The Physical and The Digital Collide - POV Crypto

Welcome everyone to POV Crypto the only podcast that both Bitcoiners and a Theories listen to I'm David Hoffman here with my buddy Christian Christian. Hi, you're doing trying to do this in person one again I'm feeling we're a little bit drunk less drunk this time. So this one's gonna be a little bit more postable. We're straightforward. Yeah, and a little bit more direct This is the

second week after Bitcoin Miami. No, first week first week. Yeah, so reflections Christian How did it go? I think it went really well, man a lot of coverage. It was very impactful obviously they all Salvador news is world news Trump kind of responding to it. We talked about it a little bit but again like Bitcoin's game theory is coming into play. I think people you know

people inside of Bitcoin and people outside of Bitcoin are kind of kind of kind of coming to grips with that and you know there's definitely cope but mostly mostly you know I think this is huge news I think that this has macro economic effects across the board. So Nick Carter was talking about how this Bitcoin being legal tender in El Salvador is using Bitcoin for a

intended purpose and when he said that that gave me pause because who's to say what the intended purpose is right. So do you agree that the El Salvador using Bitcoin as it's as legal tender is Bitcoin being used for its intended purpose and also what is Bitcoin's intended purpose. Well it's tough to say like what is Bitcoin's intended purpose but what I would say is that

when Bitcoin was created that a specific game theory kind of came into play especially when Bitcoin didn't die after a few years in Satoshi was no longer a part of the project. Like this game theory it was kind of instrumentalized and Bitcoin or talk about this game theory a lot and we ultimately think it turns into Bitcoin as a black hole sucking up all value and

you know large actors are forced to buy. So I think when Nick is saying it's intended purpose he's kind of talking about this game theory that Bitcoin or to have been talking about and predicting for a long time. Interesting. Yeah. So I think when you talked about how there's like cope coming from non Bitcoiners about El Salvador one of those things might be a bunch of

the Ethereum people talking about how like businesses in El Salvador are forced to use this currency which is like you know very much in line with typical legal tender laws but also very much not in line with what I thought the ethos of crypto crypto would be which is you know the freedom to choose right the freedom freedom to choose you as your own currency. How

we talked about this on the last POV crypto podcast but do you have any reflections on that? I mean nation states are nation states and they do nation states stuff. So when a nation states says the coins are a currency you know we're making everyone use it like that's just it but nation states can voluntarily choose and the El Salvadorian people have already voluntarily been using

Bitcoin for a long time. One of the reasons is Bitcoin beaches has been an experiment. That's been happening on a beach called I think it's gosh I'm totally blanking out on El Zonte. It's a city in town beach side town and in El Salvador and it's been a 100% circular economy Bitcoin town for a long time. So it's kind of been this like micro experiment news

in prosperity around that area has kind of been increasing and Bitcoin's been propagating and that's kind of how the president eventually got involved. Obviously El Salvador is a very small country which is like some of the critics have been saying like oh it's a small country it's meaningless but still like it's a country and Bitcoin has entered into that realm now. I think why like the

there's there's definitely been this is one of the biggest like acid tests I think of the same acid test that we've seen with Bitcoin in Ethereum where like you know Bitcoin gets adopted as legal tender for a physical nation state and then all the big pointers are super happy about it. It's like positive news left and right and the Ethereum communities are like overall confused as

to like why this is what it is but I think when we put it through the framing of like and let me know if you agree with this framing but like Bitcoin is trying to just keep the old financial system keep the old laws keep the old like universe but just put inject Bitcoin into it where Ethereum is trying to be like well let's just create

a new a new land new virtual territory new virtual you know financial system and you can opt into that and not only and then and that's like where that kind of non-coeurge and comes in from is like Ethereum's app layers you know you can choose any token you want to use on Ethereum's app layers not you're not compelled to use it the bare minimum thing you're

compelled to use is to pay ether for gas but it's it's very much like not in the interest of Ethereum to just re be a part of the existing financial system but Bitcoin is very much like let's have all the same stuff but now we use Bitcoin how do you how do you feel with that take. I mean it's just funny how both communities think the

other ones are humor-fig right. So I would say that Bitcoin opens up a completely new financial paradigm and there's a game theory with how it's being adopted across the globe and to some people that looks like oh we're just plugging Bitcoin in to the old system but ultimately like plugging Bitcoin into the old system is completely changing the old system on top of that there's just

