SBR Vault - Conversation with NBA & WNBA Champion

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This week, we look back at Brian's interview with Paul Westhead in BA and W in B.A. Champion Head Coach in C.W.A. Head Coach and creator of the system. Now enter the sports business radio vault. Now here's Brian's conversation with Paul Westhead from May 2020. My guest is Paul Westhead. He is the only head coach to win both an NBA championship with the Los Angeles Lakers in

1980 and a W NBA title. With the Phoenix Mercury in 2007. He and I got to know each other when he led Loyal and Mary Mountain University to the great eight in 1990 record setting offense that averaged 122 points per game and featured Bo Kimball and the late Hank Gathers. I was one of the radio voices of that team. He is the subject of the ESPN

30 for 30 documentary Guru of Go. And he has a new book coming out speed of the game. It comes out in November. It is my pleasure. Yeah, we saw eachother February 29 that the Hank Gathers statue unveil at Loyal and Mary Mountain. And I hope to sit down with you in person to do this interview, but given the pandemic. We decided it would probably be

safest to to have this conversation via phone because I wanted to do it sooner than later. Let's start with the beginning of your life. You were born in Philadelphia. What was it like growing up in the West Head household? Well, you know, I grew up in the heart of the city. So very young boy, I grew up in South Philadelphia, which my memories are kind of

vague about that. But then we moved to West Philadelphia and I went to a great school there and live in a row house and you know, classroom size 60, 70, 80, 90 in a classroom. And then I went on your own to kind of work through your desire to play sports. Who was your first basketball influence? Who introduced you to basketball? How did you gravitate to

that? Yeah, well, my first influence probably was, you know, my, I had an older brother, was five years older than me and he had, polio. So he was not an athlete. So he would take me with his, his buddies five years, my senior. He took me to the basketball courts and worked me over a little bit and surprisingly when I was a young boy, I had

a decent shot. And so they, they used me to shoot the ball. But that, that soon left me and as I went through my high school college career, shooting was not my expertise. I was a defensive demon. Unlike my own team. So it's kind of ironic that when I decided to start playing, I was like, I'm going to be a little bit more aggressive. I was

coaching and I got into the college ranks. So I kind of put aside the defense of world and, and stressed offense. Definitely stressed offense. Like I said before, Loyal and Mary, when we were together, 122 points per game, you created something called the system. What's the backstory on the system? How did you come up with that offense that was up tempo? And, you know, frankly, coach

is used routinely today. If you look at how the Houston rocket, the they're using the Golden State Warriors play, they're using a version of the system. Yeah, well, I was. The head coach, back in Philadelphia, the Salah University, I was there in the 70s, from 1970 through to 79 and during those years, two things happen to create the system. One, I became friendly with coach called

Sonny Allen, who was at Old Dominion University then. And he talked to me about his fast brake system and I spent some time with him and he showed me the simplicity of it. He said, it's really simple. He said, what I have to tell you, you have to be a little crazy to do this. So I said, well, I'm a little crazy, so he kind of

brought me in. And then the second thing that happened during those years, each summer, I would go to San Juan Puerto Rico and coaching the summer legs down there. Along with the number of other college coaches, Phil Jackson was down there, Dell Harris was down there. And originally Jack Ramsey and Red Holsen were down there coaching. So it was a hotbed of coaches. I tell you

this because during those summers, it gave me a chance to experiment with things. Things I might not ever do with my college team because I didn't know enough. I would practice, for example, my fast brake in Puerto Rico. So when I come back in the winter, I was much more confident in what to do and what not to do. And therefore the fast brake in the

mid 70s for me was for. When you're describing the system to someone, what's the best way to describe it? Because for people listening to this right now, I think that's the best way to describe it. And then I would go, okay, it's up Tampa, but what is it specifically? Well, specifically, it's very exact. Prime possession, you're getting one of two ways. You either get it on

a miss shot or a makeshot, on a made shot. We have a designated player, what we call our five man takes the ball out all the time. Now, when else takes the ball except the five. And he's going to out that the ball as quickly as possible to our point guard, who is the best player. He's streaking down the court. He never comes back to the

ball. He's going down the court. And he's going to receive the ball a little bit on the right side. Hopefully, five feet shy of half court. So he's on the move. And as he's doing that, we have a player running the right wing, a player running the left wing and another player, the fourth player running right down the middle of the court. So as our point

guard catches the ball, he turns and he's going to explode with his rib. He's going to go as fast as he can. And he's going to pass to any one of his teammates who are open. So it's pass for a score. So if he passes you the ball, there's a message on that shoot. So we don't have an elaborate offense. If you catch the ball, that

meant that you were instructed to shoot. So our players, we're always happy to receive the ball and shoot. When you first sat down with Hank Gathers and Bo Kimball, who were transferring from USC to loyal and very I'm out. I've heard the story that you showed them a tape of the system. And they thought that you had intentionally sped up the tape. And they were like,

come on coach, this can't be real. Take me into that first meeting with Hank and Bo when they were talking to you about coming to play for loyal and very not. We took them over to campus over to the administration area. They met with the academic dean who was then father Capers. And I remember being in there and he looked at their records and said, oh,

I see you, you took Russian and your freshman year. And they nodded and Bo was about to start elaborating on how he was good at Russian. And Hank put his arm on him like, you know, just shut up. So that got by okay. I mean, they they they. They were very respectful and conversation went well. So then it came back to me. And you're correct. I

showed them about five minutes of a game film. And they didn't say anything. So we walked outside. They were getting ready to leave them. And Bo said to me, coach, you're from Philly. We're from Philly. Don't push. You don't let me with you. And it's not like you four took up nothing about it. I know the so that's what changed them from looking around at other

universities. They said if you're going to play this face, we're in. Wow. Yeah. And you know, when I think back, the two of them and Jeff Fryer for sure, because he was such a great prolific shooter, seemed to be like just perfect for the system. When you watch today's game or even, you know, let's say the last 20 years, are there certain players that you look

at and go, wow, that person would have been perfect for the system. Yeah, I mean, I see them, you know, they seem to come and go, it's really hard to pick the mouth rhyme because. If they're not surrounded by others running with them, it's hard to, you know, to separate up. But I did have many stories. Over the years, I remember I was at an NBA

All-Star game years ago. And just by coincidence, I run into John Hablachek and we're chatting a little bit and he says, may coach, if I had played for you, man, I'd have been a great player. I said, John, you were a great player without me. So don't worry about that. But there are a lot of people who I meet over the years who say, I saw

how you played. And I'd love to play. And that's just, look, I'm going to shot that again. Look how much I would score. So yeah, yeah, there's a lot of players out there who probably would have fit. And there's some players who, you know, they were so good. It probably didn't matter. Michael Jordan, for example, I mean, he could play in my system and he could

not play in my system. He's still going to win. You coach two of the greatest point guards, maybe the two greatest point guards of all time in Magic Johnson. And Diana Terossi with the Phoenix Mercury. I look at them and how they ran your system. Was that kind of the peak of how the system could be run? Uh, Magic's probably going to be in the top

five of anybody's list on the men's side. And certainly Diana Terossi would be in the top five on the women's side. Perhaps if not first. And they had such talent. It's kind of ironic that you single them out. They both were not classic system players. Partially because they were so skilled and so talented that they wanted to and they were able to do multiple things. I'm

