Fueling Performance With Play: Ultra-Runner Mike W

The Rich Roll Podcast. There's so many people that I see like, wait to do something big and then something gets in the way or they don't have the help to do it anymore and like, sees the opportunity, sees the moment because you never know what's going to happen. Runners assemble because on the show today is a 217 marathoner, a world record holder, a transcon finisher, and

quarantine backyard ultra-winner, Mr. Mike Wardiant. I want to showcase for people that it is possible. I didn't come from a big endurance background. I didn't know any of these things when I first started. Mike has accomplished a staggering amount as a runner over the years. He's run seven marathons and seven days on seven continents for which he set the world record. He ran across America. He

holds FKTs all over the globe from D.C. to Israel. He even completed a race wearing a Spider-Man costume and oh yeah, he's done all of this while holding a full-time day job and spending time with his wife and young children. And so like, I hope when people see me now, they're like, well, it's that dude with like the family and the job and you know, all

these other commitments can do it like maybe I can do it too. In today's conversation, we discuss how he started running. We talk about setting world records, his experiences running across America, and how he balances all of his hobbies and his athletic accomplishments with his family and his full-time job. And it's coming right up, but first. Okay, it's an absolute pleasure to have Mike on the

show. Super fun to talk to. I'm grateful. He made the time to come sit down with me and I hope this episode gives you wisdom and practical tools regarding endurance, motivation, time management, and just being a lifelong learner. You don't have to go fast. You just have to keep going and you have to want to keep going. If you, you know, keep doing the little things,

the big things happen. This is me and Mike Wardian. Right on. Well, let's just get into it. It's super nice to have you here. I'm so excited to talk to you. Thanks. I don't even know where to begin. Like your resume is so ridiculous. Like there's no way we can go through like all of the crazy accomplishments. So we're going to try to just, I don't

know, feel our way through this. But I want to begin with DC. I'm from DC. I know. And you live in Arlington. Are you from there? Your parents live there, right? My parents are from Oakland. So a little bit further out and you're from across the river. Yeah, I was from, I grew up in Bethesda. Yeah. So I was just in Bethesda last night. Oh, wow.

I mean, Bethesda now is like a city compared to when I live there. Like when I was going to school there, it was before the subway even had made its way out there. Yeah. I feel like that's like the red line, maybe. I don't even know. My parents live in Georgetown. Now they moved to the fun part of town after I went away to college. Yeah,

it's, that is a really nice part of town. Yeah. But it's a great running city. It's such a good city. Yeah, for running. But I guess you weren't running then, right? No. Uh-uh. You were just swimming all the time. Yeah, I was swimming running came later. But I always enjoy when I go back to DC. I mean, I stay with my parents in Georgetown. And then

I can get, you know, right down onto the towpath or do the loop around the bridges or hit Rock Creek State Park. All of your kind of background stomping grounds. Right. Well, and I would suggest one, the next time you're there, it's a thing called the Potomac Heritage Trail, which I don't know if you're ever been on. I don't think so. Maybe. No, what is that?

You would know. So it's pretty awesome. So you can go right across Keybridge, uh, loop down to like Rose about Island. Uh-huh. And then you just go along the river. And there's a trail that goes all the way out to like, I have to part of that. I've gone out like around Haynes Point. Yes. Yeah. But that's actually a little bit different. Yeah. So like, that's

if you, like, kind of stuck on the bike trails, but this is like dirt. And there's like waterfalls and like roots and rocks and like, Oh, shit. Yeah. No, I definitely haven't done that. Yeah. Yeah. You, it's one of my favorite runs in the world. And it's right there, uh, right across the bridge from Georgetown. Yeah. Well, you'll have to provide me that route. So I.

Oh my God. Yeah. I'm happy to take you to one of the things that I think is so interesting and distinctive about who you are and what you do is that you combine so many disciplines. I mean, it's one thing to be an elite athlete at the top of sport. It's another thing to, you know, kind of go off and do FKTs and all these sort

of stunty sort of things that you do. But then on top of that, also to have like a robust professional career and have kids and a family like combining all of these things seems so herculean like such a monumental task. And you seem to do it with a lot of like, grace and ease. So before we even get into like all the accomplishments, like, how do

you, you know, how does that jigsaw puzzle work for you? Uh, I think, I think the biggest thing is I really want to do it. Like, I, I feel like I've always wanted to kind of meet my obligations and still like chase these like big audacious dreams and goals. And so I think if you don't want to do it, like it's, it's almost impossible to do

it. And, and I think a lot of people come up with reason to why they can't do something. And I look for more reasons why you can do something. And so like, for me, I, I don't know if it's the same with you, but like every time you like went to the next level, you know, you'd always have people that were like, Oh, you can't do

it because of this or this. Like I remember when my wife and I got engaged like all my running friends were like, Oh, you're running is going to go down hill. Yeah, like it's, it's for sure. Like you're not going to have as much time to train with us anymore. And, and it only got better from there. And like the same with like when you have

kids, it's like as soon as you have kids, like you're not going to be able to be here. And, and then I'd rock up with like two kids in a Bob stroller. And we'd be running like six 30s, you know, 10 mile run around the monuments or whatever. And that's just, you know, how you got to get it done. If you want to do these things,

like, you have to put your head down. And, and for me, it was like, you know, getting up early. And then figuring out ways to like, I knew I had to go to work every day. So like, instead of driving, I started bike commuting. And then from there, I started run commuting. And then I just wanted to make it happen. Finding the solutions always looking for

the solutions. Yeah. But when you're, when you're like when you're plotting some, you know, audacious goal, like running across the United States, etc. I mean, obviously that's a family decision. Oh yeah. Like how does that look? You sit down with your wife and you're like, here's what I want to do. Yes. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. So I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, my wife's Jennifer and she's amazing. Um, but, you know, first, I mean, there's so many different aspects to go into that. And originally, it does come

down to that. Like, Hey, I want to, I want to chase this thing, you know, when would be a good time to do it. And like, and you probably know this because you've talked to a lot of people, because I've listened to all your conversations to people that have done this. And you know, usually the best time of year is like March or maybe late February

or like end of August, September. And like for me, like what work? It just doesn't work. Like the end of the cargo fiscal year is September. Like that's when the government does all their business that they're going to do. Uh, and they got to spend all their money. So I can't do like August, September, because I know it's don't have enough time. And then the kids

spring break was in August or I'm sorry in April. And so she's like, well, you can't miss spring break. So like my time was when I get back from spring break with the kids until I'm done, right. So like, we looked at that. And then I had to cycle back like a year from that. And then I had to hire somebody for a company that I

work for to cover for you to cover for. I was wondering like, like, I know you're a partner in international shipping shipping brokerage. Maritime. Like, I don't even know what that is. It sounds very Jason born. Yes. Import expert. Yeah. Oh, okay. What's actually happening here? Yeah, totally. In DC, you know, yeah, right. Proximity CIA. Like, you know, my conspiracy mind is yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I have a lot of passport stamps. Um, no, it's, um, so we do humanitarian food age shipments. Um, so if you ever see stuff for like world vision, um, save the children, food for the hungry, uh, those hyper programs and we do shipments from the US. And it's kind of export, um, additional grains that are coming from the farmers that are being shipped overseas and

they're used for like feeding programs. Or monetization. Cool. Yeah. So it's really cool. And it's a job that I kind of started really at the bottom, like as the secretary, um, kind of like get your foot in the door, go for like running around, like getting people's sandwiches and then kind of work my way up. And now I'm one of the owners of the business. That's

cool. And they're cool with you, like going off on these tangents. Yeah. For a couple of hours, long as somebody can cover your workload in your absence. Well, and I was actually working from the road too. So like, you know, there were a couple days where I'd come in after running for like 20 miles and be like, oh, I got to knock some, you know, deadline

out or something. Wow. Um, which was, was definitely stressful at times, but it was, you know, that's. If you want to do the thing, you know, you got to, you got to be prepared to work. Sure. Sure. So it makes sense now that you raise money on your transcon run for world vision. Yes. Given that. That's your sort of dovetails in your career. And I know

Josh, your manager, who's here right now, like, he's been involved with world vision forever. Yeah. He really has. And it's, it's cool because I got involved with them. Maybe 2017. One of the things I did was I ran seven marathon seven days on seven continents. Right. And if you won that, you got a $15,000. And I was like, oh, awesome. You know, like I can use

this to help, you know, offset the cost or whatever. And they're like, it's for charity. And I was like, oh, okay. Even though I'm not going to be able to do that. Even better, I can use that to do some good. And so that's when I first got involved with world vision. I donated that money to world vision. Then. And I saw what a good job

they did with it. And I was like, Hey, if I'm going to run across the country, I'd like to do it for, you know, a good cause. And we were able to raise, I think, over 120,000 dollars for world vision, clean water projects around the world. Amazing. Yeah. It's so cool. Yeah. Well, I want to get into the transcom. But before we do that, let's sort

of backtrack. And look at your resume. I mean, so overwhelming all the things that you've done 2008, 2009, 2010, US 50K champion, 2008, US 100K champion, 50 mile champion for the US in 2011. I mean, there's so many like wins and like all this crazy stuff, go be desert 400 K. Then you did the 10 marathons and 10 days on all seven continents. You have the,

you still have the record for the seven marathons on seven continents. I do. Yeah. I do for now. So averaging like two 45s or something like that. I think I did. Yeah. Including like I have the record in Antarctica for the fastest marathon ever run in Antarctica. It was like two hours 54 minutes. How do you even do that? Is there a road? Like, what does

that look like? Dude, it was so crazy. So I didn't know. So we flew down there to Union Glacier. And it's actually surprisingly like Antarctica is at elevation. So you're kind of at like 3000 feet, which for a lot of elite athletes, that's not that high. But for coming from DC, like that's kind of high for me. And it was a Chilean camp. ALE was the

name of the company. And basically they had like a 10 K track that they had plowed around the campus. And so it was kind of groomed snow, but hard packs snow and ice. Yeah. And. It was pretty flat until you got to the last like 3K. And then it went down this like dip. And then it was like straight uphill to the start finish area. So

you just did that kind of like four times. And you have to, do you have to put spikes on your shoes? Or do you wear a normal like trail shoe? Or actually, yeah, that was a really good. So I had all those questions too. And I wore a normal, I run for Hoka. So I ran in the Hoka Stinson at that time. And then I ran

in the first time I ran in the first time I ran in the Evo Mothati, which is a trail shoe. So basically just a regular trail shoe. And when you fly in, you have to then wait until the weather breaks and find your window. Pretty much they look for a window, weather window. And so you kind of muster in the first time it was in Punta,

or rain us in Chile. And then we flew in. And the second time it was in Cape Town. And when you look at the record, is it, is it, is the record established based on the first upon how fast you run these seven marathons? Or is it the total elapsed time to do all seven? Like the travel in between and all of that and like knocking

them out as quickly as possible? So the record in Antarctica was just on that one leg. And then the total time is the time for each race, I think, the way that it's done. Because like you wouldn't know like when you're going to, you basically still have to finish all. And I think it's 168 hours maybe is seven days. And you start to finish it all

within 168 hours. But like if you get a bad connection or something, I don't think they'd want to take that away. Yeah, I got you. Yeah. Where does all of this begin? Because you didn't start off as a high school track and field athlete. Or anything like that, right? No, not at all. I didn't have that kind of background at all. I grew up playing a

sport called LaCross, which you know is a sport called LaCross. Well, for a lot of people, I guess don't know. Yeah. I mean, I'm trying up where we grew up. That's what kids did. Yeah. I mean, it still wasn't one of the most popular sports. I'd still say football and baseball and even soccer was probably more popular. But now it's like, you know, there's a professional

