minor. But the full node to me is more important. There's plenty of people working on the wallets and there are plenty companies mining Bitcoin. But I think there's definitely not enough companies. And so the three things were separated from each other from

Sotoshi's original software stack. I think that's Bitcoiners specifically need to dedicate our energy money resources, our companies to building wallets, school nodes and miners. Because those are Bitcoin, that's all it is. And I think that would be great. Because downloading the blockchain is awesome. But I think that's a great way to get the money back. But to do all the radio shack like work of sitting

up a Raspberry Pi and flashing SD cards and all that is cumbersome to anyone who's not a computer nerd. And everyone has a PlayStation or an Xbox and they're magical computers. They were found in wall heads in Saddam Hussein's ballistic missiles. They're great computers. But all you do is buy it and turn it on and it works. So we need to just buy a hardware like

device, a full node, not a Raspberry Pi bill that you're seeing. So I want to buy a self kit which is great. But I want to be able to buy something for a seven year old or a five year old and say, hey, this is a full node. Plug it in next to your PlayStation and it mine. It actually doesn't mind Bitcoin. It just beats track

of the coin. You want a miner. You got to buy the second device and plug that into your full node. It needs to be baby steps like that. And and then we'll hear let me set you up an actual hardware wallet to get track of those coins that comes from the full node that the miner has not made. And I think the full node, the piece

that's not there, it's not done right yet. I love Raspberry Pi. I love setting it up. I love downloading the blockchain. I love the things like Umbrell and the Bitcoin full node, all the software companies and the dojo, the samurai wallet versions, all those things are great. But a five year old may not be ready to do that. The five year old will play Grand Theft

Auto on a PlayStation because they push the button and it turns on. So it needs to be that level of out of the box. You know, I kind of want to play devil that because I'm not just a minute because while I think that that's a wonderful idea to have. It goes back to my earlier question about user experience. And if it's so plug and play

and so easy. So you think there's a chance that people might not take. Take it seriously enough and understand the gravity of what it is that they're holding. Yes, 100% Bitcoin. All three are together. I think that problem is solved. If it's just the wallet hardware wallet by itself or the miner trusting some cloud miner to mine for you or having Umbrell give you the software

and you put it on a Raspberry Pi that are running out of supplies. You're now dependent on these people giving you the hardware, giving you the software. And that that still is worse than the user interface problem. But if I have my own hardware wallet, my own full node. And my own mind. I'm not a miner that are total user interface easy. I am truly self

custody bit. If I'm missing one of those and one of those is depending on some software, a hardware supplier to give it to me. That's not what Bitcoin originally was. That's why all three were stacked. So I think exactly what you're saying is really the big problem. If you are only focusing on one of the three things. We have full node wallet and miner in my

possession and those units are interfaces are great. I'm a self-sover in Bitcoiner. But if one of them is dependent on someone else, it breaks the whole thing. I think Morgan's on to something here. If you think about Coinbase and the centralized exchanges. As it is now, if you want to turn someone on a Bitcoin, you give them Coinbase, you give them cash app, you give them

strike. These are all kind of centralized exchanges where someone else is doing the work for you. Someone else is holding your coins. And as much as we'd like them to be just exchanges, they all have reason to become banks and people have reason to be lazy. Everyone wants to leave their coins on the exchange because they're lazy. We don't want extra steps. But like Morgan saying,

if you introduce to and well, it's a kind of thing where we could solve these three problems now, or we could keep having failures at one of these sections until we solve these three problems later. In the future, we're going to need Bitcoin. Coinbase is the key to the future. We're going to need a more distributed Bitcoin mining ecosystem. The current system is miners in giant

buildings in giant countries. That's pretty easy to track down. In the future, if people continue to dislike Bitcoin and want to shut it down, it's going to be a lot harder to do that if everyone's just running one in their house like a PlayStation. Oh, that machine purring in the corner. That's not an air filter. That's a Bitcoin miner. And like Morgan saying, I can see

the plastic apple-like colors. I can see them as like a red brick and a smaller red brick and an even smaller red brick. That's like the hardware wallet. And all the software is open source. And it comes pre-configured. And it's easy to use. And it'd be a cool company. I don't know if you'd make money, like making money is the hard part of a company. But

if you could build out that line. And if you could have the explanation where like Daniel is saying that second half of the node, I haven't done the second half of the node. I'm busy. I know that my node is running in the corner. At least I'm pretty sure that it's running in the corner. I know it's turned on. And like Daniel said, I built it

out of a Raspberry Pi as Morgan was saying radio shack style. And for me, it's no problem to flash an SD card. For me, it's no problem to form out a hard drive or to mess with partition. I can handle it. But for a normal person, that's ridiculous. And that's what it would take to really solve this problem. Because like Morgan say, we can Bitcoin came

along. And everyone's like, oh, what a great thing. You know what would look great next to Bitcoin? My centralized institution. And whether it's Coinbase or Crackin or Binance, they all built a centralized institution where they would make it easy for you to use Bitcoin. And I think that's what I'm saying. And as Daniel is saying, the UX, it has become enticing. It has become too easy.

