John Pearson: Modeling Healthy Masculinity With Th

The Rich Roll Podcast For us to survive, for us to thrive, part of our lives just have to be connected on a really authentic level. Today's going to be a little bit different, a wee bit unique, and that's because my guest is unique. His name is John Pearson, and John has the very interesting distinction of being the original male supermodel. For me, I always knew that

if you had a good time and you really engaged with somebody, if you do that with genuine integrity, that transmits to the person who's looking at that picture. He's a guy who pioneered the male modeling profession. He was the most sought after male model throughout the 90s. He was also the male face of George Michaels' iconic freedom music video, which was directed by a young David

Fincher. And actually, I went into Georgia's trailer to rehearse the song and he actually forgot the words. And I did the orange and one peel and chopped him it landed perfectly all in one. So I knew I was on the right track. But it's important that you guys know that John is a friend. He's a kind, beautiful and wise soul. And he's here today, not so

much because of his past, although that is of course fascinating. He's lived a very unique life and we do go into it. But really more because of how he lives today. And it's all coming right up, but first. We're brought to you today by AG1 by Athletic Greens. A long time and loyal supporter of the show. I'm sure all of you long time listeners have heard

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roll. Okay. In this conversation, we discuss mental health and modeling healthy masculinity, which are the themes that underscore John's very cool lifestyle and self improvement digital magazine, which is called Mr. feel good. I am no matter how worn I am, I want to be present, you know, I want to be real. John is a very special guy. He's really one of my absolute favorite people. And

I'm really excited to introduce you to him. So let's do that right now. This is me and John Pearson. Enjoy. Are you ready? I'm so ready. I'm so ready. I'm delighted to have you here. You know, it's interesting because we've been friends for a couple of years. And I know you, but I don't know you super well. And it's been really fun kind of doing internet

excavation of your life. You've been incredibly interesting life. And the first thing I want to explore with you is like my the sense that I had kind of learning more and more about. Your journey. Is this idea that if I had experienced one 100th of what you were exposed to as a young person in your 20s in New York and London Tokyo, these adventures that you've

had. I would most certainly be dead. Like how are you such a well-adjusted grounded, you know, gentle soul after, you know, all the things that you, you know, the kind of, you know, worlds that you've navigated. Oh, wow. That's a big one. And thank you for that. I think it was just very important for me from the start to sort of establish some sort of control

or equal to the equilibrium about what I was navigating as a young man going into this world, going into this business, going into this thing that was so in contrast to where I came from. And it just, it's a York shaman from North England. You know, you always used to hear, don't ever change. So there was a real grounding roots in me anyway growing up where

I wanted to just, I kind of love the whole idea of adventure in life. And I was really from the end of the world. I was the age of four probably, but definitely from the age of 11, I was just really wanting to see everything and not be pushing the box and explore and be excited about life. And it always came back to, okay, I can

see all the chaos around me. And I can dance within the chaos, but I have to stay grounded and rooted. And it wasn't something that was, you know, that I had some magic pill for it took work. And it took energy. And it took focus to sort of determine what kept me grounded. And at times, you know, it was pretty a major during the eighties and

the eighties, but I'm traveling and working nonstop twice a Europe in a week working both times. And that went on for years just to keep your sort of, keep your head. Right. You know, yeah, it sounds as if there was some sort of self defense mechanism inside of you that put up some guardrails. Because I imagine that you've seen quite a bit of carnage. I mean,

that period in the eighties and, you know, late eighties, New York City, you know, the worlds that you were in. I mean, there's got to be like a lot of, you know, dead friends in your wake as a result of kind of lifestyle that was happening. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That half. It was incredible. It was incredible. It was incredible. And at times, it was

too much because at times, the travel and being the center of attention and turning up and playing the clown in a way, because I always felt part of my job description was to not be afraid to be the fool. So I could, so I could be light so I can be present so that I could serve the people around me. And there were times when, yeah,

it was, it was pretty mental, you know, is traveling around the world, then going out and doing crew dinners every night and always been on, always been on. And I think when I was in my mid-twenties, I just got to this point. Where I just, I don't want anyone to touch me to come near me. I had multiple bookings for the next six months that I

said to my agent, much to his chagrime. You know, I, I, I, I can't do this anymore. So I went off to a jumeiker on my own, never been to jumeiker and spent a week there just sort of writing and meditating and being clear and trying to find peace. And then it actually, when I did that, when I came back, that was the first time that

I feel I'd really honored myself and given myself the time. And that just shifted to something in me. And I thought, oh, this, I can, I can have control of myself. I can sort of figure these things out and navigate and know who I am. You know, I mean, it's an ongoing project, even at this age. But yeah, I mean, in 2022 to do that would

be something that would be celebrated. But, you know, back then, probably you were told like you're crazy or why are you doing that? Or you need to do as you're told and show up or I would never told you needs to do as you told. No way. Because you hear these stories about the modeling world in your life. You know, you're a piece of meat and

you show up here and you hit your marks and you, you know, put on the put on the whatever they want you to do. But it sounds like your experience was more collaborative and healthy. It was. And I think if you know, if you, I don't mean to sound self righteous because I was very wobbly at times. But I think if you enter a room and

you go into a place knowing who you are, people pick up on that. And if you want to be abused, you know, I'm not going to happen. But for me, I, I never, you know, I never, I don't think I, I, I, I fought at times with the idea of being a male model. Because I'm a North, you know, and I'm from, you know, it is

a weird thing. I mean, it's a thing like, yeah. Like, you know, you're, you're such a recognizable face. People that don't follow that world at all probably see you and think, oh, I know that guy or maybe I met him or I know him from somewhere. I mean, there's no way I could have been able to do that. I know magazine that you haven't been in.

So at some point it gets imprinted on the unconscious mind, but they don't know you. They may not know your name. And that has to be kind of disorienting for you as well, right? No. No. You're like on the wrong track. No, I want to answer questions. Because I, you know, I, I used me. I, I, I, all of these ideas. I, I, I look at

myself, you know, what I've done. And it's, it's not very interesting to me. And what I'm doing now is really interesting. We're going to get to that. No, I know. But no, I mean, I'm trying to think, you know, I saw a lot of carnage. I saw a lot of, I saw a lot of behavior that wasn't grace. But I always naturally was empathetic. And I

was always, I was sort of brought up to stand up for people and stand up for myself. So I never really was chasing conflict. But I wanted to just make the day, which I do to this day, the best day it could be. And, and I was working too hard. And yeah, I had fun. And, you know, I, all my friends with the DJs in New

York. So I'd come back to New York. I always had the best place to go to. I was in the DJ booth. I saw all that. I enjoyed all that. But I also had to get up the next day. And I've always had this sense of responsibility and a work ethic. Because I'm a working class boy from Yorkshire to get there and do the best I

can in the day with what I've got. So there was always a really grown up kind of stoic get to it. You know, have a good attitude. And that's where you'll succeed. And I was really, I was really focused about having an interesting life. That's what it's been. But as far as your question, you know, being just a pretty face and all those things and feeling,

you know, I don't know. I didn't go to a great university or anything like that. I didn't have that education. I educated myself reading on books going across the Atlantic and around the world for 25 years. You know, that, that I kind of wrestled with that at times during my 20s. Because I was trying to figure out what I really wanted to do. What my purpose

in life was. But I didn't, I didn't, you know, I just got found peace with it eventually. And I just thought, look, I'm really, I can't swear, can I? I can. But I'm really fucking lucky. And fortunate. Literally what I wanted to do. I was coming home from a girlfriend's place on two buses on a Sunday night in Rainy Yorkshire. And I saw this billboard of

four, a couple, two guys, two girls in bikinis, sort of in trunks in the seashells. And I thought, oh, I want a bit of that life. And literally within that, in the year, it started to happen. I mean, never thought it'd go to where it went. But it did. Yeah. You know, so it's pretty amazing. I mean, you're in your fourth decade of doing this there.

Man, really? Come on, we're the same age. We can, we can have this conversation. Yeah. But that sense of responsibility, that sense of having to be a grown up, you know, came, was visited upon you early, right? Like when your father passed away at a young age. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my parents divorced when I was four years old. I have two older sisters and a

mum. I went to live with them an hour and a half away. And my father for the, until I was 11, was a great father and saw us every other weekend. But he passed away. And yeah, it was, it was massive. It was massive. And I don't think with all respect to my family and those around me, and being English, I think, at that point in

time, there was the sort of counseling and the supports that a young person would have. I was literally told by someone to just go to my father's grave. You know, my mum asked someone a man, and a supposed mentor, what, you know, have a word with John. And I, you know, little boy in a little cap and a little suit, so that it is grave. And

through this guy said, oh, just chuck some dirt on there and say, don't worry, Dad, I've got this. I'll look after everyone. Really. And I did. That's what I did. I know. I know. You know, and then I was told by one of a family member, a senior family member, that I could go to private school and I could have a great, you know, education. But

I was terrified to leave my mother and my kids. You know, and I said, I'll get everything out of my comprehensive school that I can get out of a private school. And I did. But I was, you know, it was just, it was, there wasn't that support system. There wasn't that understanding or that. No, no, no healthy male mentor, no healthy male. So you just went

and got a bunch of jobs, right? Yeah. Started at 12 in the market, selling vegetables and fruit and was, you know, fantastic. I'd work from 7 a.m. to 530. I'd work with every kind of person, every sort of, you know, in the, from poor people, working class people, rich people, posh people, educated, not educated. I'd come home at night and I'd have five bags of old

second fruit, which had sell again. I only made two pound 50. A day, half an hour off in the lunchtime. And then I went from there into a gene store, which is a really hip gene store and was a manager there within weeks and was the, you know, best salesman in the whole 50 out of 53 stores. And so I just got busy. And I got,

and I just wanted to be independent. And I wanted to get out there in the world. And I just wanted to have, you know, the career officer couldn't figure me out. They said, we know you'd do well, but we don't know what you'll do. You could go and work in the factory. And that was like, no, you know, I can't work. I want to see the

world. I was, I loved American television shows and, you know, palm trees and California. Yeah. So that dream was kind of ruminating in the, in the back of your consciousness. And then one day someone walks into the denim shop, right? Like, and this kind of changes everything. Yeah. Yeah. I was selling stretch jeans. And I loved it. And this was the era. So this must have

been like 80, 83, 84, George Ash and Brook Shields. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. We remember it well. We can see the film in its years. Yeah. They were. So I was really, I was having a great time. And yeah, a guy came in and said, Hey, I'd like to take pictures of you. And at first I was a bit, what's this? A little bit suspicious.

But then I thought, let's have a go. And I was mad about sort of James Dean and Montgomery Cliff and American Gregory Pack and all the movies. And, and as soon as I got on a set and I took my sister with me actually, because I was a little bit nervous. My own clothes. And he just started choosing. And I just felt really eat a tease.

And I felt like, you know, I had that youthful sort of confidence and aspirations. And I just, I just, I just felt a tease. You know, and I thought, oh, this is fun. This is good. I can, you know, I can make this happen. There's some joy in here. There's some energy. So yeah. And how long between that experience and everything kind of clicking into place

in New York City? Gosh, I think after that, my sister sent some pictures off to this magazine in London call Look Now, which was the sort of, you know, the team, team-bopper sort of magazine of the day. And they invited me down to London. I think I'd only been to London once before to see a play with my school. And I went down, got in a

black taxi for the first time, went to North London, went in and there were two extraordinarily beautiful French girls. And I brought my cassette tape with me of all my music, shoved it on and had an amazing time shot an editorial. Then I went back up to Yorkshire that night and carried on working. And then they called me back and said, would you come and do

another magazine and another cover. So I went down, did that. And I don't think I wasn't even living in London. And I moved to London when I was 18. And again, I had, I wanted to be an actor. I had no idea. I was like, what would happen? But the agency took me on. I started working very quickly. I was like, okay, this is a bit

weird. I wasn't sort of, I didn't feel that I looked like the male models that I'd seen in, you know, Vogue and everything else. I felt like a bit of a scruffy outsider. And then things started to happen. And then I went to Japan. I made a bit of money. I had an extraordinary experience in 86. And then the idea was to come to New York.