LaCross league. Yeah, Paul Ravel. Yeah, totally. Yeah, dude. It started that league. Yes. Yeah. He's a stud. It's cool what he's created. It'll be interesting to see whether it can truly capture American audience fascination. Yeah. I mean, there's like network TV now, the games and everything. And they've really him and his brother done a lot. They really have. Yeah. And what's cool is like when I

was growing up, like if you wanted to see LaCross, you'd have to get maybe ESPN 2 would be like one o'clock in the morning. And I'd be like going down and putting the VCR tape in to like watch Syracuse play like, you know, Cornell or something. But you played Division 1. I did. Collegiate LaCross at Michigan State. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So and so that was my

dream growing up. Was to play Division 1 and to just see how good I could get at the sport. And Michigan State, I'd say it was Division 1, but it was kind of like not the top tier. So, you know, I wasn't playing at Hopkins or Syracuse or Degree UVA or Princeton, even at that time was really good. And I got recruited to play in Denver,

but like Denver wasn't even big then. But it was kind of a similar story to you in that like, I got recruited, but I didn't get like I wasn't like getting money because there was like one scholarship that they split like a couple different ways, right? So like it was it was it was a big deal to go away and play. And for me, it was

kind of a dream come true. But I also knew like, you know, eventually that, you know, I'm not going to make a million dollars playing across. So, so your career ends. That chapter closes and how and when does running enter the picture? It entered my junior year of college. So I joined a fraternity, pikes, I don't know, like it was whatever. It was fine. And I

had a bunch of fraternity brothers. I went to my buddy, Finns Voicens house and I was sitting at Easter dinner and his mom, Vicki Voicens had just come back from the Boston Marathon. And she had like the crinkly little blanket and the unicorn medal. And it was the first time that I had ever like met a real person. That had done a marathon. And I was

just like, man, if Vince's mom can run a marathon, I can run marathon. And that was the time when I knew like that moment changed my life. Like it was like one of those seminal moments where you're just like, I don't know, there's so many like split second decisions that can change people's lives. And that was the moment for me where I was like, I'm going

to do this thing. And little did I know that, you know, I'd end up, you know, having all these experiences from that one interaction. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, tell me. Any more about that because somebody else could have had that experience of meeting their friends mom and just been like, that's cool and moved on with their life. But for some reason, a switch got flicked

in you. Well, something got lit up. Totally. And I think it was because I had started running like when I stopped playing across and Vince and I were like working out. And I was getting strong. And I was like starting to run like, you know, 5K around campus. And then like every now and then I'd run like, I think I could run, you know, to like

the dairy part of campus, which is like 10 miles. And I would just go and run. And then I'd be like, wow, I can't believe I made it that far and didn't need to like stop or like take a bike back or whatever. And so when I was like, oh, I'm going to try to do this thing. But I was like, you know, that's one of

those like lifelong goal type things where you, you keep saying it, but you're not sure when it's actually going to happen. And then it kind of crystallized where I was like, oh, Vince's mom can do it. I do. And so like, I hope when people see me now, they're like, well, if that dude with like the family and the job and, you know, all these other

commitments can do it. Like maybe I can do it too. Yeah, that does, does seem like a very authentic driver for you. Like your motivation really is to share your experiences for the purpose of inspiring other people to realize like these things are within their grasp. Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I think like sometimes the things that I do, like people are like, oh, man,

you know, I mean, you get this too. It's like, there's no, I don't even like driving that far. Like, or I, you know, that's not me or I'm not built that way. And I, I hopefully people can see what we do and say, like, well, maybe it's not at that level now. But eventually it could be or like this is a chance to get motivated to

start to do something more than I am now. Yeah, I feel like it cuts both ways. On the one hand, you go off and do something so insane. And people can say, well, he's got all this stuff going on and he did that. So I can at least do this. Yeah. But I think at the same time, it also makes it easier for people to completely

dismiss you. Some kind of insane outlier and just say, well, he's, you know, he's whack a dude all like that's, you know, like, yeah, a normal person can't do that. There's obviously something, you know, very different about this person. Right. But I think like so many people like, I didn't start out that way, right? Like I started out like, oh, I want to run a marathon.

Like I don't know why I didn't start. Like, oh, I should want to run a 10k or 5k or something because I probably didn't even know that those existed. But when you do have that kind of impetus to get started, like it quickly can snowball. Yeah. So you sign up for your first marathon. Yeah. Marine Corps or which one did you do? It was Marine Corps.

Yeah. Well, so I did the MS half marathon first because I was like, well, actually, I guess stepping back at Michigan State, I did a half marathon in a indoor track, like a one eighth of a mile track in the middle of winter because it was on my schedule. Because I, going back, like I said to Vince's mom, hey, you know, it'd be great if you

could, you know, help me. And she was like, okay, sure. And she basically just went and took a book, like training for your first marathon and photocopied it. And so it was like, it had, you know, one of those old schedules. It was like Monday, run five miles Tuesday, run six miles. And it was like a 40 week build or something. And so whatever it said,

I just did. And so when it got to like the half marathon day, it was dumping snow at Michigan State. And I was like, okay, well, I'm going to do my run. I don't want to do it in negative, you know, 20 degree temperatures. So I just went to this indoor track. And I got my buddy Jason to run with me. And we literally, like, I

think I ran for like two hours or something around this eighth of a track. And I was like, if I can do that, I can do the marathon. Right. And so then signed up from rain corn when I got out of school and did it with the goal of like, I guess, what I wanted to do was run the Boston Marathon. So like, when I sent

away to Boston, like, at the time, there was no internet, you sent them like a self-addressed stumped envelope. And they sent me back the, like, little pamphlet and said, like, what's your qualifying time? And that's when I was like, oh, crap. Like, I don't have that. You can't just sign up. Yeah, you can't just sign up. I was like, wait, what? And so, so that's when

I signed up for rain corn. So did you qualify for Boston and your first marathon? I did. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I knew I had to run three hours and 10 minutes. And so I was like, okay, fine. I'm going to run three hours and 10 minutes. Not knowing if I could or not. But I figured, if it goes really bad at Marine Corps, my parents

can come and get me on the side of the course. And I still remember the so vividly, like, coming into the last mile at like three hours. And I was like, I have 10 minutes to go a mile. I was like, no problem. Like, I can do this. I didn't even sleep. And then I remember, I don't have you ever run Marine Corps? No. Okay. So

I did, like, when I was a kid in high school, I think I did the 10K. Okay. I'll say in course that they would have it or the 10 mile or something like that. Okay. Cool. So like you know, like the finish is like kind of uphill. And it used to go, like, you had to go all the way around E O GM. I'm a memorial.

I just remember it finishes around that memorial. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So with like 10 minutes to go, I'm like, oh, I got this like so easy. And then I just remember it being like, okay, where's the 26 mile marker? And then at like 306, I was like, oh, I can see it. And then I was like, oh, no, I have to go all the way around.

And I just remember cursing that point to like being like, oh, that should only be like a minute. And it being like two and a half minutes. So I did qualify, but it was a lot tighter than I expected. And like, I went like totally in just like, look cross shorts and like a cotton t-shirt and like no blue, no taping, no, you know, just chafed

all to, you know, everything. But all in, you run Boston. And you know, I garnered from that that, you know, this is, this is like, oh, this is going to be my path now. Yeah. It was actually pretty quickly. Like I went to Boston with the goal of like breaking three hours because I quickly like determined that I was going to be like, if you want

to be a real runner, you should be able to break three hours. And I don't know why that was like an arbitrary goal. Like as a 22 year old kid, I thought that meant something. But yeah, I went with the goal of breaking three hours. And I think I ran two 54 or so. So I was, you know, pretty much under where I wanted to be.

But the thing about it was just Boston just struck me like the energy, the vibe. Like I think you've been there before. No, I haven't actually. Wait, what? I've never seen it. Yeah. Oh, man. We got it. Yeah, you should witness the New York Marathon, New York City Marathon, but never Boston. Yeah. I mean, New York's amazing. Boston is like, oh, it's, it's even, I mean,

they're, they're on par with each other. So you kind of have that experience. But like, I just remember like the little kids was like orange slices like standing there so excited to like hand them to you. And like, everyone's just jazzed and like, there's so many good athletes. Like everyone there is like qualified to be there. Yeah. It's just like this huge celebration. And I was

like, I want to do this. And so how long between that experience and you kind of graduating into this elite level? I mean, your PR is what you're like a 217 marathon. Yeah, exactly. But that's what 95 96 your first Boston. Yeah, 97 I think for the first Boston. So it's really like a 10 year period then before you start making all these US teams and

winning all these races. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in 2000. So I qualified for three Olympic trials, 2004, 2008, and 2012. So 2004. So that's still seven years of training and learning and developing. Yeah, exactly. And in that time, are you in DC like getting coffee at the maritime shipping company? Yes. Yeah, I totally am. Yeah. And I'm running for. So I'm running for, um, the local

running stores put, uh, Pacers running. Uh, and so I, I quickly like, uh, got on their, um, team, like at first, you know, I just walked into the running store after running 254. And I was like, thought I was a big deal. You know, and I was like, Hey, you know, I ran 254 and I'd be on your, you know, running team. And they were just

like, dude, you're not fast enough to be on our team. Uh-huh. But they were like, Hey, you can come to like track workouts. So I basically started out in like the, you know, kind of third group. And by like two months in, I was running with the first group. And then I, I heard the, I overheard them talking about a race. They were going to go

do this wall wall, 10 mile. And I was like, I'm going to go to that race and I'm going to beat them all. Um, and I ended up going to the race and did not beat them all. But I beat all, but one of them, this guy, Jeff Van Horn, who owns like, like, lucky feet running and we're still friends, but like he still remembers that

day. And, uh, after that race, they're like, Hey, you want to be on our team? And I was like, Yeah, dude. And I thought I made it. One of the things about your career is that you seem to constantly be racing, right? Like a lot of athletes at your level, they'll pick their key race and they'll kind of clear their calendar. And they really focus on,

you know, peaking for, you know, one or two times a season. And from what I can gather, it's, it's almost like you're racing, like every weekend, you're doing some crazy thing. And, you know, maybe that's just part of the whole experience or, or kind of part and parcel of your training approach. But it is very different from the typical elite runner. Yeah, for sure. I mean,

I think that's the thing that most people started to learn about me and, and something that I have been known for is like, I'll race 40 or 50 times a year. And it's been less the, the last couple of years, just because I've been doing like super long stuff. But, um, yeah, like that. If, if I could, I would race, you know, as much as possible.

So people that don't know, like, you ran all the way across the United States from San Francisco. You ended in Rojobeth Beach. The last mile of, of that was like a six 10 or something like that. Yeah. And then the next day you woke up and ran a five K. Yes. In a, in like an official, like neighborhood race or whatever and average or like 601s.

Yeah, dude. Yeah. And, well, and it's funny because I've won that race like six times or something. So they're like, you're coming. And I was like, for sure, I'm going to be there. And I was like, I, I got there with my brother. And I was like, I have no idea how this is going to go. And I was warming up. And I was like, I

feel actually pretty good. Like. And so I, I went out and I was like, dude, you can't let me beat you. And my brother is like, I dropped him. And then I started like picking up people with that race. No, I totally did not win. But I, I did okay. I think I'm going to be able to do that. I was in the top, you know,

five or 10. So the point being that you have this huge kind of diesel engine, you can be the locomotive, right? That goes all the way across the US. But you also have a little bit of Jack rabbit in you. So from a training perspective, like, is that a genetic thing that you've always been able to go fast and long? Or do you train for that

specifically? Or how do you kind of think about that? I think I like to use both of the engines. And I think that's what I'm going to do. I think the run across the country was, I had to be so disciplined. Like that was unnaturally slow running for me. I've gotten better at that over the last couple of years, especially with the FKT's. And then I've

done some of those, you know, backyard altruos. Like I know you had Harvey on and talked to him. And like Harvey is similar in that he likes to race a lot too. And he kind of, he runs to and from work. And yeah, exactly. And so we have a lot of that in common. So we've, and we're both plant based and all that. So like, we've

shared, you know, tips and tricks. But yeah, like, so as far as I like to mix it up, and I like to keep it interesting. So I feel like if you focus only on one thing, I mean, it might be awesome to get really good at one thing. But I don't think that you continue to evolve as an athlete and as a person. So I don't

mind like not being the best at something. No, you seem to have a beginner's mind. Like we're going to get like you're trying to become a pickle ball professional. Like you do all this other stuff. Yeah, it just seems insane to me. Yeah. But, you know, between the lines, I see somebody who, yeah, you're not afraid to try new things. You're always trying to master a

new skill. And that keeps you kind of humble and curious, right? And I'm sure that that spills over into your running. Like it all informs, you know, the larger kind of, you know, fully formed Mike Wardian. Yeah. And as far as like the ability to do it, I feel like you have again, it's going back to like you have to want to do it. And you

have to be willing to not have success. And so if you're, if you have those that mindset going in, like, you know, if I don't win, okay, fine. But like, maybe I did better than I did the day before or maybe the time before or maybe the short run is going to help me for the long, the long runs. And then I feel like the longer

ultra stuff helps me, especially when I was like running like those fast marathon times. Like when I ran my pee r of 217, like two weeks later, I ran bad water and finished third. So like just two weeks later. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. So like, and like all the people at Badwater are like, dude, your 217 is not going to help you. You're going to

be out here. And I was like, I know, I know. Yeah. But by always like having another race a couple weeks later, it kind of depressurizes the whole thing. Right? Sure. You're like, all right. That didn't go well. But I'm going to, you know, I'm going to be here two weeks later. And we'll try something different. Right. And, and like some people think like that's a

lack of focus. And I just think that's the way that I like to train. And it keeps me motivated. So like, if you're not motivated, then, you know, matter how, you know, well, you do at a race. Like, it's, it's, it's going to be hard. And like, I feel like a lot of the people and you've probably seen this in the sport too, is a lot

of the people that, you know, you came up with aren't doing the sport anymore or not doing it in the way that they want or, you know, I've already stepped away from the sport. So like, there's so many people that used to be my competitor that aren't even racing anymore. So like, that's one of the things I'm really proud of too, is like just to have

long Jevidi. Yeah, you stayed in it. I would consider myself one of those people who's not doing it anymore. I'm doing this instead. But like, that's not a, that's, that's your choice, right? Yeah. I mean, that's choice. Yeah. And, and some people like, they don't want to do it anymore, right? And I don't fault them for that. But I'm still like motivated to see, you know,

what I can do. Yeah, it's stayed fresh for you. Yeah. And I think like, if, if I had only like cared about my 5K time or my marathon time, like, it gets hard. Like, it's, it's hard to be on that edge for that long and, and only going for one thing. Yeah. Because at some point, you're just, you're not going to be able to make that

