John Ourand, Sports Business Journal Sports Media

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hello to Cliff Kidd Z-Bar Energy snack bars. With a mouth-watering soft-baked texture and kid-favorite flavors like chocolate chip and iced oatmeal cookie, these organic whole grain bars have the taste kids love. Visit CliffKidd.com to learn more. That's C-L-I-F-Kidd.com. Mark Cuban. How you do anything is how you do everything. If you're not-you don't pay attention to detail on the little things, you're not going to be an

avid, a paying attention to detail for the big things. I see everybody. John Smolts. If you don't have the imagination and the willingness to fail or not being afraid to fail, I don't think you can be truly great. Candice Parker. I have so much hope for this generation coming up that I've grown up with women in sports, in leadership roles, on television, speaking about sports, speaking

knowledgeably about sports. To me, all the work that I've done, all the humanitarian work that I've done, has always given me great perspective. It's allowed me to keep my feet on the ground and has really put and reminded me what's truly important. Damien Miller. That was for Seattle. Just to name a few. Welcome to Sports Business Radio. Now, here's Brian Burger. Thanks for joining us on

this edition of Sports Business Radio. Hope you're doing well. John Oran, our old friend from the Sports Business Journal. He's the media reporter there. He's also the co-host of the terrific Marchand and Oran Sports Media podcast. He's going to join us on the show this week so much going on in the world of sports media. What is the future of the NBA media rights? The future

of Apple with streaming? The Pac-12 deal. So many things going on and we'll cover all of that with John Oran on our show today. I'm joined by executive producer Brian Griggs. Great. Before we get to that, how about some headlamps? Let's do it. By the way, John is great because I geek out on his, all the TV rights deals and the stats and everything behind all

the money involved with it is fascinating to me. So I always love listening to John. Yeah, it's like he sees the future. Yeah. And he kind of knows like who the main players are involved for the potential media rights deals. And he brings up such a good point. Like the NFL did their right steel a few years ago. It's locked up for 11 years. Like so

many of the media rights deals are locked up. The NBA is really the only thing this decade that is coming on the market. So it is going to be a bidding rights war. But we'll go into that when we talk to John. All right. Lock the headlines this week, actually. So first, NCAA March Madness, Grig, the women outshadowed the man. I thought their tournament from top

to bottom was better. If you look at the final four, most amount of viewers ever, 357,542 fans at the final four for the women in Dallas. The most they've ever had for the final four, the championship game with LSU and Iowa, Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark, 9.9 million people, gathers all kinds of records for sporting events. And you know, that's a bigger number than a lot

of the men's sporting events got. So the talk of the town after this edition of March Madness is definitely the women. Oh, I agree. I think the tournament was so fun to watch from top to bottom. Great competition. I mean, it was just it was just battle out there after battle after battle. I mean, we saw some amazing shooting. The double 40 point games. I mean,

just all around great competition, fun to watch. I thought the tournament looked great. ESPN did a good job on coverage as they usually do. So yeah, I was tuned in every game. I really liked the bird. Tarrasi alternate broadcast, much like the Manning cast. I loved when Bird and Tarrasi had their coach, Gino Oriama from Yukon on, you know, the head Chris Paul on the head,

jerk, Navit, Pia and Paugas all on Simone Augustus. They had some really great guests. So I enjoyed that as well. But I know, 102 points for LSU in the championship game also a record scoring output for the women's tournament. So exciting, Baskin, well, 102 points at 40 minutes is no joke. To me, the best college basketball game I saw all year wasn't that championship game. It

was the semifinal game between South Carolina and Iowa. That was a classic matchup, South Carolina came in undefeated, Keylin Clark had four point, just all kinds of drama back and forth game. Great, great basketball game close throughout. Yeah, and I think you me early before the tournament both thought South Carolina was going to run the table and take the whole thing. I said that and we

both gotten barest on that because man, Iowa showed up and then LSU was just phenomenal. And man, their scoring was un, I mean, the shooting with LSU, I've never seen so many made shots in a row. They just come down and just bucket after bucket after bucket. It was so fun watching them just drain everything. It was, it was just a fun tournament all the way

around. All right, on the men's side, you can't end up taking it. They beat San Diego State, which is a surprise to many of the San Diego State got into the championship game. Good tournament for the men, but just didn't have the compelling drama of the women to me. And frankly, you know, if you ask me at the end of the tournament, name five women's players

and then name five men players. I could much more easily name them. Five women's players who captured my attention during the tournament than I could five men's players. When's the last time you said that? Great. Yeah, that's very true. And I think, I think you're right. I think the men's tournament didn't really have that stand out. You know, Michael Jordan type player that everybody was watching.