On November the 4th, 1986, I flew to New York with a great buddy of my and about two days later, it just started to happen. I did the cover of Self With Uma Thurman. I went in my first limousine. I saw a Met Cindy Crawford for the first time she just arrived from Chicago. I couldn't believe it. And it just deemrolled. And I really thought that

it was just going to be a couple of months. And this is fun. And they'll wait tables. And I'll be an actor and get into the actor's studio. And it just started. And it just was perpetual. And it just, you know, I, in those days as well, you could book a client and you'd have them, you know, twice a year or four times a year for

six or seven years. So you really became, it was before actors started going on the front and celebrities started going on the front of magazines. So it was just this, you know, exponential, immediate growth that happened. And it sort of took me by surprise, but I thought, right, I'm going to make the most of this. Yeah, I mean, it was also like a timing thing because

this was all occurring at the very beginning of this whole supermodel, you know, kind of obsession, where culture, like this, the whole supermodel thing, right? Like wasn't a thing until like the mid, I mean, when did that start? I mean, you were there, right? Yeah. When the genesis of that. Yeah. And it was this intersection of like music, rock and roll, culture, fashion, and, and the

kind of glossy magazine era, I mean, magazine, like it's just not what it was back then, like it was a big deal, right? And all of that was kind of happening, you know, at the same time, it was like this perfect storm in New York seemed to be like the place where that was occurring. And then there you were. Yeah. I don't look at you. I

mean, it was great. And these women become household names, right? You know, and you're right there. Like I want to talk about the George Michael. Yeah. Yeah. That's like crazy. Right? Like it's just so iconic. All of it. Yeah. No, it was, you know, it was, you know, it was a magical moment. It was, as you say, like a fusion of fashion and, and film and

excitement and youth. And there was a real movement. And yeah, that great cover. I forget what year it was. But it's around 91, maybe 92 of Peter Limbock shot of all the girls on the cover of Vogue. And then the freedom video. And I was the guy. I was one of the guys, but I was sort of the prominent guy. And I almost didn't do it.

So it's really funny. But it was only because I knew the girls, because I wrote with them a lot. And I thought, all right, I'll do this. Um, but yeah, it was a magical time. It was extraordinary. It was vital. It was happening. It was dynamic. It was a great time to be alive in New York at that time. It really was. I hadn't watched that

video in a while. And I watched it last night. And I was like, wow. Like it, it does not. There's nothing about it that feels dated or aged. I mean, the song is so incredible. And the, you know, the women are just radiant in that. And then you're like, you are the stand in for George Michael. Like you are his sort of it or, you know,

you know, super ego throughout that video. It's really quite something. And I couldn't help but think like, this is part of the myth making of what the super model, you know, was at that time. And it's sort of like this touch-known of where the culture was because that video was also directed by David Fincher. Yeah. One of his early things like he was just, I think

he was just editing his first alien movie. Right. The alien movie is first feature, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So all of those like, you know, culturally relevant people in one place at one time. It was George Michael like there behind the scene. Yeah. So I should tell you, I should tell you what, that was a crazy week. Because I was literally working in New York. I flew

to Stockholm. I shot in Stockholm. I took a train to Lapland. I shot two nights in Lapland during their summer. So there was, I was in this hotel room with blackout blinds. And I literally still had to sleep with my head in the bathroom at the back of the room. Because it was still coming through. I left there. I went to Paris. I did a night

shoot for, I think it was, it wasn't brandy. Yeah, it was a brandy at the Garden North. So I did a night shoot. Then I flew to London at six in the morning, straight from the shoot. A car picked me up. I had to learn the song on the way to the studios. A couple of verses that are tricky because they're so similar. Put it on

and we'll sing it now. And then I got there. And you know, first person I saw was Christy. And that, which was great. It was a delight. I shot my days with Christy and with Linda. I mean, amazing people, amazing humans. Incredible, incredible models really and humans more so. And I met George, you know, and actually I went into George's, George's tray and I was like,

I'm a killer to rehearse the song and he actually forgot the words. So I was pleased that I'd learnt them. And it just was, it was a magical day. It was a magical day. And I literally wore my own clothes that I turned up in. Camilla, the stylist, you know, she said, oh, just wear that. I had long johns on, I think, and wore my own

clothes. And nothing happened that day. And then the producer came over to me and said, oh, are you free tomorrow? Can you shoot tomorrow? Because we've got a rap today. I said, sure. I said, you don't mind doing it for free. I said, yes, I do. I said, I don't know how much they're getting. And I was really, I was really sort of, I was, you're

lucky. It's working. It's working class though. But it was that sort of principle thing. So I came back the next day. And I had an orange. And I was peeling an orange. And David came over with George and said, right, John, hi, nice to see you. You know, what should we do? He said, I like the way you're peeling your orange. I said, well, last night

I saw this great picture of Paul Newman outside the actor's center sat in the doorway looking at the script. He said, perfect. And he built me the frame. And literally it was three takes and we had it done. Yeah, because you're lounging back. And I did the orange and one peel and chopped it and it landed perfectly all in one. So I knew I was on

the right track. Yeah. But was there a sense? Nobody could have known like what what a big deal that video was going to be. I mean, times were different. We lived in much more of a monoculture and M.D. was important. And when videos like this premiered, it was an event, right? And that video definitely struck a cultural chord at the time. Yeah, I mean, I really

just thought it was another job, which sounds very sort of, I hope it doesn't sound arrogant. But it was like another job. And I was go off to another job the next day. And I didn't realize the importance, the gravitas of it until I was working about three months later. Because also in those days, which was lovely. There was an anticipation of seeing the work three

months later. And it wasn't immediate and it wasn't forgotten. And then it became sort of built its iconic status in a way. And you waited to see it. And I was in a hotel shooting in a bar in Miami. And suddenly the television was on in the back. And as MTV. And it came on. And everyone just started bopping. Oh wow. Wow. And I was like,

okay, I think I'm in this, if they haven't caught me out. And the opening scene, I think, is my nose. And then suddenly it happened. I thought, that's pretty good. Right, you sing the first verse. You're like the first person we see. I believe, right? Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah. And then of course, one of the best things that we can do is to figure out

what we are doing here, what we are doing for the most. And we're doing what we're doing here. And then we're doing what we're doing for the most. And we're doing what we're doing here. And we're doing what we're doing. We're doing what we're doing. We're doing what we're doing. We're doing what we're doing. Of course, it just became this phenomena, which went on and on

and to this day. And I really didn't understand the importance of it until later. And you know, when I, well, you know, I just really glad to be a part of it now. Did you ever cross paths with George again after that? I saw him on the IV and he was absolutely lovely. And, and I wish I'd seen him more. Such a talent. He was so

extraordinary. Oh, that's the other thing. When I met him for the first time, this is, I think it was just a little bit of a struggle. It's just boy, stuff I went up. I said, oh, I love George. I know you. I know all about you. Because our birthdays are two days apart, but you're two years older than me. That's the first line I said to

him. And he kind of looked back at me, like, who's this strange person? But then we just, you know, we just gotten really well. He was very warm. He was, he was into it. And he was just right there. And he really wanted to make a statement. Over the course of your career, you've worked with essentially every great photographer. What is your sense of like what

makes for a great, image? And how do you think about like the myth making of, of those images? Because so many of the campaigns that you've been involved with are really about telling a story or, you know, creating, you know, a sense of, of an aspirational lifestyle, right? That like inspires people. There's a dark side to it, I suppose, as well. But there's something kind of

really cool from a creative perspective to work with such talented people, kind of understated. I understand the power of what they're creating. Most of the question. Yeah, I don't know. Here's a, here's like, I'm throwing you this fall. More like something I want to better understand. Just like working with these amazing image makers. Yeah. Like what makes them great? Like what, what is the difference between,

you know, somebody who is utilitarian as a photographer and that person who just sees something that no one else sees and can capture that? I mean, I work with everyone and I like you say, and I've worked at every level and I'm, you know, I've still to this day. I'm very grateful to work at the high level as well and do campaigns. But it's when someone's

got a signature. And if someone's got a signature of a look or the way they are, that very set in the way they want to produce something. And they're concentrated. And the environment around them is all on the same level of support. Then you just know you knew that you were in the company. And you knew that you were in the company of people who would

be doing something, would be photographing you in a way that elevated the whole day. And you knew you were in great hands and you learned from that. And then you were free within that to sort of create. I was always looking to do stuff that was different. So, you know, I got sicker looking at myself. And you kind of, you just want to see what can

I learn here? So I picked up the people who are really amazing and the people that are concentrated. And they really, I think, love what they do and they have a signature which is, which sort of separates them from the mass. And they, they are sincere with that. And they can't, I just immediately think of Peter Limburg, who is extraordinary. He had such joy. And he

loved what he did. And he worked hard and he put everything into it. But he ran a set that was all, you know, focus on as all having a wonderful time and also getting the great image that would stand the test of time. And they really, they do and they will. All his bitches are amazing. Yeah, yeah. And there's a few people like that. And we

had great art directors Fabian Barron, you know, was extraordinary in Tray Laird. And I worked with them on multiple campaigns and editorials. And they were characters. And they really knew what they wanted. And they were, they were ahead of the day. They were the pioneers. And so you, you just soak it all up and you learn to read a room. That's what you do. You learn

to read a room. And you, you learn to, if there's, you know, I'm, I'm very sensitive to people. Empathetic, I think. And for me, it was really important as well. And it is really important. Just to treat everyone with respect, no matter whether the craft people or the people, you know, who were paying my bill. Yeah. Well, I think that that's, that must be part and

parcel of your, your kind of longevity recipe. Right. It's a, it's a, I mean, fashion is a youth obsessed culture and business. You've been, you've been doing this for decades. You still book and you still work. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm not going to say that I'm not going to be a part of it. And you're unbelievably handsome. And we all know that. You're a

beautiful man. John. But ultimately, I have to believe that you, you know, people want to hire people they like to work with. Yeah. But they've worked, they've had good experiences working within the past. And, you know, fashion, I'm sure is, you know, sort of spitting out people all the time who are, you know, handsome or beautiful or what have you, but are difficult or not team

players and don't respect the process or whatever it is. So the fact that you're still. So, you know, actively, you know, engaged in this world is, you know, tribute, I think more to your kind of life philosophy or the manner in which you treat people. I mean, I've been around you enough to know, you know, what a lovely human you are and how curious you are

about other people and the kind of level of respect and care that you inject all of your interactions with. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it's, I think it was always for me. One of them, one of the reasons is I just wanted to rebook. And I knew that was really interesting. So that was almost conscious. So there was an element of that which was,

you know, being a salesman, I think, that came from my market days. And I think, but all, I mean, to me, I looked at magazines. And when I was in Italy, all these Americans were there. And I hadn't really met Americans before. And they were all gymmed up and six packs and everything else. And that was so not me. We were the sort of, you know,

we prided ourselves out my little sort of motley crew of Europeans, our little tribe on, you know, Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole and drinking and going out. And, you know, we don't go to the gym and all that sort of stuff, which, you know, now I'm the age I am. I'm like, okay, I should have maybe looked at myself a bit more. But, but no, it

was always about that. It's always about feeling good. It's always about raising the day. We're really fortunate to do what we do. And, and to have the life and the places I've been and the people I've met. And it was just, well, I've got to have a good attitude with that. There's always going to be better looking. There's always going to be someone new on the

block. But for me, it was always about connecting with the people on more than just the superficial level. I wanted to really engage. I am naturally curious in people's stories. So, you know, I'm, you know, I'm just grateful that I'm here. I literally went from a young stud to a granddad. You know, I've done it all. And it's kind of ridiculous. But I can't believe it.