PR work for you anymore. Right. And if you have so much invested in that, you're going to be disappointed or it kind of drains the joy out of the whole thing. Right. It's like running with Planner Fashionitis. Like, you can still run with Planner Fashionitis. It's just sucks. Uh-huh. It's just not right. Right. Like, you can train right through it. Like, I've done it. And it's

just sucks the joy out of every run. So over the years, you've gotten, you know, quite a bit of press for all the different things that you've done from being the fastest marathoner and a Spider-Man costume and like, all kinds of crazy things. But I feel like there was an inflection point in kind of your notoriety and your resume with the quarantine backyard ultra, right? When

everyone was locked down, all the races were canceled. And the whole world kind of united around this shared community quest where people all over the world were embarking on this challenge. So talk a little bit about that for people who don't know what that is. Yeah, I'll definitely talk about that a little bit. And it's funny because I didn't even know it was going on until

the week that it was happening. Like, and I only saw it because my friend Maggie Guderol was doing it. And I was like, oh, yeah, that thing. Like, I've been, she'd been like, oh, you'd be good at this. And I was like, oh, cool. And I'd seen, you know, the backyard races. But for people that don't know, I feel like everyone that's probably listening to your

show probably does know, but maybe maybe not. But like, the backyard ultra is, it's a thing. It's kind of like a century club. If you were like, from your drinking days, or you drink like a shot every minute on the minute, but this is every hour on the hour, you have to run 4.167 miles. And it seems kind of like an arbitrary number until you realize

that every 24 hours, that equals 100 miles. So basically in 24 hours of doing 4.167 miles, it gets you to 20 or gets you to 100 miles. And then the way that it works is like everyone starts the race. And then the race goes, keeps going, no one can quit until everyone quits. And there's two people left. And then the race can only go one more

loop until the last person quits or the second to the last person, which called like the assist. And the way that the quarantine backyard ultra worked, which was kind of unique at the time is everyone logged into like their computer, because everyone was locked down. Right. It wasn't happening at a particular place. Everybody just did it wherever they were. Right. Which was kind of like amazing.

And then, and most of the time, it's like outside, but because it was quarantine, there were some countries where you couldn't be outside. So they allowed people to be on treadmills or there was a woman that was like running from her sauna and like Sweden, like out on this like frozen lake. There was people like running around like closed restaurants, like I ran around a point

four mile loop around my neighborhood. Or it turned out to be 63 hours. So I went like 260 some miles. So like almost you want that. You were the last man standing. Yes. The last person standing. And it came down to me and a guy on a treadmill in like the Czech Republic. I guess. And I feel like that. Like within the ultra community or the

running community, people are familiar with that format of race and it's gaining in popularity. But that quarantine backyard really kind of made mainstream news because it was such a beautiful celebration of agency in an era in which we were all sort of deprived of agency. Totally. Yeah. And I think there was just nothing else going on. Right. And this is social media thing. That's what drove

the entire kind of intrigue. Right. And I think what was so neat about it too is that you did have people like, you know, running in restaurants and like, you know, they were still in the race. You know, and like I'm running around my block. And like people are no one's going to work. So like my whole neighborhood was out. So like I know what was

going on. Yeah. And so like the first day, like, no one really was out. But like by the second day, everyone's like, my God, that guy's still running around the block. And then by like halfway through the second day, like people had set up like aid stations and like all this. Like, no one's anything to do. Yeah. No one had anything to do. So like it

was awesome. You know, people are like, and but everyone's still kind of scared too because it's at the beginning of COVID. And so like, you know, people are not sure if they should be there or not. And so like, but it did give, you know, people something to follow. And I think it was just beautiful. Like I was following the other people. And I was like,

I can't believe she's still running from that sauna. Like it's like crazy. And then you're getting the different like weather to and, you know, it was it was the first night. It was amazing. But the second day it got super hot and DC. And so like you get hot and humid like versus like somebody that's in there. Basement, you know, like that's it's hard. Yeah. So

it's the DC heat and humidity is no small thing. No. Yeah. You know what that's like. Yeah. But like just to have so many people come out and then, you know, mainstream media, like it was on ESPN, you know, New York Times, Wall Street, or not Wall Street Journal, Washington Post. And like, it got a lot of coverage. Yeah. It's cool. And that kind of format

is only gaining in popularity. Like we all saw what happened last week, right? Yeah. The kind of ceiling on what's possible with that 4.167 loop is, is just, you know, exploding. So these guys from, they were from Belgium, right? Oh, dude. It was so baller. Yeah. 420 miles. Yeah. They crushed the record. Yeah. Because it was a big deal the year before when Harvey, I think,

was the first to eclipse 300. Is that right? I think, no, I think you're close. Yeah. And what's interesting too is like the format this year, I think, was they had like national teams. So like the US team versus the Belgium team, versus the French team, versus the Chinese team. And the thing I love about the format of the last man standing or last person standing,

I should say, because a lot of times women win these sort of things like Courtney's, one, we've had on the podcast and Maggie's one. And I mean, it's just whoever's the stronger mentally, because like, it's not that hard to run 4.167 miles in an hour. Like most people can walk that almost. What's hard is like, you have to like, do all your nutrition. You have to

go to the bathroom and you can't take aid once you leave the aid station. And so like all that part is hard, you know, you left out the biggest one though. Oh, the sleep sleep. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But you have an interesting relationship with sleep. Yeah. You don't seem to need that much sleep. No, I don't, which is like a good and bad thing. I mean,

we were talking Josh and I were talking on the way up. And he's the same way. And it's, it's great. But like, I, I definitely see the benefits of sleep. And like I tried to do better with that. And, and during the run across the country, like I went from, you know, my normal four or five hours of sleep to like six or seven hours. Like,

like, no, like I, the first like week and a half, I was like, I was still doing my thing, like playing my video games and sending texts and emails at all hours of the day and night. And then I was just like, no, I can't do that anymore. So like, I mean, maybe there is like a certain threshold of like exertion where like the sleep just

becomes more paramount. Six or seven hours. You describe that almost as if that's indulgence. Yeah. Like four or five, you're, you're cool with that. I would just be completely debilitated. Yeah. Like your whoops score would not be where you wanted to be. No, no. But you're fine on four to five. Yeah. I feel like that's, wow. That's pretty good for me. Um, Matthew Walker would have

some quality words for you. Sleep diplomat. Like he, he's like anybody who says that they can get by on, on, on four or five hours is delusional. Oh, well, yeah. Maybe that's I don't know. But you seem to be high functioning. Yeah. So far, so good. Um, although I did read like a bad study today about how it, you know, can mess with your overall like

diabetes and heart disease and all these kind of bad things. But are you just naturally waking up early or you set an alarm and just say, I'm only going to sleep four or five hours. Oh, no, no, I'm like waking up naturally. Yeah. Um, so would you get up at like four 30 or something? Uh, usually most days, four, 45. And then I start my first

workout at like five 30. And usually that's like CrossFit or I work with a personal trainer. Um, and then I run usually after that. The CrossFit thing is super interesting. I mean, that goes back to the beginner's mind. Yeah. Like I love on Instagram how you're always, you know, very transparently showing all your gym routines. Yeah. Which is unusual for a runner. Like they like to

show the epic, you know, kind of videos of them running in a beautiful location. But you're like, no, it's these little things that I do. All these strength exercises that, you know, obviously are contributing to your longevity. Cause you're like, what do you like 48 now? Dude, yeah, right on. Yeah. Totally. Yeah, I'm 48 and yeah, I want to be doing this for a long time.

And I feel like that's helped me. And I feel like it's really helped me in the longer stuff. Like just being stronger, being able to carry like a heavier pack, um, being able to keep form as the race goes on or the FKT or whatever I'm doing. Um, and then also it's just like mentally like it's hard. Like when you're doing like the force set of

like dead bug plank things and it's kind of like going into the last like, 100 meters of a race, you know, when there's a person right on your shoulder and you're like, is it, you know, is it you or me is going to make it to the, the line first. And I feel like that really, really helped that strength and stability. You can maintain your form

under duress and strain. Right. Right. More powerfully. Yeah. And also like I have the ability to just grind like the ability to just put your head down and work. And I think that that's really, really helpful, especially. In a race like the last man standing or last person standing where it's just, you don't have to go fast. You just have to keep going and you have

to want to keep going. Mm hmm. So with CrossFit though, were you doing like the classes with everyone else and they take you through or did you do that just alone or with a personal trainer? No, I'm doing it with my friend Tom Merhoffer. And so he has like this really amazing gym in his house. And so we became friends during quarantine. And so I've just

been doing it with him really. So I haven't gone to like, you know, mayhem or any of the like super bad ass like CrossFit places yet, which I really want to do culture from the running culture. Yeah, totally. Yeah. But it's, it's something that I'm excited about. I was fortunate enough to do this thing called the Spartan Games during quarantine and got to see some of

the, you know, beasts of the CrossFit world. Yeah. And yeah, that's just, just something that I, and really impressed with. And I'd like to play around with for sure. Have you ever had periods where you were injured significantly or have you been pretty injury free? No. So I, I had a couple of bouts of injury. My first big injury was in 2012. But for the most

part, I've been healthy as an athlete. My, our son Grant has epilepsy. And so he had an epilepsy in 2011. It was kind of right after I'd set all the PRs in my marathon and, and longer distances, 100K, 50K. And he started getting seizures. And so we were dealing with that. And like my four hours of sleep went to like 30 minutes of sleep, you know,

like it would be like, my turn to check on him or, or get a first turn to check on him. And I ended up getting five stress fractures of my pelvis and five hernias, like simultaneously. And that was the first time I was like, oh, maybe, maybe I'm not going to be able to be an athlete anymore. But I did kind of the same thing. I've

always done is like, okay, I can't run. Right now, but what can I do? And I just like became like the most insane awkward jogger. Like I, I would just go to like you, I don't know if you know the pool, but like Washington Liberty. It used to be called Washington and Lee. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah. So like I went there. And I've just, just

awkward jog for like two or three hours. And came out of the pool after that. And some physical therapy. And I was like, I don't know. I think that's what I was thinking about. And it took about three months of like letting the stress fractures heal. And then I got a hernias surgery. And then came back and went from, you know, nothing to like running, like,

oh, I wanted to run sub six minute miles on a half marathon. And ran like 114. And then started running again and started winning races again. And then the second mountain was during that Spartan games. I herniated my L six S one diss in my back. And I think I actually maybe sent you a note about that because I met some people that were pretty good

at getting me sorted out. And so I work with like MedStar Health. And I was able to get my back sorted out. I remember getting a note. I'll look for that though. Because I think, yeah, well, we could talk about that. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. So I got one. I did a bunch of, you know, I'm sure they're probably having you do like open books

and that kind of stuff to like try to get your back sorted. But got that healed. And that's actually when I decided to run across the country. Because I was like, I've been, it's one of those kind of things that I've been like, oh, someday I'll do that. And when that happened, I was like, I'm not taking any more chances. This is the time. Yeah. Right.

And did those experiences inform like your approach? To all the functional fitness and strength training stuff to kind of stabilize and prevent that from happening in the future? Well, I think that that I was doing it already. But that's when I was like, Hey, this is I think had I not been doing that. I would have been an even worse predicament and not able to recover

as quickly as I did. So when I got injured at the Spartan Games, that was the strongest and fittest I'd ever been because I was getting ready to run across the country. Right. And I was like, then I got hurt. And I was like, Oh, I might not ever have this chance again. And I was like, there's no way I'm going to risk not to get

an advantage of all the resources that I have. Have elite runners approached you with curiosity about your strength training stuff. Because I feel like there's a lot of room for for kind of growth. And most runners, especially elite right there. Just doing a lot of the running and you know, the kind of trope is like the gym stuff like I, you know, whatever. I don't know.

I'm for that or they're worried about putting on weight. Suddenly they're going to snap their fingers and look like Ryan Hall. Oh my God. Dude, he is like, I mean, inspiration, dude. Yeah. Right. Too so cool. It's and I saw because he was at that first world marathon challenge with me. Uh-huh. And I thought, Oh, man, he's going to be my competition, not knowing. Like I

knew he hadn't run. But I was like, still he's like a 204 marathoner. Like he could not run and still run like a 230, right? He must have how much Josh how much weight did Ryan put on? Do you know? Yeah, like 35 35. I'm at least right? Well, he he flocks your weights a little too. Yeah. Like so he'll like get bigger. He does his

cut his, yeah, his bulk in his cut. Yeah. Yeah. So he got over 200. Yeah. And what was his weight at the elite level of he was like 127. Right. Yeah. That was like he was two like. Yeah. That's a 70 pound swing though. Yeah. Well, it could probably still crush. You know, he it looks like he's out there running a little bit these days. Yeah.

