Zach Braff Is Processing Pain Through Art

The Rich Roll Podcast What if I was completely authentic with my own pain? I stopped with all the bullshit and stopped with trying to be anything else other than let me write something that is very authentically myself. I sat down to write this film about grief and about loss but also about how one stands back up. As a writer this is what's gurgling inside of you

and when you sit down and stare at the blank cursor to see what's going to come out this is what came out. We all face difficult experiences at some point in our lives. Laws, grief, disappointment, but what if we could transform our pain into something beautiful? What if we could use our creativity to process our emotions and in turn transmute them into something that speaks to

others, serves as a communal salve, helps us better understand our own pain and in turn illustrates that hope, help and healing is possible. Well today we explore the art of understanding, accepting and processing emotion with the incredibly talented actor, writer, director, and new friend, Zach Braff. Many of you may know Zach from the Hit TV Show Scrubs or perhaps from his Seminal Directorial debut Garden State,

which was a much celebrated independent film that Zach wrote, directed and starred in alongside Natalie Portman. But today we dive into the creative process behind Zach's newest directorial effort, a good person, which is this really beautiful story about a young woman played by the incredibly talented Florence Pew, whose world crumbles in the wake of surviving just an unimaginable tragedy. It's a story about grief, it's about

addiction, forgiveness, trust, it's about friendship. And most importantly, the messy path to sobriety, to becoming whole, which are all themes very close to my heart, of course, that I relate to deeply through my own lived experience. And which I think Zach renders with a very keen appreciation for the complexity and the nuance of this emotional landscape, as well as this just incredible degree of accuracy that's

rarely portrayed in cinema. I got a couple more things I would very much like to mention before we dig into this one, but first. We're brought to you today by Thesis. From respected scholars to elite ultraathletes, I think it's fair to say I've interviewed some of the best of the best on this podcast. And I'm recurring theme in the success of these individuals is their ability

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that's squarespace.com slash rich role, offer code RichRoll. Today we explore the themes of addiction, compassion, forgiveness, and self discovery that the film grapples with. In addition to discussing Zach's background and his personal relationship with creativity is creative process. We talk about what happens when you create with authenticity, when you're able to find presence in pain. It means to take all of that and create meaning for

yourself. We also discuss Zach's own personal journey in bringing this particular story to life. And the impact that he hopes it will have on audiences. Zach is an artist in the truest sense of the word. I really love getting to know him through this conversation. And it's just a privilege to share his wisdom and experience with you today. Final note, if you care about independent cinema

like I do, if you enjoy mature fairs, great writing, great acting, and look, if you just want to be entertained because this movie is that, as well as quite funny at times, then please make a point of going to the theater this weekend and checking it out. A good person open-stanti nationwide, March 24th. How long it remains in the theaters is kind of up to you.

So if you enjoy this conversation, and I think you will, let's help Zach out a little bit and make this one a hit. And with that, here we go. This is me and Zach for off. Do you run every single day? No, I've got like lower back issues right now. So I'm actually benched from running at the moment. Doing all these weird exercises to try to

alleviate my back pain. But I might be looking at surgery. So I'm a little hampered. Red goldstein, you know that actor from Ted Lasso who plays Roy Kent. Do you watch that show? A little bit. I'm like one of the few people that hasn't like gone deep on to her. I'm a Ted Lasso. I'm invested because I know. I know. But anyway, the famous biscuit episode,

I have lower back issues too. And I saw him at a party. And he goes, I want you to read this book. I'm someone who's had back surgery. And I'm going to send you a book. I want you to get this book. It goes, it's all in your mind. Yeah. The Sarno book. Yeah. The Sarno book. Did you read it? I've got a great story about

it. I finished your thought. But anyway, I'm like, I'm literally at this get together with a fucking back brace on. And he hugs me and he feels it. And he goes, I've had surgery. I've gone down the wormhole. And you're going to roll your eyes. It means you should read this book. So I haven't read the book yet, but I ordered the book. Yeah. So it's

by this guy. I believe it's Paul Sarno. And I can't remember the title, but it's something like healing back pain. And the thesis of this book is essentially that not all back pain, but certain types of back pain are really the result of unhealed emotional trauma. And if you go into that and heal that, you will release whatever it is that's causing you that pain. I

believe the hypothesis. It is a good hypothesis. I think there's truth in that. And that book has been recommended to me so many times by so many people over the years. And I consistently resisted it. You don't understand. You know, you don't understand. This is real. And I've got MRIs and like the whole thing. I've tried all these alternative modalities. And then I was at a

birthday party maybe six months ago, talking to a PT person and a breathwork person. And then up walks Toby and I was like, I'm a choir. And he's like, are you talking about back pain? And then he tells his story of back pain. And he refers this book, right? And I was like, okay, I've been referred this book a million times. But I've never been referred

this book by like an a list. It's like spider. It's just a is this the voice of God. And I was like, all right, I'm going to get this book. And I downloaded it on audible. And I went on a long bike ride and I listened to the whole thing. And I was like, okay, it's in my mind. And then the next day I like, what's

the thing that went out and went running and kind of push myself a little bit more than I should have? And I thought, well, I'm not hurting myself because it's all in my mind, right? And then my back seized up. And I was like in bed for two days. Oh no. So well, that book might not be intended for like mega marathoners like you. But for

people like me who can point to, yeah, I have had a lot of emotional trauma. And I also have a horrible back in neck. Maybe it's something to look at. I don't know that the book's going to tell me how to fix it. But I certainly have bouts of bad backs after a period of depression or periods of trauma. So that's information, right? That's good information.

Yeah. It's good data. Yeah. You should read the book. It is it is a good book. It's on my kitchen counter. Yeah. So now I'm recommending it to you. Like I had a awkward experiment with it. Anyway, Sunday emergency pods Sunday afternoon. We're here. Thank you for coming. Thank you. And doing this. Thank you. It's an auspicious day. It is unusual for us to do a

podcast on the week. And on top of that, it's daylight savings today. It's also Oscar Sunday. I take it. You're not going to the Oscar. Not for the Oscars. I'm low key watching it with friends on a couch. Yeah. Have you been in the past? I've never been to the Oscars. I've been to after parties and stuff like that. But I've never had a film that

was invited in any way. I've been to the globes and the Emmys, but never ever the big dance. Yeah. But like you would be like I would imagine you would be invited, right? Like are you somebody who's like, I'm not going unless I have a film there. I've never been invited. Yeah. I've never I've never had a film that was included. So you're really not invited

unless you're out there. Have a film that's there or your someone's date. Well, we're here instead. Yeah. The consultation. But we're here because you do have this wonderful new movie coming out. Good person. Thank you for letting me take a peek at it the other day. And I'm excited for you, man. This is a this feels like a return to something that is so authentically you

like the grown up garden state. Zach Braf like exploring complicated emotions in a way that is a story version of how you're kind of processing, you know, things that you went through in your own life. Yeah. That's very true. I think I went back to what if I was completely authentic with my own pain. And that's something that garden state very much was. And I had

no idea that it would have the response it had. But I was 25 years old when I wrote it. And I was in a very depressed state, even though a lot of wonderful things were going on in my life. I just was quite lost. And that's kind of what bubbled up and what came out of me. And now during the pandemic circumstances were such that this

is what came out of me. And so I think you're right. In both instances, I really stopped with all the bullshit and stopped with trying to be anything else other than for better for worse. Let me write something that is very authentically myself. The direct impetus was a series of losses that you experienced. You know, specifically like you had your best friend who was like living

in your guest house, right during COVID. Well, the first impetus for writing about tragedy and trauma was I lost my sister had an aneurysm in 2016. And she actually survived all the time. Although in the not a fully conscious state, in some tiny percentage of herself was alive for two more years. And my mom and brother in particular were by her bedside almost every day, because

they lived up north. And I would go visit her. And she was not only a fraction of herself was there. Then she eventually passed. And soon after my father, who was 84, but I can't help but think that it kind of expedited his demise. And I went into the COVID still grieving all of these things. And then my best friend was living in my guest house.

He and his wife and their newborn baby were searching L.A. for a home. They found a home. They went back to New York to collect their things. And literally like the first day of lockdown, they came back from New York and he had contracted COVID. And this was at the very beginning early early. Nobody knew what that was. And the hell, you know, it's the mayhem

of the beginning of, I think, March of 2020. Right. He's 41 years old, very healthy, a Broadway star, trying to get his life going as a TV and film actor. And he was very sick. And they put him on a ventilator and he never came off of it. So not only was I on the front lines of losing someone who was close to me to COVID,

but his wife and baby were living in the guest house. You know, trying to digest. I guess this horrible thing. And it was so traumatic because we didn't know if she had COVID or we didn't know, you know, it was so mean. That was back when we're all like sort of spraying our groceries in the front lawn. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So she there's a lot of

fear. She'd be solving in the pile on the ground. And we were like, can we hug her? Is it safe to hug her? She might have been exposed to it. So it was really, really horrific. And it was in that headspace during the lockdown. And I sat down to write this film about grief and about loss, but also about how one stands back up after such

things. Well, for me, like, I'm not like a film critic or somebody who has tons of filmmakers, you know, on the podcast. So I don't know where the line is. Like, I don't want to spoil anything for anybody. So maybe we root it just in the theory of things that are in the trailer that we can. Yeah. I mean, what I found interesting about it is,

yes, you explore these themes of grief and loss and loneliness and despair and this kind of very messy road to finding your way forward to recovery. But you do it through modalities that are very different from your lived experience. Right. So there's a choice that you made. Like you could have had a more direct kind of narrative that related more specifically to the things that you

experienced. But you made this decision to do it. And so it's like, you know, you know, you know, you're going to have a lot of things that you can do. And you know, you're going to have to do it through, you know, somebody who's involved in a car accident and there are people that die and there's, you know, drugs involved and etc, which is not related

to your direct experience, although the emotional experience of that character's journey, I assume, you know, kind of matches up with your own. I think so. Yeah. I think it was the way I was processing all of these things. But I didn't want to write specifically the story of my life. I didn't want to write about COVID. I didn't want to write about my self. My sister's

aneurysm. Right. But all of that was, you know, it's like as a writer, I'm sure you know you and other writers can relate. You have all of this gurgling inside of you. And when you sit down and stare at the blank cursor, to see what's going to come out or a songwriter, I imagine, would be the same. This is what came out. This story is it