The new Coinbase app. And I do hope they kind of get sued for this. I don't know if you can get sued over user interface. But the new Coinbase app charges you a different fee, depending on how you use the app. If you're lazy and you choose the cell button, which seems like the obvious choice, you pay ridiculous Coinbase fees so much so that I actually

noticed them. And thought to myself, why am I paying such a high percentage to buy and sell such a small amount of Bitcoin or Altcoin or whatever. If you go into the trading section and you know how to place a market order, right? Cause limit orders are confusing market orders are just sell it now. Just buy it now, right? Which people understand you pay less fees.

It's crazy, right? These are completely different actions. It's nuts. The Coinbase is doing this. And it has, it's completely separated from the blockchain to the point where Dave Portinoi, who's definitely a smart guy, bar stool sports does all these investments, like runs his own show doesn't sound like a echo. We robot for half an hour and still doesn't understand. Still doesn't understand if there was bitcoins

inside of FTX, if they're his bitcoins, if he's getting them back. It's kind of like when you used to buy stock from some company and they would send you the stock shares in the mail. And so it wouldn't matter if Goldman Sachs or whatever went down, you'd have those real stock shares. Well, he didn't get the real Bitcoin shares, right? Nobody sent him a hardware wallet.

No one explained it how it worked. Nobody even tried to send him a paper wallet. So all of his bitcoins, which were in SPS or with in FTX, which might not even exist because we don't even know if they're holding. The Bitcoin that you think you're buying. And that's how bad an idea these exchanges are and how unsatoshi an idea they are. Satoshi was never like,

let's build an exchange. It's just like the founding fathers. They are like everyone will get along and will never have factions will never have political parties. We don't even need to plan for that. I mean, imagine if it becomes a dual opally to parties feeding each other for hundreds of years until one of them becomes completely corrupt. Don't even think about it. The fact that the

House of Parliament has five parties fighting with each other, green coalition, all that will never have factions. Satoshi dreamed we'd never have exchanges. And I do think Morgan's really on to it when you talk about that kind of. And I want to get religious with you now that holy Trinity of that original Bitcoin app where you could mine and you could node and you could wall

it all at the same time. That is kind of a superpower. That is kind of something that we've lost. And if there was a company, although again, I don't, I don't know if it would make money. It doesn't siphon off customer funds into another account. So it's not really valuable. But if there was a company that like Morgan saying built like Lego or Duplo brought blocks

of node, minor and wallet. That'd be cool. I'd buy one of those. I'd try to buy those for kids. So I think that's a super good idea. And I think Daniel's got a good idea too on the second level node stuff. You said a lot of things there that I wanted to respond to. But I didn't want to. Well, how Daniel go first and then Morgan

and I mean interject with first and foremost, you said one of the parties is corruption. I couldn't stop laughing. But I've been waiting for two years. I've been here to set up a lighting channel with you. And I hope that you will eventually get around to getting your node up and running. So I do credit you with an inspiring view to get mine up and running.

And I'm actually in the process of trying to teach others to build nodes now. And what we want to do is actually create a network of nodes in our local area. And then expand that as far as we can internationally. So we can get actual lightning activity going amongst our sort of circular. Economy. I think it's really important to be able to show that kind of

utility on Bitcoin. Because most people still have an experience lightning. They think of Bitcoin as a slow protocol. They understand it in sort of the 10 minute blocks and the confirmation cycles. And I want to be able to share this. This new possibility with people to say that, you know, you don't need an alt coin to do what Bitcoin can do because you can send it.