No, it's fun. And so hopefully someday I'll get to do some some fun adventures with him. Right. But I think between the two of you guys, because you're you're doing a lot of strength training, but you're maintaining a runner's physique and you're convinced that this is contributing to your longevity and like your power and like all of these things. I think that there's, there's really an

opportunity for the running community to, you know, embrace some of the stuff that you're doing in a, in a bigger way. Well, and it's, it's awesome. Like I every day have someone that like says like, Oh, man, I do your exercise. Like at the pickleball tournament, I was at last weekend. I had three people come up and say like, Hey, man, like I, I, I've followed

you and I do your exercises and I was like, that is music to my ears. Like I love hearing that. And I think so many people are so intimidated, like either by the cost or like going to a place or not knowing what to do when they get there. And so like, just to have like something that's free that they can just be like, I mean,

it's not everything, but it's like a place to get started, right? And so like, that's great. Like and it's making them better. Like I, yeah. I can't ask for anything more than that. All right. So we have a tradition here on the show of interviewing more than a couple transcon runners. We've had Ricky Gates on who did it self supported. That's a whole other. Oh my

God. I talked to Ricky. Right. Robbie Ballinger, Helice De Bay. I think Robbie did it in 75 days. Hella did it in 84. Yeah. Correct. I don't know how long it took Ricky, but longer because he was doing his own thing. Yeah. And well, you know, he did some paddling in there. Yeah. And he had like a budget. And he was making a documentary. Yeah. At

the same time. Totally. Yeah. And we had to push like he had to, like the hard part for him is he was going across the desert by himself, like pushing like a cart. So like, yeah, yeah. Some dark. Did you watch the documentary? Oh, man. I watched it. I read the book. Dark moments of the soul. Oh, yeah. I thought, you know, when he's he had

to like crawl into a cave for a while and yeah, like his wounds. Yeah. Yeah. I think he really met his maker on that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But in your case, you set this goal of doing it in 75 days, which is how long it took Robbie, you ended up doing it in 62 days, right? So. Yeah. It's a running in excess to do that. You

had to run in excess of 50 miles a day. Yeah. And I actually did a longer route than a lot of people to. Cause I went all the way to rehab. And there was a bridge. I couldn't get across. So I had to go around it and. Yeah. They won't let you run across the Chesapeake Bay. Yeah. Yeah. The Bay Bridge. Yeah. And I. They called

the guys in charge of it. He was like, no. Yeah. Well, most people end in like DC or York or they don't go all the way to the ocean. Yeah. Exactly. Or yeah. Pretty much. And so. And I mean, that works. But like, I wanted it to be all the way ocean to ocean. And so I actually messed up when I planned it. I started at

San Francisco City Hall, thinking I could just run across the Golden Gate and put my feet in there. But that's not the ocean. I tried to run like 10K the wrong way the first day to get over to Ocean Beach. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not that much further, but a little bit. Yeah. Enough. Yeah. I got. And root 50. Is that a typical route? Or is

that unique to go that route? It's pretty unique. I think a lot of people go a little bit different. Like some people go like root 66 other people kind of go a little bit higher so that they can get to New York. Like the fastest route for if you're going to go for the record or something, you want to probably go like San Francisco City Hall

to New York City Hall. And you kind of go like through, I think it's Yosemite. You go a little bit through there and kind of across that way. I wanted to run root 50 because I called the project running home. And I actually live on root 50 in Arlington, like Arlington Boulevard. So I was like, wow, I didn't even know that you could run root 50

and actually root 50 ends in Ocean City, Maryland. So a little bit further south. So a couple days after I finished the run in Robe, if I went and ran down just to complete it. Yeah, to complete it. Because you're so detailed. Yeah. Yeah. To be compulsive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To in looking at like the other people who have done this, you know, some of the

common themes that come up are like a greater, you know, kind of appreciation for the beauty of our country, but also like the people because you're meeting so many different people along the way. And there is this sense that, you know, we're out of kind of, you know, we're at a kind of unique moment where we feel divided and we can't communicate with each other, et

cetera. But, you know, if you talked to Ricky or Robbie or hella, they'll say, yes, we had some, we had some negative encounters with trucks and cars and a few people along the way. But by and large and for the most part, like it's, you know, it's kind of a beautiful experience of really connecting with people boots on the ground, you know, in all these different

areas as you're passing, you know, so slowly through these various, you know, areas totally. Yeah. And I feel like you also had Mike Posner on, right? Oh, yeah, it's right. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I like started following him on. I mean, he walked, but like I totally didn't even think about that. Yeah. And dude, I was petrified of getting bit by a rattlesnake in Colorado because of

what happened to him. Um, so yeah, you're absolutely right. And it was, it's funny because of the people be like, Oh, you ran 52 miles a day. But really I ran like five miles at a time for five miles at a time. Like the first week, I was like too aggressive and I was running like 10, 10 miles before seeing my support crew. But like, then

I quickly was like, Oh, I need more help. And you do get a really good feel for our country. And I can't believe how team America I am right now. Like I love our country. Like I was so shocked at how much beauty I found. Like I've been a lot of places all around the world, all around the country. But like that little section of the

country route 50 and kind of like they call it a layer America's loneliness highway in Nevada. Like and you're going through like places like right near like area 51 like from Ealy to I think it's Baker maybe is like the darkest place in the lower continental United States. So like, it's just unbelievably gorgeous. Like just nothing, nothingness. And I read so many books along the route,

but like I was reading books like Stephen King has a book where like people are getting like Snatch from like root 50 like right where I was running. And you know, so it's like you get like all these kind of different experiences. But yeah, one of the best things was like. Just rolling up to like a town like we were in. I was telling Josh this

actually because he was watching like Topgum Maverick last night. And I was like, Oh, I saw this in Syracuse, Kansas at this theater from like 1934. And it was like all locals and my wife and kids had flown in. And I was like, I'm going to go to the next level. I'm going to go to the next level. I'm going to go to the next level.

I'm going to go to the next level. I'm going to go to the next level. I'm going to go to the next level. I'm going to go to the next level. I'm going to go It was the only time I saw them during the trip. And like we went to install Topgum like the weekend. It came out. And after I'd run, you know, 50 miles that

day. Right. And then we had dinner at a local like restaurant like the black bison or something. But like the town was literally like one of those towns from like it looked like a movie set. You know, it was like one strip. And it was like. Old school movie theater. Yeah. Yeah. Like state farm office like restaurant. And then you know, Lake that way, you know,

signed. And it was like so many experiences like that. Or like we went to this place. I think it's in Indiana. Instead of, you know, Dairy Queen. It was called Dairy King. It was a complete knockoff of like Dairy Queen. And I don't know if Dairy Queen knocked off Dairy King or. But it was like shockingly they had like vegan ice cream. They had like. Whoa.

Vegan like. And it was like they had like a lot of different kinds of food options on the menu like hamburgers hot dogs like. And literally I was starving, but it was actually quite good. Like and I was shocked at how many options I found for like plant based foods along the route. Like I was expecting, you know, to just not have a lot of choices.

And I was surprised at how many choices there were. Yeah, the diet thing. I mean, that's a ball for you, right? You were sort of a longtime vegetarian who has been increasingly more flirtatious with the, you know, the 100% plant based. Yes. Yeah. Upgrade. Yeah. Upgrade. Well, and I guess I'm still not 100% vegan because I still eat honey. And so like, that's why I said

flirtatious. Yeah. Exactly. So I haven't been able to give up honey. And I don't know if I ever will, but I'm, yeah, I definitely love that aspect of my life and that I've been lucky enough to find, you know, that I think when you and I were growing up like the common mentality, especially like playing a sport like the cross or football or something is like,

you need me to be strong to be able to, you know, compete or whatever. And I just started questioning that. And, and then, you know, slowly like took out one thing and see how I felt and then took out a nut like I stopped eating red meat in high school and stopped eating chicken in college. And then. Well, you know, it was like, oh, I still

feel good. I still feel great. And then I started being like, oh, I actually feel a little bit better. And then my recovery has been the thing that most people are impressed with. And I definitely feel like that has something to do with it. Yeah. Do you think that as you continue to make those tweaks in your diet that that's improving your recovery or is that

like the variable that you're looking at? I think it's something. I think it's just feeling good. Like I feel like when I eat the way that I do, like I, I feel better. And I also feel like ready for the next workout or the next adventure or whatever it might be. Yeah. Your recovery seems like it's off the chain. Like you're able to just get up

and go, go, go, go. Yeah. I mean, I think that. And what's cool is like, I think there's a, and I don't know if it's a misconception or it's just a common mentality about like as you age, like you're not going to be able to recover as well. And I just don't buy into that. Like I feel like, I've still been able to recover just as

well as I had before. I think what happens is I just have more obligations. Like the older you get, you just have more stuff going on. And it just gets harder to maybe focus. But I don't feel like the recovery has been any less than it was. When you're preparing to run across the United States, what does that training program look like? Like how do you

approach a goal that massive? It was actually weird. So first off, I talked to a lot of people. Like I talked to Robbie. I talked to, I didn't talk to Hella because I didn't know him at that point. Now I do. I would have. I talked to Ricky Gades. I talked to as many people as I could. A guy named Phil McCarthy. I don't know if

you know him or not. He's like a New York based guy. Jason Romero, who's another guy who's run across a country. Talk to, yeah, just anyone I could that I done it. And I joined like a Facebook group like US Transcon. I think Robbie talked about that. Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of everybody wants to help. Right. Yeah. This collective wisdom about. Right. Common mistakes. And

like don't run on I 70 and Colorado. Or you know, you're going to get booted off. Like I think Robbie actually had to jump like a thing when the cops came or whatever. And I don't know. Yeah. So I tried to talk to as many people as I could. And what I realized is there's it's almost like I think people think when you're getting ready to

run 100 miles, like you're going to be running 100 miles in training. And that's not really the way that it works for most people. And so I just realized like I'm not going to ever be able to do. Like my friend Pete Castellanick. I talked to also who has the record. And he was like waking up and doing like a marathon every day. Right. And I

was just like I just don't that's not what I want to do. And so I started doing a lot of cross training. I did a lot of crossfit doing a lot of like strength training. I wanted to put on like three or four pounds of muscle like usually I'm like 140 to 142 pounds. And I wanted to get up to like 146 147. Just so I'd

have something to give away as the run went along. So I wanted to put on weight. I wanted to do one kind of simulation race. So I did a race in Sri Lanka called the ultra extra long, which was like a five day stage race where you are running anywhere from like a marathon to like 40 miles in extreme temperatures because I knew like I'm going

to not have the options. Yeah, I'll have. And also like I wanted to get the heat and humidity because I knew that we had a trip with the fan like you were saying like how did you make it work? Like we plan to family trip to the Galapagos with the families because I figured like once a lifetime trip family will all go to the Galapagos. We'll

have a great time. And then I'm going to do a race. And like no one will need me for a couple of weeks. And then that's three weeks into the Transcon. And then by the time people are like, Oh, where's, you know, like I'm starting to miss my dad like I'll must be done. And so like kind of got all that lined up. But I didn't

do a ton of running. I actually did less running than I normally do knowing that I kind of had a huge base of years and years of just stacking runs and workouts. And the last it was ridiculous. But like, you and I both talked about earlier is like I love to race. I turned down more races in amazing locations and opportunities than I ever have in

my life because I was like, is that going to get me across the country? No, then I'm not going to do it. So it was like, I think that was for me one of the hardest things was like running less than I want to because I don't want to injure myself or put myself in a in a bad spot training wise. And then putting on weight

knowing that you're going to hopefully give it back to the running gods, which is what exactly happened. Like there's no way that you can eat as many like when you say like someone like Michael Phelps eats like 13,000 calories a day or something. Like I don't know how many calories you've tried to eat a day. But like, no, that's just that's a job. Like that's challenging

and not fun. It's just not fun. Like by the end of the Transcon, I didn't want to eat anymore. Like I I if I could have taken that fuel from the matrix where it's like everything you need and like a gruel and you could just drink it and it would be done. Like I would have done that 100% at the time. How much weight did you

lose? Like when you completed it or you significantly lighter? Yeah. So I started at 146 and I finished at 134 or so. It's not too bad though. It wasn't too bad. Yeah. And and it and it quickly came back. So like I but I sacrificed like I all my little muscles that I built up from CrossFit were just evaporated like like I was like, oh no.