was sort of my interpretation of all these feelings I had including recovery and things I'm wrestling with my own relationship to alcohol and the all of that stuff became a part of it. But it's by no means directly my story. Yeah, it's interesting like that, you know, somebody who's been in recovery for a long time, like my kind of radar for false notes in movies and

television that kind of grapple with addiction stories is pretty finely tuned. Right. And even we were talking and you're like, it'll be interesting to get my feedback on that because usually people who tell a story in that subculture are people that have experience participating in that, right, which is not you, which, you know, led me to think, well, maybe, you know, he's going to get it

wrong because so often it is like, you know, off note. But in watching the film, and this is the honest truth, like I was surprised that you were able to create such fidelity because that is typically, you know, something that only somebody who has direct experience with that world, would be able to accomplish. And I know you had, you know, experts or consultants or whatever helping

you with that. But that's a very hard thing to do. And I think it's for me, the kind of cinema verite of it all or the kind of honesty comes through in the messiness of it. Yeah. Usually the story arc is somebody has a hard time. They're going through something. They hit bottom. They end up in the rims of recovery. And then the movie ends are

like, that's the end of the story. Whereas in this narrative, it's very up and down, right? That's not the end of the story. And I think that's much more true to reality, like how difficult and nonlinear the whole thing is. Well, thank you. I have to say that means so much to me coming from you. And I was very nervous to show you. I did, of

course, have consultants. I did not want to do anything that someone in the community would go, that's not real. I asked a lot of questions. I have friends in AA. I had someone who's sort of a recovery expert who was on set anytime we dealt with that stuff. But what I was saying is, showing you the film, I was like, so nervous that not just, of

course, you know, it isn't hard to get the details of what an AA meeting is like or perhaps. But I really just wanted to honor that community. And in this film, it saves the character played by Florence Pugh's life and the character played by Morgan Freeman's life. So I wanted to honor the community. So when you had that reaction, I was relieved and happy. Yeah. Yeah.

It's not an easy thing to accomplish. Of course, you have this, of course, you have this. It's incredible, ace in the hand with Florence because she's just a genius. I mean, her, what she is able to do is so beyond like the abilities of mere mortals. It really is a gift. It's incredible. She's not of this world. I really believe in her. How does she do

that? And it's completely with her face or just with the most subtle thing, the honesty and the pathos is unbelievable with her. I'll make it one more step miraculous for you. She has never attended. She's never spoken to a acting coach. It is 1,000% God-given natural talent. And I'm not biased in saying she's one of the finest actors in the world. Everyone's lining up from Chris

Nolan to Denis Villanov to Ari Astor to you name it. They're all in a line to try and work with her. And I wrote this for you know, we were. It's no secret. Obviously we were partners and she was with me through this pandemic. We were in lockdown together. She was. She's an amazing show. And she was making Amanda pizzas and in our little mini pizza

oven and bringing them down to her. We were on the front lines of this experience together. We went through lockdown and the death of our friend together. And so I wrote this with her in mind because I wanted to write something for because she's brilliant. Yeah. Well, she knocks it out of the park not surprisingly. And I really do think that she is the greatest of

her generation. You know, she is a year apparent to Merrill Street in so many ways like nobody is. She can do what she can do. And when you watch her, you're like, how is she doing? It's so exciting. It's so exciting. I got to say it's so exciting for the acting community because there's plenty of people that are very fine actors. I think I'm a decent

actor. I can I think I do a good job. But we actors, whether it's me or or Merrill Streep, are taking this woman aside and being like holy shit. You are fucking incredible. So what is that? Like what is her? What is her process? It's God-given, man. There's just nothing. She just channels it. I mean, I'm not saying she doesn't do work. She of course she

works on the character. She spoke with in this film. Our character has an opioid addiction. And she spoke and met with a woman who recovered from a bad opioid addiction and talked about what withdrawal was like. What, you know, she sort of interviewed her and talked about. Please tell me anything and everything she watched videos. She does her research. She don't get me wrong. But I

don't know what to say other than it's just a natural ability. And you as the director, like what is your interface with her in terms of like how you're directing her, how you're nudging her to get the performance out of her that you want or need? Or do you just get out of the way? I think with people like her in Morgan, you just don't get

in the way. The way I think of it is, you know, we shoot everything out of order as you know. And so an actor, a good actor, a great actor is so focused in the moment in the scene. Just like you and I are talking here right now. Our job is to ignore that there's lights, look at each other and be present. And the best instruction

you can ever give a young actor is to genuinely listen. Because if I'm genuinely listening to your Rich, I am so in the moment in present. My brain is listening to you. It's like a meditation. I'm not thinking of the moving camera. I'm not thinking of the guy whispering in his walkie talkie. I'm with you. And so there in that moment, my job as the director

is to look at the macro of the whole film. I need to go, I wonder if Morgan is going to be able to do that. And then there's a little bit angry in the sequence of their evolution of their relationship. And it's always a question with a genius like that. You're like, do you think we should try one? Where you're not as angry here? Because we're

going to go ABCDFG. And what do you think? And normally someone like them will be like, that's smart. Let's try one like that. Other times they'll be like, no, no, I'm really feeling this because of these reasons. And you go, wait, wait, keep going. So I'm mostly staying out of the way. But I'm shaping up. Keeping it because like the conductor of an orchestra, I have

to see the whole piece. You're not going, think of it like Florence P. is like the best first violinist in the world. And I'm the conductor. I can't play violin like that. But I do know that at certain moments, she needs to be a little quieter. So I can hear the oboe. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And that's what my job is as

a filmmaker working with actors of that level. Yeah. Having that global awareness of where this puzzle piece fits in the broader picture of the movie and making sure that it's like a flow and keeping the tone cohesive. That's really important because a movie like this, which I should say off the bat because we've only talked about the heavy stuff also has a lot of humor in

it. So the director is also really in control of the tone. What movie are we all making? We have to make sure we're making the same movie. So there's other moments where you can go. That's a bit too broad a humorous moment for this movie. Or sometimes you try them and then go in the edit. I got to see that might not fit in this film.

When I say, I'm not going to be a movie. I just start to really strip away all the pieces of clay and find out what this movie is. That might be too broad. This might be too modeling. So you're kind of, you're the one in charge of the tone of the thing. Yeah. I feel like there is a bit of a tone arc in this movie

because it kind of opens with Morgan Freeman's voice over. And that he's, you know, the voice of a Mary. It's like that soothing voice and there's train sets and you're thinking, oh, there's something, you know, perhaps very homie or potentially on the negative side, maybe even too sappy. And then the movie kind of develops into this dark or terrain that it's exploring. But then Florence Puse

mom is Molly Shannon who can go super broad. Right. Like that could get too nutty. Yeah. Like if you're not making sure that that's properly calibrated. That's the right. That's the perfect. My job is as a filmmaker is to make sure we're all making the same movie. Yeah. Yeah. Like the Sony else is in another movie. Yeah. Well that happens. It's not the whole thing. Yeah.

You'll see that. The audience won't even know how to articulate it necessarily like that. But they'll go, why are these scenes off? It's because that character is in a different film. There's things I've loved. But every time there's a scene with X character, I go, this person's in a different piece. Right. It alienates me every single time. And that's the job of the director to make

sure to avoid that. Or make sure everyone's on the same page. I think so. And by the way, people might love it. It might just be my own personal. Squirm that I go, oh my goodness, this would be so much better if that character was in the same tone as the rest of this. Yeah. There's something about this movie also that feels a little bit kind

of out of time given the current kind of state of Hollywood. Like this is a very traditional indie movie in the Sundance tradition. You made it with killer films, right? Like the, you know, premiere production company for this type of movie. And in the era in which you came up in the Garden State Times, it was all about Sundance. Like that was the zeitgeist of the

culture and like launching an independent film into mainstream awareness. And, you know, that was something that, you know, the culture kind of invested in, right? There's a lot of energy around that. Now Hollywood is very different place. Completely different. And it changes every year. It's different from last year. It's like, I mean, my wife and giant, we went to go to the movies the other day

and we're like, what can we see? And we're like, these are the options, like 80 for Brady. Like, what are we going to, you know, like, I want to go to the movies. I want to be excited to go to the movies. There was nothing exciting. Right? A movie for you. Yes. I know. I'm getting to my point, which is that it has become rare and

rare that there is, you know, mature adult fair that deals with themes that, you know, appeal to someone like myself that find their way into the movie theaters. It's either Marvel DC, giant event picks, or the occasional, you know, outlier, like everything everywhere all at once. Yeah. But that's still, that's still a visual spectacle. So I would say it falls into visual spectacle. And horror, horror

is big still. Yeah, horror is predictable. Yeah. Because, but a movie like here is these movies don't end up in the movie theater. Like it's amazing that you figured out a way to get this movie in the movie theaters. That's why I'm praying that people go. I mean, I think you know, I'm not going to have a movie like a movie to go. How did that

happen? That's a great question. How did it happen? It happened because MGM so believed in the film that they said they were going to give it a theatrical release. Now mind you, this film was we shot in the fall of 2021. It was ready to come out end of 2022. But Florence had two other high profile films and it was a bit crowded of a marketplace.

So MGM held it until this spring, March 24. So in the meantime, I was the company was purchased by Amazon. Right. And so in my head, I'm terrified. I'm going to just put it right. Did I lose my pride? You know, if I say to other filmmakers, I have a theatrical release. They're like, what? Yeah. To your point. It's very rare. So these films even get

theatrical release anymore. So I was nervous that Amazon would just put it on streaming. But they believe in it too. So I think the response has been so positive that they're going to give it a run. It'll be on 500 screens on the first weekend, which for an indie is substantial. Mm-hmm. And then it's all about how it performs opening weekend. And that will dictate. Of

course. Every filmmaker is a future. I know you work here but off for so many years and blood, sweat and tears. And it all really comes down to if people show up the first weekend. Sure. And those numbers come in like Friday night. Right. Like there's an algorithm that predicts based upon the numbers on Friday night. How it's going to do. Sometimes those some past those

numbers like Creed really surpassed the algorithm. But yeah, based on all the decades and decades of data they have, although that should mostly be thrown out the window post COVID because all bets are off now post COVID. No one knows what's happening. But traditionally, there's an algorithm that says based on what's happening, you know, noon on Friday, we can predict what the weekend will be. But

sometimes they're off. You know, they were way off on Creed. Creed did like $20 million more than they thought. And so how do you balance your relationship with your relationship to, you know, the creative act of making something and shipping it to you, Seth Godin's term? Like you're putting this thing out into the world, which you should be very proud of. Like it's beautifully rendered. And

it's, you know, exquisitely performed and all of that. Like that exists, you know, as this kind of music box thing. And then there's the commerce piece and the public response to it. And all the kind of, you know, running around promoting it kind of stuff that you have. To do the external, you know, noise around it. Like how do you maintain your sanity in the way?