Bitcoin native things that are just not possible with the old system. And I think that those things are going to continue to like you know show themselves and get utilized right you know one of the things is storing and holding your own keys right so there's the old way which is self custody in a bank and but Bitcoin obviously enables this new way and those you

know those ways use Bitcoin are revealing themselves so I think that that is you know we got to be patient second third order effects thinking and you know it's really easy to say like oh you know El Salvador is forcing their people to use Bitcoin therefore Bitcoin's not permissionless or voluntary. Like Bitcoin has been permissionless and voluntary up until this point and just because El Salvador

is doing a country thing with Bitcoin doesn't necessarily put Bitcoin into a box per se. Yeah I think the comment is more along the lines of just like it's just against the ethos right like Bitcoin even though it's not against the ethos of a nation state to coerce people to use legal tenders but it is against the ethos of Bitcoin to like force things upon people

because Bitcoin is all about the freedom to choose but like it's just a friction that like it's a friction like I don't really think it's like meaningful in the line. So can I jump in I was eight to the dismay of many Bitcoiners Bitcoin is permissionless and and and guess what they're Bitcoin best practices and things that align with the Bitcoin ethos and there's things that

don't but you can't stop anyone from doing the wrong thing. A perfect example of that is blockchain.com I would say if you ask any Bitcoin or they would not recommend blockchain.com to wall it at all they would say it sucks that at a date all this kind of bad stuff about it. If you look at the actual usage is like 40% of Bitcoin usage is blockchain.com.

So as much as Bitcoin or say blockchain.com they can't stop blockchain.com from servicing and using the Bitcoin network and as much as you don't think that El Salvador being a country using Bitcoin. It doesn't fit in the Bitcoin ethos. You can't stop them from using it. So permissionless technology. Yeah. I guess any use of Bitcoin in the Bitcoin ethos is in the use of any use

of Bitcoin is automatically inside of the Bitcoin ethos because if it's permissionless anyone can kind of say what the Bitcoin ethos is like inside of El Salvador. This is what we do. What I was going to say next. I was going to say something but the other thing I was going to talk about is that one of the other discrepancies I've seen out of the Bitcoin

YM conference is that Bitcoiners are really into the Lightning network all of a sudden. All of a sudden the Lightning network is like back into the forefront of the Lightning network. The people I trust are super bullish on the Lightning network. People like Nick Carter. He had this tweet where he was going through a list of takeaways out of the Bitcoin 2021 conference. One of those

takeaways was like the maturity and adoption level of the Lightning network. And that was confusing to me because why is that a takeaway from a conference rather than something that I was going to say. So it's something that you experienced or felt. And so again, one of the two realities, quicks, I quest. So the guy that made the Dilbert comment, Scott Adams, he talked about how

there's like with the Republicans and the Liberals. Two people are watching the same movie and they're coming out with two different interpretations. And that's very much what I'm seeing going on largely with Bitcoin and Miami and overall what's going on in the crypto spheres like Bitcoiners and theetherians were watching the same movie. But we come out with completely different interpretations like Bitcoin Bitcoiners going to Bitcoin

2021. They're like, dude, Lightning Networks here, man, Lightning Networks, fucking bullish. Like it's ready to go. It's mainstream and theetherians are like you guys are still talking about the Lightning Network. Like what's up? Like I'm I had a guy who's trying to go on to Jack Moller's website and trying to like sync up a Lightning Network node and it wasn't working. And so all the Ethereum

people are like you guys are just scamming people with this fake like Lightning Lightning Network narrative. Like where the hell is it? It's not here yet. So what's your what's your take? Like what's the Lightning Network up to these days? Yeah, I mean, I'm not a Lightning Network expert. And I would say that like Lightning Network is kind of like the if you want to be

a PayPal or if you want to be a Venmo like that's where Lightning Network is kind of in the layer. So I think like a Theorians like they just think of this world of like everyone has a wall at everyone has an address. Everything is flat on Ethereum. Bitcoiners would say no, it's a layered system. And the thing is like the Lightning Network presents an opportunity