It was kind of just, you know, group effort from everybody. I mean, San Diego State, the reason they made it was because their bench was so good. I mean, they were scoring out, outscoring the starters for the teams they were playing. And in that championship game, they just couldn't show up. They couldn't make any, any shots, but Yukon, I think they won every game by 15

20 points. They were kind of the favorite going through. So not surprising that they kind of blew away San Diego State, but kind of wish it was more, you know, you want those close games, especially the final game, but I watched I was often on with the women's and the men's, but I agree, not that stand out a big show from a men's team. And so

long to Jim Nance, that was his last final four, I and Eagle will be taking over for him going forward with March badness. Driggs, this would normally be our number one headline, but it was number two this week. The NBA and it's players union have reached an agreement on a new collective bargaining agreement. There's going to be labor peace in the NBA through the remainder of

this decade. It's a seven year deal. A lot of highlights and we'll break this down on a future show because there's a lot to break down. But here are a few of the highlights. So first in an attempt to curb load management, which has been a problem for the NBA with many of their stars. You've got to play 65 games in order to qualify for all

NBA teams. And MVP going forward. So that's interesting. I don't know that that's really going to. Term anyone from sitting out or load managing, but they did put it in there. This is a headline. There's going to be an in season tournament that could arrive as soon as the 23 24 NBA season. The event will include pool play games baked into the regular season schedule, starting

in November with eight teams advancing to a single elimination tournament. In December, the final four will be held at a neutral site with laws Vegas, prominent in the discussion according to sources. So the in season tournament, you'll hear us talk to John or end about that. That's a new piece of inventory for the NBA. You can bet your bottom dollar that they're going to sell that

to someone either bake it into an existing agreement with ESPN and Disney or with TNT and. Where brothers discovery. Every or maybe there's a streaming platform or someone else who emerges to broadcast that tournament. All right, the NBA and it players association agreed to still continue this one and done. So there's not going to be high school players allowed to come in. You can go to

the G league still and, you know, go play overseas, but that is not going to change. This is a really interesting one. So the leagues do. Cluck to bargaining agreement is going to give players the ability to invest in NBA and WNBA teams as well as promote. And or invest in sports betting and cannabis companies. So a little bit of that has been going on. I

mean, gosh, great. Five years ago, like you would be banned for life. Like heat rose. If you were investing in sports betting companies are having anything to do with them. Now you're allowed to do that. Cannabis has been removed as well. So that's one of the drugs that is drug tested from the NBA. So that's now, you know, that's long been discussed for arrest and recovery

and, you know, again, five, 10 years ago, that would get you in a lot of trouble. So that has changed. And then I guess the other highlight of this new agreement is for the first time since the inception of the modern CBA in 1983. The team and league licensing revenue estimated be worth a hundred. $160 million for the upcoming 2023, 2024 season will be added into

the shared pool of BRI. That's basketball related income owners and players split the BRI money and the licensing revenue is expected to grow annually with the salary cap in and soon years. The owners always had that tilting in their direction. And now that it's going to be split. That's worth a lot more money to the players. So, you know, I look at the game and I

see where bullsides came out like the in season tournament. I bet players aren't super excited about that. The owners get that it's another huge piece to go to the media right steel with. But like for the players. Cannabis, you can invest in the NBA and WNBA. You can partner with sports betting companies like there are some real wins for the players here. I actually think at

the win that you only have to play 65 games to qualify for the postseason awards because I don't think it's that many. They had said like 72 games. You can only miss 10 games. But Greg's overall, what do you think of this new agreement? Yeah, I think credit to the NBA because we talk about a lot of times about, you know, some organizations keep the same

thing going for 50 years, never changing anything. Right. I like how the NBA is adapting to the current times with the cannabis with the betting and all that stuff. And, you know, you got to grow. You got to move into these new avenues of how the world's changing. So I think that's a credit to the NBA. The in season tournament is intriguing to me. That's going

to be interesting. See how they market that, how they play it, how the players feel about that. So I'm interested on that. I think the load management thing they're trying to do is maybe even more for the fans, because everybody's just been really ripping the NBA lately on. Right. Players not showing up. So I think that might be something to try and get the fans a

little bit off. Like, okay, they're finally doing something for the load management. But yeah, overall, hey, they got it done. There's not going to be a strike. We like hearing that. So bring on the NBA. Let's see what happens. Well, look, we're sports visited show. So we'd be. Stupid not to point out like the NBA athletes are really good athletes, CEOs for the most part, right?