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know, man. Um, I, uh, you're right, though. And I've heard you speak about this with other people. And I really appreciated your perspective on it. Maybe your episode was Seth. One of your episodes was Seth Godin that I, maybe I'm thinking of, but that difference between being so proud of something. And yes, this is like your book. This

is 100% authentically me. Now it's up to the universe to decide its fate, whether people go to the theater, whether people respond to it or not. But how do you still hold on to good or bad that I'm proud of this thing that I put all of my, myself into? That is very tricky and hard. I don't really know the answer. Um, do you get caught

up and looking at the reviews and peaking at stuff that maybe you feel like, yeah, maybe I shouldn't look at that or, like, on off Twitter, thanks to you, uh, which was, I mean, I still will. No, it was your conversation with Seth, actually. You have no idea how much you really, and I mean, it's an all sincerity, how much, how, what a positive impact this

podcast has had on me. And I really want to thank you. And, and I'll, and I'll probably bring it up a few times as we chat. But one was Seth Godin saying, I have no interest in reading people day trading their emotions. And that really, really landed hard with me because I had a very unhealthy relationship with constantly reading Twitter. And I don't mean just stuff

that was about me. I just mean the, the negativity that I is the town of Twitter. Yeah. And I was obsessed with being in that town. And I'm someone who battles depression and anxiety. And like, I shouldn't be in that town. I'm too sensitive for that town. Like if it was a place I wouldn't go there. I'll of course say, like, Hey, here's my trailer. But

I don't obsessively read Twitter anymore. Yeah. In terms of reviews, I don't go down the rabbit hole and real reviews as a producer on the movie. And as a partner to MGM and these companies, I'll of course, know the gist. I'll know the tone, the tenor of the response. But I won't obsessively go down and read everything. I don't know. Did you do that with your

book? I don't. Yeah. But that was a while ago. Like now I have a very different relationship with all of that. At the beginning, I was very caught up in all of that. And now I really work hard to create a buffer between myself and all of that noise. And I don't get caught up in the conversations. And I unfollowed everybody on Twitter. So I still

have a Twitter account and like yourself, like all post stuff that's interesting or my own stuff. I don't go and scroll through like what people say about me or what everybody's saying about like the culture war subject of the moment or any of that's the stuff that really people day check their emotions. Yeah. Of course, reading something negative about myself on Twitter was not good for

my extraordinarily sensitive brain. But I'm not even really speaking about that. I'm just talking about the tenor of the conversation. I just think was really, really, really bad for my psyche. And another thing I got from you, I really should be your publicist was I forgot the name of the author, but the chaos machine. Max Fisher. That completely. Yeah. I hope you're I hope your listeners

and viewers get that book because I want to resell that book to you, because I got it off of your podcast. And that completely changed my relationship with social media. Yeah, it's I really needed to hear those words. And I'm a little bit on Instagram because I do enjoy pictures of things. But I'm not on Facebook. I'm not on Twitter. I'm not on YouTube. Obsess of

the that book was transformational for me. Yeah. He's doing God's work. He really is. And I wish more people knew about it. I found that on your podcast. But I was like, I'm just going to be this guy's publicist and talk about it everywhere. I go. I'm going to get me. Give everyone the book for the holidays. I'm sure. I'm happy to hear that. I don't

even have kids. Yeah. As a parent. Yeah. I feel like every parent should read that book because it is insane. What these corporations are doing to our minds that alone kids minds. I agreed. 100%. And as you're feeling and experiencing, and all of that noise is either like the best cases it's a distraction. The worst case is it starts to you know tamper down that voice.

Or you fall down. You can't express yourself authentically and honestly. And that's an ethical to like everything that you need to be about to do what it is that you do. Exactly. Or even worse rich, you start trying to chase what you think people want you to be. You start trying to chase creating something that is not in any way authentically you. But is something you

think will be better received by a studio, by an audience, by a movie theater chain, by a critic. That's not going to be good. That's like a band trying to write a hit album for the charts. Odds are, I mean obviously there's certain pop stars that have it dialed. They're all written in Stockholm and they talk about an algorithm for creating a hit. But if you're

trying to do something that is personal like your book or like my films, trying to mold them into something that is not you that is not honest that is not authentic is going to be a piece of shit because it's just a mess of something that it's like something AI created that doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Because you're so afraid of the cackle of the Twitter

community. And I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do something like that. I mean I'm going to say, you know, that's the last piece of that you want to say about the community that you're watering down your voice to make it non offensive. Or to make sure that you're adhering to a certain set of talking points and that you know will be approved

of by you know the community, you know, the online. But that's impossible. That's not sustainable. That's like the worst. But it's also it's not it's not something you could ever succeed in doing is pleasing everybody. Right. I think i them. Find people that feel like I do. And obviously you and I think alike because I love your podcast. And you liked my movie. So find people

of like minds who appreciate what you have to say and make something for them. Yeah. Don't try and I'm not trying to make a film for everyone. You couldn't. I couldn't. I don't know how. Yeah. We all have a band we absolutely love that some people say they hate. Sure. Right. It's like that. I mean, I'm so glad that co-play exists. Co-play is one of my

favorite bands. People have a whole cold play. I go to the concerts in the stadiums and saw that's funny. My friend Toby Morse who's been on the podcast before is like this hardcore like punk rocker straight edge, you know, fully covered in tats and comes from that kind of like DIY, you know, community of, you know, it's not about the money or whatever. But he's like

a super emo bleeding heart for like cold play. Like he just loves talking about cold play. Yeah. And it's kind of an anithetical to like this image of this like super touted up guy, you know, but it's like, there's something beautiful about that. And it's something that we talked about earlier, which is that. And this goes to kind of the discourse on social media, which is

that prioritizes or favors like cynicism and irony and negativity and judgment and scoring points for taking people down a peg. When in truth, like, earnestness and enthusiasm and like being a fan of something and not worrying about whether it's cool and just being confident in your own voice and expressing what you love, you know, the algorithm doesn't favor that. And that might not be approved of

or considered cool in like our current environment. But honestly, like, that's the stock and trade of, you know, the kind of person that I want to be around and the artists that I respect. Well, that's why I'm not going to be a fan of that. I'm drawn to your show because for me, what you're putting out there on the internet is positivity and curiosity and the

desire to learn and the desire to grow and the desire to be a better person. It's the antithesis of what I think is the tenor of so much of the internet, which is who can out snark whom. And I'm trying to turn that some of that off in my life. And that chaos machine book was like the perfect articulation of why. And fine. And things that

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awesome vegan protein, but their entire product collection. So go to livemomentus.com slash rich roll. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S.com slash rich roll and claim 20% off these incredible momentous products. So I take it on some level that the process of writing this movie provided some kind of therapeutic outlet for the confusing emotions that you were experiencing, the grief of your friend and your sister and your dad and all

of that and COVID and all of that. But what is the connection between your own mental health journey and the creative outlet of writing and directing stories that help you make sense of these things? I battled depression and anxiety my whole life. I had OCD pretty bad as a child. I think I found writing and performing as a way of dealing with that particularly humor. Making

people laugh was a high for me. I didn't play sports at all. I had no connection to sports. I didn't have to make friends. So I became because I was a funny kid. I became a class clown and that's how I made friends. And then when I was around 13 years old, my you know, I lived in East Coast and Jersey. Sleepy Wake Camp was very

popular. A lot of the kids would go to a traditional sleepy wake camp that was about sports. And I didn't shine and I felt alienated and I was like, what's wrong with me? I love performing. And my parents found me in a theater camp for me that was called Stage Door Manor and I went there and it was like a piffiness. It was utopia. It was

a place where everyone was a performer and everyone was like me. And I didn't know that there were other kids. That many kids out there like me. So just from an early age, the way I would manage anxiety and depression was creating art, whether it was as a performer or as a writer. I'm a very early memory of being in fifth grade and the teacher said,

we had to write a message. And who's going to get up in front of the class and read their essay and I did. And I had written other kids in the class into the essay and made a very funny essay. But the protagonist were kids in the class. And I got up there and they were belly laughing as I read it. And I remember clocking the

teacher in the back of the classroom holding her stomach and laughing. And I thought, this is probably the highest high I've had in my life so far. Yeah. Yeah. Like lights on any chance. This is a career runs career. Yeah. So that's a long-winded way of saying, oh, that's why I became a writer and a filmmaker. It was a way of trying to find shared community

with these feelings that I have. And to answer your other question about is it cathartic? It's most cathartic when I finally watch it with an audience. And I see their reaction. When they laugh at the right moment, when they swipe a tear at the right moment, when they're pin drop silent at the right moment, that's when I feel like, oh, I'm not alone in these emotions.