better off having players who were a little more single-minded. For example, maybe my one of my best point guards ever was Corey Gaines with my LMU team. For he was 64 and he could race that ball faster than a speeding bullet. So he had more speed, for example, than Magic Johnson. So, uh, it's kind of an interesting spin that you bring them up because they could

run the break and be successful. And their team could win. And they could not run the break and be successful. And their team could win. Uh, Diana Terossi, you know, could turn it on and turn it off. And sometimes players are smarter than you and your system. And they, they can control the pace. Which helps you win, but it wasn't exactly the speed game that I

needed. In Phoenix, I find he, we found he won moving Terossi over to the two spot where she was spectacular. And I had a young woman named Kelly Miller who played at the University of Georgia. And she came and she ran that ball like nobody's business like Corey Gaines did. And in Magic's position, as you know, Magic played every position. Like in our championship game, he

played center because Karim was injured. He played power forward. He played, you know, uh, wingman. And he was a point guard. So the two of them were great players for me, but ironically, not the perfect system players, although, uh, I was smart enough to put up with him. Do you ever look at today's game again? Houston Rockets and Golden State Warriors and say, you know what?

Maybe the system was like 20 years too early. Do you ever, do you have those thoughts? Yeah, I'm, I look around and it's funny to bring up Houston because, uh, Mike, the Antoni and I knew each other. And we do have a connected. Both of us. Uh, we're trained a little bit by Sonny Allen because Sonny Allen was from the, uh, West Virginia area where the

Antoni family, uh, came from. Uh, and then the Antoni and I, uh, we met again in Phoenix because when I was with the Mercury, he was with the, the Phoenix sons at that time. So we would, uh, I'd go to his practice. He'd come to my practice. He can't go. It came to our games. So we became friendly there. And I was amazed at how well

he ran the ball. Uh, he had Steve Nash and, uh, uh, uh, Amari Stautamire then, which is a great combo for, for a, for a fast break team. Uh, but to be honest with you, Brian, looking at the Houston team now, I don't see a lot of running. Uh, and not the way that the Antoni did in Phoenix and not the way that, you know, we

did in with the Mercury or with L. M.U. So he's kind of adjusted, uh, his game pattern. To his players and, uh, uh, they're, they're doing well and I think Mike does a great job, but they, they're not a model of fast, break basketball anymore. That, that's kind of been, uh, pushed the side a little bit. So, you know, a lot of people say, well, gosh,

they scored a lot of points. They take a ton of threes. Yep. That's not running. It's just shooting more threes. Yeah. It's just a different style. I mean, the, the Antoni hasn't abandoned everything. He, he doesn't want, you know, to run a pattern offense that you, you almost exhaust the shot clock and then somebody finally is open and shoots. You know, he, he's encouraging the quick

shot. He's encouraging the deep shot. Uh, so that it gives the semblance of fast break because you score a lot. But, uh, the real concept of the, my system, the speed, the game is the push the ball faster than the defense can get back. And so if you can get down in three seconds, they had the defense. That's exactly what we want. So, you know, we

would like the ball to be shot within five seconds. Uh, and it really didn't matter to me, whether it was a deep three or a driving layup or, you know, a 10 foot jump shot. It was just the quickness of the shot. Not so much the, the location of the shot. The other thing that I always thought was very underrated about the system. You know, I

remember when I was at Loyal La Maremount and I would talk to the guys, you had them running sand dunes on the beach. They were the best condition basketball team, maybe pro or college. And a lot of teams playing the system style, when they were suckered into it, they would just run out of gas in the second half. And because Loyal La Maremount was physically fit,

they ran them off the court. I mean, to me, Coach West had the, the, the, the enemy of the system was the Michigan game. When Michigan kept it close in the 1990 NCAA tournament. And then LME wins a winning by 34 points after pulling away in the second half. And, and, you know, they baited Michigan into the style of game, which was basically shooting threes for

twos. And then Michigan ran out of gas. Yeah. Uh, if you're going to pick a game, you know, that certainly would be an example. Uh, they were ultra talented team. I think three or four of their players were first rounds, or half choices in the NBA. Um, they were advised by Steve Fisher and who became a friend of mine, years later. And now I see him

almost every summer. And he said to them, don't get caught in a running game with this team, you know, uh, we're going to win, but you, you don't want to run with them because that's what they do. And he's a palm reflection. He said they heard him, but they didn't believe him. They felt that they were talented enough that if anyone wants to play fast, they

could overcome that. Well, by half time, uh, our players knew it was over, because we had them exact. We were, we were, we were playing fast. We played fast. We made shots. Now all of a sudden, can you do it for 40 minutes? And, uh, at that moment, we were the only team. Probably, probably in the USA that could do it for 40 minutes. So teams

would begin to break down. And once that starts, uh, it's, it's just a matter of how much you're going to win by. Uh, and it's interesting. Uh, yeah. Years later, I, and being with Steve, uh, he, uh, he still reflected on that game. He said, I, my guy said, just wouldn't slow down enough and, and you caught them. Uh, and, uh, as, as, as recent as

a year ago, I went to a banquet in San Diego or MLS. And Steve's son has MLS. Uh, and he was at the table next to me. I said, you know, I like over him and, and, you know, say hello. So his son is in a wheelchair and, and, and I went over and I said, hi, I'm, I'm coach West Ted. And, and he said to

me, he said, I know who you are. And he said, the last time I saw you, I was crying. And I looked at him. He said, I was at the game where you beat my father. I'm not. For the first time by the way, in the tournament. Yes, I know. That was his first love. So, uh, I mean, what are the, the life of a young

man though? I, I was a little nervous, you know, to say the right thing, right? He just broke me down and, you know, we were laughing together. But yeah, I said, well, uh, I appreciate your comment. But he was trying to protect his dad. You're listening to sports business radio. We'll be right back after this. When it comes to your health and longevity, you hold nothing

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inside tracker store. Just go to inside tracker.com. forward slash SBR. That's inside tracker.com forward slash SBR. Now back to sports business radio with Brian Berger. Let's go backwards for a minute. So your your first head coaching job in college is Atlas out in Philadelphia. You attended St. Joe's. Um, and then you become the head coach of the Lakers. And you get the job because Jack MacKenzie.

Kenny, who's the head coach was in a terrible bike accident. Walk me through like how that all took place because, you know, I remember being a kid. And obviously I had heard of you, but all of a sudden, like you're, you're coaching magic and cream and norm Nixon and Jamal Wilkes and Jack McKinney was, you know, injured in that, in that accident. It's probably not the

way that you had seen your, your first head coaching job in the NBA come to fruition. Yeah, well, I, um, I was at the South for nine years. Jack and I were friends because we both went to St. Joseph's. I was an assistant before my, a coaching job at the South with Jack McKinney at St. Joseph's for two years. So we kind of were basketball friends

and personal friends. So we knew one another. He got the offer to come to the Lakers. He was an assistant with Portland Trailblazers with Jack Ramsey, who was our coach. It's like the cycle of life here. And when McKinney got the job hired by Jerry Busce, he called me. Was that let's say how he said, like you to be my assistant. He hesitated for about two

seconds. I said, I'm on the next flight. So that's how it started. And then early in the first year, we had a, at a day off, which was very uncharacteristic at that time. And Jack McKinney called me and said, you want to play tennis. I said, yeah. So I live in a condo complex that had a tennis court. So we said, I'll come over. It's okay.