I'm still here doing it occasionally. But I really have a lot of joy in doing it now because I can help the young kids. And I can tell the stories. And it's different, of course. But, you know, you can you can, it's just great. I feel it's great to be involved in a collaborative, creative, pursuess. And I think everyone who comes into that circle should be

respected and should be given time and attention. You know, I think it's, I think, you know, we all, we all have a good time. Everyone's going to remember it. And you remember those moments 20 years later, someone all come up to me and say, oh, thank you. You gave me this advice and it really helped. And I can't remember it. But at the time, because you

had a genuine connection, it meant something. You think part of that is a reaction to the fact that you didn't have anybody like that when you were a young person. Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do. I do. I do. And I think part of my success, there I say as a performer, was in a way probably to get a validation or get an approval, you know,

and, and maybe that's why I was really searching for a lot. And so I managed to take care of everybody. But yes, I think it definitely has something to do with it. And as well as wanting to have an extraordinary life. Yeah. And now you have Mr. Feelgood as an outlet to express that curiosity, which I think is pretty cool. And probably on some level also,

like looking for mentors or introducing an audience to people who can be mentors, like I think about this podcast in a similar way. Yeah. In thinking about the lack of mentors that you had, I was reflecting on my own life, thinking who are my mentors and realizing that, you know, I had a great dad. But it's often not the parent that you're looking to to be

the mentor. And I had a bunch of really unhealthy people who were giving me not great advice as a young person, despite having a lot of opportunity. Like I didn't have a really good mentor. And I thought, maybe this podcast is like this latent desire to like, you know, continue to find those people that I didn't have when I was when I was younger. Yeah. And

Mr. Feelgood obviously feels similar in that regard. Yeah. I mean, men's mentor, it's just such a vital part for a healthy mental and physical life as well. And I didn't have a mentor, like you say. But I made a, I made a, I really remember consciously, especially after my father died, making all my best friends. And I had a wide circle of friends. I was really

more so engaged with trying to find a sort of hybrid of what a man should be. So I got very close with all their fathers. And they were all amazing. You know, someone taught me about humor, someone taught me about, you know, being professional, about dress, what you, how are you presented yourself? Someone, you know, made me want to read. So I sort of picked out

this, made this sort of imaginary, not perfect man, but a pretty good man to get to navigate life from that. And, and that was extraordinary. But at the same time, there was a sort of, you know, there was a, I was dealing with this grief of losing a parent. Without any kind of support. And, and so that was, I didn't want to infringe on my friends'

relationships with their dads as well, you know. And, but the Mr. Feelgood is really a, yeah, it's a culmination born out of sort of not being able to travel anymore, knowing all these people and having all these adventures and really been interested in people. And in, you know, ways of thinking and of ways of living and making money and everything else. And, and it was really

designed as a, the, the, the genesis of it was as a push back to the toxicity that we all were collectively experiencing during the pandemic. And the political division. But also just wanting to really put something out there that was positive, that was helpful, that unified people that. And especially with men, you know, I grew up with all women, but I'm equally happy in a car

or a room full of men. But I was always quite open in my environment as well growing up, talking about things that mattered, feelings and, you know, it was kind of encouraged. And I thought it was really important for men, especially to communicate probably. And I don't care. You know, what your sexuality is, what your socio economic background is, your education. I just think that if

we all sat around a campfire in the Mojave desert, I'm no beautiful sky. We're going to have a beautiful experience together. And we're going to learn something. So with Mr. Feelgood, I continue to do it and enjoy it and thrive in it because I'm learning so much from the people. It's like you, you get these people. In front of you and you can actually talk to

them and learn stuff. And it's, and it's just so inspiring to me. But at the same time, it's so useful. And there's a father of three kids, two boys and a girl. You know, it is, it takes a village. You know, it takes a village to raise your kids. And I'm really aware of that. And I'm really grateful for that as well. Because, you know, they

look at me like, Dad, what you're doing, you know, oh, yeah, Dad, you know, Dad, you know, but then if I talk to a good friend of mine and he drops a little bit of the advice, you see them open up. And I'm so grateful. It's funny how that works, right? Yeah. Like everything I do, my kids think is cringe worthy. Yeah. Of course. Right. It

doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't. Well, imagine being a male model. Yeah. The level of shit that they must get. Oh, man. Yeah. No. Yeah. It is. But I think they, you know, they know when to stop because I'll get two senses if it is secure. The light back off from dad, you know. Mr. Feelgood. What is this pandemic baby like you birthed this thing when we're

all locked down? And I'm sure you're, you know, trying to figure out how to exert your creative voice in a moment in which we can't travel and all of that. And I do think that there's something really necessary and urgent about speaking to the mental health of men. Like there is, despite, look, there's a lot of progress and things have changed quite a bit. But there

aren't quite the level of resources that are available. For women in that regard. And I'm not sure there really is that sense of permissiveness that is required for men to engage in a vulnerable in real way with what we've sort of been taught our whole lives to kind of repress. Like that advice to, you know, look at your dad's tombstone and just push it down and

move along. You know, like that is still probably the the raining paradigm when it comes to men and mental health. And if there's anything, you know, that I'm trying to do, you know, trying to speak to, it's kind of upending that paradigm. And that feels very much at the heart of what you're, you know, attempting to do as well. Yeah. I mean, it's what you do.

It's what I do. It's, you know, there's some great people out there doing it. And I think it's vital work for us all to sort of own every aspect of ourselves and try and deal with it. So yeah, and absolutely. Yeah. But you can't deliver that message in a clinical way. And I like how you've wrapped it in fashion and music with beautiful photography and storytelling.

And kind of this very specific interview style where you kind of asked the same questions to all of these guests. So you're delivering a certain kind of product that feels more like a glossy fashion magazine. But with a certain heart and intentionality about it that doesn't exist in that world. Yeah. And that was really born out of when Pete Samsung, my co founder of Mr. Fieldgood,

who's 20 year veteran Fleet Street Journalist, you know, very smart. I knew him because I knew his wife worked with my wife creatively. And he, so we knew each other a little bit, but he came up to me just, he called me just before lockdown and said, can I have a word with you? I want to talk to you about something. I said, sure, I was

interested. I met him for lunch. And he sort of had a rough idea of what Mr. Fieldgood was. He sort of conceived it. And he liked my writing and Instagram or something like that because he was honest, I suppose, and there was something to it. But really, I remember him. I remember it so clearly, I was shopping around this thing that I'd written and produced an

art show. And at the time, just before lockdown, that I'd been working on for a couple of years. But he, it was the way he spoke to me. And the way he was vulnerable, he, you know, just stopped drinking and he was tired of doing the same old thing all the time being this, you know, this sort of reporter that went around the world and a

little bit of sensationalism in there. And he was so honest when he talked to me, when he sat up as it me, he was so open. And he was vulnerable. And he was not a guy. Usually I'd see him at airports and we, you know, smoke and cigarettes having a drink at the bar. And to see him in this position, it just really, really spoke to

me. And I said, well, let's develop it. Let's play. Let's see what we can do. I love the idea. And originally, he was just going to sort of use me as a frontman. That's have been used all these times. And I could come in and come out. And, you know, it's a sort of vanity project. But the more I thought about it, I think it was

a very, very interesting thing to do. I thought about it and exchange ideas with him. The more I realized that it was something of value and it could be something that could really help. And also I could, you know, I could utilize my experience on every level in various careers or, you know, professions and the people, the relationships that I built, which really for me, you

know, in the 90s when I was in LA and I was, you know, really shooting everything. People used to talk about networking. And I hated that phrase. I hated that word because it sent me out of the way. And I felt so insincere. It felt like it was sleazy and you're just going after something to get something. Yeah. And I just, you know, I don't want

to be, I don't know why. But I just felt it was a bit dirty. And I wanted to have a proper conversation. I wanted to connect with people. And if I said I do something for someone, I would absolutely do it. And I would today, it's just, it doesn't, I don't second guess that at all. So I don't know. I think I think I don't even

know. Sorry, I've lost you've lost me. Yeah, just the idea of like, I think what you're getting at is you have decades of relationships that you've built organically with the best of intentions over many years. And now you have this digital media project, you know, idea that you're trying to birth into the world. And you can tap into all of these people with whom you have

tremendous goodwill because you worked with them for many years. So you're able to like get these incredible photographers. And you have access to talent and studio space and all these sorts of things. Because it's sort of like I look at it like, well, I've been doing this 10 years. And now we're in a place where we can have this studio. And I can have people. I

love you. You'll see me and all this kind of stuff. But you come out of the gate. And it's like, this is an expensive proposition. You know, like you're going to, you want to work with like top tier people and deliver at the highest level. Like that doesn't happen cheaply. And, you know, it's one thing to develop an audience over time where you can monetize it

in a certain way and kind of square the budget. But you've bit off a lot. And it's ambitious, right? So I'm interested in the business side of it and how you're making that work. And I know you have brands now who are coming in who are supporting you. And, and, you know, the legacy of your, your career has, you know, allowed people to step in and

who believe in you. And you're willing to support you. Yeah. I mean, I'm really fortunate. And also I'm married to someone within the industry. And, you know, we've forged genuine friendships. And I hope respect for certainly I have respect for the people around me. You know, over three decades. And, and so, and also we're at a period where, you know, photographers and teams want to work.

And they want to show their work without too much interference. And I choose those people or those people come to me and, you know, because I want them to flat to blossom as well. So I want to give them space and, and a sort of page to do what they want to do. And we're just, I'm really grateful for all the teams. I mean, you know,

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I didn't think it happened like this. But I kind of had confidence in, in my relationships. And once we'd done a couple of issues. And, you know, I opened with an interview with all the girls from the freedom video agreed. It was a 30th anniversary. And I sort of tentatively, you know, texted, uh, Christy turning turn a mask

to her. If she would be interested, she was straight in and brought all the other girls and then spoke to Tatiana. And they were so supportive. You know, and that was just like, okay, that's very tantalizing way to launch. Yeah. People are going to be interested. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was. It was a 30th anniversary of this iconic video. So as far as business goes, yeah,

we're, we're getting advertising and starting to come in, which is amazing. Um, but we're also, you know, we're finding our way. We, you know, we decide we still, we're trying to determine. And I say this, and I feel vulnerable saying it, but we're trying to determine where we are. What exactly we will be. Um, I just know that we're, we're a community that's building of great

creative. But everyone is welcome. Having a great conversation and trying to learn and support one another. And you know, pull there and prejudice and sort of have an open mind. I just want to learn. And I, I feel like all the people that are around us working with us and for as a sort of in that same vein, you know, and I mean, I get letters

every week from really good photographers and creative people wanting to work with us. It's just a case of, you know, we're not a big operation right now. So we're, we're doing every single job and things. That's another thing that I, it was a learning curve for me. I had to, I mean, and you helped me so much in this in your conversations, because I had to

break through so many comfort zones, because I was the guy that was always helping me, everyone out and doing that. That's my natural, you know, personality, I think. But also I suddenly had to work on a deadline. I had to be accountable. I had to rice every week, you know, I had to trust that I could walk onto a set, having been the model, the subjects

and direct the set. Make sure everyone did a great job and they kind of, you know, be the creative director on that. So use everything that I'd seen. First hand, from the best professors in the cultural business. And just trust that I could, you know, I could execute this and make the person feel good and relaxed and know that I'm after the truth of what they've

got to say, because that's what I value most. So, you know, it's a learning curve that continues to this day. I mean, it's, it's never ending. Well, I think, I think, and I say this all the time, it's important. Especially in the kind of nascent stages of anything creative that's ongoing like this is remaining open and flexible. And being in that space of letting it tell

you what it wants to be, like not being rigid and saying, this is what we're doing. Like, okay, here's what we're doing now. But let's learn, like, oh, maybe it would be cool if we move over here or we do this. And I've seen some evolution already with you. I think one of the things that we talked about early was originally it was, it was photographs

and written material. But you've, evolved into, like, you put it out as a podcast and you have YouTube videos, like, you kind of have to be everywhere now. And I think we talked about how important video is, like, you can't, there's no way around it. Like, you have to make that part of the thing. And that's an expensive proposition, you know, especially in the early, you

know, phases of what you're trying to do. Yes, it is. And yes, you know, you can, you know, and obviously being a, I kept a journal for 10 years, but apart from that. And I was a big reader, as I said. So I was in tip of my, talk with the guy over there. Wonder if anything fits my perspective. I kind of thought you used talking,