Yeah, it's an antidote to loneliness. Yeah. These emotions that I'm feeling are collective. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. That's the best. That's beautiful. That's better said than I could have said it. It's an antidote to loneliness. Yeah. So you went to like a public high school in New Jersey, but then you had this summer campus. Your dad was like a Greek-Arius charismatic guy. Yeah. He was a trial

theater. And that was your kind of original. He was a trial attorney who loved theater. So we were 45 minutes from the city in Jersey from Manhattan. So we would go see, and he was a lawyer. So he could afford, I was very lucky. He could afford to bring us to the theater. And I loved musicals as a kid. And he loved them. And then he

got into community theater. You know, he would be the star of the local play because he was so charming and an end of very good actor. I mean, it could have been an actor. And that's kind of was, you know, another reason I got my, that's how I ended up at theater campus because he was wetting my palate with the local theater and with Broadway. And

you know, that's how it all began. And that was kind of the theater camp that you went to was like, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. Like a legit, yeah, it's the real primo theater camp, right? Yeah. He came out like some other names came out of that. Well, now the Portman and Robert Dutton Jr. and just a few. Just

a couple. There's lots. Josh Charles, many more. There's a big, big names. And by the way, a ton that are working actors who aren't famous. Yeah. A ton of theater and people you see all the time, but you might not know their name. I mean, you know, if you were a young kid and you wanted to pursue this, this is where you went. This wasn't, this

isn't just as my father said kind of with a little bit of a laugh. He said, I guess you don't need to bring a mint. Yeah. Right. But these are your people. Like you realize early on immediately. Like, oh, this is my lane. This is my community. I relate to these people. I can be, you know, I can like sort of stand out here and like

be myself. And I don't have to wear the mask that I feel like I have to wear when I go to high school when it was time. Yeah. I really, I was, I really, I really can't express to you how much it felt like going to Utopia for six weeks and then being pulled out to go back to what I dreaded. Uh-huh. So it was traumatic

in a weird way because I had found what I thought was heaven on earth. But there's something really amazing, rare and beautiful about discovering editing. And early age, like what it is that you wanted. Yeah. Like that, that is something that, you know, is not, it's not a normal experience. Like most people, I feel like, you know, the pressure that's on, you know, the typical 18

year old when they head off to college or whatever they're supposed to know what they want to do with their life. Like most people don't like that rare occasion where you're like, oh, this is the thing that I'm going to be doing. You know, it's like there's something amazing about that. I feel very lucky about that. I know that people struggle for, you know, for years

to find out what they're calling is. I do feel very lucky that I knew it. It's such a young age. Yeah. I think I'm starting to figure it out. I think you've got a couple things to really good at, man. I was at least, I don't know, mid 40s before I figured it out. But anyway. Um, and I think people, you know, they know you from

scrubs, they know you from Garden State. They'll know you even more from this movie and, and you've done, you know, lots of things over the years. But you kind of like, you know, hit it hard early on. Yeah. Like your early years. Like I feel like that's kind of an under reported aspect of your career. Like, yeah, I had begin to get in casting like a

Woody Allen movie when you were like 18 and then also the public. Like, you know, you be you're doing Shakespeare at the public. Yeah. How will we then? So my very first part, I got 14 was a pilot for CBS that didn't get picked up. And then I kind of that was the Bruce Paltrow. Yeah. Bruce Paltrow. We created, um, scene elsewhere. Um, and it was,

Grennith's father and it was her first part too. Um, she was a stunning 17 year old. And I was sort of a nerdy 14 year old. And she played the beautiful cheerleader. And I played the nerdy freshman. It was about a public school. Same year 902. Biva has 902. And I was Bruce Paltrow sort of gritty answer to 902. And this is going to be the

dark side. Right. Anyway, the show can even get picked up today. And this was, this was when I was 14 years old. It was really gritty. It was bold. It was held. Maybe I'm streaming. I don't know. But it didn't go anywhere. Um, it was too rated for, for CBS certainly. And then my, you know, I auditioned. I auditioned for lots of things. And then it

wasn't until I was 18. I got in Northwestern to go to film school. And right before I was about to go, I got cast in Manhattan murder mystery Woody Allen's film with Dianne Keaton. My first scene in a movie is, I'm only in one scene in the movie. But my scene partners are Woody Allen Dianne Keaton and Angelica Houston. And I'm 18 years old. And I'm

playing. And you were kind of raised on Woody Allen. Yeah. I mean, now, now it's a, it's, uh, it's, it's right. I'm gonna talk about Woody Allen. But I do have to say the truth, which is without glorifying Woody Allen. The truth is that I was raised on Woody Allen. He was my father's favorite. Um, you know, he was speaking to, to my parents. They loved

it. He was their target demo. And so all of those films were very influential in my, in my life. And then there I was playing. You know, Annie Hall was their favorite movie. And there I was playing Dianne Keaton and Woody Allen's son. It was, it was really surreal moment. And then I was sort of thought like, well, do I, you know, this is a big

thing. Do I stay with this and, and not go off to Northwestern and study film? And, um, but then I, I chose that. I said, I want to go, I want to really learn how to make movies. And so that's what I did. That took a lot of courage. I think I think most people probably would have thought, Hey, I'm on my way. Like why should

I get off this train? I might not be able to get back to God in New York at the time. And we're talking about 93 being an 18 year old who had just landed the part of Woody Allen Dianne Keaton's son. Uh, that was a huge, yeah, moment. Right. And I did not, because being cast in a Woody Allen movie at that time, you're sort of

being annoyed at. Yes. You, you're anointed. And then I, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't write that wave at all. I just disappeared. Right. Um, and then I came back, um, after Northwestern, and I had a wonderful Shakespeare teacher, um, I was in film school, but I talked my way in even acting class. They, Northwestern at the time separated the two schools, but I

talked my way in in an acting class. And I had a wonderful, uh, acting teacher. And one of the things he really introduced me to and explained to me and gave me the distinctions for with Shakespeare. And I understood it for the first time in my life through this incredible professor named David Downs. And the very first thing I got out of Northwestern was, uh, in

a production of McBeth, 300 seat house, uh, at the public theater. So that was my first job out of college. It's bananas. And it was crazy. And I had a front row seat to watch these incredible actors, particularly the Ebb Shriver, who I, who I will say it. And I know, you know, for those who know New York theater, he's probably the dude. He's the finest.

And you, I, I believe he's probably the finest American Shakespeare actor than there is. So I got right out of school. And I don't mean to diminish anybody else, but Lea has particularly gifted. I got to have a front row seat watching Lea Shriver do Shakespeare. And that was like life changing. And that was like grad school. Right. I would imagine also terrifying. Absolutely. He's a

pretty intimidating. Yeah. Presence that he is. And I was playing two parts, uh, young, soored and flea aunts and flea aunts is fancoo Leo's character son. So I was in awe of him, but also, uh, but definitely certainly intimidated by him because he's, he's a very strong presence. Yeah. So you go to Northwestern to study filmmaking, you come out and you're doing stage acting and you

have all these acting opportunities that are not necessarily filmmaking opportunities. But the world is kind of like opening up to you pretty quickly. And, and not for nothing like Northwestern, like incredible program. I mean, who, so you must have been, and like that era was like was Seth Myers there when you were there. Yeah. Yeah. Was there. Uh-huh. Richie Keane. Do you know? Richie. Yeah. How

do you know? Richie Keane? Yeah. Yeah. I love Richie. Yeah. One of my great buddies. I've, like, we could talk about that later, but I love Richie. Lots of people, uh, Catherine Hahn, who's an incredible actress, um, and really gaining traction. There were so many really, really talented people. And again, people that are working in our brilliant, but not necessarily household names. Yeah. So, at some

point, you find your way to Los Angeles though. Like, how does that happen? So it's funny. I was, I was in New York. I was, this is the height of the music video era. Right. So I mean, this is 1998. The food she's made a video for, like, $7 million. It was like, it was like the day. This is the era. You know, this is like

spice girl, Mariah Carey. This was like the apex of the music video time. People were spending a fortune. I was peeing on those because I didn't want to take features as a PA because that would lock me up and not, let me be free to audition. So a PA on a commercial was kind of the perfect, or music video was the perfect job for me because

I could. Do three, four days, make a little bit of money and then be free to go on auditions. So that was kind of my system. Then I finally got an indie called you can count on me. That went to Sundance. That was like a big break. And then I got another one called the Broken Hearts Club, which was Greg Berlani's very first film. And then

that went to Sundance. I went to Sundance two years in a row. So I was kind of starting to get momentum with Timothy Ollathon. Yeah, yeah. Timothy Ollathon, Billy Porter, Dean Kane, all sorts of wonderful actors. And then I was waiting, but I came out here. I had no money. I followed a girl. I used to, I was dating a young woman and I sort of

used that as a, as the, as the impetus, but the truth was I knew this was back in the day where if you were auditioning in New York, they were fed Xing of VHS tape. Right. That's how we were trying to compete. Yeah. Now if you're the director of a movie, Rich and I come in here to audition, we're going to shoot the shed a little

bit. We're going to get to know each other. We're going to have a little bit of a bond. And then I'm going to launch into my audition. And then you're going to be able to say, I like that. Can you try it? Bring it down a little bit and give me some notes. And then we're going to go again. Now that's how the actors in LA

were auditioning. Then you'd go home and you'd have a stack of 40 VHS tapes that have been sent from all over the country. You're going to barely watch them. You're going to fast forward them. So I knew that if I was going to seriously compete, I had to come out to LA. So I did my parents loan me five thousand dollars. Two by a car. I

bought a Nissan 240 SX manual. And I got a job at a French Vietnamese restaurant, which was a called La Colonia. It's no longer there, but it was in Beverly Hills at the corner of Beverly and Robertson. That place had a moment. Oh, did it. That was the spot. I was there. So you were a waiter there. It was a waiter there. It's now a like

a store, which is bizarre because I like a store, but 2000, that's like 2002, like that around two. It eventually closed down because it was meant to be a restaurant, but it became such a hot spot. It was, it was, it was basically a nightclub. The, the neighborhood said, yeah, this is not what we give a permit for. And it was also, I don't know if

you know this, well, you work there, but it was kind of, it became like a, like a sober hangout at night. It was that there was one night. It was a like Monday. Night was the night. And like we would all go and hang out at La Colonia. Yeah, I knew that. Like 2000. I threw a party there. We served a lot of coffee that you

know. Yeah. Anyway, I remember that. It was cool. Like that was the scene. There was a scene. I'm going to have mine right now. You ready? So I had to wear a tunic and the opening sequence of Garden State, where my character is working at a French Vietnamese restaurant is all inspired by my experience working at La Colonia. I think I knew that. Yeah. Yeah. No,

no, no, no, no, no, it's, yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. That's wild. Man. That's wild. So, so things had stalled a bit. And I, and I was a waiter and I was, I was happy to be making money as a waiter, but I was not having any track. All the traction I had had in New York was gone. And I was just, I couldn't get

arrested here. And I started to get really insecure about it. Maybe I came out here too fast. Maybe I, I should go back to New York where I had momentum. I was doubting everything. And my agent said, you're panicking. Don't panic. Go through one more pilot season. This is back in the day when auditioning for pilots was actually the beginning of the year. It was like

January to April was pilot season. And I did. And my first audition of that pilot season was for scrubs. It's amazing. Little did you know that that would go on for how many years, nine years? Nine years? Yeah. I mean, huge show. And, you know, and thinking, thinking about that, like in thinking about your career as like an independent writer, director, and also as like a

network television actor, you forge your career along two kind of traditional paths. Like one, you become an actor in like a big network sitcom. And it's all about syndication. Like after a certain number of episodes or whatever, like it just becomes like, you know, financial, you know, windfall, right? That allows you to the opportunity to learn. Like do whatever you want. That's kind of like no

longer. I guess maybe the syndication even still exists. Not really. No, not a nutritional sense. And then the idea of like being an independent filmmaker and going to Sundance and like making a splash and becoming the new hot thing. I guess like, I mean, Sundance is still there. It's not what it used to be. Everything's kind of shifted. It's not what it was in. No, of

course not. Like so we year there. Ninety four and I do like one. You know, my early years and then I entered 99 in 2000. But then in its prime, I have forgotten state in 2004, I believe. And that was still the era of like Sunday. That was like a there was like a bidding war. Yeah. And it was, I'm sorry to mention another controversial name.