So I go over to the court, like about 10 a.m. And I'm sitting there waiting for him. And then it's 10 30, then it's 11 o'clock. And of course, this is before cell phones. So I just assumed that something came up and somebody at the Laker office called him in to talk about something. And I didn't have a phone. He didn't have a phone with us.

So hours later, his wife called and said, they found Jack a little company in Mary Hospital. And he had an accident and he was unconscious. And they didn't even know who he was. His wife kind of scoured the hospitals and found him. Wow. So the picking up that story within unconscious. The next day, we have a game. We have a shoot around like at 10 o'clock

in the morning. So I go to the shoot around. So I want to show you how the position is. I'm the only assistant coach. Back then, you only had one assistant coach. So when I show up the shoot around, if I don't show up, nobody shows up. Wow. So it wasn't like they said, hey, let's give West at this job. He's really a good coach or

he's this reason. They had no choice. Right. You know, I'm it. And you know, the players were obviously very sorrowful and devastated. And we kind of just stumbled. We've been able to shoot around. We played the game that night. I can still remember as if it was last night. This is about a minute and a half to go. And it looks like we're going to lose.

And I'm saying to myself, well, we lose this game. And this will be my last head coaching job. And Jamal Wilkes makes a spectacular fallaway jump shot that he's noted for. And we win the game. And that just allowed me to be around for another couple of days. So that's how it went for almost two or three weeks. They would say to me, well, coach the

game tomorrow. And then we'll talk again. So I think they were calculating, you know, what are we going to do? We don't know status of Jack McKinney officially. You don't know who we can bring in. So they were kind of stuck in the middle. And. I was the one in the middle. So one week led the two weeks led the three weeks. And then, you know,

I remain for the rest of the season. Coach, take me inside that locker room when that happens, because you've got cream Abdul Jbar, who most people thought was the best player in the league at that time. You've got rookie magic Johnson who, you know, comes with his own accolades. Jamal Wilkes, Norm Nixon. I mean, it's a strong locker room. It's a veteran team for the most

part. It's not like, you know, you come in there. You're leading a bunch of young players. How did you kind of gain their respect and go from, you know, sitting in the assistant seat to the head coach seat and have them look at you as a head coach. Yeah, that's kind of interesting. Now I think a couple things worked in my advantage. Some to my disadvantage,

but certainly to my advantage is one I had been a nine year head coach veteran in college. So I mean, for pure basketball, I knew the deal. I mean, I knew what to do, how to do it, you know, how to present it. So that wasn't my flaw. The other thing I had going for me was that we were a month into the season. And Jack

McKinney had done a terrific job. It's setting up his system and his program. And the players were very, very, very, very good. Very comfortable in it. So putting my coaching experience and his system together and just letting it go, you know, not trying to change too much. I think the players for the most heartfelt, very comfortable. The one downside that eventually exposes itself is, as a

college coach, you have no experience with players. Players as professionals and their agents and all that goes with it. So I was making decisions that players and their agents eventually would not be happy with. And the agents would say, Hey, well, he wants you to play defense. We want you to score points. So forget what he's telling you. You've gotten score more points. And I'll get

you a better contract. I didn't know that world. So I was really behind the curve in how to deal with professional players. professional athletes and their agents and what it meant to them. But I was okay with on court festival concepts, because that's what I knew when I was pretty good at. Have you ever look back? I mean, look, I spent almost every day looking back

going, well, if I knew then what I know now, I probably would have done that differently. Do you ever look back and say, well, that 1980 season or the 81 season, maybe I would have done some things differently. If I knew then what I know now, I'm going to do that. Now or are you pretty comfortable with how you handled it? Yeah, well, it's kind of

interesting. The 80 season, I can look back. In fact, they just been 40 years. This past May, eighth or tenth, whatever the date was. Forty years ago that we won the championship in my hometown Philadelphia against Julius Irving and company. So I don't think I'd have done anything different that year. I think I turned out pretty well. Reflect and say, Hey, I think I'll let that

one go. So, subsequent to that is kind of interesting because part of my reflections in some of my writings is a writer, a beat writer for the LA Times, Scott Osler asked me this question about a year ago. He said, Paul, how come you want a championship? Jerry Busce gave you the highest contract. I was a professional coach in the world. How come you then decided

to change what you were doing and run your fast break different than what the team was doing when they won the championship? And I said, that's an interesting question. Scott, if I have a thought of it, then I might not have done it. But I did change. I did implement my fast. I did not have a fast break more and more and more and some of

the players didn't accept it. Some of the agents didn't like what I was doing to their players or with their players. And therefore to answer your question, if I went back in time, if I just kept the status quo, I might have been there for 10 years. But I didn't. You look at it this way. I never made LMU. That's right. Yeah. So there's always good

news from bad news and getting fired. Yes. Philadelphia, you know, we just discussed. So you grew up in Philadelphia. You coached at LaSalle. You attended St. Joe's. It's been, it's amazing how many big moments in your life when I was researching you. I was like, wow. How ironic that you win that 1980 championship. But the Lakers in Philadelphia. And, you know, I remember our trip in

1989 when Loyal and Marymount played St. Joe's, though has the buzzer beater against St. Joe's. And then we play a national TV against Lionel Simmons in LaSalle where you would coached and beat them as well. Some really big moments in Philadelphia for you. Have you ever like stopped and paused and went, wow, Philly has been magic for me. Yeah. You triggered a couple of events that

have been spectacular for me. The championship, the the spectrum in Philadelphia, which, you know, a year before I was coaching at LaSalle and, you know, just an average coach in the big five. You know, we had some success. But, you know, it wasn't like I was sticking out above everyone else in the city. You know, I mean, people probably knew of me, but nothing to write

home about. You just another coach. And here I am a year later, coaching against their, their charms, six or team. And winning. It's kind of interesting. With this 40 year anniversary, they, the LA Times interview, Gene, he buss and she said about that event. She was like a teenage girl, maybe about 18 years old that she said her father said, you don't need to come to

Philadelphia for game six. Because we're probably coming back to play game seven in two days anyway. And his reflection was, the cream was injured and didn't make the trip. So 95% of the world thought that, you know, we would lose game six and return for the final game. So, Jeannie Bust stayed home. Ironically, the same thing happened with in my family. And I said to my

wife, well, honey, we're going back to Philly. So, why don't you come on back? You know, you can see some of your friends and family. So I didn't promise her a championship. She was a fan of her, but I said, come on back and you can see some, some of our friends. So she came back and made the flight. And was at the game. And the

irony of all this is, I'd probably had a half a dozen tickets. She gave away to family and friends. And she wound up having to get a single ticket for herself. And she was sitting by herself surrounded by six or fans. And as the game goes on, she's being very quiet. And I'm sure you're right. She doesn't want to play her hand at all, but with

about a minute and a half to go, we made a basket, went up to 10, I guess. And she jumped up and cheered. And they said, hey, who are you? And she said, well, I'm the coach's wife. So the game ends and 20 people around here stood up and applauded her. That's great. Which you never see happen in Philadelphia. Never. So they knew that she was

a Philly girl. And it was at least that was some consolation for them. But Philly fans are tough, but that moment they were very gracious to her. That's a great story. I'm so glad that she went. You just, you never know. No, you never know. Before that game. So like you said, cream doesn't play. And you know, the legend is Magic played all five positions. Was