I still had a little message in common. You know, it wasn't... I was like, when I was just talking, and you know, talking, talking about to keep all these plates spinning and have some degree of control, just because there's so much to do. You know, I do everything. So with, you know, with Pete, of course, in Allison as well. But it's... I saw you think the

other day about 10 years, you're 10-year anniversary, and I thought, wow, I'm just over two years in now of doing this 24-7, of working on this, you know, night and day, really. I thought, oh my goodness, it's a long way to go. I've got a long way to go. We'll have to create some kind of sustainability measures for yourself. Yeah. Because you can't... You can't transmit

something you haven't got. And if part of the message or a big part of the message is self-care, mental health, etc. If you're on a track to burning out and you're not able to like exercise that yourself, then you can't transmit that message. You can't do it. It's where you preach, yeah. And it's something I've... You know, I've run up against this. I'm sure it becomes

very difficult. Like, all this wellness is making me unwelter. All this talk about mental health is, is deceasing my mind, right? Like, how do you strike that balance for yourself as an entrepreneur who's, you know, it's scrappy and you gotta like make it happen that it falls on your shoulders and all of that? Yeah, I mean, you, you, the way you put everything out just blows

my mind. You know, it's a lot of tons of people helping me now. I know, but you know, it's evolved into... Yeah, I know. And it's very, very impressive and effective with us. It's literally, you know, I shoot it on iPhones for the most part. And I send it to my nephew who's a film, you know, an actor and a film studio in London and he

edits it with me or with us. And it's very scrappy, as you know, because I interview with you. It's one iPhone then. And I still haven't gotten around to edit that. But I understand the value. So, yeah, so the value of, you know, I was writing these tomes to my interviews at the beginning and, you know, Pete sort of saying, John, 15,000 words is a bit

too many. Let's bring it down to 1500 or 3000. And I was so protective because it was really important for me to get the essence of the human being. And Pete's a lot more thank goodness. He's a great editor and his pragmatic and his factual and his, you know, is to the point, whereas I'm really a bit more, I don't know, emotional and I want to

really, I feel I need to connect with the human being. And I feel a great way to respond to the people that I interview as well as I'm sure you do. And so video is a way, I think it's just of the zeitgeist now. It's of the movement. People get their information that way. So we're working on that now and improving that. And, you know, it's

just a question of time and being able to do everything. And at the same time, bring up a family and, you know, and provide for yourself and just crack on, you know. So I'm learning as I go, I really am one foot in front of the other. Trying to keep calm. Many times trying to learn how to look after myself within the chaos, which is challenging.

You know, it really is challenging. So. But like you say, yeah, you've got to, you've got to be well to really with integrity speak about wellness and hope to help other people. Right. Yeah. I mean, for sure. And listen, you know, I say that as somebody who's constantly out of balance. Like it's not anything that I that I have mastered by any stretch of the imagination.

I just know from experience and being, you know, massively out of balance at times, you know, the pressures that that create and the level of, you know, dissonance that you feel as this person who has a sense of responsibility, the audience, you know, like if you're out of balance, how powerful is this message that you're putting out? Yeah. It's going to fall flat like on a

spiritual energy level. Right. It's not integrated. It's not, you know, it's not in lockstep with who you are. So staying on top of that, I think is really important. And I think that goes back to what we were talking about in pictures and in stills and in videos. For me, I always knew that if you had a good time and you really engaged with somebody and

you got lost and you weren't afraid to be a fool and to be daft and to, you know, my responsibility, especially as I got older, was I really wanted to take care of the people who were in the photograph with me. I wanted to make them come to the world as girl or a kid or a baby or whatever else or another man, you know, you

want to. And I think if you do that properly and you do that with genuine integrity, that transmits to the person who's looking at that picture. And that's just the way it is. And so, you know, I always want to, no matter how tired I am, no matter how worn out I am, I want to be present, you know, I want to be, I want to

be real. Yeah. We talked about the other day when we got together, I was asking you about, how you define success for yourself and family really is at the center of all of this for you, right? Yeah. And Mr. Feelgood is kind of a way of honoring that on some level tangentially, like what's important to you in the work that you do and how you live

your life. Yeah, it was really, it was, it was crystal clear to me at an early age that I wanted to be present for my kids as a father. I wanted to really experience the full of the drama of what being a father was. That's a very rock and roll, John. I know it isn't. I know it isn't. I know it isn't. But it isn't. No,

it isn't. But I think I was probably so damaged from it or not really trauma of losing your life. Yeah, I think that was it. And I just really felt that if I didn't know, and I was really on a, you know, a high with my life and my work and my career at this point, but I just thought if I didn't have a family, especially

with my wife, you know, and have children, and really put my time and energy into that, it sounds so sanctimonious. I don't mean to be sanctified. It sounds so, but it was really clear to me that that was important to me. I wanted to create what I didn't have. I chose a partner who has came from the contrasting background, who had that. And it was really

important that I live and my kids live in as much as a drama-free zone as possible where we could just, you know, breathe and go after what we want and have a good life. So, that was really clear to me and that kept me, that kind of kept me grounded, I think. I mean, though, how did you do that in the context of a career where

you have to go away and come back? It's not a nine to five thing where you drive down the street to an office. Yeah. At dinner time every day. I think it helped it in a way. I think because my wife traveled as well and worked for magazines, for Vogue and for Harper's Bazaar for years and still doesn't, not for them, but for other, other mags.

But I think it sort of enriched the relationship and I go away and I have friends all over the world that have these rich, creative sort of experiences. And I got to breathe and explore. And I came back and that was my story to tell. You know, that was my way of then giving everything when I was at home and everything when I was away. Being

this like citizen of the world. Yeah. And it was really, you know, it was good. I think it was inspiring for my kids as well to an extent. All they grew up seeing this dad who was traveling here, but Ali, my wife used to go away two months of eating. And I was like, I was like, I'm going to be here to do the collections and

go New York, Paris, Milan, etc. And I would try and stay at home. And we had help at that time, but I was really conscious of being there. And, you know, I really wanted to be a great dad. I don't know. I've shown by get to the hell. What are the ages now? You have one, you have son at NYU, right? No, he's back. He's he

he graduated. He was at NYU, Clive Davis School of Music. That's Cooper. He's 26. Aliets 23. And Marley is in New York. She's a little bit older than me. He's the only one the way and she's 19. So, you know, and, and, you know, they're, they're incredible kids. They really are. They're incredible people. They're better than what I could have expected. You know, I think it's

down to my misses more than me. I think I'm the crazy one. But they're amazing people. The best people I know. They're extraordinary people. Don't get me started. Because you know, I'll get my hand keys out. Yeah. Well, and, and so from a dad perspective, like, what do you think you did right? I don't know. I don't know. What didn't I do wrong? I think I

really don't know. That's such a big question. I think the way you treat your partner, they pick up on that. The way you treat other people, they pick up on that. I think the way you deal with stress, which at times, especially when I, we came back to America, you know, it's quite difficult for a little while. They pick up on that. And I think you

just, I think you really, and again, I think it's really important to learn to listen. And to, you know, especially now, especially when we're on phones all, you know, all day long and there's so many distractions, I think it's really important to sit down at a dinner table and listen and have them with other grownups when they're a little. And, you know, our house was the

house that all the kids friends came to sat around our table and they all felt very, you know, free and able to speak, you know, talk about anything they wanted to talk about because I had a friend when I was eight years old, who invited me to his house and his family sort of took me in. And they, you know, allowed me to do that. And

that was subconsciously that became our home. So I don't know what it is. I think it's partly who they are anyway, what they're born with. And it's not perfect by any means, but it's just a work in progress. And ultimately, ultimately it's about love, you know, it's about being there for somebody. I mean, my, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it it's, it's just being there and knowing when to step back and let them be them and let them express themselves and let them, you know, confide in you or not confide in you, given them that space and respect, you know, that's kind of what it feels like we

do. Yeah. And on, on some level modeling, yeah, what I'm quote, a healthy masculinity, right? And, and masculinity being kind of, you know, it's interesting. Like I want to dive into this idea of masculinity because what you do for a living and what you get paid to do is a version of modeling a type of masculinity that like spills out into popular culture. And then Mr.

Feelgood is a way of modeling like a, you know, and that's a voiceless thing. The ma is like, there's no, you don't have a voice in that. You have it. You have an image. You know, it's true. Right. Yeah. No, it's true. Yeah. So, so Mr. Feelgood is almost like the antidote. Yeah. I want to express myself and here's how I think about masculinity in a

healthy way in the context of a culture in which there's too much toxic masculinity. Like how do you think about that issue and how you kind of shoulder the responsibility for being an example of, you know, a healthy male in a world in which you think a lot about mentors and the kind of message that you're putting out into the world. I think it's, um, you

know, also with the work I do and did for so long, you know, it's, I didn't have a voice, but I did have a voice in a way between the clicks of the camera. I never, I rarely felt insecure because I wouldn't allow myself to feel insecure. Because I knew I was a center of attention. And perhaps I clothe that in a way that made me

who I was on set and made me want to get the approval to some degree and make everyone feel good. It's, you know, it's funny. I've just shot these five gentlemen for Mr. Feelgood and they're from all different walks of life. And it's incredibly, incredible how some of them are very awkward in front of the camera. And I understand that. But, um, and they all say,

wow, it's really hard work. I didn't realize how, how hard the work was. And it doesn't seem like it is from the outside. But when you're sort of firing on 12 cylinders and you really want to be present, it's, it's, it's, it's proper graft and proper work. They all confirmed that this last week, which is interesting. And so, but yes, I mean, Mr. Feelgood really was

a vehicle for me to use what I've learned to an express and learn more about having a voice and having a purpose and doing something which has, you know, foundations that hopefully will spill out in support of the people who are feeling lost, especially men, you know, it's, we try and make it. But it's not too woo-woo. We want it to be pragmatic. We want to,

I mean, at the moment, we're gratefully, you know, interviewing the fantastic actors. But I really want to, you know, I'm really interested in talking to people who aren't famous. I just, everyone's got a story and I just think it's really important to have a conversation. That's, yeah. I mean, you have an eclectic mix of people like you had Scott Callaway on, obviously, you know, cares a

lot about these issues. He's respect to young males and he's really happening. And even, you know, the architect who built the, what is that BB like that architect? Yeah. You built like, uh, right, Robert Downey Jr. And it's a, it's a sustainable building material. Amazing. Very cool. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. And they, you know, so, so I'm trying to get broader than that. And I

want more wellness. How do you like make that selection or curate that? Yeah. So you got something I think about as well. Like when you're thinking like, who can I get or who should I get? Like, I just know. In the evolution of this show, it went from me begging, borrowing and stealing just to convince anybody to sit down with me to now. Thinking more about

like who's, it's not like who, who wants to do it or who I can get. It's like who's the right person. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Well, for me, I mean, it's, you know, the beginning, it was just who on you. And then it was people that I really had my eyes on. And admired like Scott, like you. And just, you know, it is a case of

actually finding away. And I'm relentless when it comes to that. I'm very good at writing letters. I've got, I could have a whole book on the love letters. I've sent to people. And I mean it. I mean, you're really do. I want to sit down and talk to these people. And I think if you're persistent and I am. And if you, uh, if you think they'll

add value to the, the sort of, um, the big picture, then, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll just DM them. I'll find a friend who knows them. I'll find out over their agent is, you know, oh, there's some great people out there that I'm desperate to talk to. You know, that I really want to talk to. So you just find a way. If you've, you know, if

you've got the will, you find the way. So I think going back to the sort of masculinity thing. I think that's something that today I'm still trying to work with. And I'm trying to find, you know, you can't be all things to all people, but I'm trying to find ways that I can actually expose or not expose. I can celebrate, I like to say, that help

me and that, that's helped the audience at Mr. Feelgood. So I'm really looking to have those conversations and to learn. I want to learn, you know, I'm, my mom's 88. She's relentlessly curious. So she really is, you know, and, and I've inherited that. And I just, there's so much out there and, um, and there's so much I don't know. I really don't know. And I'm trying

to figure out the best way to live with the most amount of peace of love. And a growing kind of satisfaction that we're actually doing something of value. Does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. We're brought to you today by native. I presume since you're listening to this podcast that you're a health conscious person who probably thinks about cares about what you put in your body.