But at the time, your fantasy, what you read about in all the books was that your cell phone ring. And it would be Harvey Weinstein. And he wanted your movies all about Miramax. And it was, you know, I had been reading these books. Like you know, you're a success when your phone rings and it's Harvey Weinstein and they want your movie. And that's what happened to

me. They released it internationally and Fox Searchlight released it domestically. But that was the very first screenplay I'd ever written. And when I got scrubs, I thought I was so thrilled. Obviously. But then I, my second thought was, oh, this is going to help me get my movie main. Uh-huh. That's the instinct of a real filmmaker though. Right. Yeah. It's funny. I look back now. I

sent my DP. I was like, uh, from the movie, he was now becoming Oscar nominated, uh, cinematographer Larry Sher, shot the Joker and as a little other thing. But he's a brilliant guy. He shot Garden State. And I found an old picture of us. And I sent it to him. And he goes, we were so young. And I said, we didn't know. We didn't know. Because

I had such a Hutzpah. I didn't know so much that I was that I just had so much drive. I was like, I'm going to get this made. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't know that not getting 2526. Yeah. When Garden State happened. Yeah. And I was like, I'm going to get this high profile sitcom. You make, you brought your first green play. You make this movie.

You make it with Natalie Portman. It's a huge success. Everyone's talking about it. Like that's vertigo inducing for, you know, a young man. Right. Like how did you process all of that success? Um, I think it takes, it's takes looking back on it to see, wow, what a crazy time. It was definitely, um, a whirlwind. And I think I instantly had terror of trying to duplicate

it. Right. Then it's like, how am I ever going to top this? How am I ever going to top it? And then you're sort of chasing it because I don't, it was lightning in a bottle. I don't know how, you know, it's the classic sophomore album thing. Or sophomore book, or sophomore movie where it's, you know, people are like, he like, it's like, a, a, a

band will release an album and, and it's time to write the sophomore album. They spent their whole life writing the first album. Right. Um, my first screenplay was, I didn't spend my whole life writing it, but it was certainly everything I'd been brainstorming on since I'd gone to film school and, and wanted, and dreamt of creating. And then it was like, oh, I always admired Damian

Chisel, uh, because Wiplash was a huge hit. And then he had he had a bunch of other things locked and loaded. Yeah. And I didn't, uh, so I took work as an actor and films that some were good, some were bad. There was interest in me directing huge things, but I, but I was also keeping my, I was also doing the show for, yeah, I was

contractually obligated to keep doing the show for a very long time. So any of these other things could only happen during your briefly. Yeah. So I would sometimes, once I set up a movie, I once set up a movie that I had adapted from a, a Danish film I loved and it was literally, uh, Sean Penn was attached to starring it and it was all about

to happen. And, and then if we didn't start by a certain date, it couldn't make the movie because I had to go back to scrubs and, you know, it was very, very hard to get anything made. And of course, we didn't hit the date and the whole thing, right? Right. Fell apart. Right. So, um, I had years of sort of, um, feeling like I fucked everything

up, because I, I didn't, it was such a, it was such a beginner's luck kind of situation where I didn't really know how to, uh, recapture it. Mm-hmm. And also I was, it was very hard for me to write because I was, maybe you might feel that way if you've written, I think I've heard you say this on the podcast that when you've had such a

successful book, you're like, how do I, you get blocked? Yeah. How do I, I don't know, I don't know how to begin to try and top that. I didn't think anyone was going to see this fucking movie. I thought my parents and like, the temple choir would go. Yeah. And it becomes this thing. You become a victim of your own success and the pressures that, you

know, suddenly, but fall you, I mean, you do move forward. I mean, I feel like the second movie got overshadowed by the whole crowdfunding. Yeah. I stepped in that like surrounded all of that. Yeah. Which is weird. I feel like if somebody were to pursue that kind of fundraising for their film now, it would be a very different response than what I don't know. I definitely

did not intend to become the face of that. I was, I've always been interested in like new things. And, um, and, uh, you know, Kevin Smith is the one who turned me on to my space. He's like, you got to try this thing. My space. It's so awesome. You can talk to your fans and have a discourse with them. And I'm like, really? So I've always

been to like, uh, you know, and I wrote a blog. He's the one who said you should write a blog. You're a writer. You should, you know, best I'll back in the day. I was like, well, I'm not going to write a blog. I was like writing a blog. He was the first one to do a podcast too. I mean, that guy's been at the front

end of like a lot of stuff before my space, even I was writing. I had a, on my, on Zach graph.com, I wrote a blog. I would write a blog. And he's the one who taught me all about like interacting with your fans and developing your fan base. And it's so cool. If you're a writer, you can have like a daily conversation with your fans. I

was like, what? So I was kind of always interested in the new thing in that particular thing. And it just so, it just so hit people the wrong way. And, um, you're right. I, I do agree that it hurt the film badly. And, and my, my, my home, hope is that one day, um, you know, people will revisit Cameron Crowe told me that. And he's like,

he'd really liked that movie. And he was very supportive of that movie. And he said, I think there's going to be a day. I don't know when it is. He said, but I think there's going to be a day where people revisit that film and see it in a different line. Well, I can't remember where I heard you tell the story, but Larry David, like he

smiled, smiled upon it. Right. It's funny. If you, if you've made a bunch of things, anyone listening or, or anyone who's an artist and knows this, there are certain things you do that are, that people like, and there's certain things you do people don't, but you, you, you have a certain soft spot in your heart for things that didn't work, that you go, it's a nail

in my heart a little bit. Yeah. Cause that film was really personal and, and, and, and very hard to make. And it was about the fear of losing my father and my brother and I wrote it together. My brother Adam and I wrote it together. Every once in a while, someone will come up to me and the, and of all things I've done, and I've done

a lot now, 47 years old, someone will come up to me and say, Hey, I just want to say, and the film we're talking about is called, I wish I was here. Wish I was here was a really important film for me. And, and, and for me, it's like that, they're, they're complimenting my child that's underappreciated. And so one of those was Larry David. I was

in a restaurant and Larry David came out to me and I was, I was just totally still. And he said, this movie, uh, wish I was here. You wrote that. Like, like he was shocked. Surprise. No, he was totally shocked. And coming from hand, who I love of all people. I was like, yeah, he goes. That's a really well written. So on behalf of my, I

mean, come on, right? Like that was pretty cool. Yeah. So I'm hoping I'm hoping one day people see it. You know, it's that it's still have hope for it. It's that Seth Godin thing though. Like you said earlier, like what you put out in the world shouldn't be for everybody. And, you know, to the extent that it connects with a certain kind of person. Like that's

why you're doing it. Isn't that what Godin said? He's like, I'm not making Coke. I'm not making Pepsi. I'm not making Doritos. He said something like that. Like, like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to make something that is, uh, is, is certainly most certainly not for everyone. But when you find the people, whether it's you or Larry David or the people that are, are my fans,

um, I'm hopefully making something they can relate to. If you are truly desiring of mastering your plate, but you feel like you lack the skill in the kitchen or the time or the culinary acumen, you believe you require, I can't stress enough how much our plant power meal planner can help you out. It truly is an extraordinary product. I'm so proud of we worked very hard

on to solve a very basic problem, making nutritious eating convenience. So to learn more and to sign up, go to meals dot ritual dot com or click on meal planner on the top menu on my website. So you've done a ton of directing and television to Lasso and now shrinking, like working with Harrison Ford and Jason Segal was just super cool. But it's been a number

of years since you wrote directed your own film, right? Yeah. So like, why did that take so long? And, and then kind of maybe second to that. Like, what is the creative process? Is it just, you know, you finally realize like you have a story to tell and then there's a mad rush and you get it done? Or like, what does that look like for you?

I bat a little a lot. I mean, I liked your conversation about the War of Art and getting your ass in the chair and staring at the, the, the blinking cursor and you just have to sit there. It's so easy now to procrastinate. And, um, I think the pandemic in this case really made me run out of excuses. Not only was all of this you know

what it feels like when you, when you have something to say, it's kind of gurgling up. It's kind of like, it's kind of like when you have to puke for lack of a better analogy. You used, it's there. And you know, you, you know, you have to sit at the keyboard. If you can just get your butt in the chair to do it. And I felt

that during the pandemic, I felt like I had something to say. And I didn't know if it was going to be good. I knew I wanted to write it for Florence because I wanted, I was an awe of her talent. And, um, and so I just sat down. During the pandemic and it, it, it, it, it, some of it came fast and, and, and easy and

some of it didn't. But that's what it is. It's showing up. It's the War of Art story. It's putting your button in the chair. I can procrastinate like anybody. I, and I look back and, um, at years of, of procrastination. I directed a big studio comedy called Going and Stop, which was fun. You know, it was fun to have a budget and it was fun to

direct, you know, Michael Cain and, and Morgan Freeman and Alan Arkin. But, and it was awesome. I would, I would do a big fun studio comedy again. It's just it wasn't, um, it certainly wasn't me. It wasn't authentically, uh, something from my brain and my heart. So, uh, it's a, it's a, art, I find it very hard. It was two things, right? I, I don't want

to say I find it hard because that feels like it's justifying it and speaking into, into existence and, and words have power. So I just want to, let me just say that I have in the past done everything I possibly kind of procrastinate. And I aspire going forward to be more disciplined with putting my button in the chair. Right. So when you get the call, like,