for a square Venmo to get onto an open source permissionless payment network. Anyone can get onto it, right? But on the flip side, you know, a mom and pop who happens to be a whale can also be a liquidity provider. They can also compete on that level if they really wanted to put in the work of building out that kind of a business. So there's like

kind of this like wide variety of different types of people who have a business. Who can use Lightning in what ways. And I feel like that nuance is really lost upon Ethereum to just don't care about it. And just like the similar to like, you know, if you talk about all the amazing things are having with Roll-Ups and DeFi, Bitcoiners like I don't give a shit.

Like there's a token on it's this again. You know, like so like I feel like these things go both ways and it's good to know your your sphere of competency. And it's also good to like trust smart people who care about that stuff and who are spending time there. Because I know where you are not spending time. So I don't know like personally, I'm not lightning

guru. I'm not like on top of it. But I do know that there are several companies in several wallets that are providing lightning infrastructure that people were using to do payments across the conference. And I think like between like the gaming area and different stores around the space are around the conference. Like you could start seeing the circular economy and how smooth the UX was on

an open source network. So maybe you know, I think that's what I'm going to say. That's what was making people really bullish. I was at the store. So I definitely saw like what's called 30% Bitcoin payments, 30% cash payments and then 40% credit card payments. So, you know, of the Bitcoin payments mostly lightning. And there was always more convenient to be on lightning pay. Okay, cool

confirmed. Here's your stuff versus I have to like wait for a confirmation or at least wait for it to hit the mempool with with an on change transaction. So it feels better like the UX is better. And I think that's what I'm saying. And I got yet to see like something that depends on a blockchain that feels like lightning. Right. So I have to say that.

Right. So. So the so the the Ethereum to are saying that like the lightning network as a meme is a myth are just straight up uninformed. Uninformed, but also there maybe they just have wrong expectations. Like I think everyone in a theory and things like it should just be my phone or my what my ledger. And that's all it takes, which is funny because that's takes

a lot more to actually run an Ethereum node than that. But in terms of like let's just call access the full stack of services. So with lightning that's not necessarily the case. There's tradeoffs per say and maybe they just don't like that. But lightning as a network it works. It's there. And I think maybe it's for bigger users in general. But again, it's permissionless and like

again, we have this little box right here. That thing can be a full like business grade lightning node. So it doesn't take that much hardware, but it does take a little bit more handholding and that kind of stuff. Yeah. You showed me earlier today. Zap wallet. Zap wallet. So strike. Yeah. Strike by by Zap the company. Is that how it works? So let's just call it

Jack Mallorz. Zap is his open source wallet. And then he created a real business, which is strike. Okay. And then okay. So strike is this lightning network enabled Bitcoin wallet that the metaphor you gave me was this. Like cash app except for Bitcoin. And that's actually what it looks like. It actually looks like that. And so when I was when I saw like the how El

Salvador is going to onboard all these people onto Bitcoin is going to be use a lightning network. And like. Is El Salvador ready to do all this complex lightning network stuff. But then the whole cash app metaphor makes makes it land really, really well. It's like no, they just have to download an app. And it's the cash app version for the lightning network. And all of

a sudden all of these like UX UI issues and like personal running and node issues. All of a sudden that makes Oh yeah. No, that's irrelevant. You just make a custodial, which again goes back to the whole thing is like, Oh, yeah, we have the same financial system. And now we're copying it. But now we just use Bitcoin, right? Like the custodial nature. Jack Mallorz calls

it a neo bank is very much inside of like the rest of like what mine and Ryan's criticism criticism. Some Bitcoin is like the way that it scales. Is it just use its custodial custodiality? You don't even know if that's a word. But also at the same time, there's also the broader question is like, does most of the world care about decentralization? And for as far

as like an El Salvadorian population who just wants to use Bitcoin, like, I'm sure they're not going to give a fuck. I'm sure they're just going to download the app and start using it. Well, I mean, so this is why it's like a layers thing, right? So again, Bitcoin gives El Salvadorians access to the unit, right? So the blockchain that is decentralized that does have all

these easy to run nodes. It ensures 21 million and the validity of only valid transactions actually happening. These El Salvadorians are several layers removed from that. So maybe they do care about non custodial. They can they have every ability to take advantage of the option. But they don't like. They can still access the best money in the world in a way that they're comfortable with. So