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where your emotions on your sleeve, which is, you know, kind of what I do. Like, you know, to be Gen X is to be disaffected and to be ironic and all of that, which we can be. Yeah. Right. We can turn that on. We're grown up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But reflecting on, you know, the generations that are that are coming up underneath. We, thus, I think

the idea like young young men, like it is a more confusing time. Like we grew up in an analog world. Yeah. Right. And we've, we're one of the last generations of people to kind of traverse for a analog to digital. Yeah. But our formative years were pre computer. Completely. Right. And now I think we're in a confusing state for a lot of men where there's expectations.

For them to, you know, be strong, be the provide like to kind of like inhabit the traditional sense of what it is to be masculine. And yet also to be the sensitive person, the person who goes to all the, you know, school events. And you know, on the weekdays at two o'clock in the afternoon or. And who, you know, is caring and like, like somebody who

has to fire on all cylinders, right. And there's an expectation level that I think is difficult for. Anybody to live up to essentially. And when you kind of step down into even the younger generations, who are dealing with, you know, how to date. And that's all digital now with these apps and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, this is something Scott Galloway talks quite

a bit about. Like, I think it's really hard. Right. And, and, you know, we're, we're at a certain age where we don't have direct experience with those sorts of things. So how do you think about, you know, lending a hand or being a mentor or communicating helpful information. To that person who is trying to navigate, you know, those, all of those landbikes. It's tough. It's tough.

I think, I think our sons have to, and their tribes have to learn to be vulnerable and. Be connected as a community. And to not have too many expectations. Because there are a lot of expectations on them. It is a different world. I think it's very difficult. I think, I think they're also very smart. A lot of them. And they can figure it out. And things

that I worry about for them, they aren't even worrying about. Because they're, if they're focused, if they, if they're fortunate enough to have something they love to do, have a purpose or a goal. Or be passionate about something. I think that helps them a lot to direct the focus and to move forward in the, as they go into life as a young adults. But you can't

manufacture that for anybody. No. Especially when you're in a group of people who are not in a group of people. You can expose them to lots of different things and just hope that something connects with them and lights them up in that way. Yeah. It's true. I mean, it's a, it's a work in progress. You know, and it's, it's, I think all we try and do

is be open, but provide a safe space where they can explore those kind of feelings and worries and advise them on what we know and what we've experienced in an ever changing world where they can then. Sort of bespoke it if they're able. And all my kids, personally, our kids are, you know, they're pretty, the greatest, really one of the greatest things of my life is

that my kids know who they are. And I think that's, you know, a lot more than I did at that age. The, I think the French they beyond on Sapeau are comfortable in their own skin. That's, that's like, you're on the, you're on the 10 year line. If you have a, yeah. Yeah. And I'm really, I, I, I stand back and I watch them and I

observe them in company and in the way they sort of address the issues of the day, their own personal challenges. And I feel really just so grateful that they've got that. And I think it probably comes from my wife's family side. But I think that's, that's a marvelous thing. That's a real blessing. I think it's tough out there. I really think it's tough out there. And

I by no means have an answer for you that's eloquent or, or rooted for you yet in all honesty. But I also want to engage in as we grow younger people into Mr. Feelgood. I want to bring them into their sort of fold and have them write for me. And a couple of them do already. And just sort of the idea of having sitting around a

table with these kids, you know, 12 men. I want you to do this with me at some point. But 12 really interesting men who can sit around and we can talk and we can listen. And I think community when you build community and especially of men, I think that's a really powerful thing. I think to sit into be listened and to be heard is a really

powerful thing. And especially in a circle of men who are who are trying to do the right thing, who are who are trying to calibrate this ever changing sort of world. I think that's really vital. But I certainly don't have the answers, but I'm. I'm determined to try and help and contribute in some way. Yeah. I mean, vital is the right word. I mean, I've been

lucky enough to be parts of groups like you know, recovery and also through other. There are putic modalities and it's been absolutely transformative for me. But I'm also aware that it's not the experience of most people, most men, right? And I think a lot of men suffer in silence. Yeah. And they just carry on and push it all down until something one day, you know, breaks

or explodes. And I think that's the more typical experience and to the extent that, you know, there are solutions for people who are in that state, like I want to be participating in, yeah, in that. Because I, you know, I think it's chronic. Honestly. And there is an epidemic of mental health disorders that, you know, it's not unique to men. But I think there is something

about men where it's not talked about to the extent that it should be and getting help is not as permissive as it should be. And it should be. And we should all, you know, we should take time to reach out to our community. And put the effort and the energy into building these sort of creating these situations where we can all exchange, where, you know, we

can sort of feel safe to talk about. I mean, the whole vulnerable thing. That's a really sort of mysterious one for me. I know it's important. And I know it's valuable. And I never really recognize my own acute vulnerability until I started doing Mr. Field. And I had episodes that consistently being accountable and having to do this after having had an agent who just said, this

is the flight. This is how much there you are. You know, and I, and I, I, I, I still, I'm still really curious about the whole vulnerable thing. And, you know, when to be restrained, when to be open, what value will that give the person I'm sitting with? You know, and I still, my Yorkshire roots are like, man up, man up, you know, don't talk. Well,

there certainly will be soft, you know, and all that stuff. But you won't survive. You won't survive. If you'll, you'll be a, you know, you'll, you'll self-medicate, you'll drink, you'll, whatever your drug of choice is, or you'll just implode. Yeah. And you'll freak out and you'll do something stupid. And I think we have to change that. Maybe it's an education. You know, maybe it's having people

like you and Scott, myself, perhaps, you know, going in and talking about this, actually delivering lessons on this sort of thing, you know, actually going into the education system. And I do think, you know, doing retreats with fellows with men is really good young guys and older guys. And I think there's a lot to be said for taking sage advice from those who came before us,

you know, even though they lived in a, in a, in a, in a more closed off sort of or a more one dimensional idea of masculinity. I, I was brought up to respect my elders. And I was lucky because when my parents divorced, I go and see my father. And he'd always do meals on wheels. And he'd take me around delivering food to the elderly. And

most of these guys had just come out and ladies had come out of the Second World War. They were the last. And it was fascinating to engage with their sort of stoicism and their dignity. And I think, you know, I learned a lot about listening to people then. And, and I think I think we have to do something about it. I think we have to engage.

I think we have to sort of join forces and, you know, create something that really does, because the important thing is a lot of people sort of start doing these things. But it's the, it's, it's, it's being there for the long ride, which is important. And especially in this day and age, when everything's so disjointed and quick and we're overcome with sort of information, I think

to be consistent is really a great quality to have. And I think, you know, if you're, if you're mentoring someone, you're in it for life. Yeah. You know, you should be and you'll reap benefits, you know, but, but really it's, you, you can't just do it for a day. You can't give a bit of advice and think it's done. You're have to be consistent. Yeah. And,

you know, set against a culture in which everything is a femoral. Like, everything disappears. Like, you know, tissue paper on fire. From one day to the next. Yeah. The idea of consistently showing up and that accountability piece. I think it's super important. And listen, you touched on listening. I mean, I think that is it the key cornerstone of everything. I think we've lost our, our appreciation

for listening. And I think we're seeing that in the, the denigration of the, national conversation and our inability to kind of, you know, sit with people who, who see the world differently from us as our information silos continue to separate increasingly. And it's a confusing time. Right. And to the extent that being vulnerable is somehow curative. It's also important to, you know, check your motivations behind

that. Mm hmm. That vulnerability because there is something called performative vulnerability that we're seeing on social media. And I don't think that that is helpful either in sort of like what is helpful to, to somebody else in, in how I communicate from a place of honesty and integrity versus let me tell you some crazy story that is horrific and embarrassing for the purpose of, of just,

you know, shock value or, you know, creating attention around yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I think, I think it's a day by day moment by moment challenge to be present. You know, to be really present with somebody, to listen to somebody to social media, man. I mean, it's, it's a tough one. It's a tough one. And it, it's, it's great in many ways. But, you

know, being a father of a daughter, you know, my boys aren't really, they're not at all involved. But my daughter's young and she's a brilliant. And, you know, to see what they go through really when they engage with it, it's, it's tough. You know, so I just think ultimately, we've got to keep being present and available and, and, and listening to people and trust that will

find the seeds of something that will help all of us benefits. I think all of us, whatever age we are, it's tiresome. It's exhausting. And I think we've just got to part of our lives have to be grounded part of our lives have to be for us to survive, for us to thrive part of our lives just have to be, to be connected on a really,

you know, authentic level of, of, of, you know, the only thing I know is love. You know, that's the thing that always comes back to me. The only thing I know is really the love I have for my family, for my friends, for nature, for music, for people who I admire. And that's sort of the one certainty for me. And I really don't have the answers,

but I try and go into the day every day. I really do with, with that in mind, knowing that I'll get through, knowing that I'll find a way, having hope with that, which a lot of kids struggle with, of course. And when I do that, when I overcome my fears, or my doubts, or my overthinking, or everything else, I mean, it always works. It always seems

to give me a energizes me in a way that I, that makes me feel good. Yeah. You know, Mr. feel good. Mr. feel good, baby. I don't know. I don't know. It's, it's kind of just come out of it. He really, you're a spiritual seeker though. Yeah. Right? Like I know that you're, you're, super curious about all different forms of, of spiritual wisdom. Were you, were

you doing a project with Sutgaru or a documentary or something like that? Yeah. No. Well, I did. I, I did a retreat with Sutgaru and, and you know, I was into yoga. I mean, it started very early when I was literally 12 years old at the school in England. They gave you a Gideon Bible. And at the back of the Gideon Bible, there was a calendar

scheduled to read a verse or 10 verses every night. And in a year, you'd read the whole thing. And I read it every single religiously, no pun intended, every single night. And I was really interested in that. And then we moved into a different house in my next door neighbors. There are three boys and a single mum and they were Jehovah's Witnesses. So I took on

being a Jehovah's Witness at the age of 12 or 13. I went door to door knocking on the door. You did? You were one of those kids. Yeah, I was. Yeah. I was. And he was, he was, he was, he was, my sister got into a car accident and needed a blood transfusion and that kind of, that kind of turned me away. Plus, I got to

14 and 15. I like girls. You know, and I was like, okay, this is a bit to, you know, to restricting for me. But I was naturally a seeker. And I am to this day. And, and, and so, you know, I, I did various things. I read many, many books on various religions and, well, Carl Young's and Buddhism and Zan and, you know, Hinduism, everything. I

was just really like a sponge wanted to take it in. With Sadguru, it was just really extraordinary because friend of mine, um, practice with him regularly. And she, she invited me to see him speak. And actually, when I saw him speak, I wasn't, didn't, didn't fix me, you know, it didn't, it was, it was a, a certain set of people. And I thought it was, it

wasn't all the, the Artifice around the, yeah, I sat at the feet of many. I don't, I don't, I'm not with soccer, but lots of other people from that kind of world in the universe. And there is something about all the, you know, energy around that person that's difficult to kind of get past. It was engage like, is this real? Yeah. Is this wisdom legitimate? Is

this an Artifice? Like what is actually going on here? Yeah. It was really interesting. I mean, during the yoga, I think we were doing it, you know, four o'clock in the morning. Getting up and doing it. I'm not very flexible, you know, my mum, a T. A. Can touch your toes after having both the hips done a week after having a hips. And I'm, I did

hot yoga for four years. I still can't touch my toes, you know. And that aspect of it was challenging. But also, you know, just trying to figure out what was going on. And everything that you say, it was the same thing. It was, it was interesting. And then I, I was really obsessed because I really wanted to talk to her. And I wanted to know more.

