The World is Waking up to the Power of Crypto

Welcome everyone to POV Crypto, the only podcast that both big corners and a theory and system to. I'm David Hoffman, here with my buddy Christian, Christian, how you doing? Way to start this podcast off. Doing fantastic, man. This is my first POV in my new office, my new studio. The first time I've had a big white room all to myself. Yeah, congratulations on like having a

complete studio. There's something different about having like a dedicated space to record in because you know, by definition, you spend a lot of time there. I put plants in mine as you can tell, plants and cool lights. I recommend you do the same. The customizing is in its very, very, very early stages. So, you can see it coming together already. It's going to evolve. I don't

know if it's going to have the exact same aesthetic as yours, but I'm a fan of what you got going on. This has been a long, long time in the making. Anyways, for the podcast listeners who can't enjoy the visual, if there's a lot of plants behind me. Christian and I have a question for you and all the big winners out there. Are you guys ready

for just NFTs to just dominate the headlines for the next 12 months? I'm zen with it. I don't like to OG NFTs. I'm anticipating the skyrocketing value, but I don't actually give a fuck about them. So like in the crypto world and the DeFi world, in the Ethereum world, mainly we have like these two groups of people that we generally separate by very loose lines. That's

wealth people or status people. In the status people are the NFT people. NFTs are, so those are about status. Where you show off your cool NFTs that you've got purchased. And then there's the wealth people who are about ERC 20s or currencies or assets. So there's these two different camps. I definitely find myself on the whole wealth side of things rather than the whole NFTs and

art doesn't make any sense to me. So explain, wait, before you, before the, but explain the sadist metaphor, like are you saying that they are status like they believe in the state? And no, no, no, no, excuse me. Do I say status? I've been status status. Okay. I think you'll be able to say about status. I've been statused. Yeah. No, it's a status versus wealth kind

of thing. And like obviously these lines are blurry, right? Because like, if you're going to buy, if you're going to be the individual that buy uses their wealth to buy fine art, like, what does that make you? You're a little bit of both. But like, it's the NF, the NFT side of things are like people who want to show off their status. Yeah. So you call

it the wealth people and then the status people. And I just call it skew more fake. Let's not, let's not go down that rebel hole. NFTs are about to be like, it has so much surface area for exposure, it's, it's going to pull in so many people. Yeah, no, I agree. This is good for Bitcoin. When you define everything is good for Bitcoin, they're like cool.

That's not a unique opinion. I mean, I'm not trying to give a unique opinion. I'm just trying to state why I said why don't care. Like, I mean, I, you know, I think that NFTs are interesting in the same sense, like on the guidelines of what you described last episode, right? Which is like the in power of these people to monetize access to scoble liquidity pool

and these markets. And, you know, right now they're super hyped and it's great marketing. And it's going to, can you to blow up it? Like, if you think about an ICO and then you think about NFT, an NFT has way more consumer. That's when I got really excited. So I mean, it's fantastic. All that stuff is great. And I mean, I don't think it's a great

investment. I mean, it's probably going to go up, but I don't know about your cipher punks being a great store value in the long term. They might be a fad, you're good. I don't know. Crypto punks. Crypto punks. Yes, right. I'm egging. This is where my ignorance is showing very, very clearly. I'm out of my domain of expertise. I am also skeptical as to the long

term value of these things. I think like NFTs and art are inherently like illiquid. And that's kind of why they are so highly valued is that like you don't need 10,000 buyers. You just need one buyer, right? You just need one buyer to put in that very high bid. And then all of a sudden you have like a crazy high valuation on the NFT. But like

illiquidity works well in bull markets, but in bear markets, it does not work well. Not at all. Like all of a sudden that like 30 e that you paid for this crypto punk turns into three e because there are no buyers, right? Yep. Big Quentina said this on the big Quentina special, but he said that the problem with art and real estate is that they're both

a matter of fashion. Right. So some areas of New York used to be the posh areas. And now those are like the boring areas of New York. And now the areas I were disgusting and no one would ever be seen there. Now those are the cool hip areas in New York. And that's forever changing and fashion also changes a lot. Right. And like I think we