I think that like that is kind of what's happening. And we're still early in the game, right? So I mean, again, I think that's what I'm going to say. And I think as long as we're open about the tradeoffs and a lot again, something like strike, you can actually withdraw your Bitcoin easily, right? So I think Bitcoin is a little outest about custodial options that don't

let you withdraw at the minimum and about withdrawing and holding your own keys and actually validating your own transactions without, I think I did that without trusting someone else. So I would say that like, I don't see any reason to say that like. Blockchain is compromise anyway. Maybe not every single user is perfectly like decentralized and holding their own keys. But again, like, perfect can't be

the enemy of progress. You know, we need to accept good enough. And I feel like again, like if you just look at it in the later approach, that's how big pointers are looking at it. And that's the only way that Bitcoin could do it. Like, and I don't even know. I think I think that's a theory is would agree to some degree. Maybe the tradeoffs are

different. Maybe the approaches are different. You know, these things are competing in the open market. Let's see which strategy works better. I think the legacy of this like El Salvadorian news is going to be just like Bitcoin's massive acid tests that it's been asking for census Genesis, right? Like is legal tender in a currency is a legal tender in a nation state. Does the population of

that nation say actually want to use Bitcoin? We're about to find out. Will the lightning network actually work for fast incidents? Microtransactions were about to find out. And so I think this is kind of the pivotal moment in Bitcoin's history is like, okay, it got to where it wanted to be. To finally find out if it is the thing that it is. And I think we're

all about to find that out. Find that out next like 12 to 24 months. Yeah. No, totally. And thank God's a tiny country, right? Yeah. Well, and I think thank God for that. And I also thank God the president is a goddamn Bitcoiner because if the president wasn't a Bitcoiner and this was somebody else, like if it was like, you know, I don't know what the

organization of the nation state of El Salvador is, but like say it was just like a congressman who proposed a bill in the back of Congress. The president controls the congress. Yeah. Yeah. So, so me. Like the other conversation, which I don't really care to get into, is like the character of this individual of the president is like suspects, like, you know, some shady past. But

also Bitcoin doesn't give a fuck. Like Bitcoin just wants to get adopted. Like shady past or not. Like apparently he held Congress. He held Congress up with the military to get a bill passed, not through perhaps the greatest guy, but also Bitcoin doesn't give a fuck, right? Bitcoin got adopted in the country. But yeah, also thank God that the person leading this charge was the actual

president, right? For better or for worst, because that's going to give Bitcoin the greatest chance of success in that country. Yeah. I mean, again, I think it's going to be desperate countries. It's going to be countries with nothing to lose with nothing to gain in the existing system. And that's why they're going to opt out. Right. So I'll solve that. I'll have one of those, you

know, they're at their depth. The dollars failing them. So what better chance that they have. And like, again, I just think the floodgates are opening. Right? Companies, countries, every like legitimacy is compounding. And like if you put this in the idea of like, okay, basketball player or an athlete and then Bitcoin is 12, you know, let's say a theory. And there's what eight now, something like

that. Like six. I think that has been perpetually six. But what are them? Port and 2015? It's 2021. Okay. Boom. So you know better than me. Yeah. So whatever. Here we go. Like, let's see what happens when these networks hit adulthood. Right. You know, 18. 21. Like, I think that people are thinking very keep touching this. People are thinking very small. Right. And I think Bitcoin

is something bigger. But a lot. I really do think Bitcoin is anything bigger. Yeah, totally. And hold all in hold all in hold all. What shit was I was about to say? Uh, yeah. I think the uh, I can't remember. Anyways, let's turn to something slightly different, which is my mental model for like where the line is between Bitcoin and Ethereum. And I've been calling Bitcoin

as this very, very physical crypto network in Ethereum as this very, very digital crypto network, right? Where, you know, Bitcoiners are celebrating Bitcoin getting adopted as a nation state legal tender. They love Bitcoin mining. They love being hooked into the energy grid. Um, Bitcoin or values are very physical values. They want to be a part of the physical meat space world. And that's something that very