Hey, we'd love for you to come down and direct this episode of Ted Lasso or this episode of shrinking. You can arrive on set and you get to work with like these amazing actors and bring your lens, your specific unique creativity to that process and, and kind of nudge it in the direction of your sensibility a little bit. But these are big machines. Yeah. But they

pay well and it's great. And you're like, look at my career. I'm doing good. But ultimately in the way that like this podcast is a distraction from me writing another book, those things are distractions from you being the writer director who creates your own movies from, well, I wouldn't use Lasso in shrinking as examples because, first of all, they're very short commitments relative. Uh, you know,

it's basically a six day shoot and a two week prep for a half hour episode of television. That's three weeks of like, I don't really have to sit down and write. No, because I'm doing this. I do find it very fulfilling. I don't want to. I'm not going to be director for hire. First of all, in the case of Lasso, I was it was it was

episode two, the episode of the biscuits. It was it was a really amazing opportunity to help set the whole tone of the show. So I was really honored that I got that slot because it was episode two of Ted Lasso kind of introduces the audience to like, Oh, this is also going to break your heart. This show. And then my episode of shrinking, just aired was

also sort of a seminal episode of season one. Um, so for me, I really love doing it. I think those can coexist. It's really what I'm talking about is, you know, being on the internet, taking up 10 hobbies, uh, doing things that are anything to distract from what I feel like I should be doing, which is writing films and also keep in mind, when you write

a film, it's then a huge process to try and get it made. Then you shoot it and you cut it, then you have to wait. In this case, I waited so long for it to finally come out. And it's finally coming out. Um, Marge, right. Cause you finish this thing. Yeah. As you mentioned, like a year and a half ago or something. Yeah. So this by

my point is there's a lot of downtime that a, yes, my first priority, I believe, um, if I'm, if I'm being true to myself, should be writing. But in terms of, I don't want to go direct TV. I don't believe in. But in terms of directing things that are my taste and that I love, I enjoy doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it, it's, it's it

is creatively nourishing. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I'm getting to make Harrison Ford, uh, helping him be his hilarious self. It's crazy. I've only watched the first episode of Shurink. So you're, you're, you're like Episode eight or something like that. I'm Episode eight. But it's really, I gotta tell you, I know I'm biased, but I'm only a little biased because all I did was direct Episode

eight. I have no connection to the show other than that. And the show is wonderful. And I think you'll really like it, Rich, because it overlaps with a lot of things that I think you're interested in. Yeah. Yeah. The mental health. Yeah. Um, it is funny to see Harrison Ford in a comedy. He's hilarious. And what's crazy about that guy is that. I thought he was

like this sort of, you know, kind of crusty rascal who didn't really want to work anymore and, and it was sort of sailing off into the sunset. And suddenly he's in like everything. Guys like working more than he's ever worked in his entire life. I think he loves working. I think he loves flying and he loves working. He loves flying. But I got to keep him

out of that plane and, and no one's gonna keep him out of the golf courses. Well, in his defense, that's a glass half full glass F empty conversation. I would say he lost an engine in a plane and successfully landed on golf course. Yeah. I have a friend who's in your pilot. Yeah. Right. So I have a friend, a good friend who's a pilot. And he

was flying over the desert just a couple of weeks ago and had an engine. This is something that happens. When you You make jokes with Harrison Ford flying. And I'm like, the guy landed a plane on a golf course. How about applaud him? Right. Um, but you must have like those moments of, is this real? Like, you know, Harrison, it's crazy, right. Yeah. Especially when he

says my name. Uh, that one's really tricky because, uh, I, you know, there's still people I geek out about and when Harrison, a, you know, first got to know him. He, he didn't, I don't think he knew my name, but then when he learned my name and was calling me by my name, it was pretty, the little kid of me was pretty good. Right. So over

the years, uh, you've worked with Deniro, like Tommy Lee Jones, right? Michael Cain, like some of the, some of the greats, right? Like what do you learn from? Like what makes those people so good? Are there commonalities? Are there themes across, you know, these people that we revere for this thing that they do, that we can learn from? I think courage, real, uh, courage to go

all out without a net and, and, and, and, and trust that the filmmaker is going to be their safety net and, and, and make sure that it works. I would say all of those people show up and are present and go all out and sometimes even them, these legends, sometimes it's too much. Sometimes it's too little. Sometimes it's not right. That's one of the things I

really learned is it's not always, even the geniuses, it's not always right, but they're trying things and they're playing and they, and they're exploring and they're, they're looking for it. Just like a painter who keeps painting over their, their, their painting, their, their, their hunting for it. And, um, and with, with real, uh, courage. So I, I think that's one thing I've really taken from the

great masters of how to chance to work with them. And as the director, your job is just to kind of like calibrate those choices and kind of get them in the line in, in the, in the kind of lane of the tone of the film. Absolutely. And it depends on the actor. Some will, I've worked with some, I won't say specific things, but I worked with

one legend. Who do one take like right in the zone where I wanted it? And then he'd do one minuscule and then he'd do one huge and you were like, what the fuck is that? Yeah. He's giving you choices. But he's, but he's, but he's not giving me choices, but he's kind of playing himself and trying, I mean, playing with it himself to try and figure

out what's right. Mm hmm. And then there are other great masters who are like, there was one take. That was it. I know I'm me. That was great. Right. And you're like, whoa, slow down. Yeah. And then you as the director have to be able to like have a hard conversation with somebody that you're like, I'm really going to like, you know, step by up to

this dude. Do you know, many times in a trailer, Rich, I have given myself pep talks in the mirror of a trailer, meaning like you have to have balls, right? Like whether it's acting with Deniro, I was, I was, I was, as co-star, this movie hasn't come out yet, but it's, it's, uh, it's a comedy with Deniro and I'm his co-star. And I, I was like,

this is the moment you've been waiting for. If you are a, a wimp in this scene and don't go all out and don't go toe to toe with Deniro, you know, I had this scene where I'm screaming at him and it's a, it's a comedy, but it's, I'm screaming at him. And the same thing with Morgan Freeman, it's like, if Morgan's over it and you haven't

gotten it, you have to be brave. You have to not be a wimp. You have to not be intimidated. So I definitely get myself these pep talks in the mirror in the trailer. I can't even imagine this wild man. When you're sitting down to write, like, do you have a routine? Like, okay, these are the hours that I do it. Or do you just strike when

the inspiration hits or, you know, how do you like, I'm just thinking I'm about like the conversation that I had with Robert McKee, like everything structure. So, yeah, do you have characters? You start with character. Do you start with plot? Like, how do you figure out these stories? I really want to take Robert McKee's class, by the way, because I've never done. Now, I know, but

there's a video. I let's do a master class. Why don't we after your, he should do a master class. But after your, your podcast with him, I went on his site and there's, there is something in April. Maybe it's pre-recorded. I don't know. But, um, it's definitely a, but I really, even though he bummed me out a lot of his stuff, when he said, when he

said, he's gonna be like ballet. Yeah. I was like, ballet. I was like, Rich, I was like, I text it. It's all up to you though. Like, if, if a good person succeeds, then there's hope. Exactly. Well, I'm trying. I hope people go. I please don't make the theatrical experience like ballet. Yeah. That's what Robert McKee said. But, um, I never, I've never written like that.

I think that that's very helpful to a lot of people. And I, I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I I love to take a class because I've never had a class like that. And

I think I would get a lot out of it. But it's not the way I write at all, because I have to see, I kind of see the way I write, and I don't know if this is unique to me or maybe other actor writers write like this, but I kind of improvise the scenes out loud to myself. And then I write them as I go.

So I kind of get into character as each person in the scene, and then improvise the conversation. And then write as I go. So you're writing dialogue from the gikgo as opposed to just conceptualizing like the arc of a story. Absolutely. In Garden State, I completely change the ending. I mean, Tarantino talks about that. He's like, I just keep going. And then I figure out the

ending because I'm just following these people and what they would do next. I agree with that school of thought from that great master. I really kind of write a scene. And when it works. And again, I have a vague idea where I want to go. But I want it works. I go, well, then what would happen? Now, I'm not always ready to write that scene. I

might go, oh, what's probably going to happen is there are next interior cafe. So and so and so and so we're going to have an argument. I might just write that and not be ready to write that dialogue. But then I'll go. And then what would happen? Well, she's going to have to go confront her father. I'm ready to write that one. I have some ideas

for that. So that one, I'll just do a messy first, you know, like throwing paint up on the campus. It's not always all great. But it's just blah. You're self getting it out there. If you're not sitting there doing that. Yeah, you need to get this stuff out so that all of a sudden you're going to write, you know, some scenes in Garden State were just

first passes. I never touched them again because I was in a good flow state and something really meaningful came out. Same thing with a good person. But then of course, of course, there's tons of scenes you toss. And you're like, I don't agree with Robert Kees. He said he was saying that like 90% of it he throws away. I definitely I'll do that. Yeah. What was

interesting and in watching a good person was that there were multiple occasions where, you know, the characters arrive at a certain point. And there's a very kind of predictable thing that you're primed to expect to happen because you've seen it in movies before, right? And then, and then you would make a different choice. Like it would be like, oh, this is where this is this person's

going to do this. And then actually they do this other thing. And you're like, oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. We're going to go in a different. We're going to go somewhere new with this thing that defies like that trope. Well, that's the highest common. Yeah. Thank you. I think that, you know, even as a writer, you find yourself going, we've all seen so many movies, right? So

your brain starts to go, yeah, go here. And you can't help, but because we're all conditioned from watching, you know, 47 years or whatever, how old you are, we have a movies. And there's certain things about those tropes. They're tropes because there's aspects of them that work, right? And we were chatting before it. Like when the person is sitting in the A meeting, like this is

the moment for exposition, like you kind of need that, or like that serves a purpose, right? But how do you do something different with that? But also without giving any spoilers. The way I do it is it might be a time A, A share might be a good moment for exposition. But it's also a moment to throw a fucking loop at the audience and do a

reveal that they're certainly not expecting. Yeah. Which is what happens. Yeah. There's there's a bunch of those in there. But there are certain things that, you know, one thing about the Robert McKee thing that I really do believe and follow is that everything you've ever watched at 30 minutes in, we enter the new world. Because this is something that audiences are completely conditioned to expect. And

if you can any movie you're watching, I mean, obviously there's exceptions. But 99% of films that you watch at 30 minutes in, we enter the new thing. So the first 30 minutes have been setting up. This is the way things are. This is the status quo. There's an inciting incident all the world. And then, at 30 minutes in, especially a studio movie, you can check your

watch. It'll be 30 minutes. The new thing begins. But the inciting incident is usually at like 10 minutes, right? That's all that can vary. But one thing's for certain. They set off on the new thing at 30 minutes. Right. And that's an example of something that if you go and test a film and you're not doing that, an audience won't notice exactly how to articulate it.