My little biceps. I ran across the country, but I got to turn turn in my CrossFit man card. Yeah. Pretty much. But I like that that notion of just becoming strong stable and fresh. You have this huge base. And the discipline as you mentioned earlier was really about holding back because you're so used to running fast and far. It would be very easy for you at

least early on to kind of overdo it and dig a hole. For yourself. So just being like really cautious and like meeting out the days like you know in a very methodical way and kind of building the fitness as you go. Like I talked about James Lawrence here and cowboy. You did like 101 Iron Man. Yeah. He was like he barely did any running at all

before that. He was like I just all get fit for that as I go because it's so long. There's only so much I can do to get ready for it. Yeah. And we can debate the wisdom of that. But you know I can see you. Yeah. And that being said like we didn't touch on this but in 2019 I did a test where I ran across

Israel and set the fastest known time on the Israeli National Trail. And I was like 600 miles or something. Yeah. It's a thousand kilometers or so. And I did it in about 10 days. So like a hundred kilometers a day. And I knew like what that meant. Like in that to me was like like if you want to go for the real record like to run

a car. And I was like 72 miles a day. And that's like those are big days. And going across Israel I had days that were like 20 hour days. And you're going up and down mountains and navigating. And I was just like I know what that means. So like when I hear people say like oh I'm going to do it in like 40 days. I'm like

you don't even know. You don't know what you're saying. Because like it's not like the running. It's one part of it. But then there's like where you're going to stop the RV. Where you're going to get food. Like who's going to do the laundry. Like who's going to like how long does it take you to tape your feet. Like do you know how long it takes

to tape your feet in the morning. Like are you going to make yourself take a shower. And then every night I was doing a Facebook or Instagram post. So like that was like an hour hour and a half every day trying to remember what happened during the day. You know who threw a hamburger at you. Like the person that stopped their car to you know wish

you well or you know tried to run you off the road or whatever happened. Yeah. You were pretty good about that. You know always taking photos with people that were running with you. Yeah. Like everywhere you went. It's cool. And even though you did this in 62 days you still managed to go see Top Gun and go to Dairy King and like read a book here

and there. I read like 32 books. Wow. Yeah. Before you went to battery night. No. I was listening to audiobook. Okay. Yeah. So I was listening to audiobooks. I was listening to you. Yeah. I was listening to your podcast a lot. Like you thank you again. Because you guys helped me get through it for sure. Like it was. That's cool. And especially I love the long

form. Because like you really get into it with people. And so it's. You know I remember one day in the middle of Nevada listening to you guys talk. And I was just like man. This is so awesome. Like I can't believe like I because I was thinking of like because I and I also read a bunch of these old books like you know tales from the

breakdown lane and like my life walking around the country and stuff. And I was just thinking like those guys were like going to pay phones like to check in with their family. Like I'm like on my AirPods like calling my wife. Like she's listening to cars like zip by me like freaking out you know every day. And then eventually by like two weeks in. She's like

a another truck. I was like yeah. Another truck. But like I had those kind of resources that people before me didn't have. Yeah. And the GPS everyone knows where you are all the time. For sure. RV. Yeah. Yeah. So did you have like what was the crew situation? Did you have multiple people coming in and out or like one guy who was with you the whole

time? Yeah. So I I hired a guy. Um so Eric Bells is his name. He and that was the other things like how do you get crew? So like I had to figure it out. So I my friend Carl Meltzer. I don't know if you know him. I never met him. But I know who he is. Yeah. So like he set the record on the Appalachian

Trail. And he's run like the pony. Express trail. And so I talked to him and it was it was lucky man. It was like my buddy from Michigan State said like hey my friend. Cruise people. And I was like whatever you know like this guy. Cruise people at like mother of the woods like 10 K or something. And he's like no, no he cruise like real

people. And I was like okay sure give me his name. And so I call Eric and I'm like hey man. I heard you crew people. He's like yeah crew people. And I was like oh cool. Like who have you crewed? Like what are we doing here? And he's like yeah crewed like Carl Meltzer. I was like really? And so I text Carl and like Carl. Do

you know some guy? Yeah. And he's like dude Bells. Yeah hire him. I was like okay cool. I was like oh okay. And so you got the guy. So I got the guy. And then my dad it was just going to be my dad and I. And then my brother and I were like dude that's not going to work and my sister. And she's like, you

know you can't just be with dad by yourself for like two months. And I was like okay we should get somebody else. And so I'm so glad I did because I mean my dad's awesome. But like that's a lot of work for anyone. Like just one person like that's just impossible. So like I had my dad. Eric and my dad's friend. And he and my dad,

and my dad is going to be with me but he's like he's like that's the best thing I've ever done. I got the guy and I was like I'm not gonna let him do this. I mean he's like I'm not a friend. I'm not not going to let him do this. I'm not gonna do this because I'm not gonna let him do this. I'm not gonna

let him do it. I'm not gonna let him do this because I'm not gonna let him do this. I'm not gonna let him do this. I'm uncomfortable and then they kind of get mad that they feel uncomfortable and then they're like, all right, well, I'm going to buzz you a little bit closer than I have to or have you ever been cold-rolled? What does that mean?

Oh my God, it's this thing. I didn't even know it existed until I got to Indiana, but basically like a diesel truck, they can get up next to you and they downshift and it blows like this. Oh, all the exhaust comes out. Yeah, the black smoke comes out and if they do it right, they can actually spray like diesel out the back of the like exhaust

at you. I did not know that was a thing, but it is a thing. So doing that on purpose? Yeah, so like doing that on purpose. Oh, it's, it was crazy. I had one little old lady. It was like six, I'd start every day at like six in the morning and go to like try to end about six at night. So like 12 hours of running

or walking or whatever and it was like six, 30 in the morning. This little old lady like comes around the corner sees me and just flicks me the bird. I'm like, it's like six, 30 in the morning, man. Like, how, you know, like what? How can your day be so bad already that, you know, you're just in a bad mood about something. So, but I've said

this to a few people like, and I think you mentioned this, but like for every, you know, two or three people that were terrible or, you know, not happy that you're out there. There was 20 or 30 people that were so stoked that you were there. And you know, we had people come out like that had been looking forward to this like since I started, you

know, and this one guy had passed away on the operating table. Can't got revived came back and decided he wanted to run with us. So like he showed up and. I guess he had like told us at the beginning, like, Hey, I just want to run a mile with you. And I was like, dude, you're going to run as many miles as you want. So like,

why don't you set the pace? So like that whole morning, like he set the pace. And I just stayed behind him. And he ran 10 K with us. Like he had not been able to like, he wasn't even alive. Like three months before that. Like he passed away and came back. And we had another guy with a Fib that came out to West Virginia and look

for the steepest climbs on my route. Because he's like, I can't run with you that long. But he just wanted to hike with us up one of the climbs. Like stuff like that. That's cool. Dude, it was. Yeah. It was everything. I hoped it would be. That's so cool. Yeah. I mean, I just know from watching Ricky's talking about the memory, like the most, you know,

heartwarming sequences are when he has these incredible encounters with random people. Like the guy wanted to give him money. Yes. Oh my God. We had that so many times. Really? Yeah. It was amazing. We actually had a woman who sent her mom and dad who they she knew they were driving out on Route 50. She sent them to find us and to donate money. But like

they weren't sure they wanted to donate the money. So they were like quizzing us about where was going to go and stuff. And I was like, man, if you don't want to, it's fine. Exactly. This $40 gonna end up at dairy king. Yeah. Exactly. I was like, it's fine. You don't have to vegan ice cream. Yeah. Exactly. World vision can wait. No, actually, there is a

better story. So on the, have you ever ridden the Katie trail? It's in Missouri. It's basically like the CNO canal. But it's in Missouri. And what's so cool is like, I'm going to go to the CNO. You probably see this when you go places like, I think one of the things I love the most about our country is like, people are so proud about where they

live. And they take so much pride and they have so much reverence for it. Like, if you go anywhere near Missouri, they'll tell you about how cool the Katie trail is. And like, they think it's like the most unique thing in the world. And it is pretty unique. But it's just the CNO canal. It's like, basically what we have in DC, you know, it goes from

Georgetown to Haker's town. Right. And so like, it's awesome. But it's like, it's similar to what there is around the world. But like, they had like the, the head of the park service come out and meet me. They had like the, the mayor of Jefferson City, which is the capital of Missouri come out. But like, one of my favorite experiences is like, I had these little

old lady and man come out. And the guys like, Hey, you know, we want to support you. Our sons like a big fan, you know, we came out. They like, you know, waddle up and they're like, hokas and they're like, we were our hokas. I was like, no way. That's awesome. And he reaches in as well to give me a $50 bill. And she reaches over

and slaps his hand. She's like, no, no. And, and, and so he, you know, it gives me like a $10 bill. And what I loved about that interaction was like, it didn't matter that, you know, they didn't give us, you know, a 50 bucks or whatever. What was it? You could just see like that's been their relationship. And like he's the like big spender, you know,

like he's like, he's coming from the heart. He's like the head. Yeah, yeah. But like, they make such a little perfect couple, you know, and like, those interactions, like, is something like so unique and something that. You wouldn't get a glimpse of someone's life if, if I hadn't, you know, been doing it in that way. Yeah. And you ran into some transcon runners along the way,

right? Like other people that were doing it or coming from the other direction. Yeah. I ran, well, I had two friends doing it. So Richard Donovan, who does the seven marathon seven day seven continents, he was doing it. And so we actually met in Missouri, like, right off the KD Trail, he was going east to West and I was going West to East. And then I

had another friend that was going kind of like a Northern route. But I had a guy that I ran into again, I think it was in maybe Kansas. And it was in the middle of nowhere, dude. It was like 11 o'clock in the morning, like between two towns, but like far, like 20 miles. And it was just kind of hot. Like 95 degrees. And I see

this guy shirt off, stroller. Like, I'm like, there's no way that guy's just out for a run around his block, you know, like, like out in the middle of the nowhere with a stroller. Yeah. I'm just like, that's got to be another transcon runner. And I was like, Jennifer, I'll call you back. And I like, run across the street. And I'm like, dude, are you running

across the country? He's like, yeah, are you running across the country? I'm like, yeah. And it was like, dude, I needed to see somebody else doing this. And I was like, where'd you come from? He's like, Norfolk. And I was like, oh, no. Anyway, Norfolk, Virginia, he's like, yeah. I was like, how long ago did you leave? And he's like, I don't know, 15 days. And

I was like, what? I was so excited because I was like, going across the Western states, like, you could be in Nevada for like seven or eight days. Right. And so I was watching my friends go from East Coast to West Coast. And they'd be like, oh, I'm in Massachusetts. Now I'm in Pennsylvania. Now I'm in Illinois. And I'm like, I'm still in Nevada. Like, and

then going across Kansas, like, everyone is like, you're going to hate your life. And I actually loved it. I thought it was amazing, but it's a humongous state. Like, I was running across Kansas for nine days. Like, just insane. Never ending. Never ending. Yeah. I can't remember who it was. He was either Robbie or or hella talking about like once you, when you go West to

East, after you get over the Rockies and then you're going, you know, you have these long, flat expanses, et cetera. But you kind of think it's this slow downhill all the way to the East Coast. And then you hit like the mountains around West Virginia. And it just destroys you. Right. So I don't know if we're 50, like, where that actually, you know, that tracks with

what these guys were talking about. But they said that was like a soul crusher because you kind of you're, you're getting really close. And then it's like this wall that you hit that totally true. Yeah. And I knew that going in just because I'd from around here. And I think so many people like think the Rockies are so imposing. And they really are like there was

big days and big climbs. But the little climbs, I mean, that's what makes Barkley so hard. Like, I've done that race a couple of times. That's the one thing that you haven't cracked that one. No, dude, not even close. Like, I haven't even made it a single loop yet in time. So, but like, I know like the short little climbs of Appalachia and East Coast or

our legit. And I knew that going in. And I was like, I think my route had 130,000 feet of elevation gain. And I got to like West Virginia. And I was like, at 90,000, I was like, well, there's a there's 30,000 feet coming up in the next couple of days. 30% of your grade remaining. Yeah. What, what, what was the hardest point? I mean, did you

have like a some breaking moments or? Yeah, I mean, I think there were a couple of hard parts. Like, I'd never been away from my family that long. So like, that was really hard for me. Like, I wasn't expecting it to be that hard just from traveling the world and being gone on all these adventures. I wasn't expecting to miss them as much as I did.

That was, that was hard. But like, as far as like, physically, like each and every day was so hard. Like that last like 10 miles every day was like finishing 100 mile. Like, it was really, really hard. I was not expecting that. I figured kind of what we were saying earlier is like, as you go, you're going to just going to get stronger and stronger and

stronger. But I didn't realize is like, the longer you go, you're getting so strong. But you're also just getting stronger. So much more tired. So it's like the strength that's almost balanced out or like, in some days, it could be an kind of unequal. But I think the worst thing was I had about 500 miles to go and I truck veered over the white line and

tried to like scare me hit me. I'm not sure. And I had to, I was in the middle of the stride. And I had to stop running because he got that close. Like if I would have kept swinging my leg, I would have crashed into his bumper. And so I had to. And like kind of veer off the side of the road. And at that moment,

I felt my hamstring pop. And I was like, oh man, this is not good. And I still had 10 miles to go for the day. And everyone's like, you should just get in the car. And I was like, no, man, I'm trying to average like 52 miles a day. So I was like, I'm just going to walk it in. And that was a really low point.