can even extend this back to just all value in general, right? Where where like value is is shared perceptions of humans, right? It's a share of story shared myth. But some myths are fleeting more fleeting than others and more some myths are more lasting than others. And like when when NFTs are like, you know, not a dime it doesn't, but you can mint a bajillion NFTs,

right? Like some of them are going to fall out of fashion. Some of them won't, you know, for some fucking reason this Mona Lisa NFT has held its value for a really long time. But most, most other real world NFTs, aka art, don't do that. I mean by definition there has to be a power curve of art. So that's how you can see the value storage.

Right. Like that's just how earth and nature and humanity works. Like, yeah. 80% of the people are going to want the 20% of art that they can have. And, you know, 80% of the value is going to be stored in that art. And there's going to be, you know, you can fractal that down and up. Like that's just, again, that's nature. Sure. Like humans are not

going to call less around an equally divided set of value in equal, you know, in kind of like Eccles read out parts across art. It's not going to be like that. It's going to be a power distribution. Right. And that power distribution definitely has to come from the fact that like people can migrate their opinions from opinion to opinion, right? And so things can go in

and out of fashion. So you said something about like all value is effectively subjective. And like, I agree that value is subjective, but I also agree that what is money is not necessarily subjective. I think that that is objective because of its characteristics and the network effects are obvious at the time. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So like there are certain money money media mediums

are technically and objectively better than others. But that doesn't stop the fact that like Bitcoin isn't worth anything except for the except for what people will pay for it and what people will pay for it is a subjective exercise. So like there's both, there's both sides of this equation, right? Bitcoin is objectively a better money for all the monetary properties. And it makes sense as to

why many people perceive Bitcoin to be valuable, but it will always be a perception at the end of the day. Well, isn't that the whole point of like the most liquid good and like something that's extremely liquid is like everyone wants it and everyone kind of has a price in their like, I don't know. And right now, like Bitcoin is not in its long, like if

Bitcoin works out, it's not going to remain in this kind of relationship with volatility in the market. You know, if it works out, like everyone is going to be using this thing to value wealth. So therefore, like, no, like it doesn't seem like there's going to be a subjective, like dollars aren't super subjective. I mean, I guess like there's the truth. So it's the difference between

the value of the paper and the ink and the value of what you can get for that. Because of the symbol, like the dollars assemble and symbols are inherently subjective. But it's also a network of stored value. Right. But it's also just physically, like all of a sudden, like we could like if some fucking reason, like the collective human hive mind, all collectively decided to not

give a fuck about the dollar and instead give a fuck about Bitcoin or vice versa or asset A to asset B. Then like that's technically possible. It's completely unfeasible. But like again, the value, the value is because other people believe it, which means it stays in the subjective realm. But I'm not prepared to go down this rabbit hole right now. Okay. All right. The other conversation

I wanted to bring up is, do we want to pivot from, are we done with NFTs? No, this is a similar NFT conversation. Okay. Let's go. You said that NFTs are good for Bitcoin. And I'm like, sure, because NFTs are crypto surface area and Bitcoin is a part of crypto. But like NFT surface area is is more, much more relevant to Ethereum. Like it's good for

Bitcoin because it's good for Ethereum. And like it's because it's good for Bitcoin is downstream. From the fact that it's good for Ethereum is good for Ethereum first and foremost. Let's not, let's not muddle those waters. I mean, I think Ethereum is good for Bitcoin. But I mean, yeah, obviously, I think they are not a lot of Ethereum wallets. They are spreading Ethereum's physical infrastructure network

effects. So that is as money. Sure. They need to acquire eth and use eth as money within that ecosystem. Like those are dominant network effects things. But if you zoom out, like all of ECUX are effectively similar to on chain Bitcoin UX. So now all of those people, like from a capability, from a learning, from an onboarding perspective, like they pretty much know how to do

a QR code scan. They know to check the little, you know, either the first or last digits of the address to make sure it's like authentic. Like, you know, they, they've kind of gone through that, the onboarding excess kind of like how in the early, Bitcoin days, people would onboard people with dogecoin paper wallets, like get used to the UX, like hold your hand. So like,