So I reached out to someone at own. And we were, preparing to, you know, I was trying to, I mean, opera's thing. Yeah. We were preparing to actually go and sort of, you know, get in there and have me find out about this and discover this and, you know, ask him questions, tough questions, I think. And then, I think discovery came and bought it out and

it all fell to pieces. And that was that. But, but, you know, my time with him. And I want to interview him. That's on the cards. Was extraordinary in many ways. You know, so you, you, you, you learn from every experience that I have and everyone who's sat in front of me. And, you know, there's no, there's no way. There's no one way. There's, it's, it's

a combination of everything that you absorb and the environment around you. And just trying to focus on the best of that to help propel you through another day. You know, I'll help you feel more equipped to help those around you. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm curious about what that looks like for you now. Like, what, how does that translate into a

daily practice? Hmm. You know what? I'm, or, or it doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't. And I'm, I'm, you know, I mean, you said earlier about when you feel challenged. You know, I'm presuming, tell me, correct me if I'm wrong that you get on your bike or you go for a swim or you go for a run. And that's when you feel, you know, I used to

do it sort of on my motorbike, but it's not working at the moment. You know, I did TM for two years religiously twice a day. And that was really, that started to get really good. But then I dropped it. You did, you got the mantra and the whole thing. Well, I got the man mantra. I did that. And then, when did you, where did you, who

did you do the training with? I did it in Santa Monica. And I didn't, I didn't, with bar broth. No, no, no, no. No, I did it with this one gentleman. It was actually sorry. It wasn't Santa Monica. It was, it was Beverly Hills. And I was really determined to make this a part of my life. And I'm a massive David Lynch fan. Yeah. And at

times it was wonderful because my boy's just naturally came and started to do it with me. And that was a really beautiful thing to have in our house to sit there for 20 minutes in silence. And that really opened their eyes to that sort of practice and those sort of learning those modalities to help them improve their sort of well-being. And then I dropped out and

then I forgot my mantra. I was like, what is it? It was some kind of about a year and a half. I was very busy, man. I was everywhere. But it was, it was an hour and a half. It was sort of, it was sort of sort of policy. Like when you forget your password, you can retrieve it. Yeah. Lockdown somewhere. Yeah. No, no. So that's

what, you know, so I sort of year passed. And I thought, I've got to get back into this because I've got to carve myself some personal space every day. Because otherwise I'm a headless chicken, you know. And so, and I think it was a Sanskrit word, the original one. And you're not allowed to say which one it was. Obviously. And so I went back to TMI,

contacted them. I said, could I, could you give me another mantra? They said, oh, you have to find the original guy who initiated you. So I found this, the guy who eventually he'd moved out of LA, he'd gone down south and I drove there, you know, sort of Long Beachway. And I went that way. And we went in and he sort of renewed and we went

through the whole thing again. And then he gave me a mantra. And it wasn't Sanskrit to troll. It was really rudimentary. It was like, you know, I'm not going to say, but it was there. It was a basic thing. And it, that made me realize that within that practice, it's really the word is just there to bring you back. It's just a grounder. It's not got

any magical, magical properties. It's just a grounder. And that just just works with the sort of neurochemistry of your, of the way your brain works and fires. So. But again, you know, it's, I carried for a while and then practice for a while. And then life took over me. And so now I'm trying to, you know, I'd look, I'm ready. To sort of get on that

thing again, you know, get on there. I want to, I mean, now literally I get up at five in the morning and I go and sit outside and I have an hour of quiet on my own. And I write and or I just, I'm just grateful. I just try and be grateful for my family, for a roof over my head, for food, for my children, for

my friends. And, you know, but I'd really, I need to, I do, I do feel a longing to sort of, I do feel a longing to, you know, have something that can be with me consistently forever, you know, that sort of magic practice or not magic practice. But again, it's, it's, it's owning the fact that you should look after yourself. You should look after yourself. You've

got, I mean, even in the shower, I'm like, I'm, you know, I'm 57 years old. Man, I've been lucky. And my body's, you know, I'm no, you know, nail model with a six pack. But I'm, but I'm, you know, the most successful nail model. No, but, you know, but I'm, I look at my body and it's a vehicle and a vessel. And I think, are we

lucky to be in this car, this vehicle for all these years? And it's really worked pretty well for me, given, you know, the amount of sort of hammering it's taken, I don't mean sort of through drink and all the rest of it. I'm talking about, you know, just different plane time zones, just the, the amount of energy that we put out into the world every day

and the things we deal with and the plates were spinning and the sort of forward motion of the momentum of life. I'm really amazed that, you know, and I'm really grateful. Touch word that I'm in, you know, good health. Yeah. Well, I think gratitude seems to come easy for you. That is a natural disposition for you. That it's, it's far more elusive for me. Is it

really? It is. Like I could use a gratitude accountability partner in the way that perhaps you could use a meditation. Again, the ability partner. And I really believe, I believe like I'm happy to be that person for you. Wow. Gratitude is not something I connect with naturally. It requires a lot of intentionality and effort on my part to really feel that in myself. But I am

very aware of trying to bring, trying to create integrity between how I'm living my life and, and how I'm expressing myself publicly in the work that I do. And I really think that for you, and this is a reminder to myself as well, that the greater alignment that you can create between those two things, like if you can really like dial up the meditation and the

self-care piece and all of that, it does translate into the like the success and the extent to which Mr. feel good will connect in a meaningful way with an audience is directly calibrated to, you know, how much you are living those principles in your own life. Right. And this is something that I'm really happy about. I think that's hard, right? Especially when you're up against it

and you would share like you were up late last night trying to get this thing completed and out and all of that, like I relate to all of that. But, and we get, we get like calcified or wed to like this, it has to be done like this. And I'm the only one who knows how to do it. And if I have to stay up all

night and whatever I'm managing, yeah. But like the the magic is in the letting go and in the empowering over the people and in the like kind of, the like prioritizing your self-care over like those little details that actually don't matter. Yeah. You know, that's a, that's a, it's tough. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's is I come. You see for me, I'm so grateful for you. I

really am. I'm so grateful for what you do in this world and the way you do it. And it, you know, I, I, you've been an enormous sort of pioneer and leader in what you do because you're so honest. You're so authentic and it surprises me that, you know, you're, you're challenged by that because I feel like you, you know, you should be. But when you

say that, I like, I get very defensive. No, I feel it. Yeah. So your body twitch. Yeah. I'm comfortable for me to know that what you've gone through and what you've done with your life, I feel that you should be uncomfortable being held out to, to being any kind of like ideal or, you know, paragon of any of these notions. Yeah. I hear that. I get

that. And that's a work in progress. Yeah. Well, I mean, your club, baby, I'm the same. I'm just trying to figure it out and trying to learn. I'm trying to balance. I'm trying to walk the walk, you know, I think it's really important to look after yourself. And I'm most of the time I'm running and doing other things, you know, and I'm not, I'm not prioritizing.

I'm trying to work out that discipline and to, to really accept it as something that I can only be at, I'm genuine value. If I live these principles, if I practice them and, and forgive myself when I don't, you know, when I fall, fall off, that's a massive thing. That's like vulnerability as self love, self forgiveness. I mean, self love. Saying that, you know, it's still

there's an echo there, a shadow of, you know, self love, you know, it's all about, you know, don't we saw selfish or don't we saw stupid talk about yourself flat. Come on. Crack on. And so I think it's, you know, we just got to, I just keep going and, and I want to get to a place where there's a little more control. But at the same

time, I understand that there's so little control. Really, you can only just do the best you can do. Yeah. So how do you balance the ambitions that you have for yourself creatively, professionally with Mr. feel good versus like being really grateful in the present moment and, and freeing yourself or unshackling yourself from a desire or, you know, a sense that it needs to be any different

than it already is. Cool. That's a big one. Because like your life's pretty good. Yeah, there's his mind. Yeah, no, it's good. But there's always room for growth. And you've got to make an effort. You know, you've got to, you've got to also, I think what we also have to do is have a bit more laughter, you know, in life. I think we have to get

lost a bit as well, but within the joy that's healthy and that's, you know, and I think that comes with being with people as well. I mean, I've got so many people I see who are so stressed friends and people acquaintances and everyone needs to just really relax a bit and have some fun and have a giggle, you know, I mean, giggle therapy. We should do

giggle therapy with some stand up guys, you know, and, and we've, we've got to, I've got to be, I've got to learn. And to let go more and allow for things to happen. And that is sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's not. But when I do it, generally, it's just energizing and it's brilliant. And you feel good the other day, the next day, you know, you

feel good about what you do. So it's a work in progress, a messy work in progress. And there's no, I've got no formula at the moment where a startup were grafting were moving. Sometimes I, you know, I question it. But I push through it because also I've got two other people that are working with this me and then this, you know, we're an outlet for a

lot of people in different countries now. And I think that's, you know, you've got to stay in the game and you've got to try and evolve in a way that becomes lean and more and more authentic and more and more a value. And I mean, real value. I don't mean dollars and cents. I'm talking about the real value of the stuff that we all connect with

and we're all looking for and we all need. Yeah. That's what I'm doing. I've got no, I wish I had better answers for you. But it's really, it's just really, you know, it's really, I don't even want to say we're up against it because I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to sort of put it in that label on it. But because

we're not, because we're here and we're lucky and we should be grateful because we've, you know, we're not in the trenches. We're not in the third trenches. We're out here living the best life we can pursue a dream. And an ambition and an intention. And I think we're, we should be really grateful just for that and for fresh air and, you know, for the ocean and

all that sort of stuff. But yeah, I'm a work in progress. I'm trying to do the best I can. I'm trying to, if, if something tells me in my gut that it's right, then I follow it, you know, and whether it's a conversation or, you know, an action or I just really trust that. And, and. Have you always trusted that or have you learned to trust

it? I think how do you know? When to trust it? That's a good one. My gut has been unreliable in the past. And the way I've thought about it is the, the trustworthiness of that gut instinct has a lot to do with it. It's back to that integrity thing. Like how much is the way in which I'm living matching up with the values that I aspire

to and have it? You know, if I'm out of balance with that, then my instincts are probably going to lead me towards a bad decision versus it's a bad decision. Wow. Wow. You're so self-aware, man. You're evolved. Only through making bad decisions and being in pain, I assure you. Yeah. But that's just to be aware of that and to have the support of your mentors, you

know, I mean, I wish I would love to have mentors. I would love to be in that group of people that that allow for every aspect of my character. You can, all you have to do is, you know, drink yourself into oblivion and destroy your life first. And then you will be welcome to the end. I guess. Well, I don't drink anymore. That's been over two

years now and that's helped in a way. Oh, tell me about that. Well, I just, I just, you know, no one drinks in our house. And my kids don't drink. And my wife doesn't drink. I mean, she's probably had five gin and tonics in all the years I've known her. And I wasn't a big drinker, but I, I could drink, you know, and it's part of

the culture I grew up in. And then when we went into lockdown, I found myself drinking a bottle of wine on my own every night. And apart from the fact that it made me snore, and that was kind of pretty obnoxious, I think, for my wife. I just thought, oh, stop. You know, give it a couple of days. So, and I think also, in all honesty,

I think I was grumpy and I think I was probably insensitive when I drank. And I wasn't as jolly and life and soul as a party of practice. Perhaps I thought I was and I realized it wasn't fair, especially when you're locked in, you're incubated in this small space. And we didn't know what was going on. So I stopped on the 14th of June 2020. I

think it was. And I thought I'll do it for a couple of, you know, days. And then it came to the weekend. And then 11 days later, it was, I think, you know, I was coming up to a birthday. And I realized that I haven't not drunk on my birthday over 40 years. I thought, that's weird. So I got through that. And then I just sort

of got into the room. The rhythm of it, you know, and I liked the idea that I had control over something. You know, that the benefited the whole family. And then when we started to open up, I went to a friend's house. We met, you know, with distance and masks and we met outside. And he has extraordinary wine and tequila. And he offered me both. And

I sort of was about to. And then I pulled back and said, no, let me see. You know, and it was fine. And since then, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's been fine. And I, you know, and it's, it's, and I, I don't know whether I've had any yeary commoments of, oh, this is what it's all about. Any epithanas, but it's, it was a control thing,