there any special kind of conversation with him before the game of, hey, Magic, I need you to play all five positions. There did it kind of just organically happen. Yeah. It was, we're on the flight back from LA to Philadelphia. At that time, you know, all the teams flew commercial. So no one had any other private planes or anything. And the cream always sat in the

first row on the left hand side. So when I got on the plane, some of the players were ahead of me. And Magic was sitting in the first row on the left hand side. And he had already said something to other players that got on, but he just kind of nodded to me like, you know, we're okay, coach. So during the flight, I talked to him

and said, I want you to play center for us in this game. And he looked at me and he said, hey, I don't know, probably said, you know, I played center in high school, which if you look back, it was like two years ago. Yeah, I got no problem. So we had a shoot around. We went through a couple of plays and, you know, nothing was

the problem with Magic. It wasn't like all of it. Why don't we go over this? I need to study this play. He did it instinctively. And in the game, our first offense of possession, he goes into the low post. Nix and throws in the ball in the low post. And he does a turn around Scott book. And it goes in. And I think that's what I'm

saying. And then from that moment on, he played wherever he wanted to play. I mean, he played in a post for Kareem, but he played outside. He played guard and wound up with 42 points. Yeah, I mean, it's really remarkable because the way you put it, he was in high school, you know, not that far earlier than that game. And he's in an NBA championship game,

which by the way, coach, you know, in 1980, the games weren't even broadcast live. They were taped delayed. Yeah, I knew that. I mean, that's crazy how far we've come now. If you said something was taped delayed, you'd be looked at like you were nuts. But, you know, back then, he was taped delayed. You had to wait for the game to come on. I remember, and

I grew up in Arizona. I was waiting forever for those games. It was like 11 at night when they were coming off. I was begging my parents to let me stay up late enough to watch the game. So so much has changed. But, you know, what a special night for you that night. What did you do after the game? What did you celebrate? After the game,

whether it was another couple that we had spent time with when I was at LaSalle, they came to the game. We went back to the hotel, which was right by the airport, you know, the people like gathering around was kind of crowded, you know, friends and family. So we went out to a local diner. If you're from Philly, you know, everyone goes to the diner. So

we spent our time with them. We had a celebration that was called the mill rose done and here the airport. You know, we had classic like two steaks and scrap all in eggs and all the kinds of stuff that Philly people eat and just sat around. And that was our celebration. But it was fun. You're listening to sports business radio. We'll be right back after this

talent, hard work, focus and determination got you here. Now take the right steps to prepare for your future and ensure that you stay at the top of your game. They know your business Morgan Stanley will work with you to achieve your goals. I've trusted Morgan Stanley with my personal wealth management for almost 20 years. I think it's a great day for me. Good. Some people have

said he's the most gifted offensive basketball player who's ever played. And I think kids today, you know, they didn't see cream except for on YouTube and they don't realize how special he was. But maybe spend a couple minutes just reflecting on him. Yeah. Well, I'll start with telling you when I went to the airport. I got out of the airport and they were having to practice

at Inglewood High School. That's, you know, there were no practice. We practiced at the wood. I'm happy to have Inglewood High School. And I don't want to exaggerate this, but sometimes Inglewood wasn't available. And there was an outdoor park across the street from Inglewood on Manchester that we go there and go through some routine. That's unbelievable. And NBA team practicing on an outdoor court. Yeah, which

I think they had chain nets. Oh my God. And the players probably like today if you did that, players would revolt. But back then they were probably just like, all right. Well, guess we got to go outdoors. They say, well, you're gone, but we're not. So anyway, I walked to show up in Inglewood and they just started spreading out and doing different things. And we can't

go out and play. And I'm working down here with some of the guys with some defensive moves. Why don't you go down and just work with Korean. So I walked down and I said, hi, he said hi. And he was in the low post. So I got the ball and I passed it to him and he did a sky hook. So I passed it to him

doing the same thing. He did 30 sky books. He made, I think he made all 30. He might have made 29 of them. Wow. He turned to me. This took like five minutes. He said, that's enough. And I said, oh, okay. So I walked down the McKinney. I said, how is this easy, Jack? That was my first introduction to cream. And I found out because I

was kind of a basically a quiet guy. I was feeling my way that the one thing who did not want to do a cream of bilge bar was to try and impress him of how good or smart you were. That didn't work. So because I was just standing around and you want me to pass you ball, pass you to ball. But I wasn't going to say,

hey, why don't you drop your foot a little bit more or something? You know, I didn't get clever with him. So we became friendly. And it's interesting. Same cream was friendly with his fellow players, but he did not want to open up to the outside world at all. It was not friendly with fans or media. He kind of kept to himself. So if you had a

friendship with cream that was not like other people. And his ability. I'll just give you an example of the ability. Whenever he did in the regulation season, it got better in the playoffs. And if there's one thing about cream that stands out is that his incredible consistency. He never had bad games. He's never like he played the game. And he had four points and two rebounds.

And he said, oh, gee, I just didn't play well tonight. I remember we were playing in the forum late in the season. And we always played on Sunday evening. They always had the liquor space Sunday evening at home. And that morning, Jen Mary, the renowned sports writer, did an article on cream. And he compared him to the play Carmen, the opera Carmen. But whoever's playing Carmen

night in and night out. Carmen is what is called for. And Carmen is what you get. So the opera never changes. It's the same. So we're on the bench. And they're introducing the teams for the starting lineup. And cream was always introduced last. So I wind up sitting next to him. And I turned to him. And I said, hey, Cap, what's playing tonight? And he says

to me Carmen. That's a great story. And how he went and he delivered. So if there's one thing about cream, I mean, it's a great score yet. I think he's the all time leading score is a great rebounder. But you've got it every night. Yeah, that's amazing. And like I said, just so offensively gifted and did it at every level high school was the best. And

then when he got to the pros, he did it there too. And again, because today's young people didn't see him. They don't know his greatness. But you know, you talk to anyone who knows basketball over the last 50 years. And he's got to be on the list of, you know, greatest players. Ever when you made that poster. I also, I have that poster of like you

dressed up as the professor. And you've got cream and magic and norm Nixon and Jamal Wilkes. What was that shoot like that? Had to have been a fun couple of hours doing that photo shoot. Yeah, we actually did it in a hotel across the street from the forum, which there's also was across the street, the Hollywood Park, which now as you're probably aware of is all

been torn down another building a new. Football arena that'll be ready. I think next year and two years. But anyway, sports Illustrator did that. And to make things convenient for the players since the hotel was directly across the street. They went, got a couple hotel rooms and brought construction people in. And they made the classroom scene in the hotel. Wow. So that when we showed up,

you know, the desk where the teacher's desk, the down to the apple on the desk and books and blackboards, that was all brought in. And I don't know what it cost. I'm coming across in thousands of dollars to set this up. And then the players came and took that maybe 15 minutes to do that shoot. But it took them two or three days to set it

all up. Wow. Yeah, that must have been fun. And, you know, again, what a great memory for you and great time. So all right, let's jump ahead to Loyal Lamarie Mount. Again, I've heard many versions of how you wound up as the head coach at Loyal Lamarie Mount. But let's hear directly from you. Because it's from what I've heard it's a kind of a funny story.