I'm not trying to downplay like the love, you know, I'm not trying to downplay what NFTs are doing from bringing kind of the masses or the plebeians to crypto UX. But I mean, there is absolutely kind of like downstream effects just because they share you Bitcoin on chain and Ethereum on chain share a lot of similar, you know, similar processes. Yes. And I think in other

words, you're just saying that that this is just NFTs are good for crypto because all these are features that all of crypto shares. Well, I just think that Bitcoin's monetary gravity wall is going to suck value through that. Yeah. Okay. So that kind of brings us into the question about or the topic of BTC pumping forever, which is something I want to talk about because I

do believe that BTC will pump forever along along the same lines more or less about how like the S&P generally pumps forever. Like that's kind of the S&P brand, right? You just put your money in the S&P and then it goes up. And so Bitcoiners are like Bitcoin pumps forever because Bitcoin can only go can only become more and more scarce in the face of more

and more value existing in the world. But like that's literally the same way as by 21 million. Yeah, I'm feeling that's great. It's a great point. But the point is is that other value can still be created and outperform Bitcoin. And like I understand as Bitcoin is a great measure, the value appreciation of Bitcoin is a great measure of something that you need to beat if

you want to quote unquote beat the market. And but I believe in plenty of possibilities of plenty of things outperforming Bitcoin because many other things underperformed Bitcoin. And so I think Bitcoin is a great benchmark, but it doesn't mean it's going to be the dominant asset because there are going to be other assets that outperform Bitcoin. So what's like your time frame here? Like what are

you talking about? Like five to 20 20 years. Like twice as long as crypto has been a thing. So if you I think you if you ask Bitcoiners that have thought about what hyper Bitcoin is a share of Bitcoin. Now what the question looks like. What they'll tell you is it is a new world where objective and subjective value determination can be made a lot more

clearly because there's a clear medium for measuring value. And while, you know, there won't be as much investment in things because there's going to be a lot less miss allocation of capital because we have a clear monetary medium. There will be investment in business, right? And so, but there's going to be a separation between store of value and business risk. Right now the S&P 500 is

the reason why you index is to get rid of the the the company specific risk. But you're not getting rid of business risk in general. You're not getting rid of, you know, market overall market risk. Like there's still cyclicality to the S&P. Same with the housing market. Same with all of the these things. And I would say that the fact that there is so much value

stored in equities, there's so much value stored in housing beyond like their direct utility for, you know, housing and cash flow. That that proves that one goal is broken as a store value. But it also shows that there's just a lot of opportunity for a true sound money, like for a true thing to like appropriately calibrate the world. And in a Bitcoin world like there will

be business. And those business investments should outperform Bitcoin, right? If they're not, the business is going to put like, but that's the whole point is that now we have a good way to measure business investment rather than, you know, like we have to invest in the S&P because dollars are going to shit. And it doesn't matter what the cash flow is of the business. Right. And

I think the point I was trying to make is that Bitcoin can quote unquote pump forever while also Bitcoin not being like, the dominant outperformer of the decade for the next like five decades as it has been for the last decade, right? Like other assets should outperform Bitcoin. And like maybe maybe also the conversation goes to like, well, what about like on the 250 year time

horizon? Like what asset is going to outperform Bitcoin then? And then then that's a more interesting scenario. So I think you're a shit. Well, my my scenario would be like the only asset that could out can be can be Bitcoin on like a 250 year. Time horizon is something that fits in the in the cited same realm of being a public permission. This blockchain perhaps one

called the theorem. So this is why like Bitcoin's not supposed to be an investment forever. Like the way I'm not interested in NFTs. I'm not interested in tokens is because this is the time horizon where Bitcoin goes from like the bottom part of the of the adoption S curve up this. And then to the top part of the adoption. The adoption S curve. It starts with

a flatness goes parabolic and then goes back flat. So when Bitcoin goes back flat, there's going to be tons of shit that outperform Bitcoin all the time. People aren't going to be speculatively investing in Bitcoin. So at Moons, they're going to be buying it. So that way they can hold their value, not loser value. And then they're going to be using it to measure opportunity costs.