Like I couldn't put weight on my on my right leg. I, yeah, I was, I was like, so mad. Because I'd been so disciplined like every day, not overdoing it, you know, taking care of my feet, taking my socks off every time I come into the car, like putting on sunscreen, like putting on chapstick, like doing all the little annoying things to make sure that I

get there. And to have somebody kind of ruin that or potentially ruin that for like no reason that I could see other than me just being on the road. Like I was really just kind of mad at the world and life and and. Yeah, I didn't know if I was going to be able to run. So how did you bounce back from that? Just get, get

in the car, get massage or how do that get worked out? So you could bounce back and get back on it. Well, so instead of like it taking like two hours to go 10 miles, it took like three and a half hours to finish it off for that day. I got in the car. I called my personal trainer, my guy, Jesse. And I was like, Jesse,

what do you think? He's like, is it black and blue? Like I don't know, I can't, I can't put weight on it. I can't even like get out of it. You know, like I don't know if you've ever been that hurt where you can't like take your shorts off. You're like, this really, really hurts. I basically like cried myself the bed basically. And like was like,

I don't know what to do. Like I don't want to, he's like don't stretch it anymore. Don't really do anything. If it swells up like he's like try to put some ice on it, which I did. But he's like, I don't know if that's going to really help. And a lot of times I don't know if he's going to be able to do it. If you

do this, but if I turn my ankle or stuff, I actually just leave it and don't put ice on it because I want the blood flow to pump through there. Or you do like a little bit of ice and then let the blood come kind of rushing back. So you get and get like that burst of blood flow to it. And I woke up the next

day. And it was still kind of hurting as I was like taping my feet and putting my shoes on. And I was just like, I'm just going to walk the first hour and see how it goes. And then I came to like a kind of a slight downhill. And I was like, well, we're going to see how this goes. And I just started running like shuffling

really not really running. And I was like, I don't feel it hurting. And then I continued to run the rest of the day. And then if I'd run, I don't know if you've ever done like a hamstring. But when I've done it, like if you push too hard, like it starts to twinge. As soon as it did that, I would just start walking. And I just

did that for the whole day. And it just sort of sorted itself out. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Lucky. Dude, it's so lucky. Yeah. I was just thinking like 500 miles of walking. This is going to take instead of taking 500 miles would be about 10 days. This is going to take 20 days, right? Or more. Like I'm like, that's just going to mean like, I'm not going

to finish anywhere close to where I want to finish. But I mean, I felt like I could still walk on it. But I was like, this is just going to be terrible. What I extract from that is that the little things are the big things. It's all about like, you know, the fact that you race so much that, you know, for the most part without you've

been able to like sidestep injuries and, you know, have all these incredible achievements. It's really a function of consistency, like waking up early, showing up every single day, paying attention to those small things, the details, whether it's taping your toes or making sure you got lube in your, you know, in your armpit or whatever, you know, your, your inner thigh or whatever it is. Like those

tiny things, this effort to, you know, control all the variables that are within your control and yet at the same time in the story you just told, like you can't anticipate everything. There's always going to be something that can derail you. But when you're paying attention to as many of the things that are within your control as possible, that's really kind of the path towards achieving,

achieving the big goals are about like doing the tiny little things every day. Yeah, the annoying little things. Like the things you don't want to do, right? Like, no one wants to do anything. It makes me always sense to wake up an hour early to tape their toes. Like I'm, at least I don't like it. That's not what like makes me excited or like making sure

that you've gone to the bathroom three times before you show up at the start line. And it's not like I started out doing it this way, like, I think, I think one of my favorite talks that as far as like the audience was like, I was at the San Francisco marathon and they're like, you know, you've done this talk a million times. I'm sure where it's

like, you know, tell me your race day tips and it's like, you know, with the, wake up two hours before the race and, you know, eat and then, you know, what do you eat, uh, bagel or whatever it is, right? And I was like, you know, I'm going to do a different talk today. I'm going to tell you all the things I've done wrong. Like, so

I've, the reason I can tell you what to do is because I've done everything wrong. Like I've shown up with races with no shoes before and like had to borrow my buddy shoes because I was like, oh, I'm for sure put them in my bag. And so now if people follow me on Instagram, they see like lay out my kit the night before because, I've showed

up without safety pins. I've showed up without the right chip, you know, in South Africa, where you have to buy the chip ahead of time, you know, I've rocked up to the race without Loub in the goby desert. And I was like knocked out of the race because I had gastrointestinal problems and had it not been for some guy on a mope had driving by with

like diaper cream. I would have been, you know, still in the goby desert somewhere. So like, like, I learned all the, the things that I have to do because I've done all the things wrong in the past. And so like if you keep making mistakes and you don't learn from them, that's a problem. But if you realize like, oh, maybe I should lay my kid out

the night before. So that I, you know, don't show up without right. It's no big mystery. It's like basic common sense kind of things and like planning ahead. Right. But like going beneath the surface on all of that, like I'm interested. That stuff's all fine. But like, what is it that's like driving you? Like what's behind all of this that is compelling you to tackle these

challenges? Like what are you trying to learn about yourself or what is it that you're kind of exploring internally? Like what is the, you know, what is the, the teaching that you're extracting from all of these adventures? I think at the base level, I want to see if I can do it. I want to see if it's possible for me. And if it's not possible now,

is it something that I want to invest in that it will be possible in the future? So, but why is it important to you to try to see if you can do these things? I don't know. I think, I think I'm always questioning to be better. Like I think I want to, I want to get the best out of myself. And I, and I feel like

right now it's through these kind of big, ridiculous challenges. And I think, I want to, I want to showcase for people that it is possible. Like I, I didn't come from a big, you know, endurance background. I didn't know any of these things when I first started. Like I started like so many other people with like a little goal. And then from there, I was like,

maybe I can do something else. And, you know, eventually I'll reach something that I can't do. And then you have to decide if you want to, if you want to keep going and try to do it. Like right now, like, please. Yeah, like, barkly, right? Like, I know that like it's possible. People have done it, but like, is it possible for me? Why is that so,

you know, intractable? Like what is it about that race that just cracks everyone? Um, I think the thing, well, for me, I don't have a lot of the, the, the best skills for it. Like I think like you have to be really, there, there's a couple of ways I think you can do it. Or like it looks to me that you can do it. Like you

can just keep going to the race. So that you just put the time in. Like I, I, said, it's kind of like pledging, right? Like you just keep showing up and like, eventually, eventually, you get hazed enough where you are like, okay, I know where the book is. And, or I know what, I know what he means when he says like the cold road or like

go past the sofa on the Lately of the Valley. Like I know what all the like flowers are they just talking about. And so I've learned the lexicon. I've put my time in. I know all the candy trails like, you know, the regular trails. And I know what bird mountain looks like. And then you just have to get lucky with weather. Like I think the biggest

thing for Barkley is like getting decent weather, because if you get the fog that comes in a couple times when I've been there, like I'm not seeing you like. And so the only way to get through it is to know the course really well, be really incredible at navigation and get lucky with weather. And then you have to have the fitness. So is that something you're

going to go back to? Uh, I'd like to. Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, I think that's what I'm going to do. I think, uh, but if you don't want to do the work, I don't think you should take a spot from somebody that's willing to do the work. So like if you're just going there, just to like say that it's like, oh, I did barkley.

Like I don't want to, I don't want to take someone spot unless I'm ready to like fully commit. Yeah. So what are the, the big goals that are looming out there that you're thinking about right now. Um, yeah, I think this is actually one of the hardest things, right? Like coming off of like a run across the country. Like everyone's like, oh, what's that? I, I,

I don't know, mention those, I, I don't liked our mission behind it. And I think it's really dark. The, yeah, you know, it's in the restaurant where you're at, uh, specific restaurant, uh, tickle belly standpoint. Um, like these guys do a variety of stuff like that. I'm curious that your advice for me is that you're going to be able to learn a lot on this stage.

Uh, 2000 miles like or crossed into a state like you get a kind of a boost in, yeah, I got a huge rush when I was like, I just ran the entire Appalachian trail distance, you know, like not the vertical right because the vertical was like way more than what I was doing. Doing these crazy things you're never there. Yeah, yeah. But you're a partner, right?

Can they even fire you? Yeah. Well, I'm actually one of the owners now. So like, I have to fire myself. I go out of business before they can fire you. But like, right. So like, um, so like the Appalachian Trail. And then you're the, you're the reason why we have, um, you know, all these issues with, uh, supply chain, right? It turns out it has nothing

to do with the pandemic. It's all because you're just not at your desk. Yeah. Right. Now these cargo ships are like, yeah, we're like, we can't, we can't come into Long Beach because we can't get Mike on the phone. Yeah. No. Um, no, that was actually great. Like I, that was actually one of my biggest fears was telling our big client. Like, um, it's a company

called Merce line limited, who is like, I, I don't know, like the biggest, right? Yeah. They are the biggest. Yeah. And so like, I was like, oh, man, I really want to do this. And they're like, that's amazing. We want to help you. And I was just freaking out about that conversation. And so I was really happy that they came on board. Um, but I think

I'm going to be able to do this. I'm going to be able to do this. I'm going to be able to do this. I'm going to be able to do this. I'm going to be able to do this. I'm going to be able to do this. I'm going to, yeah, like as far as goals, like the Appalachian Trail, and then I have this ridiculous interest in,

and this is really far out there for me. But like doing, like, you've done some of big swims, but like a, like a swim around Manhattan, I think would be kind of cool. Like, people do that one. I love that one. That's, that's definitely on my list. Yeah. Like I think, I, and I'm not a good swimmer. Like, you're a good swimmer. Like for me, my

longest swim is the beginner's mind thing. Like you would want to do a long swim. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm very bad at swimming. Um, as far as like form, and like, I think the longest swim I've done is three miles, and it took me longer than running, like, a marathon. Like it was like two hours and 25 minutes to go three miles, like in the ocean,

but like still. And I really wanted to do the nine mile swim, but I freaked out. Like I was like, oh, you have to get a crew and like, you know, you need like a boat next to you or whatever. Uh, and then I want to row across the Atlantic. Like that's something like, and so I've been talking to a friend in Arlington that I won't

name because he like hasn't told his wife, because I like called him about it. And I was like, dude, you so want to do that. And he's like, yeah, let me go outside though. I got to walk the dog because I don't want to tell my wife yet. Well, I got a few guys that you can talk to about that who have some experience with the

heck on it. Yeah. I don't know anything about that world. Yeah. But I think that would be really cool, especially like that's like for real adventure. Like, and I feel like that's like what I'm looking for. Like those adventures, like, and there's a lot of other things. Like I want to like climb Everest, but like my wife and I have a deal where I can't do

that until the kids are 18. So that's a good rule. Yeah. I think I saw a quote where you said you were asked this question. You said, I have so many things I want to tackle next. I want to row across the Atlantic and I want to run the Appalachian Trail. I want to do the Pacific Crest Trail, run across all the continents. And then also

run on the moon. Yes. You actually said that. Yes. Yes. So you're dreaming big, my friend. Dude. Well, I think if you just keep putting out, so I've been saying that for a long time about running on the moon, or like I would take Mars, but Mars a little bit further away. But yeah, I think I think that could be really cool. And I mean, it's

not possible yet, but I don't know if it's going to be that far off time. I'll tell you. Yeah. Well, that's Jeff Bezos. Yeah. Are you on? Yeah. Where does becoming a professional pickleball player fit into all of this? Because that seems to be the thing you're most fired up about right now. Oh my God. I'm so lit up on that. Yeah. I just was able

to partner with a company called Yola. So they are sponsoring the best players in the world. And so a guy named Ben John. You are a professional. Then you're a professional. Well, you're sponsored. Yeah. But it's very, it's very early stages for sure. And I'm, I'm definitely like, I don't know if you know, like how the rankings go and pickleball. I know nothing. So it's like

tennis. It's like 2.5, 3, 3, 5, 4, 4, 5 is like, you're really good. Almost pro. And then kind of above five, you're pro. So I'm like, 3, 5, 4. So like, you know, very early. Early stages. But yeah, I'm spending a lot of time playing pickleball and drilling and like working, I'm with a group called the Arlington Iron Pattles. And there's like 70 people in

the group. And everyone wants to be a pro. So like, we're working really hard. So like, I'm learning shots and, you know, meeting people to drill at like seven o'clock in the morning, paying like $20 on the weekend to go get my butt kicked in these little tournaments that we're hosting. And it's weird how that's become such a thing in such a short period of time.