It wasn't just like, Hey, Coach Westhead. Do you want to come coach at Loyal Lamarie Mount? It had a few twists and turns to it. Yes, you're dead. I had an interesting, I had applied to be the head coach at Loyal Lamarie Mount back in the 70s. I'd be guessing inside 77, 78, one of those years. They had an opening. The final four and the coach's

convention was in Salt Lake City. And through correspondence, I looked at the wind from Salt Lake to LA to interview. It's kind of ironic that I'm telling you this part of it, I show up in the airport, get my come out of the terminal and Jack McKinney of all people is there to pick me up. As we had talked, I told him I was coming in.

And he drives me to LMU for the interview. I do the interview. And I don't get the job. That's how I go back and I'm coaching with Sal. And then as you know, I wind up with the Lakers. The next time around, I got fired from the Lakers. I went to the Chicago Bulls coach then for a year, got fired from the Bulls. And I'm back

in LA, like 1984, whatever. And I'm out of work. And the job opens up. So I apply. I'm going to go to the Chicago Bulls coach then for a year, got fired from the Bulls. And I'm back in LA, like 1984, whatever. And I'm out of work. And the job opens up. So I apply. And I interview and don't get the job. In fact, my very

good friend Jim Lynam, St. Joe Grad, played for Jack Ramsey, etc. He gets the job. So Jim Lynam, who is my good friend, has the job. And whenever he accepts, like, just a March April May, probably early May. And Lynam is a silly guy too, right? Lynam is a St. Joe guy. Lynam and I played on the same team at St. Joseph's being coached by Jack

Ramsey, head coach and Jack McKinney assistant coach. Wow. That's how all that comes together. So Lynam's head coach. And in the meantime, I'm trying to get a job anywhere. And I get a, I get an offer back east in the Philadelphia area, your sinus college. It's a division. Two or three, it's not division one. I think it's division three. And they want me to be a

full-time English instructor. And their basketball coach. So I go and they make you offer and they say, okay, take some time. But let us know by the end of July. So this is like the end of June. They say, you know, give you a month to figure it out if you want to do this. So mid-year, I think it's a big deal. I get a call

from Jim Lynam. And he says, Paul, I just want you to know that I took a job right now with the Sixers with Maddie Gukus. Now Gukus is another St. Joe guy who played with us. And Gukus got the head job with the Sixers. And he got Lynam become the B his assistant. So Lynam's given me that. That information. So at that moment, nobody knows. You

know, other than he told LMU, told, you know, the A.D. or the president, whatever that he was leaving. So he's trying to help me because he knew that I tried to get the job months before. So I said, okay, thanks Jim. So we hang up and I call LMU when I say, you know, I, you know, I hear the job is open. And they were like,

how did you know? So I said, okay, so here's what's going on with me. I said, like, I'm really interested. I would really like to coach the Lions. But I have to make a decision in two days because July was coming to an end. So I said, I know you might think I'm, I'm not going to pressure you or husband you, but I'm not. So I

said, two days comes and goes and you don't make me an offer. I have to take this of the job. I will take this of the job. So sure enough. At the end of the second day, I go in for an interview again. And they offer me the job. So that's how all that fit in. I mean, it was, it was very chaotic at the time.

But I with Jim Lines resignation, they St. Joe's graduate, another St. Joe's graduate gets the job, meaning they. So the third time around, I got the job. That's amazing. I mean, it is, you know, you said earlier in our conversation, just kind of like how things work out sometimes. And you were the perfect coach for that team at that time. And, you know, we can, I

guess, fast forward to that, that tragic night of March 4th, 1990, when Hank collapsed and died. And I've said so many times on the show and in other places, like, I can't think of a person more graceful than you. To get the team. And really that whole community through that time that was so hard to understand and so tragic. And the team played so inspired after

that. But you know, imagine, like you said, if you had continued with the Lakers or if you hadn't, you know, gotten that job at LMU the third time around, like none of this would have happened the way that it did. So maybe sometimes things just work out for a reason. Yeah, Brian, I mean, I've had, I think I've counted, I've had 20 jobs. And some of

them just kick out. You know, more than others and the LMU time, I was there five years at that time. In many ways, it's the highlight of my career because I finally was able to get a group of players to run the system, the run the speed game to perfection. And yet, I would have given it all up. If I could have avoided that, I would

have done it. Beth of Hank Gathers on that day. So the mixture of joy and sorrow is forever blended together. So, you know, you've reflected on Magic Johnson, Dianna Trossi, Cream Abdul Jibar. Spend a couple minutes reflecting on Hank because, you know, I was up close with him too. And what an engaging person. And, you know, I think you called him a walking thunderbolt. He just,

when he walked into a room, he lit up the room unlike many other people I've been around in my life. No, you're absolutely right. When he walked in the room, he took over. It's true. Yeah, it's true. And if you remember at his memorial and when they unveiled the statue, I did give the example of after games, I'd be outside the locker room. And I was

with my daughter. And she had a crush on Jeff Friar and she was waiting to see Friar. She's like 14 years old. And Out Walks Hank and he walks over. There was this high, Julie. Who's your favorite player? And she says, you are. There was no way around that. I mean, if you didn't say you are, Hank, you probably would have spent you in half. I

don't know who knows. But he just had a few things to do. He had a way about him that just dominated wherever he was, you know, whether that was, you know, on a bus going to a game or in the locker room or certainly on the court, he dominated. And I remember some of the practices that he would, he would take over with his voice and

with his voice. With his mannerisms, one time we were running the fast break drill and the ball got passed with Jeff Friar, like three straight times and Friar shot the ball three straight times. And Hank yelled at Friar and then came over to me and said, coach, do you see what's going on? Friar shooting the ball all the time. I said, yeah, I know, Hank, I

said, but we told him to do that. You know, when they passing the ball, he shoots. He said, oh, as if he didn't know, I mean, like, he said, oh, I said, but just think about this. Every time he shoots, if he misses, you can get the rebound and score. Yeah. He said, yeah. So we run the drill a couple more times. And the ball gets

passed the Friar. And Hank's running down the middle of court. And he screams, Friar miss. His own teammate. He had to have seen it. So he realized, I don't mind you shooting the ball, Friar, but I don't want you to make it because if you miss, I get. So he meant it, but he was such a dominating guy. Like it was, it was nothing that was

going to stop him. Not even when we played LSU and Shaqille blocked his first five shots. At a time now, Hank said, get me the ball. And as we all know, at the end of that LSU game, he had 45 points and 20 some rebounds. So Hank was probably the strongest individual, physically and mentally that I've ever coached. Wow. And again, you know, you've coached Karim

and magic and Diana Tarrossi. So that's high praise coming from you. That was the thing about Hank is, you know, he was six seven. So he was a little bit undersized. But he would go up against Shaq and Stanley Roberts and Larry Johnson and some really big players who had more size on him, but he was just fearless. And you know, for those listening to this

who don't know who Hank gathers was, he led the nation and scoring and rebounding, which has only been done twice in the history of college basketball. He was a spectacular player. But coach West, when I saw him next to Bo Kimball, I always thought Bo was the most gifted player. But Hank wasn't going to let anyone beat him and anything. Correct. Well, you have, there's no

doubt. Hank had much more basketball talent than Hank. I mean, I bowed it. Bo had much more talent than Hank. And when you said, I praised him and I put him up with magic and Karim and Diana Tarrossi. I didn't say that he had the talent that they had. Right. Or the basketball. I said, he was the toughest, strongest player. I mean, Hank, people projected to