So some of these things are really encouraging them to be athletes. CEOs even more like the ability to invest in NBA and WNB 18s or cannabis companies are sports betting companies. Like it's actually going to generate even more activity there. You would think from players investing their money back into some of these companies. So I think that's exciting. So keep in mind the record sales price

for a North American sports team 4.65 billion in 2022, the Denver Broncos. So this would shatter that price at $6 billion and there's two bids for Dan Snyder to consider one is from Canadian billionaire Steve. He has submitted a fully funded $6 billion offer. He, like I said, Canadian billionaire. The other group is Josh Harris, Mitchell Rails, and they've pulled magic Jonathan into their group. So

you've got these two groups. And it's going to be up to Dan Snyder to consider. You know, he asked for the $6 billion. He said, that's what you need to get to both groups got to that. You know, the NFL owners will have to vote on whoever Dan Snyder. Fix as the $6 billion bid. But you would think that Dan Snyder's days as owner of the

commanders are going to be coming to an end quickly, which if you're the NFL, that's a very, very good thing. Cause this guy is toxic and has lots of controversy around. Yeah. Agree. And Washington is such an iconic brand and an iconic team to its great market, great team, great history. So it's going to be good to move on to a new ownership. I mean, it's

hard to bet against a match Johnson. You know, he's obviously been in the business before with the Dodgers and other teams. So that's a good group. But six billion, I mean, as we say, NFL continues to rise and prices and here we go. I mean, every single time you talk about a team sale, it goes up, even like you mentioned, the Broncos wasn't that long ago.

And all of a sudden, we're already past that number big time. So it's just continues to be the king of cash. Yeah. It is really amazing to see how these real estate prices, so to speak, go up on these teams, especially the NFL teams. All right. Next headline, Golden State Warrior star, Steph Curry has signed a new long term extension with underarmor that will extend beyond

his playing days and into his retirement. Exact terms will not disclose, but the new agreement could be one of the richest ever endorsement deals and sports once annual base pay, stock equity, Royal T's on signature products, and on court and cent of bonuses are tallyed. And so that's the umbrella of underarmor. And Tom Brady, I know, is an underarmor guy, but like, Steph Curry is really

the only guy I can think of other than Michael Jordan, who has this kind of business with the sports and parol company. Well, I mean, when you think underarmor, you think Steph Curry, I mean, he is the face of underarmor. I mean, I don't think anybody even really knew much about underarmor until Steph came on the scene because he really put it on the map. Obviously

sells a ton of shoes. And he does great marketing with them. They're a great team. And it'll be fun to see what they do with this long term deal. But yeah, I think you're right. I think it's the closest thing to a Jordan brand. I think you're going to see Steph Curry shoes long after Steph is playing ball because he's just that kind of a player

and he's iconic. And yeah, he's synonymous with underarmor. Now he's the guy. Well, he's done so many things outside of basketball court, right? Like he's doing this golf tour. Like he has so many other things going on. I mean, you look at some of like Caitlin Clark, to be honest with you. Like, the influence by Steph Curry. Like so everyone talks about how Steph Curry has

influenced the men game. Look at the women's game. I mean, again, the 102 points in the final Caitlin Clark for Iowa. Like there's imprints of Steph Curry throughout. So I think it's good that he's doing this lifetime extension because he is going to impact people for a very, very long time. All right. The last headline. And this is a huge one too. We've had Stephanie McMan.

On this show will her dad Vince McMahon just agreed to a $9.3 billion sale of WWE to endeavor. In endeavor also owned ultimate fighting championship that the UFC. Now you've got this combined entity of 21.4 billion dollars. It's going to be a new publicly traded company. They've got all kinds of branding and media rights and live event potential WrestleMania. Just took place last week and 80,000

people at Sofie Stadium in Los Angeles home with Rams and the Chargers. So this is an enormous deal. It actually is a huge deal. I think makes the most sense for WWE to sell to endeavor because you can combine WWE and UFC. There's a lot of synergy there. So, you know, Vince McMahon had kind of looked for the right buyer. And it seems like he found

the right buyer. He's not going to be as involved at least. So they say going forward, it's really going to be endeavor and gain a white from UFC. We'll kind of be running things. But Greg's an interesting deal. Nick Khan is going to be the president at WWE going forward. Or a manual. If you watch the show on Tarrad, or a on the show like this

is the real life. Or a manual. Who's the endeavor CEO. So I wonder where E and Vince and Turtle are and drama in all of this. But this is a huge, huge deal for sports business. Yeah, you know, I think WWE and wrestling kind of as a whole is the sleeping giant. I think they are getting crowds. They're getting viewership. They're getting TV deals. I think

it's a growing sport. Dana White's obviously an iconic, you know, everybody knows who he is. He's always out and about. He's the face of UFC. So I think that marriage of them being under the same canopy is great because they keep growing. I mean, they're making money. Like you say, 80,000 for a live event. They do a really good live events. People come to those things.