much separates Bitcoiners from Ethereum's where Ethereum's it. It would just wouldn't make sense to have ether as like the native currency of a country. That's like not what it's for. Like, Nick Carter called Bitcoin is now being used as its intended purpose as a nation state legal tender. That is whatever the intended purpose of ether is. It's not that, right? Uh, and also we want proof

of stake. We want to be removed from the physical world. So, like, the digital is possible. And so like my mental model for this is that like Bitcoin is playing risk with nation states, right? Like claiming territory. Like Bitcoin just claimed a territory of El Salvador. It's got a, it's got a big army. Uh, now it's going to try and like, like Cold War domino effect.

It's going to go to Costa Rica, Panama, like all the other dollarized countries. And it's going to claim physical nation state after physical nation state if it, if it can, right? Um, but Ethereum is in the clouds. It's like in the heavens. It's in the virtual world. There's no real estate to claim there. There's only real estate to create there. And I think maybe that's where

a lot of the, um, the comparisons between that people will make about how Bitcoin is like zero sum, Bitcoin's competitive, Bitcoin is trying to supplant the old system with a new system, but not create a new system. Just keep the old system just with Bitcoin. But Ethereum is like, let's grow the pie that's, let's make new virtual real estate. And if no one can compete with

Ethereum and creating new real estate, because you can just create it. Like it's just brand new. Um, and that's kind of how I'm seeing like these communities diverge. Uh, you know, Bitcoin is very physical focused. And Ethereum is very virtual focused. How's that land with you? When I just heard is Ethereum is up in the clouds and Bitcoin is actually game. Okay. Well, at the same

time, uh, there was a guy and entrepreneur I was talking to who back in 20, he said he's a back in 1994, 1995. He was entrepreneur. Uh, and he saw the potential of the internet and he saw like, well, there's, there's very, very physical world. And this digital world is very, very small. The discrepancy is like, everyone's going to start flowing into the digital world. Like

the digital world only has more to grow. Right. And I'll, and I'll kind of say that with Ethereum too. Like, the physical world has already kind of hit its limits to growth. Like, there's a, there's a human in every single corner of the popular. Every single corner of the globe. Right. Like, you know, traditional real world finances. Kind of add it to maturity. There's not much

more development and innovation going on there. The real, the uncharted territory, the frontier of the world is in the, is in the, is in the, is in the digital world. The, the virtual world. Like the metaverse. Bitcoin cannot create a metaverse. Only Ethereum can create a metaverse or some sort of smart contract proof of fake platform. And so, you know, well, well, it's nice to have

this very grounded, you know, very concrete. Here's our plan. You know, here's, here's the way it is. Here's central banks, here's nation states. Here's all that same stuff. Let's hot swap the dollar for Bitcoin. Like very concrete, very easy. And the Ethereum is very much like, we don't know what was out there. Let's go find out. And the same way we didn't know what the internet

was going to turn into. No one knew what the internet was in 1994. No one knows what the Ethereum is going to be in 2025 or 2030. But like it's really big is the plan. And so like, yeah, we're heading to clouds. We're very idealistic. We don't know what happens next. We just are placing our bets. We think it's going to be orders of magnitude larger

as the internet was like orders of magnitude larger than, than whatever came before it. Mail. Yeah. I mean, I think the dick points the internet. So the internet of value. I feel like you, and we kind of bickered about this on the last pod that was unreliable. But like, there's nothing that Ethereum can do to take away. The fact that it is a computer network run

on physical servers. Right. So there is a physical network that is part of Ethereum period. So you better fucking just accept that reality. And then that's something you can optimize for. Right. So that's what proof of work does. That's what I mean, keeping the Bitcoin base layer as downloadables possible optimizes for. I think that the metaverse is the self hosting revolution. So Ethereum is doing less

than Bitcoin, maybe not nothing, but less than Bitcoin to stimulate and enable the self hosting revolution. So I just think that it's going to come in waves and layers. And we'll get there. We'll get to your vision. Just it's going to take some more time. And it doesn't have to be on this continuous blockchain. So we'll see, we'll see. Like Bitcoin is the sound money app.