say, well, what would Hank have been if he played in the NBA? I said, well, Hank would never have been a star. But he had been a 10 year veteran who got you 12 points and seven rebounds every game. Right. Every game. Yeah. And just to show you some of his weaknesses during his junior year. He wasn't invited to a Olympic trials in Colorado Springs. And

they brought in maybe 30, 40 or more players from across the country. So he went for three days. And like a lot of other coaches, I flew in just to see him and say, I'm here for you. How are things going? And you know, a lot of coaches did that. So I fly in on day two. And I'm, I find it. I'm going to get to

the gymnasium. I'm walking up the steps and there's a little lobby area. I walk into the lobby and all the doors are closed. And out walks three or four young ladies, some college age girls who were there for like volleyball or something. They were in their uniform and they're laughing and giggling. And the one says to the other as they get close to them and the

door. They say, did you see that shot? I can't believe it. And they walk by me. I opened the door and who's right in front of me? But thanks God. They were laughing at his shot. You know, like how different it was than these other 40 players who are the best in the world. Yeah. And Hank did not make the team that year. And he came

back determined that he was going to prove how good he was. So he, you know, I'm going to say, I'm going to get to the top of the team. You wouldn't want to challenge Hank Gathers. He was going to meet that challenge. Yeah. And that whole team was so special. I mean, you know, you said that LMU team was kind of the peak of the powers

of the system. It was such a hodgepodge. You know, you had Hank and Bo from Philly. You had Jeff Friar, the surfer from Orange County, Tom Peabody, Perstimer from Sweden. Tony Walker was a JC transfer to Raul Lowry. Great basketball player. Raul Lowry was a better baseball player. Got drafted to play pro baseball. It was just such a collection of guys that if you just, you

know, saw him walking on campus, you would have never put him together. But together on the basketball court, they were a symphony that made great music. It is no question about that, Brian. They blended it together. They, and unusual, even from from my team. So they accepted and built up the team. They believed in the system, in the speed game. So they marveled how they could

outrun teams, how they could break teams down, how they could tire them. They knew before the game started. That somewhere between the opening tip and 40 minutes later, they were going to be playing against a broken team. And they enjoyed that. It was like something to be hold. And they relished in it. And they all did their individual tests. I mean, nobody got a fast break.

And we got the ball out quick. Nobody got a fast break. And that's Tony Walker and Raul Lowry. Race that ball down at break next speed. And certainly nobody won the game if when we shot and missed, you're a come saying, gatherers and and company down the lane to get a second shot and score. What happened in the Alabama game? That was the only time I

ever saw a team successfully with you as the coach. Slow down. Loyal. I think it was 62, 60 was the final score. And they just basically went four corners for for most of the game. That was the only time where I saw a team discipline enough not to kind of fall in the game. And then I went into the trap of trying to outrun the Lions.

Yeah, well, their coach, Winf Sanderson, unlike Steve Fisher told me a week before, instead of we play you in the next round, I'm telling you right now, we're not going to run. I will have my team hold the ball. So he was held in a running game. So we would press, they would get an advantage, let's say a three on two and they would pull it

out and set up their offense. So we had a difficult time. Because usually when we press and we give you an advantage, most teams score or try and score like Michigan did. And they were very good at it. So he kind of defied our principle. Defending it away to make you shoot early. He refused to do that. And therefore we're in a back and forth game

in the 60s. I don't know if you remember. I just ran into him a couple of weeks ago here in LA. But we were up and Alabama had one more shot. They had one more possession. And I think that's what I'm saying. And I don't know if you remember. Do you remember who took the last shot for Alabama? Robert Orey. Robert Orey. Yeah. Brian, you're on

your game. Well, you know, big game. Robert didn't make that shot. Right. Thank God. Thank God. Yeah. And I saw him a couple weeks ago. He was at Loyola High School. His son was playing against my grandson in football. And we were reflecting on that. And he said, yeah, well, it's one of the few that I missed. Exactly. No, I remember that well. Because after that,

I don't think he missed many at all. But yeah, they had a very talented team. And frankly, they were very athletic too. So they could have been baited into running with Loyola. But, you know, if their coach was, you know, hell bent on saying, all right, we're taking the air out of the ball. Then they listened to their coach. And, you know, they came pretty close.

I said to this day, coach, the only team that could have beaten you guys that year was the team that did. That was UNLV. They were really, really talented. I mean, would they have four first round picks and they're starting lineup. And I mean, just incredible. But, you know, I think all of us have wondered if Hank had been in the lineup that day, maybe things

would have been differently. We had a little glimpse of that. It was interesting. The 1990 season book ended with UNLV and UNLV. So the first game at Thomas and Mac, when you guys are running them off, not just in the court and a bomb threat gets called in, they slow down the game and then, you know, UNLV comes and wins the game. But I thought, you

know, 1990 that could have been the year of Loyola. If UNLV had lost to Ball State, remember Ball State, almost beat them in the round before. Yeah. And our players we played before that game. Our players are watching the end of that game, hoping that, uh, Ball State loses. Right. They said we want to play UNLV. Interest. We want Ball State to lose. Well, but I

can change. I think we'd better off playing Ball State. Yeah. Well, I mean, again, Larry Johnson, Stacy Augman, uh, Greg Anthony Anderson Hunt. I mean, they had some really good players, Gary Tarcanian obviously coached that team. But, uh, that was a special season. Did you say Stacy Augman? Stacy Augman, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I coached Stacy later, uh, in my career, uh, in Orlando. So it

turned out to be a good guy. But I didn't like him. Now that was, it was a magical season. Uh, you know, again, you, you would trade it all to have Hank back. But, uh, so then you leave. Oh, wait. All right. Before we, we have you leaving to go to Denver. I got to ask you, you're, and this would be like unheard of today. While

you're coaching Loyal Emory Mount, you're also teaching Shakespeare at Loyal Emory Mount. Well, I wasn't teaching Shakespeare, but I, I did, I, I, I taught a writing class. And in fact, I, uh, I taught a writing class, uh, to the sociology majors. I, I, they actually were up, up, up or level, uh, juniors and seniors in this class. And I was teaching them writing skills. Uh,

I, I, I could barely spell sociology. So I didn't teach them anything about their expertise. But, uh, I was sent in by the sociology, sociology department to kind of, you know, give them a format, give them a way of writing papers and, and delivering, uh, ideas. So, uh, yeah, I wasn't, I taught there for a couple of years and, and during that season. You're listening to

sports business radio. We'll be right back after this. Underdog fantasy is the easiest place to play fantasy sport. It's also the fastest growing fantasy app in the industry. Your fantasy leagues might be over. You can still play fantasy sports games on underdog fantasy. I love playing pick them and rivals with pick them. You can pick whether your favorite players will have a higher or lower stat

total in this week's game for a chance to win big. So you can probably play a couple of games, one of those games that are not in good shape when it comes to classic doing what you just, you see, blood pressure weighted in the top right, you can, you know, all sorts of things. And you should teach them many other new things that, you know, are

tough throws. But that beat that headball style, uh, assabes, your big fantasy sports expand into your professional villain,izes, and the state where underdog fantasy operates terms apply concerned with your play, call 1-800-522-4700, or visit www.ncpgambling.org. Now back to sports business radio with Brian Berger. It was so cool because, you know, first of all, the team was doing so well and if you're in a coach Westhead

class, that's cool in and of itself. But it also says about your diverse background and that you're so much more than just a basketball coach and that you've had an interesting Shakespeare and that you've been a scholar and I just thought that was a really neat part of what makes you unique. So now LMU loses in the grade 8 and the Denver Nuggets come calling. And

to me, that's one of those crossroads again. It's, I totally get why you want to go to the NBA and run the system. But I also think, and I go, you, you know, maybe Loyal and Marymount could have been Gonzaga before Gonzaga was Gonzaga. Like you could have stayed at LMU maybe for 20, 25 years and built it into what Mark Few has built Gonzaga into.