But they will say like it felt slow. And what they're saying is you didn't start the new thing. At 30 minutes, because everything I've ever watched starts with the thing at 30 minutes. So you have this unconscious expectation. And if that's not met, you feel like, oh, this isn't working. But you don't even know. Like the average. It doesn't even really quite like song structure. You

know, when like, like it's going to have a bridge. It's going to do verse course, verse course, verse chorus bridge, verse chorus or something like that. I'm not a songwriter. So I don't know. But audiences, like listeners know that that's how most songs are. Right. And I think audiences know like, you know, the hero's journey. Sure. But general sense of the traditional arc of a film.

So you have to, you don't have to do anything. But people are conditioned to be used to some rough form of that. Yeah. It's, uh, it's, in saying like you don't have to do that. Like it reminds me of adaptation. Like the sort of internal tension and battle between the identical twins, which of course, it's a multiple personality movie, right? Like, yeah. Charlie Kaufman is at

war with himself because on the one hand, and Mickey said this from his experience with him, he wants to be the artist, but he also wants to write the blockbuster to write the blockbuster. You have to follow this sort of semi formulaic thing where you're meeting these expectations. But how do you express and explore art within that? And it's those two things budding up against each

other. And when you find that right, you know, when you can make those things work together is when you create something, you know, kind of amazing and unique. Yeah. Like adaptation, right. Um, the rare thing that is both artful and accessible enough for enough people to justify it being in the theater is the sweet spot, right? Because so many of these films that are a wardsie

or, or really boutique a niche audience, they aren't necessarily accessible to, to a, uh, enough people in 2023 to justify it being in things. And it's a theatrical experience because it's not commercial enough. Yeah. And it's a weird conundrum because there's never been more avenues and opportunities for filmmakers with the streamers, right? There's just so much content out there and so much creativity that it's almost

challenging as a consumer. Like, what do I watch next? Like there's a lot of amazing shit out there. And yet the funnel towards like a theatrical release has never been narrower. And I think that's what I'm saying. It's very, very hard to get a theatrical release these days, particularly for something that's not spectacle. Yeah. Another thing I got out of your set, go in episode was

his thing about you have to give the audiences the why. Why go to the theater for this? You know, it's obvious when it's, when it's spectacle, oh, I want to see that on a big screen. Or if it's the whale with Brennan Frazier, the why is, oh, I'm excited for Brennan Frazier's comeback. And I want to root for Brennan Frazier. I want to go see that.

And I think the why for a good person is that not only is it a really special thing to see. This extraordinary, Aja knew Florence Pue go toe to toe with this legend Morgan Freeman, but I really believe in it's probably because of my love of the theater. I still go to the theater in New York all the time. But there's something that is very lost,

seeing something emotional and immersive alone at home. There's something really beautiful about sharing that experience with strangers in a room. And the laughter that happens, the pin drop silence that we experience, the sniffles we hear when there's an emotional moment. I still really long for that experience. And I hope there's enough people that that still do because it certainly is rare and rare these days. Yeah.

Well, I, you know, was not prepared to be emotional, but it did. I mean, it cuts close to home because of my own. It's very different from my story, but it explores certain terrain that I'm familiar with. And, and, you know, I found myself, you know, definitely emotional watching it. Like, and I think there is something about that shared experience that is special. And I think

the power in it, not to kind of like harp on this again, but the power in it for me is that, yes, there's an arc and there's a three extra in all of that. But it's not all tied up in a nice little bow. Like it really does show. We do like how gnarly and messy and confusing this process of grappling with grief and, and, you

know, just, just how fucking hard it is to be a human and to come to terms with like difficult emotions that all of us face like we may not all be in the extreme situation of being in a car accident or, you know, having an opioid addiction or whatever it is, but, you know, you don't get out of this life alive. And we all face fucking

crazy bullshit. And, you know, I think it's just a very, very sad thing to do. And obstacles like life doesn't go the way that we plan it to go, which is really the narrative of the show. It's like there's kind of a beautiful sort of trajectory lined up for these characters and then everything goes sideways goes haywire. And, you know, I think most people like experience

some version of that in their lives and then have to grapple with how to, you know, get right with themselves, make peace with it and move forward in a healthy way. And we do, we don't do this elegantly. Like this is not how to clean process for anybody. And I feel like the movie, you know, appreciated that nuance of the human condition. Well, thank you very

much. And I wanted the audience to see themselves in the characters. Like you just said very articulately, they're not, they're not necessarily going to have the horror of a fatal car accident or perhaps they don't know someone battling an opioid addiction. But I wrote it. I attended to write it in such a way that people would see their own cell in the film, whether it's whatever

their lowest point is, the film is about standing back up. The film is about the drive and the hope to continue after a really dark time. Not for you, that could be a divorce or it could be a depression or it could be losing your job or it could be whatever insert your low point here. It's really the film is really a discussion of the human

capability to stand back up with community, with friendship, with love, the ability to go on and still have hope. Yeah, you mentioned, you know, beautifully, but you mentioned that you're not a songwriter, but you do have this, you know, uncanny facility for knowing exactly the right needle drop and exactly the right moment, right? Like you could have had a very successful career as a music supervisor.

You know how to, you know, kind of find the right music to help tell your stories. And you know, this has never been more, you know, successfully exemplified. Then in Garden State, like you basically, like put the shins on the map, this you create this soundtrack album from that experience. You go, you win a Grammy, which is nuts, because like I'm sure it didn't even occur

to you. It went, it went. But here's the best part. Sorry. What is two parts of the story? One is that I idolized Quentin Tarantino and I only met him like twice. And the first time I was in the film, I was like, I was like, what is this? What I met him was after I saw him at the independent spirit awards after I beaten him

for the Grammy for a original soundtrack. That's unbelievable. And he comes up to me and he goes, you stole my fucking Grammy, man. And I was like, is he kidding? Is he serious? I love this man. Please love me. And he kind of smiled. And he was, he was taking the piss as the English saying. But, but that was really surreal because the idea that I

would win a trophy over Quentin Tarantino was that like for which I think it was the second little bill maybe. So it wasn't pulp. I mean, I mean, it's still iconic, but also, you know, Garden State iconic for that soundtrack. The story of that is the ultimate don't give up story. All those songs were songs I was listening to the time and songs I loved. And

I put them in, you know, the avid, which is the computer we edit on to where my cut. But there's not a single person in town that didn't tell me you're not going to get any of those. Right. For people that don't know, when you're cutting, you do this temp track. And like, these are the songs I'd like to have. We're never going to get them.

But like, this is the vibe I'm going for. And what happens is you get temp love. You fall in love with that song. But we had no money. We made that move for two and a half million dollars. We didn't have money to license all of these incredible songs. And I was told by anyone and everyone. You will never get those songs. You need to start

replacing them. And in the spirit of being too young and not knowing what I didn't know, I was like, no, I'm going to get them. I'm going to get them. I didn't know it at the time, but I was manifest. I was manifesting that there was no way I was not going to get all of those songs. And I got every single one. And to what

do you account that? Like, how did that? Just not taking no for an instance persistence, not getting stuck, not going into the field. I'm sure I went into the field position a couple of times, but not taking no for an answer. I remember, you know, for example, the Paul Simon people only live in Boi, New York was one of the hardest ones to get because it's

probably the biggest one. It was expensive in a normal world where you're paying full rate, probably the most expensive song on the album. And it was a hell no hell no hell no hell no. And then I said, what if we got his manager into a screening room? And we just showed him the moment how it's used. And they were like, he's not going to come.

Let's just try. And we the manager came with a few people and they sat in the screening room at CAA alone. And they watched the movie. And at the time, the Paul Simon song came on. I looked over and they were all swiping their eyes. And they said, absolutely, we'll do it. Wow. And then cut to that whole summer, Paul Simon was on tour. And he

started playing only live in Boi, New York. And he never used to play it. And he was saying, you know, I never played the song anymore, but there's this movie that came out called Garden State. And he started playing only live in Boi, New York on tour. That's got to be such a crazy mind fuck. And that happened with every track. It was like, what else

is on? You have Nick Drake. There's so many incredible songs on it. And you know, a little by little, the puzzle, once I got co-played, and then once I got Nick Drake, and then once I got Paul Simon, other people that were smaller are just started saying, like, oh, well, if the cool kids are doing it, we'll do it. And we, we know, we figured out

a deal that was that was that no one ever thought they'd see money from, but was a backend deal where, you know, in a world where someone buys this soundtrack, they'd make money, thinking like, ha, ha, that's never going to happen. But thank you for loaning us your song at a rate we can afford. And then the thing goes on to be platinum. And they all

made lots of money off of it. Did that lead to people contacting you simply to, like, music supervise their movies or to consult on the music? I didn't have a deal. It's probably the only deal like this in the history of deals. But I was, I started a movie called The Last Kiss. Yeah. That I didn't direct. Some people think I directed that movie, but Tony

Goldman. The actors directed Paul Haggis, right? Paul Haggis wrote the screenplay. And I, um, my deal was to star and do the soundtrack. That was my deal. That's, yeah, that's very unique. I don't know if anyone's ever had that deal before, but that was my deal. Uh-huh. So you're like, I'll do it. But I also, I have to do the music. Well, I was thrilled to

do it. I really love the script. It was an adaptation of a very, very popular Italian film called L'Oltimo Baccio. And I was thrilled to be in it. And, and, but I was so hot off the, tales of Garden State that they said, Hey, well, you also do our soundtrack. Right. You have the Golden Tuts. I was like, please. Yeah. That's cool. So the Oscars are

tonight. Like what, how do you, like, when you cast your gaze on, you know, the movies that are being fetted and the kind of movies that are getting made, like, how do you think about the state of Hollywood? And is it headed towards that ballet situation that McKee talked about? I think the jury's still out. We are watching it all change before our eyes. In the

spirit of Seth Godin, uh, audience who's need a story as to why a particular film is worth making the trek to the theater. Cine files, of course, there's a group of cine files who will always go. Those are the people like the people who buy vinyl to listen to music. But what is the story that beyond, beyond just the category of, oh, it's a giant spectacle.