They sell a lot of tickets. There's a lot of merch. And I think they're going to continue to grow and make more money. So I like this deal a lot. All right. The last thing I want to say. I just want to weigh in in this Lamar Jackson story. It's ridiculous. I mean, this is a generational quarterback. He's definitely one of the top five to eight

quarterbacks in the NFL. The NFL draft is coming up in just a few weeks. Supposedly, according to his own Twitter, he requested a trade from the Ravens back on March 2nd. And typically, if a quarterback of this, it came on the market, there would be like a feeding frenzy to sign him and to give him money. And oh my God, we have a chance to get

a generational quarterback. Like, let's go out. Get Lamar Jackson. It costs us two first round picks. And a player like who cares? This guy is a difference maker. I think he's 45 and 16. It is a starter. Like not many players have that kind of a record as a starter. But Griggs, it's, it's crickets. And people are trying to understand like why in the world wouldn't

there be a feeding frenzy here to acquire Lamar Jackson? Well, let me tell you why. And there's the C word that's been used out there. And it's, it's collusion. The owners don't want to set the president of guaranteed contracts. Jimmy Haslin, the owner of the Browns already did this with DeShon Watson. And everyone's like, oh, that's an anomaly. You know, that was a silly deal. They

had to overpay to get DeShon Watson, even though he's going through, you know, many off the field things. But the owners are basically decided. I'm not going to be the first guy to go give Lamar Jackson. And the full guaranteed contract is then you've got to give the full guaranteed contract to Joe Burrow and to Justin Herbert and to Jalen Hertz and to all the quarterbacks

that are waiting for their turn for a new contract. And none of those team owners want to have to give the fully guaranteed contract. And they want to be able to say, well, look, your contract is comparable to Lamar Jackson. Well, guess what? If Lamar Jackson has a fully guaranteed contract like DeShon Watson, then you're going to have to give him a guarantee contract. Because Lamar

Jackson has a better resume and he's got a better resume than DeShon Watson. But the Ravens are holding firm, and it seems like the owners who wink, wink, by the way, just had the owners meeting in Arizona, got into a room and said, no one at this table better gift Lamar Jackson a guaranteed contract. Because if you do, then I'm going to have to give the

same deal to my quarterback. That's what's going on here. If DeShon Watson, had never gotten a fully guaranteed contract, I think Lamar Jackson would either have a deal with the Ravens or he'd be on another team already, because they would have been able to say, okay, we're going to acquire you and give the guaranteed contract. Now, I will say this, if there's any owner in the

NFL, who's going to say, grow all the other owners, I'm giving him a fully guaranteed contract because we want him on our football team. Probably Jim Urse and the Indianapolis Colt. And by the way, they need a quarterback. By the way, they have the number four pick in the draft that they could send back to the Ravens who could draft a young quarterback or draft someone

else. But this is absolutely ridiculous that someone of Lamar Jackson's caliber is on the market. He doesn't have the off the field issues. And he's still trying to find a team. So I hope someone gets smart and says, look, I don't care what other owners think. This is what's best for my football team and what's best for my football team is to have a 26 year

old MVP who's 45 and 16 as a star. Who's one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL? Who's going to, I mean, he's like Michael Vic. He's going to sell tons of tickets and merchandise. He's electric on the football field. You can pencil your team into the playoffs, especially if you're in the NFC because all the good quarterbacks are in the AFC. Now, my home, Josh

Allen, Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow. You know, there's not as many in the NFC anymore. So it's going to be interesting to see what happens, but is the draft approach is grig. I'm not watching to see the number one pick is I don't really care who the picks are. I want to see what happens to Lamar Jackson. Because he's by four better than anyone who's coming out

in this draft and is a different maker and is one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL. And if I was the owner of one of these teams, I'd sit up at the table at the owners meeting and say, Hey, everyone, I'm not going along with the C word. I'm trading for Lamar Jackson. See in the Super Bowl. Well, especially in today's NFL game. I mean,

the running quarterback, the scrambler is the game. Yeah, he's the game. I mean, that's what that's how the football is played down the NFL. It's not about a dropback and throw. In three steps, it's a how can I run around and run for an 80 yard run and score the touchdown? So it's baffling. But like we talk about always with between these behind these big organizations,

there's always the behind the curtain. You know, there's the people that are off the field that are running the show. And this is another example of what's running the show right now. You know, an iconic quarterback that's sitting there just twirled in a thumbs waiting for a team to sign them. So it's crazy. I agree. A crazy story. He's too good to be sitting there right

now. He's too good to be sitting there. And again, doesn't have nearly the off the field problems. I love to show him lots. So the only thing that makes sense. I mean, we talk about this on the show all the time. When something is obvious, when it's logical, it's usually what the answer is. Yeah. I was not in the NFL meeting. I'm, you know, going to

be very careful here. But like, when it walks, I could duck and talks like a dog. It's usually a dog whack. And the fact that no one is traded for him yet. It's because no one wants to hand out that fully guaranteed contract. They don't want all the owners mad at them. They don't want to set the market for the other quarterbacks and know that, like,