And, you know, it's one of those great what ifs. But what was your reasoning other than just the allure of the NBA? I'm sure it was more money and going to Denver. Yeah. Brian, it was a very difficult decision. Uh, I think that's a great idea. Uh, and before I make that jump to Denver, I did, I did get a call from Dale Brown from LSU.

And he said to me, he said, coach, if you stay in the college game and specifically, I guess he meant LMU. We said, if you stay, he said, you're about to change the way basketball is going to be played throughout the game. You said, it, it'll change. Well, the lure of one more shot at a head position in the NBA was just, you know, driving me

to Denver. I said, I, I've been in the NBA before. I got fired from the Lakers. I got fired from the bulls. This is not going to come around in another year or two and say, hey, why don't you coach our team? So Denver needed me and I needed Denver. So I ultimately made that decision to try the NBA one more time. Well, by the way,

Hank and Path, Bo is graduating. Jeff Friar was graduating. I mean, you were losing a good portion of that team. So in a lot of ways at Loyal Lamarima, you would have been rebuilding. Yeah, yeah, the Behonest O'Brien. Yeah, I wasn't a clever. I wasn't a calculate. Now I really didn't, you know, analyze like, well, we're not going to be as good as we were. I

mean, I guess I was blatantly obvious. But, I mean, I knew what I was giving up. I knew that I had convinced my team to play this way, the speed game. And I knew from my past experience, I was going to be a good player. That is not easy to come by. I mean, they were going to play that way without though. It didn't matter. That

it was ingrained in the way they thought basketball was to be performed. So I knew I had that. And it's not that wasn't easy to give up. But the lure of trying to show that I can coach in the NBA just was a little stronger. Yeah. And again, it's not easy. It makes sense. So now you get to Denver and you had a decent collection of

players on that team. Didn't Chris Jackson, who later became mock mood Abdul Rhoof. Was he on that team? Yes, he was. He was a rookie. Okay. And then De Kimbe was he there yet? De Kimbe came my second year. Okay. So I mean, you have two decent cornerstone players, but would always struck me from afar. And certainly I wasn't in it. It seemed like getting and

NBA players to play fast for 82 games was a challenge. Would that be a correct observation? You're absolutely right. But I'll even expanded more. Getting any team to play fast for 40 minutes. And 30 game season or an 82 game season is really stretching. And upon reflection. Now, I'm going to be a good player. I'm not going to be a good player. I'm going to be

a good player. I'm going to be a good player. They were very seasoned veterans. They really wanted to do it. But physically when you're 35 going, you know, and your body is beginning to break down, it's really hard. I mean, just to give you a Davis example, we got him on the trade. And the first day he came in, he said, the I coach, I'm Walter

Davis. He was a what a gentleman. He wasn't. I said, yeah, Walter, he's a well coach. I'm either going to be able to get out there and practice all the time with you. And I see how fast you plan, or I'm going to be able to play the games. He said, but I can't do. I can't practice. Right. He said, my body, my legs are just

going to break down. So I said, okay, Walter, I needed decision. You're going to stand next to me. All right. So, I mean, we had that dilemma. We just had players who many of them willing, but their bodies were just too broken down to do it. And although, you know, it's kind of interesting. If the experiment didn't work. And, you know, ultimately I get fired. But

even in that first year, we average like one 19.8. Let's just round those like 120 points a game. I know. I don't think anyone has done that since in the NBA average of 120 points a game. Yeah. So it didn't work. You know, and work in the NBA as in most, you know, sports teams work means did you win more than you lost? Did you win

some kind of championship or first place? And we did not. So, you know, I mean, I don't know. The system couldn't sustain itself. Well, but Kudos to you for trying it, right? Because when it did work, it was amazing to watch. And, you know, you, you believed in, in what you were doing. And yes, but you're right. Like, I look to when you went to the

women's game. So you went to the Phoenix Mercury. And look, if you're just measuring it by wins and losses, you want to title with the Mercury in 2007 and, and Diana Tross. He was part of that. He was part of that team. He tried it at Oregon. It didn't work there. So it is really about the buy-in of the players. And if they don't commit to

that full time, then I guess it doesn't work. Yeah. I mean, I'm reflecting as something that is very hard. And you have to recognize that going in. That's why I would say I wouldn't give the blueprints of what I do to a young aspiring coach. And say, hey, this will get you a great career. You probably will get you in another business in about two years.

But, but I will say this. And when you bring up the Phoenix Mercury, there's another example like LMU of a team that once I gave them the system. And, and incidentally, when I flew in there to accept the job and they had a press conference, Diana Tross. Tross met me at the airport. Wow. And came to the press conference with me. Now, that's the only time

I've got a job. And one of the players met me. That's amazing. Yeah. So, and she said to me on this ride and she said coach, treat us like the guys. So whatever you did with your teams to make them fast and play hard. Do everything the same to us. So I said, okay. So this team, the Phoenix Mercury, they bought in. They were a group

of professional women who said, this is what you want. This is what we're going to do. And, and of course, Tross lead the way. But, so it can happen. And I guess the beauty of the system is it doesn't happen every year and every team. It happens. It can happen. Occasionally. And it certainly happened with the Mercury and the Anna Tross and it certainly happened with

LMU with Hank and Bo. When you look at the women's game now, I mean, for a long time, it was you con and everyone else. Now, you know, teams like Oregon, South Carolina, Notre Dame. I see a lot of expansion in the women's game. And I interviewed Kathy Engelberg, the new president and commissioner of the WNN. And I was a great player in the NBA a

few months ago in Chicago. And I just really see a lot of progression in the college and pro women's game. Are you paying any attention to that? Yeah, I follow the women's game. I, you know, after coaching the Mercury and coaching the the Oregon women for five years. I like the women's game. I pay attention to it. And I would agree with you that this is

the way to get the best of the world. The beginning to spread out is beginning to grow a dozen years ago when I was in the thick of my Oregon experience with the with the women's team. There was only a handful of very, very talented players coming out of high school. Handful, maybe six, the 10 a year. And the reason one of the reasons why you

con dominated is a lot of the women's game. And I love the 10 great high school players that get four or five of them every year. So hello. No wonder they could win over and over again because there weren't enough teams that had that level of player. Well, now that has changed. I mean, Gina does a great job there. And he's still doing a great job.