I think of the future. It's the how the internet of values going to be built on servers. The servers need to be distributed to make them as robust as possible. And hopefully we can have a self hosted global web based mesh based type of internet infrastructure to type into that will, you know, reach all the goals that you envision. I just that's I think that that's

how Bitcoin gets to it. You know, you you envision a world where Ethereum is a substrate that you just build everything on top of, which I don't think it can scale to that in the first place. But, you know, I don't think that's going to be a problem. I think it's also necessary to get to this new world. Like I don't think Bitcoin fights on loading

onto the internet. It definitely is not a fighting force on that. It is part of the force to upload onto the internet. I think it actually brings energy and the energy grid online for the first time. Like the energy grid has been only physical. And Bitcoin actually helps it become digital. And that's a huge put that's a huge pro. So on that like physical network topic,

let's toss that out right because you say like, oh, Bitcoin mining is very, very physically instantiated, right? Like if you are mining, you can't pick up an uproot yourself and move very easily. That's a that's an intensive process. With Ethereum. Like, yeah, so I have a I have a computer got a node. I have ETH staking to it. But the ETH isn't physically located and neither

are Bitcoins. But Bitcoin miners are and like ether when proof of sake form is just a virtual ASIC, right? And so maybe like I have my computer is running a node. I'm staking on it. And the FBI comes knocking it says, hey, like turn that note. Well, the ether can just move to a different node. And so the with proof of stake, what infrastructure or what,

you know, chips and hardware and internet bandwidth. What is part of the Ethereum network and what's not part of the Ethereum network can turn on and off at a moment's notice. Just like, it's like routing around, right? Like this computer was a second to go part of the Ethereum network. Now it's not. And then all of a sudden I'm saying it's transient. It's transient, right? It's

it's it's it's route around the problem. And so what is it? While we can talk about how there is a physical network that's instantiated somewhere, it's also super fluid and can just move wherever it needs to move and instantiate itself somewhere at a moment's notice. And if that needs to move again, I'll move again. And so while there is a physical network, there's also not a

physical network at the same time. So long as there's enough like decentralization and nodes and there's self replicability. I mean, yeah, and then we'll see if that network is works well. Propagate 12 is efficient and can send the test of time. But I'm just saying that there is a physical network like this where only digital thing is like, guess what? Everything digital is has a physical

computer enabling it. And you know, those those servers take up energy, they take up space. They are real things. Right. You know, it's more about like being minimally viable instantiated. Well, I mean, you're saying the consensus is fully digital. I get it. I mean, that's cool. Like Bitcoin's consensus is a physical thing. Like a minor is a physical future on Bitcoin. Right. And that's what it

is. And those are different things. They're different tradeoffs. But I'm just saying that there is a physical network that physical network should be optimized can't be moved away from. And that Bitcoin is building a physical network that is going to be as decentralized as possible. And like, I just think your characterizations of like Bitcoin and then the existing network. on like known monetary units. And if

that's possible, what does that mean for the world? Right. That's what Bitcoin has for. Totally totally. I now consider this topic so let's just start. Show me move on. Yeah, I mean, we've been we've been ripping for for many years. So we have no half a minute. Yeah. Okay. We can keep going. We want prices or. Okay. Let's talk about price. Cause like, you know, people

love to price suck. Price talk. 30. I mean, you can see the little ticker up here. Yeah. Looking at 35,000 dollar Bitcoin. Pretty much 36,000 dollar Bitcoin and uh, $2,400 ether. Yeah. We got ether got down to 2,200 something yesterday, uh, which is like pushing on its floor. And Bitcoin is also kind of pushing on its floor. If I'm weighted to say that it's actually the

floor. Like this El Salvadorian news was like the news that Bitcoin needed to like repair its super fucking broken chart. And also to prevent ether from having a chart that breaks, right? Ether charts. Okay. Right now. But like it can't go down anymore. Like it needs to say above 2000. Um, and so like I think this El Salvador news could be the news that stops a

quote unquote bear market from happening and just makes us like range for the rest of the year. That's my take. Yeah. I mean, uh, I'm not the best at price predictions. Uh, with micro strategy. It took about six weeks for there really to be any price action. Um, after, you know, the came public knowledge that micro strategy about Bitcoin. So, um, we're about a week out.