I think. And it was also out of respect for my family. And, you know, my kids don't drink. My boys don't drink. They don't, you know, which is extraordinary. Yeah. It was 12 hours drinking. You know, it is interesting that generation doesn't have the same relationship with alcohol that are generation. I've been out in lots of, you know, kind of bars on the east side with

the boys playing gigs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of the hip, you know, we're like a lot of 20 somethings are hanging out. And every time I look at Julian, I'm like, nobody's drinking. Or maybe like, you know, like maybe 10 to 15% of the people have a beer in their hand that they're nursing. And that's just not what it was like

when we were at age, you know, being out, right? It was, you know, I mean, I'm sure there's a whole litany of other drugs that they're more interested in. But the thing with alcohol is very different. Yeah. I mean, it was really cultural for us, you know, it's cultural. It was out there on films in rock bands. And, you know, it was just part of the

course of growing up and becoming a man, you know, eight pints. And then we at the whiskey, you know, and it was that kind of thing. And how, you know, I think there's probably, in my 40s, when my metabolism started to change drastically. There was an element of vanity as well that I thought, you know, I got to keep in shape for my work. And also,

I want to clear head. So you stop doing it. But we, we, we really, we really were born into a culture, you know, New York. It was rolling rocks as many as you can, you know, down in an evening. And it was all that sort of stuff. Which, what were your bars in New York when you lived there? Oh, I was, I mean, I was, Chica's

Locust was the club that I used to go to in Tribeca and Nells and Bass Spring Street lounge. You remember that one on the corner of Mulberry and Spring? That was a great afternoon drinking class. I never went there. Oh, that was great. It's all gentrified. Now it was a really good time then in the 80s. And Nells lucky strike, lucky strike Friday and Saturday. I

know it has. I just saw that last year. No, that was my, my best mates who followed me to America with DJs there. So I was, that was my spot. That was my spot. I love that spot. We had so much fun in that spot. You know, but, I mean, it was just the, it was, it was yeah, I think we've got to learn what our

limits are and how we want to create our life. Right. And so at some point, you make that decision. I don't know whether I'll, you know, I might drink again at some point. You know, it was, there was this romantic idea. I had that one day I could introduce my boys to a glass of wine. And, you know, we could do that. The sort of European,

the Europeans grow up drinking. And that's that. But, you know, I'm grateful that they're not interested. They're not bothered about it. I think it's amazing. I think they realize a lot earlier the value through sports as well, which has been amazing for them. But the value of really taking care of yourself. And I think that's a positive of what they've been exposed to. Having access to

sort of YouTube podcasts like yourself. And, you know, it's, it's really, it's interesting and curious and fascinating to me. The idea of somebody who isn't an alcoholic parting ways with alcohol. Like, as my, you know, I'm steeped in the world of, you know, people whose lives have been decimated as a result of drugs and alcohol and the process of, you know, what that breakup looks like

and piecing your life back together. But, but the idea of somebody who really isn't a problem drinker, like breaking up with alcohol. I think it's super interesting. And it's also a newer kind of cultural phenomenon that didn't quite exist. Like I had podcast with this guy Andy Romage years ago. He's a British, former professional football player. Oh, yeah. Turned banker and trader who was living that

lifestyle in London, where it's all about, you know, going out after work. It's all straight. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And had this epiphany that it wasn't working out for him and bucked the trend of his industry and decided that he wasn't going to drink anymore and created this community and movement called one year no beer. And he wrote this book about you. Maybe you've seen. Yeah. No.

Yeah. I guess it's a big thing in, in the UK. I don't know about it. But it's really oriented around. People who are not alcoholics, but whose lives can be improved by not drinking anymore. Yeah. All the benefits of that. And creating support for the non problematic drinker. Yeah. You know, have a healthier lifestyle. And there's something really cool about that. I mean, that's superb. I

haven't actually heard of that. But I'd love to look into that. I think, I think for me, it was out of respect for my family. And it was out of respect of the situation, this weird situation that we were all collectively in, you know, being on lockdown. And it was control. I couldn't travel anymore. I couldn't work anymore. I had to... And you're whole... That's how

you get your sustenance. Yeah. Yeah. That really is it. I go away. I get my fix of travel, of adventure, of other people, of culture. And then I come home and I try and deliver and employ that in being a good dad, and being a decent partner. And I think I just wanted to... I think I was... It became too habitual. And I think if it's

a negative habit, I think you have to challenge that at some point. Because otherwise, you're going to be in the same rut over and over and over again. And I just really wanted to... I wanted to have a bit of control over my life. And I think that gave me a goal, you know, to do it, to have a good day. And then I'll get through

a day. And yeah, I did okay. And in the morning, I wasn't snoring. I wasn't... You know, I wasn't sort of feel stinky or whatever else and had a clearer head in the morning. And then was able to... That point meditates. Because there was a bit more time. And I wasn't... That was just before I started Mr. Feelgood. I was just sort of figuring it out

with Pete where we're going, designing the ideas that we wanted to run with. So... I love that idea, though. I must read that book. I love that idea. And that was really brave of him. That was really brave to actually... I would say, from my point of view, to be in that environment, that sort of, you know, pack, brat pack, whatever you want to call it.

Yeah, I think that probably was the hardest part for him because that was the culture of his profession. Yeah, completely. That's probably true for a lot of people. Completely. And also, you know, in the old days, the football profession as well, it was, you know, there was, you know, half time and you had a cup of tea in a cigarette, you know. And then went out

and played in the 45 minutes. And now, of course, everyone's got so much information that the so conscious of being an athlete. And having to perform, you know, the top game, bring, always bring in their top game, but you, you have to look after yourself, you know. So... I think it's, I think it's really interesting. How long have you been married? How many years you've been

married? 1994. So what's that? 28 coming up September the 3rd, the day we'll walk to, bro, okay? Yeah. And now, I'll just sense, he was born two years to the day on our wedding anniversary, our second wedding anniversary. Yeah. So how do you keep that? Fresh and healthy. I think going away helps. And I think having your own interests, passions, helps, I think just respect helps.

I think holding hands, holding doors open. I think really supporting your partners talents and challenges and ambitions, you know. And really being respectful, you know. And sometimes it's really challenging. And sometimes it's really challenging. And sometimes it's like, you know, it's the same thing you do. Sometimes it's difficult, obviously. But I think it's just trying to communicate honestly and with respect. And with affection. I think

affection is really important. You know, I think it's, God, you're making me a bit emotional. I think it's really important to hold hands and to be grateful and to recognize. Because they go for changes, as we go for changes. We're not the kids we were when we're twins. We're sort of, you know, we're not. And you know, all sorts of things happen. And you've just got

to be open and present and be kind. You know. And I think, I think you should ask Alison this really. I think I think I'm fortunate because I've got someone who's pretty steadfast in who she is. And doesn't question things that I questioned a lot more when I was younger than I do now. It's just so consistent. And I think she's taught me, especially in the

last few years, to really be open and honest about my own shit, you know, calling me on my own shit. And I think, as I've wrestled with that, my ego's wrestle with that. But really, there's a part of me. My nature is harmony. My nature is wanting to, not be in conflict. I'm sort of, I'm willing to, you know, be there and learn. And, you know,

it's not a male and a female kind of traditional, you know, archetype. It's a real, we're a working team. And we are a working team. And our kids see that. And, you know, they know what's come to me for. And they know what's come to their mum for. And she's an extraordinary mother. I mean, she's extraordinary. She's an extraordinary mother. She's an extraordinary human, but she's

an extraordinary mother. And I kind of, I see that. And I see how that's matured and developed over the years as we have. And it really is. And it's just, you notice it. And I just, in awe of that kind of natural intuitive, instinctual, motherly bond that she has with our kids. And there's been times when I've been, you know, a little, little victimy, what about

me? And I'm like, Dad, you know, and stuff like that. But she's sort of without really going into the ethereal and the spiritual aspect of life. She's, she just kind of, she's okay. You know, she's, she's secure in that way. She's so, she's exceptional. But she's so regular and consistent. And it's just a really, that's been a massive gift to me in my life. And I

respect that. And I honor that. And I think it's a case of, you know, keeping the affection alive, keeping the, the physical aspects of life is really important to me. That sort of intimacy is really important to me physically and, and mentally. I think it's, I think it's honor. I think it's just honoring somebody trying to do the best you can. And sometimes I'm rubbish. But

I hope most of the time. I'm, you know, my, my intention. Is good and honorable and, and, and I think you just have to even in the madness of what we do and now work and the world and everything else. I think you have to take time and we, you know, tonight we're going to a movie. We're so excited to go and go to a movie.

And, you know, and that's really good. We haven't been to a movie together for about six months, you know, because we've been too busy. So it's finding that time and we go for a walk every day. But the kids come with us if they're there and the dog, you know, and I think that's a really nice thing to do just to, okay, let's go. Let's get

out of the house. Let's get away from this place and let's just together. Sort of just take the air and take a nature. Yeah. All really basic things. Real basic things. Yeah. Just, you know, and I think, and you do it over and over again. Also, you know, her parents are, you know, 18, eight and 89 had done 89. I mean, they've, you know, they've been

in my life for a long time. And, and she grew up in a healthy, she grew up in it. So that's that modeling. Yeah. Made her a healthy person. Yeah. Really. But just look at her. And look at her. Maybe she'd be a good friend to your kids. Yeah. It does. And they, and they are very close to their grandparents, even though they live in Yorkshire,

and our kids are over here in California and New York. And my mum as well, who's 88 and is great. But you know, they, they really grew up with that. What we lived here, Alison and I, we moved, we were, I was here for 12 years between here and New York and Ally lived with me in LA, and then when Cooper was born at nine months,

we moved back to England because we wanted them to be around their grandparents. And I think the grandparents were really sort of involved with them and really made an effort, you know, and every kid, every grand kid, I think there's 11 of them all, all together between Ali and her brothers, it always got a card and always got the same amount of money on that. They're

very consistent. So she had that. They're so fair. And, you know, every day they do the telegraph crossword and they're very active in, in sort of their respect for each other, the way they move around and, and, and delight in each other. And I think that's still, which is because my, Papa know her, my father and I, it's just, I mean, he's like, he's, he's gone

from being at a lawyer all his life and a golfer, massive golfer and, you know, presidents of several clubs and, et cetera, et cetera, very traditional English solid background. Who never, they always say, I taught him how to hug. Because, because he's, he in his retirement and as he's gone older, he's just literally become like a Buddha. And he's, he's, I mean, a Buddha in a,

you know, in a very nice suit kind of thing or a very nice shirt and tie impeccable. But he's just got this joy about him and this freedom and this liberty and this warmth now, which is, it's just infectious and it's beautiful. So I think having Alison had that and my kids had that as an influence in their life. Really sort of influenced the way we

go about it in some way. It's beautiful and positive rare. Yeah, it's fantastic. Yeah. One of the things, this is, I mean, kind of the last thing I want to talk to you about, one of the things that I've been spending a lot of time thinking about and, and also trying to improve in my life is friendship, especially at our age. Like, and for guys, like

back to kind of mental health with men, I feel like women are, are naturally disposed to prioritize their friendships in a way that, that maybe guys aren't to like make a blanket, you know, stereotypical statement. But I've just noticed that I've allowed busyness and also being a parent and other things that are important to me to supplant, you know, how I, I practice friendship in my

life. And I think living in Los Angeles makes it difficult because everything's so spread out. If I was living in London or New York or place like that where, you know, sort of moving around and, and being a social animal is, is, is a more kind of fluid and accessible experience than it is living here. So how have you, you know, thought about or, or, you

know, maintained friendships in your life? Like, how do you think about that? I just, it's just really vital to me. I think it's so important. I've got a friend, you know, I've got this friend who I've known since I was eight years old, came from the same place as me. His was the house that his parents allowed me to go on a Saturday and watch my

first video. I see my first video machine, you know, and, and feel really safe there. And he's an extraordinary guy. I worked in factories, very working class. He and his wife adopted a little boy. They had a natural kid. They fostered kids. They adopted this little boy, Brett. And I think he was nine months old and Brett then was then diagnosed with brain cancer and for

an 11, 11 years. They took him all over the world and they look, you know, and they. They're kids and their capacity for love and for openness and for care of other people just blows me away. So he's a friend that I've remained in touch. I sent him a birthday card every year since we're 12. And I always remember and I, and he didn't send me

one until I hit 50. And now he gets me before I get him. I think with friends, I think we, I think if you've got a connection, I think you make an effort. You know, I really care about the men in my life. I really care about them. And I want to sit them down and I want them to be able to hang out and not

feel they have to talk. I want them just to feel that they're loved. I want them to feel they're respected. I want them to feel that they're inspiring because they all are. They've all got character parts of their character that's really important. So I think you do make an effort and we get busy. We're so busy. And I'm already thinking about two of my friends that