Like it went from nothing to, you know, I have so many friends who are obsessed with playing it. Like, how does that happen? Like, it's weird how culture happens that way. Like, yes. It just this thing percolates up. And then suddenly we all agree that like, this is a cool thing. And we all should be doing it. Yes. It's so weird. And especially when I first

heard of it, I was like, oh, that's that sport. The old people play, right? Like paddle board tennis or whatever. Yes. Exactly. Or like ping pong. Or something or or bachi. Like I play on a bachi league also. Like, of course you do. What? Yeah. I don't understand the time schedule. Yeah. You fit all these things in. It's it's it's I don't know. It's somehow it

works. But as far as like pickleball, like it's it's easy to learn but hard to master. It's kind of like I like I don't know if you saw it, but I also like play chess. And I'm like trying to get better in chess. And so like I find these little hobbies and kind of go deep as I can on them. And with pickleball, like, I feel

like it's just. It's almost, I guess Josh now we're talking about this too is like somebody is like the first time you hear something, you kind of like, it's in your consciousness, but you don't really notice it. And it's like, take seven times until you kind of realize that you have seen it before. Like, it's almost like you buy a car. And then all of a

sudden, you see that car everywhere, you know. And I feel like that's with pickleball. It's like, you know, somebody was playing it. And then all of a sudden, LeBrom James buys a team or like Drew breeze has a team or Tom Brady's buying a team. And you're like, Oh, this is, you know, a thing. But it's been around for a while. And right. But it it's

having its moment right now. Yeah, totally. It's so hilarious that you're pursuing this like most runners, especially elite runners would would not only like not be interested in that would would like avoid it like the plague because it just feels like a recipe for injury. Like, you know what I mean? Like there's so many all the lateral movements and the quick bursts and all of that.

Like, it would be so easy for you to, you know, pull a hamstring or calf muscle or something like that. But you're like, no, no, no. Well, and I think that it's actually good because we do spend so much time going. Street like in and unless you're trail running and then you're getting a little bit more of that. But like, I think it's great. Like I,

I've noticed that it's, it's made me more limber and it's good. I think a lot of people that are in endurance sports maybe don't come from like a racket sport background or like a, you know, ball and sport background. And so like, that for me is fun too. Because like growing up playing lacrosse, I do have those like kind of skills. Like what's annoying though is

when you see someone come from tennis and they're like, Oh, I've been playing for like two weeks and they can make all the shots and like they're making you look stupid because they like just know how to hit top spin. Like I am. Struggling like I really want to like be able to hit top spin and like, I see someone tennis background and they're like, Oh,

of course you can hit top spin. Like, yeah, I mean, you're, you're very humble in saying like I didn't come from an endurance background. And I don't have any great gifts. But usually people who are in endurance sports part of the reason they're in it is because they have no I hand coordination, which is I would count myself as one of those people like. But you're

a ball sports guy first. Yeah. Developed this huge endurance. Engine, but also happens to be really fast and can like hit a ball and play chess like your neurochemistry, like your neural network is extremely diverse. And I'm interested in like how all those things feed each other. Like is that a conscious thing? Like I'm going to do all these things because they make me better at

the thing that I'm most passionate about. Or is this just like a reflection of your general curiosity to be kind of a renaissance person. I mean, I think there is curiosity. I think they all help each other. Like if you want to be a good chess player, like you have to be logical. Like there's no like chess is a game, but it's really not. It's like

everything's known. Like there's no like I think I don't you didn't have any duke on right? Like the professional. I know she is. Yeah. Yeah. Like she's amazing. But like a game like Texas Holden or something like there's chance involved like chess like all the moves are known. Like there's no surprises. It's like if you make a bad move like the computer. That's how you made

a bad you made a bad move. And so like, but the same is like. And I think you know this. Like if you push too hard in a race, you might know that's a bad move. But it might be the right move because there might only be 800 meters left. Right. But if you push too hard at the beginning of the race, like there's going to

be consequences. And I think like. And so many of the things that we do like. And the things that I'm trying to do is like hopefully they're impacting. What else I'm doing in a positive way, right? So like the chess is helping me with like decision making. And my endurance is helping me with my chess. And then the pickle balls helping me with like lateral movement.

And also just having fun. Like it's just really fun. And it's like. Also like I get to learn like a whole new Lexicon like I get to learn like. There's so much drama in it too. Like the pickle baller don't like the tennis people like I didn't know this was a thing like the tennis people don't like the pickle baller. And like that's trying to find

courts and like. Yeah. But it's like. Someone and I we were talking. It's like when the skiers first had like snowboarders coming to the mountains. And they're like, but this is where we play. You know, it's like. I can't we all play like it's not going to be worse for you. I don't think like. Why can't we get along? And then it's like. You know, don't

hit it hard at this person because if you do they're going to be mad and like. So it's been fun to kind of navigate that. landscape also. So I think I like to keep things interesting and fresh. And I think, you know, pickle balls allowing me to do that. And I'm seeing just how much. Like interest there isn't it. But also like. There's so much skill

involved. Like it seems like it's you just kind of knock the ball around. But then you watch the people at the top level. Like I was just at a pro tournament this past weekend with the Yola team. And like just watching them at that level. It's like wow. Those guys are. Incredible athletes. Well, the joy piece like the fun piece seems to be really important like

a driving force. And also. Like the friendships in the community, right? Like the. Ultra runner landscape is littered with lone wolves. You know, people who you know, like go there. They're going into the pain cave and having their own private, you know, kind of experience with what it means to push their own limits. And certainly that's part of it. Of course, when you're running across the

country, you're alone a lot. But what animates you really seems to me to be like the people and the, you know, the adventure that happens when you're doing it in community. Oh, for sure. I think that like. When I set out to do the run across the country, like I actually postponed it. Because of injury, but also because when I did start to feel better, like

I didn't want to do it. If people couldn't join me like during COVID. So like I waited until I thought it was appropriate for people to be able to come back. And then I thought, well, I'm going to come out and be a part of it because I really did want that forest gump experience where people are like, oh my God, he's coming through my town.

Like I'm going to, you know, call in. And the fear was so out of control. Yeah. Oh my God, it was out of control last week. My wife's like, you got to cut it before you go see Rich. No, I really enjoy it too. And I was just. Yeah, that's that's exactly what I was hoping for. Like it would move people to like I had people

like flying out from like Richmond to. Indiana to run with me or. You know, somebody from Indiana ran with me and had so much fun. They came to finish the last day with me. And so like, just to have people like have so much fun that they're like telling their friends to come the next day or they show up again. Like, I mean, that was just.

Yeah, it's cool. And like, and I had so many people. We had like special boss made for it. And like if someone did an ultra with us, we would give them a buff like, but we wouldn't tell anyone. So like, you know, like I had so many first time ultra people, you know, that ran. And their first ultra along the journey with me. And that was

just like, man, I can't believe that you allowed me to share that experience with you. And you were part of my experience. But like, I just, you know, just to see somebody do something that they didn't think that they could do. So cool. And then the kind of downstream effect of that on their life. Because once they've done something like that, it totally expands your perspective

on what you're capable of. And like not just as an athlete in all areas of your life. Well, yeah. And it's not just them, but then their family knows that it's possible to like my family. When I first started, they didn't know that people could run 50 miles. And now like, they know people run 50 miles. They know people run across continents. Like, they know people

run in all different places. Like, that's what it was so cool. Like, I think one of my best experiences, like just two weeks ago, my son and I ran a half marathon. And like, was that his first half marathon? It was his first half marathon. He looks like he's like, I don't know, 15 something like that. 16 could call. Yeah. And so we were just, I

was like, oh, I'm going to be running the Baltimore marathon. He's like, oh, I'll run the half. And I was like, wait, what? And like, I just was like, wow, this is like, when he was just a little baby, I was like, someday, maybe we'll run together, you know, and like, just to have that moment. But then to get to share it with like his cross

country friend, Lucas ran and my brother ran. And then we had all the people in Baltimore because I've run that race. I don't know, seven or eight times. And like, just to be out there cheering for us and like us getting to cheer for them and just to be part of the community again, like I missed that during COVID and I missed, I missed that chance

to reconnect with people. And that really feeds me to like, I've said it before, like I'm going to like an emotional vampire. Like, I just suck that energy in and like, you use it and it was great to be out there. How old is your, you have two boys, right? Yeah, two boys. Pierce is 16 and grants 13. Uh-huh. And so like, three weeks ago, we

did all did a 5K together and Grant ran, Grant's like been playing on the freshman football team and he's eighth grader. So like, he's getting, you know, knocked around by the freshman. And so he started to go and do some crossfit with me and he did his first 5K, like his first legit 5K. Yeah. And in terms of kind of parenting active kids, like you don't

strike me as a Joe DeSena type who's like, I'm setting the alarm up and like, dousing his kids with cold water at four in the morning to get them out of bed. Like, no, you're more of a, you know, attraction type. Like, I'm just going to set the example and let them make their own choice. Or how do you, you know, kind of get your kids

excited about doing the things that you love. That's exactly it. Yeah. I mean, Joe is a good friend. And so like his style is different than mine for sure. But yeah, I want them to come to it through their own means and like, I want to be there. Like if, and I think that was so awesome about like having that base of fitness, like you could

do the same thing. Like if your, your kids were like, Hey, we want to run an ultra with you. Be like, All right, let's go. Which one you want to do? Like the bulldog one right out back, you know, I'm not asked. They have not made that request. But like, it's there. I'm disinterested. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, go ahead. But I thought it was actually funny when

you were saying like you were doing a promotion for like just eggs. And like I just started eating those and you're like, but my kids actually like eat them. And like, I think that that's cool. Like that you expose them to these things. And if they choose to be interested, that's great. But at least they know it's there, right? Yeah. And so like with our kids,

like, I want them to know that it's possible. Like I want them to know it's out there. And if they express interest, then like I want to try to make it happen for them. So like they're super into gaming. And so we got them like gaming computers. And we've taken them to like professional gaming. Like they're really into this game. And we went to Montreal to

watch like the world championships. So they know what it's like at the highest level. Right. So like, man, if you want to do that, that would be amazing. Like it doesn't have to be, you know, what we're into. But we want to kind of facilitate whatever they're gravitating to. Yeah. Your job is the parent is to kind of fill is to notice when a spark of

inspiration hits and to kind of fill that gap and support that. Yeah. Yeah. And generally doesn't come in the form that you would like it to come or expect. Yeah. Because it's rigged that way. And there's something cool about that. Like you being a beginner's mind like, Oh, now here's your opportunity to become a gamer. Yeah. This is your other professional career that awaits you. Well,

and you can do it with your kids. Well, and, and so I have done a lot of gaming. And so like I was like the kid that like broke the Atari when it first came out. Like I flipped like Pac-Man and like I used to live in a group house. And like after I'd finished my runs, I would get on like one of those little trampolines

and like play Madden for like four or five hours, just jumping on the trampoline, you know, like playing my brother in our roommate. So like I'm huge proponent of gaming. Like I think it's so many people are like, Oh, screen time limited or whatever. And I think like most of us are on our screens all the time anyhow. And it's just getting them ready for what

they're going to face in the real world. And they have to make their own decisions, you know. Yeah. I remember as a kid, we would go to the Rojobeth beach in the summer, and we go to the arcade on the boardwalk and just spend hours playing Space Invader. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm older than you, but the old school games. Yeah, totally. And that's that's

where my relationship with gaming begins and ends. Oh, really? You're not gaming anymore? No. No. Not even on the Tesla like when it's charging. I know that those games are on there. I haven't done that yet. I played on Josh's on there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right. The last thing I want to talk to you about before I let you go is the kind of

process that you use to choose which goal to pursue. And then the kind of step by step and how you kind of assemble the plan towards achieving that. Because I kind of want to leave people who are watching or listening who are thinking about a big goal or maybe have never set an odd day. And then the kind of relationship goal for themselves, like how you

kind of embark upon that process for yourself and maybe some tools or principles that could, you know, guide the listener. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think a lot of times like my biggest thing is I always tried to say yes to as many things as possible. So like if I get an invite to a race in South Africa, I'll be like, yes. When I

decided to do the run across the country. But you have to, sorry to interject. Somebody who's probably getting invited to a lot of races. Yeah. You have to learn how to say no, right? Like how do you choose which things to say yes to and which things to say no to? Right. Exactly. And so like that's what, yeah, I was just about to say it was

like. When I decided like, okay, this is my only focus like to do the run across the country. Because usually I'm pretty open. Like there's some races that I want to do or, you know, I have some, some goals. Like it might be to run faster or like to run further to like, try to win my first 100 mile or whatever it is or like, you

know, hopefully get into hard rock or something, right? Like, but when the run across the country, it was like, I want to do this. Then I had to pick like, okay, when do I want to do this? Then I have to get, how do I get everyone on board that I need to be a part of this? So it was almost like, I drew up a

business plan, right? Like so I was like, okay, I'm basically going to form this corporation. I'm going to be the CEO. It's a bad corporation because we're just going to be losing money. Like this is not a, not a, you know, making money. But hopefully losing somebody else's money. No, no, no, this was, this is a hit the sponsors. No, these are expensive endeavors. Yeah. No,

this was, this was a very expensive endeavor. This is a once in a lifetime type thing. And I knew it was going to be expensive. And I was like, okay, but I want to make sure like our families on board first, right? That's, I think in all these things, like if you don't have your team, like your partner or your family on board, like it's just

not going to work. So like that was the first thing was like, how do I get my family to be a part of this and want to allow this to happen? So once I was sure that that was okay, then I decided like, okay, now how do I get work? And that was what I was really worried about this. Like, how do I get worked? So,

you know, allow me to do this. So then once I was like 100% sure, then I brought it to my partner. I was like, I really want to do this. And then I had an idea of like, okay, how instead of like, oh, I just want to do this, I had a, like, you have to go through like, what are the pain points, right? Like, what

are the things that are going to stop me from being able to achieve this? And for running across the country, it's like, how am I going to finance it? Like when am I going to do it? Who's going to be on my team? How am I going to get work to agree to it? So you just bank a checklist of like everything that needs to get

done. And then you just start going down that checklist. And then I just, like, I'm going to do this. And you have to order it in a way that like, if one thing doesn't work, then you have to figure out how to make it work before you can go to the next step. And so that's what I did basically. I was like, okay, I got the

family on board, figured out how we're going to make it work financially. And like, with the time off, then talked to my partner about it, talked to my clients about it, hired my friend Mark Cody, who came in to help me during that time. And I'd wanted the opportunity to work with him again anyhow. So it worked out perfect. Trained him for a year and a

half so that he was ready for the challenge. Year and a half, wow. Yeah. So yeah, I didn't want to come in and be like, oh, I don't know what to do. And then I was still there if he needed me. And I was still working along the trip. So like, if there was something he wasn't sure about, he'd just call me. Or he's like, I

need help. You're pretty available. Well, yeah, yeah. Well, and like, that's why I didn't want to set like, I'm not going to go for a world record or anything like that. Like, because if we have a deadline and there's something that needs to be done, like I would just schedule a day in a hotel the night before and just work with the clients to be like,