okay, I guess we're in the fully guaranteed contract business. Not just with quarterbacks, but you know, it's going to trickle to wide receivers, running backs, start offensive players. I get to change the market. And the NFL owners don't want to do that. They can say to Sean Watson's an anomaly right now, because he's the only one with a fully guaranteed contract. I think cousin to might

have some form of a fully guaranteed contract too. But that's it. Like, this isn't the NBA. This isn't major league baseball, the NHL, where the contracts are fully guaranteed, no matter what. And the NFL owners do not want to change that dynamic. And they know, if they hand out another one to a star player, like Lamar Jackson, it's going to set the market. It's not fair

to Lamar. And again, if I were one of these owners, and I could get a generational player, like Lamar, I'd be breaking the mold in two seconds and saying, I'm signing in Lamar. I'm trading for Lamar. But that's where we're at. All right. Coming up. Next, John Oran. He is the media reporter for the sports business journal, the co-host of the Marchand and Oran sports media

podcast. We're going to dive into the world of sports media. So many deals going on. And what might happen in the future with the pack 12, the NBA and other entities. You're listening to sports business radio. We'll be right back. When it comes to your health and longevity, you hold nothing back. You understand what it means to push harder, reach farther, and go the extra mile.

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Berger. My guest is John Orrand. He is the media reporter for the sports business. He is the topic that I've wanted to cover with you. And I've been intensely listening to your podcast as well as you guys cover these. But let's start with the regional sports networks. You know, you've got Bally is going bankrupt. What does this mean for the future of team broadcasts with these

RSNs collapsing? We don't know yet. And that's why this is such a fascinating story to cover. Actually, Brian, because right now, you know, if you're a team and you're a team, with the Bally sports RSN, you know, they just went into bankruptcy. They have a lot of debt issues. And it's not looking great for, we'll see if they come out of bankruptcy. But the mere fact

they wanted to bankrupt, bankruptcy is not looking great for the teams or those leagues. Similarly, Warner Brothers Discovery owns four RSNs, including the one up in the Northwest, which has the rights to your Blazers. Right. Exactly. And they're also having a lot of financial problems. And they're looking, Warner Brothers Discovery told all the teams, they just want to get out entirely. So you have those two,

and you take a look at them, like, wow, everything is really just going, going poorly for the RSNs. But on the other side of the coin, NBC sports group owns several RSNs on both coasts. They're all of them, the whole group is profitable and looks to be profitable for the foreseeable future. I mean, my head's not in the same as an ostrich. The profits are gone

on a downward slope. But they still, it still is a good business for Comcast and for which owns NBC. Then you have the team on the RSNs. Yes, network is doing great. The Dodgers network down in Southern California. It's doing great. The Cubs launched a network, the Red Sox. So the idea that the entire system is going to blow up and we're going to be, and

that everybody's going to be watching their local games completely differently. This season or even within 12 months is not going to happen. But there are big fissures with companies that have financial troubles partly due to the media market, but partly due to the companies themselves. Yes, it's interesting. You know, it used to be the teams counted on that money every year, right? Like, oh, this is

the gravy, the RSN, you know, it was a lot of money. You could bank on it. You'd go with the highest bidder. But now, like you said, a lot of these teams, the Yankees and others are bringing this in-house. And you wonder at what point, you know, do the leagues either bring this in-house and it's all streaming or do the teams themselves bring it in-house and

just control everything without depending on the RSNs? I think it depends on the league. But right now, baseball is trying to do because the NBA wants to work with Diamond and try to prop up these, because like you said, it's a great, what a great business. The teams could write in like seven by him increases every single year. You know, do nothing, but except for, you

know, play the games. At the baseball is trying to get it back. It's trying to get it back at a league level. And then sort of go to market with you would just be watching local games differently. So, you know, I live in the DC market. I'm a big Orioles fan, which they play in the DC market. And the idea is that I would be able

to watch the Orioles or the Nationals or even the Red Sox or Yankees or Mariners in DC has part of a local, like extra innings subscription that has no blackouts whatsoever. So that's one way that they're looking for it. But what everybody's really looking at is the MLS deal that they just did with Apple. Just took all the national rights. It took all of the local

rights, international rights, everything. And went and did as one really big package. And what the NBA is really trying to do is that they're trying to prop up the ballies and the RSNs for at least two more years, because that's when their national rights come up. And that's when they think that they could go to the market with something big to where ESPN wants to renew

their deal. It's like, okay, but you have to pay us extra. You get the rights to the local teams and you go to ESPN plus and pull down drop down menu. I want to see the blazers. And you have to you either pay by the season or by the game or that hasn't been set up. But that could be a cost of doing business with the

NBA, which could replicate in a little way that the money that they're making from local rights fees. But that's that's that's still we're still long way from that that's still to be determined. What did you think of that MLS deal? You know, look on the headline is it's a long term deal and it was a lot of money. But I've always been one on this show

who talks about how much the market changes. And I thought to tie yourself into what was it a 10 year deal. Who knows what the world's going to look like 10 years from now. If you look at the increasing ways that rights fees have gone up, signing that deal today like Apple got that for the cheap compared to what rights fees may cost. 10 years from

now. That was my take. What was your take? You know, I actually have a little bit of a different take. I like the I liked the deal for for MLS. There is a lot of risk there. Because they're they're the first one to go really sort of go on Apple. But to me, it was an acceptable level of risk that they're trying to grow their sport.