That is the sound money dream. So in that world, fuck like probably new age, you know, futuristic. And then what exactly are you saying though? Are you saying that downt fellowship like Bitcoin number will go up and then flatline and ether number will go up and just keep going up? Oh no now now I've completed two separate scenarios where I say like yes like Bitcoin is

not like the world's best performing asset for every single year into the future it is the new benchmark right and within that definition there will be things that I'll perform it my then the second part of the conversation I say is like well Bitcoin perhaps won't be the only benchmark and perhaps to get it be actually the less dominant benchmark another public permissionless blockchain currency perhaps

a Theorem and ether being that secondary benchmark and we could have two competing benchmarks right yeah like there's don't dominate any sort of denominator and Bitcoin I know you don't I know you don't see that either something else but I don't think that there's going to be two benchmarks it's because there was two benchmarks it's called silver and gold and no one would not I would

just enjoy the other that's not Ethereum is not Bitcoin silver like that's not what it is it's something it you're you're totally right it's something different and it's not like a hard money benchmark but it is a benchmark of a different nature that is a valid alternative benchmark okay we'll see we will see I mean maybe we'll surely as the benchmark in this NFT community I

mean right art art is price and eith like digital art price and eith yeah but eith is price and Bitcoin so Bitcoin is price and eith I literally price Bitcoin and eith so it's been going down huh yes sure in the short term it's also been going up it's all mainly going up if you really want to put it into the all the way zoom out

versus Bitcoin it's been going up I mean I could have been dunking on you really hard throughout the entire beginning of POV crypto because it was going only down for like a year and a half but I have to give you that because we know a lot of articles and during that time yeah that's because you Bitcoin like risk off assets of which Bitcoin is one

outperforming bear markets that's that's just we we aren't even at like a complete one for like one cycle revolution in POV crypto history yet sure do we keep going is this a short show I have these good those are those are all my topics okay well what's your go on price right now I tried to look into how to buy options because I want to buy

$4,000 ether I want to buy $4,000 call options in May but there's no good place to do that what do you like dare a bit but I have to KYC and they don't accept US citizens and then also hegic which is a DeFi protocol but it only goes four weeks out not not long enough I don't know what I don't know what eith is going to

be in four weeks it could be flat but I know in May it's going to be at least $4,000 I know this I have insider information guys we're getting together in the $4,000 in May more than $5,000 is it yeah we're gonna set a parameter in the Ethereum protocol to set it to $4,000 yeah that's what you can do you can just program money that's exactly

right programmable money programed $4,000 you're right guys you guys can follow the podcast at POV crypto pod on Twitter you can follow me at trustless state both on Twitter and on bankless Christian you guys can follow me at ck underscore snarks you can find me at bitcoin magazine and yeah bitcoin 2021 show use promo code Satoshi to get 10% off David will be when is that

that's in Miami yeah Miami June 4th and 5th June 4th yeah I'll be there for sure yeah for sure of all my time that I spent spent down in Florida never actually went to Miami coven mixed those plans here is your chance you can have a second wind at Miami and every bitcoiner is going to be there so it's going to be a good time lovely

lovely maybe maybe Brady can finally give me that Ethereum t-shirt that he promised me I hope he burns it come on no he promised he promised he give it to me he promised in person I I asked him to mail it to me and he said no I have to give it to him person I'm like okay all right watch it's gonna be too big yeah

actually that's a good point I can't remember if we've collaborated on size yet or talked about that anyways here's everyone I tend it up good right um are you sure yeah yeah I did so it's live for me Hey you you h absolute me you and me If nothing's true then you might as well tear the light. If lies are the minutes are for you to

decide Will you just see? Will you just see? Will you just see? Will you just see? Will you just see? We never call in all time We never call in all time We never call in all time We never call in all time So you know that we're tired So you know that we're tired