Uh, and he bought another $500 million worth of Bitcoin. He's almost up to a hundred thousand Bitcoin. He's, I think he's 8,000 Bitcoin away from a hundred thousand. I mean, that's, that's chump change for him. So, uh, well, the remaining 8,000 Bitcoin. Oh, yeah. He's probably already gone it by now. We just haven't heard the announcement yet. Yeah. So, I mean, and he's doing these, but

these equity offerings like crazy. Um, yeah. He, I mean, Michael. He's just doing this thing. So, and honestly, I feel like he's, he's calling out other corporates. He's saying, Oh, okay. You're not going to play. I'll just keep buying all the Bitcoins then. Yeah. So, um, to some degree, like, at some point in time, how much debt can you issue? Except the problem is he offered

400 million. He got 1.6 billion in interested orders. And so he raised it to 500 million. Like, apparently there's an in-states feeble amount for debt. I mean, I'm not going to say that. Or, or whatever, or whatever that order is, which is absolutely insane. Clown world and Bitcoin game theory. Like, what else can you say? Yeah. No. I mean, if people are giving them free money,

basically. So, I guess it's smart to take it. Um, at some point in time, though, we do have to ask ourselves at what point is this irresponsible? Like, he has a company like, like, like, like, what happens when Bitcoin, if Bitcoin, I'll give this a 5% chance that Bitcoin breaks down below. $25,000. But like, his average price right now is $25,000. And like, imagine if MicroStriker,

he starts to get in the red, right? And like, especially when people get really fearful about Bitcoin, Bitcoin price. Again, I really don't think that's going to happen to maybe it's not even worth talking about. But at some point in line, at some point, there's a line that's like the irresponsible line. And I don't know where Michael Saylor is. But like, wherever he is, he can

see the line at the very least. Yeah. I don't know. Uh, I think that Bitcoin is the most conservative thing in the world today. Um, obviously my base case is that Bitcoin is sound and the fundamentals are sound in that 21 million will continue to be enforced. And the hash rate will continue to come online. So not everyone has that base case. Um, so if your

base case is different, then you're like, wow, Michael Saylor is really taking on some risks here. Michael Saylor would say that him holding a cash balance has no benefit. Him investing. He hasn't had any cash. Now he only has debt. Yeah, him owning equities is not a benefit. And then the Bitcoin is conservative. So if you know that Bitcoin is conservative and that you can effectively

and anyone who has held Bitcoin for four years, time frame, any four year time frame is in the green. But that has to stop at some point in time. Sure. But I mean, maybe there's only three sets of four years. I would say that like, we are in clown world. We have the first digitally scarce asset ever that's hyper monetizing. And on the flip side of

that, the only thing that is keeping the world afloat is lower rates and more cantalana effects. The one thing here's a, here's a, it's not a black swan, but here's a black swan that I'm actually truly worried about. Woke culture, cancel culture coming for Bitcoin. It's such an easy target. We already saw that happening with all these reporters trying to like cancel Bitcoin and Bitcoin 2021

for having an event where people weren't required to be vaccinated. And they weren't checking like we already saw reporters. Bitcoin's an easy target. Like everyone that didn't get any Bitcoin at all. Anyone who has zero amounts of Bitcoin has to deal with their cognitive distance of having zero amount of Bitcoin. And reporters can cash in on that because they don't have any Bitcoin. And they know

that a lot of the readers don't have any Bitcoin. And so it's really easy to write a story about like Bitcoin energy fund. And you know, Elizabeth Warren says that one Bitcoin transaction consumes as much energy as a household does in 54 days. Like what happens if Joe Biden just like bends over backwards to enable woke culture and doesn't have a spine against Wilk culture. What

happens if Wilk culture takes over America, the far left, right? What happens if that happens? And in a, in a world where woke culture and the far left lead America, I'm actually really bearish on Bitcoin. Because it's such an easy target. Yeah, I would say that that needs to happen for the plebs to fully denounce all respect for any woke culture to leader. That these people

need to be exposed and pain is the best way to expose people. And if America fully goes anti Bitcoin, which I don't think it's it will, I really don't think it will. Despite any woke cultureness. Then America can have fun saying poor. So Bitcoin doesn't need America. Bitcoin's bigger than America in my opinion. I mean, it isn't right now in terms of market cap. But in

my opinion, it will be. And like, you know, America is not there for El Salvador. Right. Bitcoin's there for El Salvador. So I mean, really like I really don't think that America needs, I mean, that Bitcoin needs America and it'll be bad for America. If it did that, I think a lot of politicians already know that. Well, the reason why I bring this up is because