And if you take a look at their TV ratings and a TV viewership, you know, over the past two decades, it's been kind of a flat line. Like it's not a very good TV sport. Could it be a good streaming? You're just kind of like watching it on your iPad or your iPhone. You know, I think that that's it's an acceptable risk to try to grow.

Their media brand somewhere. Then that wasn't working on television. And one other point about about the MLS too is they got the money that they wanted. I think that that was that was important to them. Because you talked about rights fees are going up. They're not going up for everybody. They're going up for the money. And I fell and the NBA and top tier teams, leagues,

conferences. But there's a there's a there's a dividing line between the halves and the have nots and the have nots are actually seeing the rights roll back a lot. So if you're if you fall below that line. And it appeared that as far as a TV sport, MLS fell below that line. Then that's, you know, that that's where you're starting to see some of the chord

cutting and some of the stresses that the that the business is finding. Oh, with MLS. You're listening to sports business radio. We'll be right back after this. There's nothing common about you. Now your talent, your drive, your achievements, or even your challenges. You need distinctive financial strategies that match your lifestyle and career trajectory. Morgan Stanley global sports entertainment was created to address your specific needs at

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we'll be right back. Let's talk about the NBA. So we'll be right back. Let's talk about the NBA. A couple of years ago, NFL signs an 11 year 110 billion dollar right steel with all the networks. I mean, just enormous deal. We've never seen anything like it. Well, now here comes the NBA. And you know, I wouldn't expect that they're going to match what the NFL

did, but they're going to do pretty well. And it's going to infuse even more money into the league. Do you think the incumbents, which are Disney and Warner Brothers discovery have the insight and the insight track? Do you think someone else might sneak in there and then also look, they just announced over the weekend that there's a new collective bargaining agreement. There's going to be this

new in season tournament. I wonder if they kind of form that out to someone or do they say, Hey, this is a new piece of inventory that we can monetize as we go to the table for the media rights. I think you know the answer to that question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. NBA can make money off the season tournament or just for I think they'll

I think they have a they'll have a pretty hefty price tag on that. Right. The tournament. I think that ESPN and like they haven't really even started the negotiations yet. I mean, they've started talking in comments always have an advantage. I'd an ESPN and really wants to keep it and they have the power of Disney behind it. They have great relations between Disney ESPN and Adam

Silver and the NBA. They have great relationships. I find it very difficult to see the NBA finals going anywhere, but ABC and ESPN and a pretty significant package of regular season and playoff games going to to them as well. And Turner on the other hand, it's the NBA. They're a little bit different. They have a long relationship with the NBA. The you know, going back to

the 1980s for goodness sakes. And I think Adam Silver has been with NBA for a long time. I think I don't think he wants to I think he values that continuity with with with Turner. The question is, and this goes back to what we were talking about with with the regional sports networks is their TBS and TNT are cable chain. The white models were connected by

the where I think you're going to see the NBA really look out. The other thing about this deal that is going to be really interesting. And some of the stresses that will be on the incumbents is that the NBA hasn't gone to the open market in more than 20 years since like the early 2000s. And you have NBC chomping at the bid to get in there.

And within NBC, Mark Lazarus, who has a long relationship, he was a with Turner for a long time. He's a senior executive at NBC. He wants to get the NBA. And NBC has been very clear about wanting to get the NBA. Fox has made some noise here and there about wanting to get in to see it. And then Amazon and Apple and at the end of

the year. This is the NFL is done until 2031, 2032. That's when the right steals go the major college footballs or packages go into to the end of the decade or early 2030s. This is the last really big rights package left. And I think that there's going to be a lot of activity around there. And the question is going to be how much does loyalty come

into the. What what the NBA does versus hard dollars and sounds. How much will they trust going to a streaming platform like Amazon or Apple versus, you know, traditional media companies that also have their own streaming platforms as well. And and it's I always describe it. Brian's like buying a house of yeah more than one bitter. The prices are going to go up. So I I'm

low to make a prediction because who knows what what it's going to be. But I do know there. There are a lot of bitters that are going around that want a piece of the NBA. That then be a sitting really really pretty right now. Yeah, I agree with everything you just said. And I think it's interesting. Look, ESPN's laying people off. It seems like ESPN has