And he still gets very good players. But others are getting them now as you indicated South Carolina. And then the game certainly, Oregon. So the game has improved on the women's side. Did you have a chance to watch any of Sabrina's games this year? Yeah, I did. I mean, I saw a handful of them. She, she's just one of those special players. And it's interesting. She's

probably more like magic and Diana Terossi in that she might not have been the perfect. She's a fast-break player for me because she's so good at so many things. I mean, she goes fast when she, when she sees the need. And she slows down when she sees the need. Well, see Tony Walker or Kelly Miller, my Phoenix point guard, they would never do that. They'd go

fast every time. Interesting. But so Sabrina is in that, you know, what you want to call specialty category of the magic and the Terossi's. Yeah. When you were at Oregon, Chip Kelly's playing up tempo with the football team. Did you guys ever get together and compare notes? We did. In fact, yeah. I take a lot of pride in that. During my second year, which was, we,

we started together. Chip became the new head coach. He wasn't a system. The new head coach, the year I arrived. So we kind of went through year one, two, three together. After his second year, he invited me in August to come in and speak about my fast-break and how I do it. Good in the bed of it to his team. So I'm in an auditorium with,

you know, 95 players. And I give them my, you know, my pitch. Many of the things made me, we've already talked about. And he, in his own way, took some of my stuff. And I gave them my ideas and expanded them into this football world. And there was nothing better than Chip Kelly, Oregon team, during those years. I mean, it was a site to behold. It

was spectacular. They played so quick, so fast, so efficient. They, they were just break teams down. You see them struggling to, to perform. And as you probably remember, I think, I think it was a great thing. I remember that was the start of teams having players fake injuries just to stop the clock. Anything to get out of that speed game, but they Kelly became an expert

at it. Yeah, I mean, that Oregon football team reminded me a lot of your loyal, and very about basketball team, just kind of the peak of the power of playing fast. Yeah, I agree. And, and, you know, chips now, would you say, I'm a L.A. And then, you know, I, I've stayed in touch with him. And, and I follow them as best I can. And, and

maybe what he's finding in his own world. And he did a lot of things different than me, but maybe what he's finding is that his system, like my fast break, is an automatic that you get teams that you get the right players and they buy in. And then you have teams that you don't know. You have the right players and maybe all of them don't buy

in and you don't win. Yeah. That's, I mean, like you said, that's the hard thing about your system. A lot of it is based on effort, right? And, and commitment and willingness to buy in. And if you don't, then probably doesn't work. No. And then there's a player's only meeting. And they say, we had enough of this guy. Yeah. Well, that's interesting that you guys still

stay in touch. All right. So you have a new book coming out, Speed of the game. It's out in November. What made you want to write a book? Well, I've been kicking to somewhere out for years, Brian. I, I did some writing way back in the mid 80s after I left the lake where something had a little free time in between jobs. And then I picked

it back up. And the year 2000 to 2002 when I was coaching in Japan, I coach Panasonic for two years in Japan. So I just had a lot of free time. My wife and I were the only people who spoke English in this small town and that we were outside of Osaka, Japan. And then about three years ago, I picked it back up again. Because I

was, I was, I was in Japan. Free and not coaching. So put it all together. And finally, completed it. And I found a publisher, the university in the breast, a press that willingly did it for me. So it's going to be a reality. It's going to come out November. Well, congratulations. That's fine. Yeah. I mean, you've had such an amazing life and experiences. When you look

back, I mean, now you're going to have written a book. You, you shared with us during this conversation, you know, many of the highlights of your career. When it's all said and done, what's the legacy that you want to leave or how do you want to be remembered or do you even care? Like I asked that question to people all the time. And some of them

are like, well, I don't care how people remember me. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to sound glibbous. It's like I remember Charles Barclay many years ago. He said something. That people thought was a little bit off and they said, hey, Charles, you know, you're a role model. He said, no, no, I'm not a role model. I never has to become a role model. But Charles

is a role model. And Charles does a great job in his commentary. But I don't think he wants to be thrust upon him. So I'm not really trying to do anything for a legacy. I'm more hopeful that, you know, the style of play that I found doesn't get lost. And a lot of the people that I interacted with over the years, from high school through college

through professional ranks, you know, some of my comments, you know, will be remembered. And it's interesting. If you talk about legacy of all the teams that I've coached, and no one has ever invited me back officially, although LMU has done it, you know, just recently with the Hank Gathers. But I mean, players inviting you back, not the institution. The only group of players that invited me

back over the 50 years of coaching was my high school team back at Shelton, M. High and the Philadelphia area. They invited back, hey, coach, you like to come back? We're going to meet at Chuck. This is Chuck Checkman's house. We're going to meet at his house. So I go back and it's about eight to 10 players. So I coached 40 plus years ago. And we

have beer and hogeys and cheese steaks. And they sit around, they tell stories about me. And I'm looking at them like, this wasn't me. But they actually like I was the hardest, toughest, meanest guy they ever experienced. I said, no, that's not me. They said, oh, yes, it was. But the pride that I had that night that they thought enough to bring me back. So just

sit around and talk. That's the kind of legacy you'd like to have. Yeah, absolutely. And I know, you know, there's been a few get together with that low alumni team and that you've gotten together with them. Players only and, you know, you and a few of the coaches. And I say this all the time, I've been around dream team one. I used to work for the

blazers. I've been around a lot of teams. I don't know that I've ever seen a team bond closer and stronger than that low alumni team. It was just unlike anything I've ever seen in my career. I agree, Brian. Yeah, I mean, the Cheltenham high team because of my major starting out. The Lakers and the Mercury because of winning the championship. But if I had a pick

up, I would have been a great player. And I would have been a great player of the Lakers and the Lakers and the U.S. team. The LMU team in many ways was the highlight of my coaching because we blend together and nothing was going to stop us. Not even a bomb scare. Yeah, well coach, that is 90 minutes of gold that you just gave me. And,

you know, I have always looked at you and held you in the highest of a steam. You know, you were born and you were born. And my coach, when I was in college and a part of that team and you always made me in Keith Foreman who says, hello, by the way, feel so special. And a part of that team, we were on the plane trips

with you and the bus rides with you. And, you know, we didn't play. But we were around you guys and you made us feel, you know, part of the team. And like I said earlier, there was tragedy that year with with hangs passing. And there's not anyone I can think of who would have handled it more gracefully than you. So just such respect for you and

all your achievements and hey, I invite you to anything anytime you want. I would love to, you know, have more conversations with you. And I'm glad that this conversation is going to live on forever. So I did one of these with David Stern in 2016. And he was a good friend of mine. And, you know, I think it's great that people can really get to know

who you were and about your career. But I will also invite people to watch the Guru of Go. Yes, Pianthus. He's was a very successful athlete but since he was 30 for 30 documentary. So kids, even where we've got 30 for 30 documentary. And of course when Coach, West nic Bible and David Stern may recall that were in the past video I recorded 90 New from

The Speckle, you know, 30 third aha for three three day documentary and of course when Coach West his new book speed of the game comes out in November Go get that as well. Coach West Head stay safe during this pandemic. And thank you so much. I wish we could have done this in person but this was fantastic. And, I'm excited. 5G is here. Is your stadium

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Well that's it for this edition of sports business radio. Thanks for tuning in. Thanks to our team at sports business radio. Ryan Griggs, Josh Blank, Ryan Knocker, Magima and our friends at CG Sports who power sports business radio. CG Young, Matt Amarlin, Nicole Wardle and Calvin Wurz. I'm Brian Burger. Have a great week and we'll talk to you soon right here on sports business radio. SportsBusinessRadio.com

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