You can send any amount almost. You can send it to the node fees anywhere anytime. And final settlement as soon as the other party receives it. But to get people to understand it. And even just like self-custening your own lightning is confusing to people too. So I think there's so many different things that we need to think about in terms of how to onboard people and

understand the title of this show. It's playing like on five. You have to treat it like that. You people don't really understand any of the basics. You could try to explain what lightning is and what Bitcoin is. And before you know what, you've had a four hour conversation. And they're just, you know, their mind is completely blank because they don't understand what you said. So, you

know, I love the idea of being able to create something that is easy to use for the masses. But it still takes a whole different worldviews. It's realized that Bitcoin is not a fiat currency and doesn't have any of the connections. This term skew of morphism, which you might be aware of. It's something that's used in art and design. And it's like when you try to

make a user interface, it looks like a previous interface. So like a lot of the early websites were designed to look like TVs and things like that with knobs and dials. And, you know, you give them something familiar that they can hook on to so that they can have some basis of understanding the technology you want to present them. And I think sometimes you need to

do that to make it easy for people to get to where you are. But it takes time. I don't expect this journey for anyone to take five minutes or even five days or months. We've all been on this for years. And so even busser, we're discovering new things every day. Anyway, I'm sure I had other things I wanted to talk to you about. But I think

we're running out of time. But I think Daniel, we should do a show called Fun With Nodes. And we should figure out how to do nodes. Morgan, I think you got a really solid idea for a node. A node company here and for a small minor company, a small hardware wallet. I don't know if it's going to make money. But I do think it's a good

idea. And I'll also try to talk to Ben about that. Maybe Ben can get some ideas like that. Roland. And just before we close out the show, I'm going to give you guys one more chance. When do you think FTX will be caught? Do you think you'll end up in jail? Just really quickly we're going to go down the line. Fran, what do you think? I

stated before, I don't think maybe some people will go to jail. But I think the CEO and maybe people hire up won't go to jail because they have like a get me out of jail, cart or something like that. Maybe. I hope they would end in jail. But the reality looks a little bit different at the moment. I just wanted to mention that sometimes it's not

an issue to get some Bitcoin full node. It's more to get them spread around the world. If you take a look at the BitNodes.io, you will see that most of them are in the US or Europe. Some in Asia and a few in South America. But there are a lot of empty spots. So there is a lot of things that I'm going to do. I think

that's a good goal for Bitcoin to have. And thank you Fran. I think Morgan, you're going to agree with Fran here. He's not going to be caught. As a person who's been in prison over Bitcoin, I will say that not even a hundred years ago, everyone who was in prison was there for white collar money crimes. Because if he stole a horse, you haunt. And if

he shot someone, you know, he's going to be caught. And if you said something, you know, antithetical to society, you were hung. So almost everyone never went to jail up until a hundred years ago. They were just killed for their crimes. And, you know, you stole money from the train. You went to jail. But if you stole a horse from the train, they hung you. So

I would say that if you impoverish country amount of people, I'm all for the gallows. If he does get caught. But I also have sympathy for anyone who goes prison to the fucking sucks. But the guy says he doesn't like books. So maybe he does need to go to prison so he can learn how to read a fucking book. So that's my two step. We'll have

to see how it turns out. And Daniel, are you going to agree with the panel? He will be caught, but not jailed and not jailed forever. Like I think we're all thinking. Yeah. In fact, I don't think he's going to be caught. I think he's going to turn himself in. And then he's going to play some sort of sympathy card and use his connection to avoid

any real repercussions. So probably have to pay a fine. Perhaps we'll have to do something. Philanthropic with the rest of his life. So he can try to redeem himself. But do I think he's going to be like Russell Brooks and rotting in prison for the rest of his life? No, I don't think so. I think he's going to be. He's going to pick up trash on

the side of the freeway. You mean shit points? You know, like, you know, you get a little slap on the wrist from the judge. They make you pick up trash on the freeway. I mean, we're going to see this guy in a hazard suit on the side of the freeway. Some sort of like clean up the ocean trash foundation and raise money for it and try

to tokenize it. Well, if he does that, I'll give him a wink and then nod like that. You know, he does. He's a whale. I definitely got to do something to redeem himself. Unfortunately, as much as I, as much as I wish that he would spend hard time and that he would work it off, I think Morgan's going to be probably right. He's not going to

even pick up trash on the side of the freeway. He's incredibly powerful. He's incredibly well connected. It's a natural response. We all want him punished, especially people who lost lots of money and people who know people who lost money. But I don't know for sure that it's going to happen. So thanks so much. Morgan Daniel and Fran. So let's go to the show for joining me

on this great show. Morgan. Good to see you again. Daniel. It's been a while as well too. Maybe we'll do these shows more often. But just want to do a quick check in and have you guys explain to me like it's five. If you're just joining now and you want to check it back. The show will be available on world crypto network. Com on the YouTube

and the Twitter's and all the places. Thanks so much for joining us. Until next time. Bye bye. Bye bye.