money when they need it to pay, you know, Tric, minute Joe Buck and the manning brothers. But then, you know, you read. Oh, they're laying off, you know, hundreds of people. So they always seem to come up with the money when they need it. But I've heard too that NBC is lurking and you know, bring back that John tech music and the opening. Fame that I

listened to when I was younger, that was that was great. And then, you know, look, I think one of the best parts about the NBA is the NBA on TNT studio show, right? Like who doesn't love that? It's won so many awards. They just signed those guys to like decade, decade, long deals. So, you know, you wonder, gosh, if Warner Brothers discovery didn't maintain the NBA,

they've already put that money up. Front there with those guys supposedly, that would just be odd. The thing about those contracts, I'm told is that they all have outs in them in case the Turner doesn't renew the, the, the, the, the industry. So that that, that would be something that, potentially, they could replicate elsewhere. That's a, that's such a fascinating show to me because it's not

a, to me, it's not a pregame show. Right. It's a, it's a, and it's not even as an NBA show. It's an entertainment show. And, and, and, they're goofy and, and, and, and funny. And what, and poignant, and they have good analysis. And it's just like every now and then they talk about the game that's actually going, you know, right? But more often than not, they're

just kind of talking about whatever interests them in a really engaging way. It's, I mean, I think it's a really, really good entertainment show. Yeah. Don, have you had a chance? I'm sure to watch the alternate broadcast like the Manning Brothers. I watched Verdun Tarot. I watched the Bosse, this weekend, they bring on guests. It's a different way to watch a game. What do you think

of these alternate broadcasts? You know, I am a big fan of watching Monday Night Football with the Manning's. Cause I learned something. And I find them. This is like what we were just talking about with inside the NBA. They're just to entertaining. And then. So, you know, especially if I'm, if I don't care a lot about the game, it's a fun way for me to kind

of, kind of sit with the Manning's and what I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I as they watch the game and, and talk to, you know, whatever guests

that they bring in, I think burdened Tarrasi are very similar. It's sort of like a really unique way to watch the game out with them. Cause they, they do more than just sort of, you know, do X's and O's. And the, those, the thing though about these alternate broadcasts, because they've been doing them forever. As you know, like, you know, the coaches show or, you know,

the fans show. Right. They, in terms of viewership, you know, even the Manning cast, because the, the, the, the Manning's get a ton of press, because people like me watch them all, all the time. But they don't bring in the viewers. They bring in like one tenth of the viewers, like that, that, that Monday night football does. So, you know, part, the, the question is whether

they're bringing in new viewers that wouldn't be watching Monday night football or whether they're, they're, they're bringing, they're just siphoning viewers, like, I mean, that would have been watching Monday night football. One thing is, I'll stay, I'll stay longer with the Mannings in a bad game, just because I'm finding them entertaining. That, that, that then I would have a, if it was just on, uh, ESPN.

So maybe it's worth it in that sense. But I, uh, this is something that you're going to see, um, moving forward a lot more. And it, and the ones that are going to be successful are the ones that are, that are going to be really stardewed. And Peyton Manning is a, he's a bonafide TV star, don't you think? I do. And I, I'm going to tell

you, I'm surprised by Eli. He's really good too. Look, I did not know Eli was as funny as he is, personable. Um, he's one of the few people that could probably give it back to his brother. And, and, you know, there's not, uh, a side eye, like, you know, they, they have that good relationship, much like burden, Tarrossi due to. Yeah. Eli was a pleasant surprise

for me as well. Cause I already knew Peyton was a big TV star. Eli kind of like, he, he, he, uh, he's become almost a star of that show for going to say, you're listening to sports business radio. We'll be right back after this. Five G is here. Is your stadium ready? From an immersive fan experience to a fishing game day operations, five G is transforming

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out here on the West Coast. Everyone wants to know what in the world is going on with the Pac 12 media rights. You know, there's people out here talking about if they don't get a good media rights deal, the conference may go away or certainly not look like it does right now. What are you hearing? Yes. I'm loads. I'm making a prediction because if you make

a prediction, all it takes is one person to say, all right, let's do it. Let's get it. But what I can tell you is that the market among television networks is really appears to be drying up for the Pac 12. CBS was interested at one point in maybe doing a game a week. And I've been told they're not as interested. NBC hasn't really shown any interest

whatsoever. Fox has shown like they're still around in case the money gets down so low that they can get an ESPN. You mentioned the cost cutting earlier. We mentioned that line. The MLS fell behind. It appears at the Pac ESPN views the Pac 12 as falling below that line. They're already in bed with the SEC. And what the big 12 and then every other college conference

that's out there pretty much. And there was a good deal. There was a good television deal to be had. Before the big 12 did their deal, but the big 12's deal actually took some money out of the pocket. And thank you for plugging the podcast. My podcast we had. Nick Khan, former CIA agent who is now he now runs WDW. And he knows he's inside and