You need to see it on the big screen. Um, the jury is still out on, on, on whether whether films will still be released theatrically that are not in that category. And I think the, that the jury is out on an explanation as to why the general public, the public at large should care about this art form. Yeah. And I think it becomes harder for that

person to care when the choices they're being offered are, are just amusement park. Or rides versus, you know, kind of challenging narratives that create, I know, this is, this is why you're here today. Like I am, I'm doing help me help you. A good person. I'm here. There you go. There you go. But at the same time, like, I'm on these streamers. And I'm like, see,

I just, I'm so nourished by, you know, all different kinds of storytelling formats that aren't necessarily, like, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. So, like, I'm not necessarily the kind, you know, like, like, the, the, the sort of advent of the limited series, like, like, like watching, like, I don't know, crime stories set in Iceland. And like, all this stuff,

I know, but it's, it's an experience. It is. That's a different thing. And what I hope Mr. McKee is wrong about it becoming ballet is that there is, I just a very sacred experience of going into a theatrical house and sitting with strangers. And I think that's a different thing. And watching a piece of art. And also this societal agreement for most people that we turn

off our phones for two hours and immerse ourselves in a story. And at home, we're pausing and we're checking our phone and we're saying, did you feed the dog? And all of this stuff that is not immersing yourself in a story. Now, again, I'm a theater lover and goer. So I, I had that experience with live theater, which is, which is for the community of people

that are into that. We know that. But I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I for the cinematic experience, I pray that that

doesn't go away because I find it very, very special and, and, and, and not something that's akin to watching your favorite streaming program. It is fully immersive. And there's something magical about being around other people experiencing the same thing. Yeah. Amen to that. But we need more good movies in the pipeline. I'm doing all I can. I know you are. It's funny because when I was

you, I, the movie's not out. So I got like a link to see a screener and, and, and then in the middle, like, I, I snapped a little photo and I sent it to you. And you're like, focus. What are you doing? Like, don't you're being the guy? I know. It's like being the guy. That I felt terrible. Right. You're being the guy on his phone.

Yeah. But you know why? You were at home. Yes. Yeah. I wouldn't have done that in a theater. Of course. Of course. And, and, and you're, and I just, I submit, you're going to get way more lost in the theater into a story. I agree. For, for the aspiring writer, creator, filmmaker, who's listening to this, what is the, you know, what is the, the kind of

inspiration or, or the advice that you can give that person who's embarking upon a career or thinking about exploring storytelling as a, as a lifestyle, as a lifestyle. Well, a famous writer, I forgot who it is said, being a writer is signing up to have homework for the rest of your life. Yeah. So Lawrence cast. I think it's Lawrence cast. Yeah. Which I think is very

accurate. We're having a podcast. It's pretty good for having a home of all the time. But a podcast is communal. A podcast. Do you have friends? You have crew members? You have this beautiful studio writing and sitting alone at a blinking cursor, tying yourself you suck. It's hard. That's why we tell people I won't be as trying to scare anyone away from it. But know that

it's, that I'm this deep into it. And I battle procrastination. I battle working. So I would say develop it very early on. I mean, you've had some of these amazing people on your podcast. The, we let's say the guy wrote War of Art. Steve impressed me. I see impressed field and, and the like, you know, you have to develop a system. Very early on, something I

never did that, that is fail safe for you working and producing content. And that is in 2023, that is very much turning off your Wi-Fi and getting your phone out of the room. There are so many distractions. And then I believe with, with, with Mr. Pressfield, it's about putting your butt in the chair and not being afraid to not know what it is today. But getting

in the chair and showing up. But it's, it's like running with an elephant on your back if you're, if you're trying to do it with your phone in your hand. Are you able to take that sensibility, that energy and get right back into it? Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm halfway through a new screenplay now. But that's with a lot of people. That's with maturity and also

really coaching myself and working with people with therapists in particular, it was a cognitive behaviorist. It was this very, very valuable to me of developing systems that support you not failing. So what would be an example of that? Making commitments to produce pages to people. Even he, I mean, I have, I have, you know, people I work with in terms of like who I, who I

get far more than I am. And I've got thoughts on my writing, but even my therapist, even if he was not going to read them, he just external. He will say. He's like, so how many pages are you going to send me by, by Friday? So that's just one example of a system that's in place. I'm, I'm, I'm committed to turning in work. I have this

lightboard thing. I think I sent you a link to it that really helps me. It's a, it's just this. And you can literally do this with a paper calendar. And do stickers on it like you, when you're potty training your kid, it's a matter of like giving yourself a going for a streak. That is to say, you only get a sticker or you're, you like the

thing up my therapist actually said, you can do it with a light. He's, he's, he's clients. It's not with a light bright before. But the point is, you're only, you want to go for a streak, just like I know people who are doing a, who are in a program and we're going for sobriety want a streak. It is, it is how many days can I write

in a row or how many, how many days will I commit to someone, whether it be my partner or myself or whomever your therapist that I will write Monday through Friday for a minimum of four hours a day. And, and when I don't, I've, I've, I've, I've dropped my streak. And there's something about a streak that's very powerful. Yeah, it's, it's an interesting thing like how

reptilian the human brain is like, but momentum is real. I want you bank a few days and you got a little bit of energy behind it. And you're going to put that little light bulb in the thing. You're like, that's enough. You know, I was telling you to get, keep going. I was telling you this when we met that I, I was working on taking a

break from alcohol and that I, and I found that if I printed a paper calendar and literally I got, I ordered stickers on Amazon. And I would just when I didn't, I drink that day, I would put a sticker on the, on the calendar. And it worked for me. Mm-hmm. I, I was like, I'm not going to not get my, I got, I got to get

my sticker. I want my fucking sticker. I'm not gonna, I don't even want this glass wine. I want my sticker. Oh my God. It's like, I don't know whether to be encouraged by that or just think humanity is doomed. You know, well, I think it's, I don't know, you say it's reptilian, but I think, um, I don't know. I guess my, my therapist says it best

is that there's a lot of power in a streak. Yeah. I know that that's a for sure that there's, it's empowering to say, I'm not going to fuck up now. Yeah. You got to respect them. I'm out. I'm yeah, and protect it. You know, and create boundaries around it. I love that your episode. Um, I forgot the name of the guy who did, um, um, uh,

one year no beer. Oh, Andy Romitz. Yeah. Yeah. That was an amazing episode. So that, that, that was a lot of things he said too. But with, with, with regard to alcohol and you know, finding that space for, for people that don't necessarily think they need to work a program. Um, think they can probably do it on their own. Um, but, but also quantum, wanna rethink

their attitudes towards alcohol consumption. Uh, I thought that was. Empowering. Yeah. You can always go back to what you were doing before. And I think what's cool about that movement, um, that, that Andy helped create is, like you said, there's a lot of people out there that wouldn't classify themselves as alcoholics. But, you know, get to a certain age, like, hey, do I really need to

be hung over today? Like, why do I, you know, God and binge every other weekend or whatever it is. Um, but when you're in a culture where that's just the thing that you do, it can be difficult for social reasons to opt out of that and to have like a community of people to support you in finding a different way. Um, and then, and then, you

know, uh, uh, uh, experiencing what it's like to be alcohol free for perhaps the first time and, and seeing how much better you feel and how I'm more present you are in your life and have more productive you are. I'm doing it. Healthy or I will be honest to tell you that I'm doing it. Um, I, uh, I'm taking on his challenge and, um, and, um,

I have you to thank, man, I really, I really, thank you so much for, for bringing, I'm sure there's other people listening. And if you haven't, you have to go listen to that episode. Um, I never felt, I never saw anything in my life that spoke so directly to me in my relationship with alcohol, because I never felt like I would, I would certainly go to

AA if I, if I felt I needed to. And, and, and maybe we'll make that decision one day, but I just felt that episode was so. And his work is so genius because it, it, it, it hits a sliver of the population that hadn't necessarily been addressed before, which is. Like, why do I, why am I doing this habit and, and, and for people that, that

do have the power to just, to, to not work a program and just try and say no, what would my life be like without it? So that was very, very, um, powerful to me. And, um, I'm going to, I'm, I'm, I'm aiming to go six months and see what happens, but I, uh, I feel fucking great. That's awesome, man. Well, you're here today for me to

help you get the word out about your movie, but I feel like I'm getting more out of this from you promoting. No, I'm getting your show, I'm including in your joke of like, uh, yeah, I just got back from the United Kingdom promoting your podcast, like, well, I wasn't. I was on the Chris Evans show and, uh, and we, and, and we, I didn't even know

that he knew you, but we started talking about, you know, uh, anyway, I, I, I, I appreciate it, man. I've said enough. Yeah. But I just, but you have, you have made a big difference in my life. And, and I can imagine for so many people listening, uh, they feel the same way. Well, it's incredible, uh, to hear that. And I'm working on just receiving and,

yeah, we all say, thank you. Um, but it is amazing. Uh, and, and a bit surreal as somebody who, who, who has, followed your work for a very long time and, and has a ton of respect for, um, you know, the, the, the art that you share with the world. And I couldn't, you know, be more excited about this new movie. It, like I said to

you, it's, it's beautifully rendered. And I think everybody should go out and check it out. Thank you. I'm excited for you to have that experience of, of having a movie back in the theaters after a very long time. Thank you. It's a pretty cool and very special experience. And I hope that you can, um, navigate it. With presence and with gratitude and not get caught up

in all those externalities that you can't control. Because your respective of how it does or doesn't do. Um, you should be very proud of what you created. Thank you. Yeah. And it was a pleasure. Thank you. Have a great day. And, you know, yeah, man, this was super cool. Thank you. So thank you. Um, we should, we should probably tell people how to, how to find

tickets and all that kind of stuff, right? Yeah. Van Dango is the most popular way you could find tickets on Van Dango. Right. And just in the US or is it in, um, in the UK and, uh, US? All right. Cool. So check it out. You can get tickets on Van Dango. If you're, you're in the United States or in the UK. And, uh, first weekend,

super important. Yeah. I got to get out there right away. Can't wait around. Please check it out this weekend. Everybody. I really appreciate your thanks. Thanks. This episode was brought to you by Theses personalized new tropics to activate every kind of brain. Get 10% off your first box at takethesis.com slash rich roll and use code rich roll at checkout. That's it for today. Thank you for

listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive as well as podcast merch, my books, finding ultra, voicing change and the plant power away, as well as the Plant Power meal planner at meals.ritual.com. If you'd like to support the

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