I want to talk to, you know, and I need to, I haven't spoken to them for a few days, but I always make an effort. And I think, I think it's really important to do that. I think it's, it's vital to us. You know, I think it's, you've got to have someone to go and talk to. And it's funny. The ones, some of my friends, I'm

thinking of one in particular, who has brought up a very English, you know, just, you know, eaten and Oxford and that whole, you know, sort of class boarding school the whole nine years. And he's a kickass mover and a shaker who's responsible for some of the entertainment world's greatest, greatest, most successful movies. And when I sit with him, having known him 30 years, and I really

want to see him because he's part of the village that helps raise my kids as I hope I do with his. It's extraordinary how open he is, how vulnerable, how honest, how candid he is when we're together. And I think it's important to me to be able to see him. I think I provide that avenue for him. And it's not a conscious thing. It's just something

that's developed maturally. There's a trust. There's a trust of safety. There's a trust, you know, and I mean, and he's, you know, I know he values that. Am I value that? And that's our time. So if it's a coffee or breakfast together, you know, or it's a text, you know, I tell him I love him all the time. I tell all my friends I love them

because I do. And I think that's really important to, you know, there's nothing sissy of that. There's nothing effeminate or too sensitive about that. I mean, I, and if people think there is, I don't care. I mean, I could just share from my own personal experience with you. You're so generous with your time and your words, like when I was in London, and I was staying

at our usual friends flat, and, you know, I would take a picture of a, of a, I would see like a Hockney, and I know David Hockney, and I'm here in London. And then you would send me five paragraphs. On like all the places I should go and what's magnificent about London and make sure you go here and with such a, like a generosity of spirit,

you know, that I think is rare and, and, and beautiful. Oh, man, I bless you. I just, I, I, I hope it's not rare. No, I hope it is rare. Well, if it is rare, then we've got to, then, then it's about us just pushing it a bit and making sure our friends are okay and make I do that because I'm so grateful to you for

what you do. And it's just you're in my town. And I just want you to see the best, you know, I'm a brilliant tourist guide in New York, LA and, and London. And, and, and I love it. I, I thrive on being able to show people and a different side of things. And so those things I send you is just knowing who you were, who you

are, having read your book and having gotten to know you're over the couple of, last couple of years. It was just natural for me to want to share that because whether you do it or not, you've got it now. And next time you're there, you can take your bike. I only did like maybe one of them. It's okay. Two things, two things you've got to do

is one, you've got to take a bike ride around Richmond Park. You've got to sneak through the gate under a full moon. You've got to do that. That'll just be so good for you. I think. And the other thing is you've got to swim in the sort of the baths in Hampstead. You know, you got to do that. I thought I was going to make time

for I know. Well, you will do make it happen. You will do. All right. I think, I think it's, I think, you know, I think in a way, when you go to all the support you've had through your life with your challenges, don't you feel a connection and a friendship and a transaction in the most positive way with the people that you stand within meetings or.

Oh, for sure. You do. Yeah, of course. But do you just sort of leave that and that's, you know, you can't compartmentalize that or do you are presuming you work with as a mentor for people? Not in any kind of formal way. Right. I mean, there's people in recovery and that's a separate thing. But just in terms of like, I wouldn't say I'm formally anybody's mentor,

but I try to be generous with my time. Yeah. My maybe not advice, but, you know, experience based whatever I can share that can be helpful to other people. So I do put, I put time and energy into that. And that those are like daily text messages. Yeah. Lots of different people for the most part. But like, French. A occasional phone calls. Yeah, but for instance,

when you, when I reached out to you and said, sure, have a chat, sure. Have a catch up. You come back from England I'd been in Europe as well. It was just, you know, I didn't know, if you had time. Because I presume like me, you know, you're, you're very busy. And I also respect that you need your time out and you want to go cycling,

I presume, and that you want to have that time to just sort of, you've got a lot going on. So I respect the fact that you're a very busy man. But we met right. And I had no idea. That this would be the fruit of what we sat down. I just wanted to see you. Because I really wanted to see you, you know, and it, to

me, it was those sort of things, whether they're spontaneous and usually when it's spontaneous, I find it's even better. And it's more inspiring. Just a, that's the magic of friendship, you know, sitting down and having a conversation like we're doing now and just being able to learn something, be challenged, you know, feel warm, feel safe, you know, and know that the person's that opposite you, and

you do this so well, it really has your best intentions at heart, you know, and that's a, that's a beautiful thing, man. That's got such power to support and inspire. And, and as an example, as well, to my kids, you know, when I go and see my friends, and I come back with an idea or some kindness in an interchange or something that I hadn't recognized,

but they're good or bad. I taught very frankly with my, my family and my kids, my, my boys, especially my daughters in LA, sorry, in New York. And, and that just cements the, my reason and my desire to actually keep doing this, because it feels good. I'm sorry. I'm not, I'm, I'm really not me. I'm not, I'm not, it's not a commercial, but it really, it

really does feel that's coming out a lot more, actually, which is really funny just in my day to day. And it's not conscious. But it's interesting how this thing that was there. And now it, I'm 100% in it. And it's literally, I'm not sure what I'm doing, I'm not sure what you're doing. It's really manifesting from me. And that's a, that's in a way is, it's,

it's a lovely way of sustaining oneself, even though I don't consciously choose to do that. But it is, it is a case of, I think, you know, if, if you feel good, if you vibrate at a certain level, if you can push yourself when you don't, I mean, I thought about it coming here. And I actually mentioned it to my boys. I don't say this, don't

say that. And I'm like, I don't want to say anything. I just want to be free and I want to be open to you because you deserve that. Because of the work you do. And I said, I kind of feel like rich, because I was never a long distance runner. I was a sprinter. I was a very good sprinter. And, and, and when I've tried it,

I think I've done, once I did a 5K, and that was it. And it took me, you know, three and a half hours and whatever. And I think that it was an interesting idea. I thought, okay, I'm feeling a bit nervous because I want to give you everything. And I want to all the different things you, you know, doubts or whatever you have when you come

into a situation. And, but I wanted to be mostly, I wanted to be honest and I wanted to be present for you. And I thought, I wonder this feeling, I'm not going to, I'm going to go with it. I'm going to go with it. Because I trust that it's going to be beautiful. And I trust that there's going to be some, some, something real and come

out of it. But I did think about you when you're running. And when you're on the 22nd mile or whatever it is. And it's really fucking hard work to push yourself off from my perspective, to put even at 5K, to push that foot in front of the other. And this is what I think. I've got from your book as well. And just to keep going, keep

going, get to the other side. And I thought, well, it's almost to say mentally, if you can, you know, utilize that skill and that mindset to just push you a little bit further mentally or in the public speaking or whatever it is. Then that's what you got to do. You got to chip away at that mountain, get that higher and get a bit higher. And just

it really is a case of will and a case of applying yourself. And, you know, not giving into those little, you know, doubts or traces that make us lose what we often might win by failing to attempt. I think Shakespeare said something like that. You know, you've just got to keep cracking on. So I think I just took us on a whole tangent. Yeah. But I'm

sorry. No, it is, it is true. And, you know, the, the magic is in the chipping, right? Yeah. And I think about the, the grand gestures in the, you know, the, the sort of sweeping successes, etc. But it's really the, the, you know, unromantic and unhurious, little chipping away. Every single day when no one's looking. Yeah. It is. And like any, anything worthwhile demands that. And

you're in it right now. Yeah. And I mean, I wouldn't you call it. I think a couple of years ago, you're in the fire. Yeah. I think you're in the fire. I think you said Julie had said something like that. And I was like, Oh, please let me be on the fire. And I knew it was just the beginning. Then when I interview you, so I

thought, Oh, my goodness. I really relate to your story. I really relate to different, different colors and paints, but it's the same sort of basic thing. You know, we're, we're grafting. And it's in, and, and, and, you know, we've got to get through. We've got to keep going. And there's some days where I'm overwhelmed. And I feel like I just want to, you know, hide away

or get an emotibike and just get out into the desert and sort of lose myself or drink. And I think now he's just got a, you got to let it go. You got to keep going. And, and then it sort of takes on its own momentum. And you, and you think, actually, I actually made it. I made deadline last night. Okay. I managed to put all

these things together. And look how good it looks and look how well it's written. Not me. I'm not saying just me, but it's, there's an honesty and an integrity there. And so that, you know, that gives me a little more confidence. And then I'll, but I keep at it. I keep at everything. I'm, I'm, I'm definitely apart from long distance running. Maybe one day you'll take

me terrified, but I, you know, maybe till my lungs are like, you know, I get my back. I know. Are you okay? Yeah. Yeah. And, but also, you know, you obviously cut this out if you want, but you are a friend. And, and you are someone, you're going to have to take this for a second. You're someone I admire tremendously and inspired by you tremendously. And

the fact that you give me time as well. And I, like we did it when we met for a couple of juice, you know, that's just brilliant. That means so much to me. And it inspires me. And then I, you know, it's a ripple effect. And that's, I just think if we brought more kindness and presence and sustained support into the circle of people that we

interact with, whether it's your audience or whether it's your family and friends, I think that's a really positive move forward. Well, I appreciate that. And I'm certainly all about that. To the extent that I can, you know, be available to you to help you in that regard. And I love that idea that you mentioned earlier about the round table. Yeah. I think there's something really special

about that. So. There really is. And I've already got a, there's a, there's a list in my head. It was interesting. I was shooting and writing to about Nikolai. Nikolo. Sorry, Nikolo, Bini. The architect. Yeah. And he's an extraordinary man. He's full of passion and life. And, in affection, his Italian, but he grew up in Australia and then came to California. And, you know, he's got

the best of all those cultures and really warm human being. And we went to shoot him, take photographs of him, his house. And I'd interviewed him in January. But, you know, we, we had to hold off for one reason or another. And, uh, at the end of it, there was just myself and the photographer in his home. And he'd done this lovely plate of Italian foods,

you know, Jesus. And, um, hamza, et cetera, et cetera. And we sat down and the conversation we had afterwards was just so incredible and so beautiful. And Alex, the photographer who's probably 30 or 32, who really wanted to shoot Nick, Nick, because he just, he'd met him once before and loved him in his energy. We sat down and we had this conversation. And the next day

I said, I said, it wasn't that wonderful. What's didn't feel good? And he was like, oh, absolutely. I said, and the pictures are amazing. You know, we did it like in an hour and really good pictures. You know, we really great. We really captured his soul. And he said, yeah, we really was amazing. He said, but what was most amazing was the conversation we had afterwards.

And that was a kid who's 30. And it just made me think that I know like 10 men that I know that I've such, you know, respect for. And I just thought, we should sit down and we should all talk about this. We should film it. We should, we should make it natural and real, but useful to other kids and to other people as an example

of what can be done in a masculine way. And you know, we're not, you know, in a really elegant, true, real way, have a conversation. We all need to, you know, listen and talk more. Of course, right? That's why we're both doing what we're doing. Yeah, we are. And I bless you. Well, bless you to be continued. To be continued. The conversation is just one conversation.

Yeah, right on. You're more beautiful on the inside than the outside. I do consider you a friend. I appreciate the energy that you brought to this today. And please consider me, you know, at your service for anything that you need in service to what you're trying to express and manifest. Because I think it's really cool and special. So thanks, John. Bless you, man. Bless you. I

really appreciate you. Thank you. All right. Cool. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive. As well as podcast merch, my books, finding ultra, voicing change and the plant power way, as

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you back here soon. Peace, plants. Namaste. you