knows everything that's going on with this. And he suggested that what the Pac 12 should do is basically kind of put their tail between the legs. Go to ESPN cut a short term deal for not nearly as much money as they were expecting or had promised that their schools wait for the. I mean, we're in the. Either in a recession or not, but the economy's not

great. Meeting companies are linked. They come back in three years. Rights will always sports rights will always have some value. So his advice to the to the conference was a short term deal. Regroup and come back into the market and and three years with the you know with a little bit more leverage and they have right now. Yeah, it's can be interesting. So John endeavor is

acquiring WW E endeavor also owns UFC. What does this mean? I mean, you were just talking about Nick Khan. He's in the mix with WW E. What does this mean for the landscape? So expect a lot of sharing of possibly talent, certainly resources as UFC and WWE. They're going to each be their own distinct companies, but they're going to work side by side with each other.

So Dana White will have much more of a say and or much more influence over WWE. Certainly, then then he does right now. One thing about WWE that that's interesting to me is they do really, really well. In terms of media rights. They have deals with. Comcast NBC and and. Who's the other one? Oh, and with Fox. And and and they they've done a really good

job with that. The WrestleMania just was last weekend sold out so far. Arena down in Los Angeles. They do really well at the gate. What what endeavor can bring to them though is marketing is selling sponsorships around things. This is this is what they do. So in terms of rope with being associated with endeavor. Really. The executives believe will turbo charge WWE and everything around it.

And and and and. And there. There's a lot of things that I'm going to do. There's they believe that there's a huge room for growth, including in the rights, rights deal because they just reopen the negotiations and and they're, you know, their deals about to end. And they're out there. In the market now trying to get more money out of these networks. So which is another

problem, by the way, for the pack 12 because there are all these other like WWE raw is a most viewed show on cable television. Believe it or not. Other than if you consider money, it's like ball, but the amendment, but it's the it gets reliable ratings. People want to get this and they're there. There is a sense that the big 12 WWE UFC is coming up

to. They're all taking some money out of the market. All right, just a couple more questions before I let you go. Pickleball. I love playing pickleball. I don't know walking it on TV. I did like the pickleball slam this past weekend with Agacy. Mac and Row and Rodic and Michael Chang. But short of that, like, I'd rather play it than watch it. But we're seeing pickleball

make deals. Do you think it translates to TV? I'm not a I'm not a fan of it as a as a TV sport. I will say this. A lot of big names. Third associated with pickleball. And a lot of big time private equity money is involved with pickleball. So they're making a big bet on on this as sort of the next thing. And that's always the

thing. You know, you look at back in the like 70s and 80s when I was a kid playing soccer, all the kids were playing soccer. It's like, oh, the playing soccer. So they're going to watch soccer. And what did it take? It took decades for that to take hold. So it's all it's usually a folly where you get something is popular of a participation sport as

pickleball and say like, oh, that's so popular. It'll translate into a TV sport. That doesn't necessarily always happen. Well, it usually doesn't have anything right. All right. Last question. Apple has MLS as we discussed earlier. They've got MLB head laughs so huge. So they've got, you know, kind of a sports entertainment audience. They have more money than anyone. Do they buy more sports in the future?

What do you think they do? Because it seems like they're just kind of, you know, shortly getting into the game a little bit. They've been their toe in the water, but they've got all this cash on hand that they could go to market with if they want. You know, Apple's a so interesting. Because I used to view them that way too. Like they have the they

have deeper pockets than anybody. Right. You know, Amazon does too. But you know, at some point, you know, they're I have for profit company at some point like they're not going to do deals to lose money on them. And so they, they have enough money to buy and sell the NBA a couple of times. Over. Right. But if they if they double the bid that Disney

ESPN is going to get, are they prepare are they prepared to lose that money? And like at what point does and then if you're the NBA, do you want to actually do that? Because you know, the next time the rights come up, you know, that, you know, all of sudden the leverage will have changed a little bit. Because you'll certainly have a weakened, you know, TV

networks as well. The NBA deals one that I'm really watching. What with with that? Apple to see how serious they are. Even with the MLS deal, it's a lot of money for MLS. I think 250 million per year. That's, you know, and that is that even an episode of Ted Lasso is probably the lesson. It's not a lot to Apple. And it still feels with the

baseball, with the soccer, that they're just testing this to see if this is if sports is really or live programming is really an area where they where they want to go. So the next big one is the NBA Apple doesn't have to get it, but I'm going to be really curious to see if they get engaged in in terms of, of actually wanting it. Don Oran

media reporter for the sports business journal. Listen to him and Andrew March on on the sports media podcast. It's fantastic. Follow John on Twitter at orin underscore SPJ. John, I always enjoy our conversations. Thank you so much for joining us on sports business radio. I always appreciate the invite Brian. Thanks for having me. Thank you. I love playing. Pick them and rivals with pick them. You

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