Elizabeth Warren went on that rant. That was just like very much a virtue signaling. I'm anti Bitcoin rant, which a lot of people are speculating is like, oh, she's just pro central bank digital currency. Maybe maybe woke culture isn't the right identifier, something wrong identifier, but it's also like the MMT status crowd, right? That they want you to be poor. Do you think the MMTers are

going to make you prosperous, David? No. No. There. Yeah. So I mean, I don't know like how long is it going to take people like on the other side of things? Like one of the, I put out this tweet the other day about the nature. Like so when countries denounce the dollar, like, the US historically invades that country, like shortly thereafter. And but what's different about

El Salvador, which is to some degree denouncing the dollar, the dollar still legal currency because people still want it, but you know, providing them an option that's Bitcoin is in some ways denouncing the dollar. What's different about like why the US will never invade El Salvador is because and again, apples or oranges comparisons. But if they did in the way that we've seen them invade other

Latin American countries and in the Middle East, the difference is is there's a fuck ton of Bitcoins, Bitcoiners in America, right? Who there's a Bitcoin Bitcoin political party cohort inside of America, who's like going to tell American leadership to fuck off and stop invading El Salvador because of their bags, right? Because of Bitcoin incentives. And so that's what gets me a little bit optimistic about how

like America kind of just can't do anything about it. It's like it's it's the calls coming from inside the house. Like the incentives are inside of the Congress. Yeah, I mean, I think you pointed at the correct things that are happening, which is that people on the inside are buying Bitcoin. They're also buying other crypto currencies and that's going to make these things unstoppable. And Bitcoin,

I'm sorry, if you just I mean, this is my opinion. And I think that this opinion is correct. Like Bitcoin is the most secure, the most legit and most decentralized of these assets. So therefore, it's going to like, I think it's going to continue being the shilling point. Again, you might disagree with me. You might have different characterizations for those words. But that's my opinion. And

again, like I just think the entire space is going to continue to disrupt the existing control sphere. Like I think personal freedoms and personal property rights are being redefined by open source networks. And I really don't think that any of these politicians or any of these organizations are competent enough to outwrap or organize these crypto networks. Bitcoin and like they can't even take down ripple. Like

they can. Like that. If that is the asset test for the government's competency and taking down these things, like they're they've already lost. Yeah. That's a really good point. That's a really good point. Yeah. No, man. I'm bullish Bitcoin. I'm bullish Bitcoin. I still don't know any, but I'm bullish on it. Well, I think like a year ago, you're like, but if you want to get

as much Bitcoin as possible, you should do it. I'm doing. I feel like that worked out. Time that worked out says that that was a correct. That's it. But the thing is like how many people doing what you're doing, right? I'm going to eventually buy Bitcoin. I don't know. I feel like that. Sure. And if Bitcoin is a thing to be bullish on, you eventually want

to have some stake. This is true. This is true. True sign off. Yeah. Absolutely. The CK underscore Snarks and at Bitcoin magazine, if you don't like what we're doing, you can keep tagging me. It's fine. But we're not going to stop. Being the propaganda marketing arm of Bitcoin, we're not official. We don't represent Bitcoin, but we're just going to keep showing it. So proud of that.

And keep your eye out for more conferences, more newsletters, and more articles from Bitcoin magazine. Yeah. Bitcoin 2021 moved the needle a big deal. It went from one side to the other side of the gauge. And so that that's going to be a pretty big event in the history of definitely crypto and also the world. So congrats and props. You can follow me. Trustless State on

Twitter and on bank lists. Thanks, everyone. Goodbye. Yeah. all right.