Hey, I really need the stuff now so that we can get this done so that I can, you know, go go for a run. Right. And everyone was super cool about it. And, you know, there were some days where it didn't work out the way we wanted and some stuff had to change. And, you know, I had to stop in the middle of the day. And,

and figured out, but like, that's, that's why I didn't put a deadline on it. And so I just set myself up for success. And like, things are going to happen. And, you know, it's not going to go like the way you want. Like I thought I had an RV company that was going to support the run. And then, of course, like the week before they were

like, yeah, it's not going to be ready. And I was like, Oh, okay. Well, cruise America. What's up? And so you just, you know, put yourself in the best possible position. And then just, you know, keep knocking those things off. And then for the run, it was the same thing. It's like, every day wake up, try to be super consistent. Like the first day, like, I

wanted to set the tone. Like we were at City Hall and like, you know, people are like taking pictures and everything. And I was like, we have two minutes, like we're leaving at seven o'clock, like the first day. And like, you just have to set the tone. And, and then each and every day, just keep doing those little things. And I think we mentioned this earlier

in the podcast. But if you, you know, keep doing the little things, the big things, things happen. But if you start thinking about the big thing and all the things that can go wrong, like, you just get stuck, or you get paralyzed. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Or you're thinking about the flower when you should be focusing on the root. Yeah. Focus on the roots. Flower takes care

of itself. Focusing on the roots are the little things that you're doing every single day. The watering and the tilling. The tilling of the soil. Yeah. Well, and you just keep stacking the little things. And then like, big things happen when you do that. Yeah. How do you do that? Do you convey that to your, to your kids just by, just by your actions? Or do

you actually like, sit them down and say, here's how you accomplish goals? No. How does that go over? No. Later, Dad. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wait. Can you take your AirPods out? Right. No, I think, I think. And you probably see this too is like, your kids, like no matter what you say, your kids are going to do what they see. Right. And so

if you're modeling things that you want them to do or achieve like, they pick up on that much faster. Then if you say, like, Hey, we're going to sit here for 20 minutes and talk about what it means to accomplish big things. And then I try to just engage with them as much as possible. And I think that that's one of the biggest things. Like, I

really miss them when I was gone. And I don't want to miss all these opportunities. Like, I had a chance to do a race in Bhutan in October called the snowman race. It's one of the places in the world that I haven't been that I really want to go. And they wanted us to be there for 25 days or something. I was like, I'm going to

miss like four cross country meets and five, five football games and like all the time in between. And I've already missed too much time this year. And I think you know this. But I, and I don't know if this is true. So like if you do a fact check, like some, I know your podcast doesn't do that. But like you can, I don't know, I should

probably fact check this. But like 90% of the time you're going to spend with your kids is before they're 18. So like, if you don't spend that time now, it's not coming back. And so I want to be as present as I can be. And so I've just been around. And and we'll just, you know, my son will be like, Hey, you want to go play

murder ball on the trampoline. And I'm like, yeah, let's, let's go do that. And then while we're out there, we're just talking about like, Hey, have you done your project in, you know, chemistry or history or whatever. And, oh, you need to, my, our son's doing a, you know, they go to this kind of cool school called HB Woodlawn where they have a lot of independent

study and, and direction. And it's pretty cool. It's really cool. And it's like a public school. And it's just a lot of it's super lucky that our kids got into it. And they're, he's doing a project on tourism. And so like we went to the, the library just the other day. Like I got them library cards. And like they had library cards. But of course they

is. And it's inspired during COVID. So like, but I was just there to be able to go with them. And that's when I saw all these cool books about travel, like these routes that I haven't seen before. Like now, like I want to run like the Silk Road and stuff because I saw it in this like book. But like just being around to help them, you

know, with photography or something like they're doing these cool projects. And I just want to be there and help as much as I can. And I don't think like sitting down and being like, Hey, you know, you should make a checklist. Like, yeah, that's like, that's, that's just, you get the eye roll. Yeah. But at some point, the Bhutan trip or the similar type of adventures,

perhaps you bring them with you, right? Oh, and that's what we've done their whole life. So like they've been, like one of our big goals is to get them to all seven continents. And they've already been to six continents as 16 and 13 year old. So I didn't realize. Yeah, you had traveled with them. Oh, yeah. So they've, they've got friends in New Zealand. They've got

friends in France and like they're actually doing a solo trip this spring together to France as a field trip. And my wife's like, Oh, we should go. And I'm like, no, no, they should go by themselves for them. Yeah. So like, yeah, next year we're going to try to hit Antarctica. And that'll be their seventh continent. Nice. Yeah. That's exciting. Yeah. So their world travelers. Cool.

And I think that they've learned so much. I think, I mean, I don't know if you've had the chance to take your kids around the world with you. But like, there's much more that can be learned from, you know, trip to Japan where you just get to see so much unique stuff or a trip to France or an opportunity to be 100%. Like, yeah, I mean,

my brother and I talking about this, like he's taking his kids to Portugal. And like, they're going to miss a couple days of school. And I was like, anytime that, yeah, anytime that we've like gotten one of those, like, Hey, you know, your kids need to be in school. We're like, okay. Yeah, like they're learning a lot in in the real world too. Yeah. I just

think, yeah, there's so much to be gained from the worldliness of traveling to foreign locations for kids at that impressionable of an age and like missing school because of like that kind of a broadening experience. Like it doesn't even, you know, yeah, equate. Well, I'm fine. And what I think is awesome is like they know that there's different ways to do things. Like they know that

they you don't always have to, you know, have the easy, easy meal or they know like sometimes the train doesn't come and we have to figure another way out to get there or, you know, sometimes your bags don't show up or that's why you only carry carry on. Creative problem solving. Yes. Exactly. Or like, yes, your mom, dad are going to give you a, you know,

a caffeinated beverage at two o'clock in the morning so that you can get off the plane, you know, like. Yeah. So they've are, yeah, you probably shouldn't put your iPad in the back of the airplane so that we have to go back to the airport the next day because you've lost it, you know, like, yeah, those things all happen. All that kind of stuff, man. Yeah.

Cool. Well, let's just end this with, uh, with, uh, you know, a little sort of inspirational words of wisdom for somebody who's, uh, who's, who's inspired by what you just shared and is, is ready to go and is thinking about, it's not going to be the first running race, but trying to do something hard. Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest thing for me and I

think for a lot of people is just finding something that lights you up. I think you mentioned this earlier, but like, if you don't have something that you're a little bit scared of or you're a little bit intimidated about, like, it's going to be hard to like wake up at 445 in the morning when the covers are warm and, um, but if, if there is something

that you can find that you're interested in, don't be afraid to go for it. Like, I think signing up is like the first step and like, it doesn't even have to be a race. It could just be like, hey, I want to, you know, try to go to my local trail and, and run it. And, and I thought you actually had somebody on, like, not that

long ago that said, like, the 12 hour walk from your front door. Yeah. Colin, Colin, over 80. Yeah. And it was awesome. Like, I was like, that's exactly what would be a great first step for a lot of people is just go, like, somewhere close and just do something unusual or take the train to the other side of town and like, figure your way back to

your house. Like, it could be like, I've a friend that started a race called Eco Trail in Paris. And you basically, like, I was like, I'm going all over the world to run. Like, why don't I just have a race like, I go train. I take the metro out of Paris and then run back to the Eiffel Tower, you know, like, when I first started running,

like, one of my big runs is I'd run down to the Washington Monument and just be like, wow, I can't believe I get to run like to the Washington Monument or like the Lincoln Memorial, like, and that's like maybe seven or eight miles from my house. But like, you know, seven miles there, seven miles back, all of a sudden, it's 14 miles. That's a pretty big

thing. You know, and it could be that or it could just be like, hey, I want to, you know, go to Starbucks and run home from there or walk home from there. And, you know, it starts small. But if it is something like big, like, I think do it, man, like, there's so many people that I see like, wait to do something big. And then something

gets in the way or they don't have the health to do it anymore. And like, it's cliche and dumb, but like sees the sees the opportunity sees the moment because you never know what's going to happen. Like, I have so many friends that are retired and then they're like, like, I have, you know, dreams to go to Greece or like, I'm going to spend all this

time with my family and like something happens and it, it doesn't work out that way. It never happens. Yeah. I mean, you, you have to begin. You have to develop an inclination for action, even if those are small steps. I think a lot of people get paralyzed because they're waiting for their life to, you know, come into some sort of alignment where it all feels perfect

and makes sense. And it generally isn't, you know, life doesn't work that way. Typically, if it does, good for you. But the other thing I really love about your example and your story is, is you're somebody who has a passion, who pursues that passion very vigorously, but that passion doesn't come at the expense or the cost of like family community career. Like you didn't quit your

job, you know, like you have a, you have like a, you know, like in some respect, like a traditional kind of job career. Yeah. And that's very important and creates the stability for you to be able to do these other things. And there's something really kind of like grounded about that that I like because it's not this irresponsible, like, oh, just, you know, let go of

everything and like go into the, you know, go, like, you know, be like kung fu and like, you know, walk, walk into the wilderness because like I have a passion. It's like we live in the world. You have kids and responsibilities and bills and all of that. And yet you still figured out a way to pursue all of these interests that like light you up. And

you've been successful at them. But most importantly, they've given your life like joy and meaning. And I think that's really kind of, you know, it's powerful to be somebody who is as elite as you, but also like so relatable in most of how you spend your time. Yeah, I hope that that is, is, is what people take away. Like it's, um, I think it's, you know,

it's hard. Like it's, it's not easy. I mean, I think like, you know, I was jealous at times when I was, you know, you probably know the guy named Anton Capitska and like, you know, I would like battle back and forth and I'd be like, dude, he's just living in a, but he, he lives a totally different, like, that guy. Yeah. I mean, he's, might as

well be living in a cave compared to like the way that you live your life. Right. But like, it doesn't matter. When you show up to the start line, it doesn't matter. Like you just do the best with what you have, right? And so like if you're worried about what someone else is doing, like, that doesn't work. Like, but like, there are so many people that

go and they do like, I'm going to do two marathons a year. And I'm going to, you know, build up. And like, that's, that's what my life's going to be. And like, that's great. I'm glad that, you know, there's people that can do that. And they have really great performances. But that's just not, not what lights me up and gets me excited. And that's not my

life. Yeah. I got you. But I did have that. I mean, I did have that debate with myself. Like, do I want that life? You know, at a, at a various points. Like, do I want to walk away from this and, and be a full-time athlete? And like, what does that look like? And I'm, I'm happy that I didn't do that. I'm happy that I tried

to see if I could make it all work because you, you probably had this too, is like so many people say like, it's not going to work. And it's not like people trying to be negative. It's just like for a lot of people, it doesn't work. And I'm glad that it has for me. Yeah. Well, you seem happy. Yeah. Yeah. Fulfilled in the choices that you've

made. And is good talking to you, man. I appreciate it. And I wish you well. I'm at your service. Oh, man. Thank you. It comes to running on the moon. Let me know. Oh, dude. Yeah. I need a part. Maybe that might be worth having you back to talk about. Dude, I would love that. Yeah. Any, any time in. I'd love to hang out and do

this again. Some point. Yeah. Awesome. Well, it's, it's really fun to kind of watch your journey from afar. And it's, it's been an honor and a pleasure to meet you and talk to you. So thanks. Thanks a lot. Cheers. Peace. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to

everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, finding ultra. And that's it for today. I'm going to go to a website that's called the Boising Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power meal Planner at meals.ritual.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most

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