Laser-Eyes, NFTs, and Crypto-Religions

Welcome everyone to POV Crypto, the only podcast that both big coiners and a theory is listened to. I'm David Hoffman, here with my buddy Christian. Christian, how you doing? You're good men. Life is good. Getting settled in a new place, this will be one of the last shows that you see in this room. So I'm gonna start designing my new studio, which is gonna be fucking

awesome. Can I recommend a background of plants? They're really fantastic for a background. You know, I will have plants, but it's not gonna exactly be your style. So yeah, sorry to the listeners. Well, so long as there's some plants, plants are just the best background. We had to take our legs off. Laser eyes off for the show. So laser eyes are off while we are while

we are live streaming, but you know, they were they were honest. I can go. Yeah. I think it was like on Thursday. I was like, how do you put laser eyes on a fractal? And then Greg, who was one of like the original laser eyes to 100K guys put some laser eyes on me. It was actually fractals of laser eyes. So if you zoom really close

into my Twitter icon, you can see you can see the laser eyes through there. Oh wow. I did not know. I noticed the laser eyes. I didn't know that there was a fractal laser eyes. I'll have to take a look. Dude, we don't just laser eyes here. We fractal laser eyes. Yeah, exactly. So how do this meme come about? Cause I know this meme goes back

to like Nick Carter, but from what I can pretty, I'm pretty sure it goes even further than him. So I mean, there's three memesters in the Bitcoin space, RD, Greg and chair force. And these guys are degenerate memeers. You know, there's some degenerate traders and they're degenerate Bitcoin memeers. And they just started doing hashtag. I think it was as Bitcoin was ripping like 1000K every single

or every two hours or so or a thousand hundred dollars, a thousand dollars every two hours or so. And they just started it and they started DMing people and you know, it was just so easy to signal that you were lost. So I was like, I'm not going to be a big fan of Bitcoin with the laser eyes. I just exploded. And then when Senator Lumbus

put it on Friday morning, like that was next level. There's so many people ripping the laser eyes. Yeah, it's a really even the e-tests, even the e-tests, right? It's such a fantastic meme because like, it shows, it shows like unity and solidarity and just like, it's a massive shelling point. And there's no better way to communicate just like the raw power that is just coming out

of Bitcoin. Then just Bitcoiners having like laser eyes, like there's so much unbridled energy that is coming out of the eyes of all the memesters. I think it's fantastic. Yeah, no, I mean, we are reminded that Bitcoin has a lot of really good memesters on team Bitcoin, which is awesome. I'm a fan. It's very powerful. Like it's very, it's very, very appropriate that the coin that

needs to meme itself into existence has an army of very, very strong memesters. It's like, you literally can't be more bullish. So I mean, like, I've heard things like you posted a few weeks ago. I think it was like the, the ETH BTC reversal moment when you said, I have no BTC. I think that was like right on the tippy top. Was that the top? It

was close. But you know, you said that, you know, how many people were commenting under your tweet saying, have fun staying poor? Like, I mean, that made you bullish. So like, I think you have a nuance view on, you know, the memes and the toxicity on Twitter. Yeah. Yeah, it depends on what meme we're talking about. It's very, very, very bullish that a bunch of Bitcoiners

all just like snap into place and all put laser eyes. And like the magnitude of the snapping into place and stepping into line and all showing consensus in your tweet. So in the end, we're talking about, you know, like, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, I mean, you know, the community, you know, the community with

each other to the point that United States Senator also does it is extremely bullish. It's the one of the most bullish and a congressman. Yeah. And like, there's, at the end of the day, like, these blockchains, these crypto systems. The reason why they are important in my opinion. This is where we might differ is that there's the people behind them that there's a meme going around

in like some eeth eds that we haven't really started shilling. But like, the layers zero to systems, you know, Ethereum Bitcoin, they have their L1, but it's the people that make up these systems. That's the L0. And when, like, as such a wide and distributed set of community members, all just like you in a moment is in a sign of solidarity, a moment of solidarity, I'll

put like laser eyes on on Twitter. I think that's pretty fucking cool. Yeah. So I mean, I want to throw another question at you. Like over the summer, you know, one of your gimmicks on Twitter was that you're slaying frogs like you're going after that. But at the same time, you know, you admit that it is bullish. And okay, you know, any, any, any coin that

was pumped on forechan, went up a lot, link being, you know, the prime example of that. So I mean, what you're like, what's your take on that? Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't specifically slaying frogs. And like, I do have a much more favorable and nuance view. About frogs after that whole debacle. And you're totally right. Like a lot of that same energy. It's the exact same. Like,

of distributed set of participants who all like come to a shelling point and start doing the same things and acting in the same way. The reason why I was going after the frogs, though, was that like, frogs were branded as like this army that pumps coins. And so it could be co-opted, right? And like, the, like, what protects Bitcoin is that you can't co-opt Bitcoiners. Like,

you can't get Bitcoiners to shell your shit coin. Like, you can't do it. You can't, it can't be done. But frogs, you can get frogs to shell your shit coin. Right? And if you make a bunch of frog accounts and then with your frog accounts, you sock puppet them and start talking about your, your coin. Like, you can co-opt that whole energy. Like, Bitcoiners are not

co-optible. Like, they are about Bitcoin. That's what their deal is. But frogs are co-optible. Like, you can, you can try and steer that movement if you put enough energy into the system. So, I mean, where's the lesson here for Ethereum, do you think? Right. So like, I was kind of the one, initially, I was like, people started a couple of years, if you're inserted to put

laser eyes on and I was like, you know, like all the big coiners are doing it. They're all putting red eyes on. Like, if we start doing it, like, they're just going to fucking shit on us for being copy cats and blah, blah, blah, which is exactly what happened. But at some point, like, there was enough Ethereum, like, laser eyes people, where I was like, you

know, the cats out of the bag, like, we're going to fucking do this. And so I started just like fucking taking everyone's anyone that ever, like, commented on my tweet. I would take their profile pictures, slap laser eyes and send it back to them. So at some point, I just completely flipped. And I was like, you know what, we're doing it. Like, there's already enough of

us doing it. So like, let's fucking go balls to the wall with doing it. And at some point, like, I raised this question to Brandon Quidem who poached fun at Ethereum. It's like just a bunch of copycatters and like, you know, big coiners are really good at meme adoption. And the theoreons are just copycatters. And then I quite my question to him is like, how come

when Ethereum is doing it, it's not meme adoption. It's copycatting. Why isn't it meme adoption? And I think, and my claim to him was like, well, in your eyes, it's not meme adoption because you have a bias towards Bitcoin and you view Ethereum as the out group. And like, you know, it's Bitcoin who started it and they were predominantly red and orange laser eyes. And then

Ethereum's came in and they was more blue, blue and purple like laser eyes, but still laser eyes. It's still laser eyes. Let's not connect purple laser eyes to to Ethereum. Okay. Because your boy is is is OG on the purple. Right. So like, there is some some like fluidity between the colors. Right. But like, at some point it's just it's the same meme. It's the same

meme. It's the same. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, so, I mean, I get why big coiners want to dunk on Ethereum. But I would always also say like zoom out like Ethereum is our big winners. It's just a slightly different flavor. And I mean, like, I think it's pretty interesting seeing people like Mark Cuban, Gary V, get in on like the NFT explosion. The DeFi explosion

loss of what's going on in Ethereum. And like, I mean, I think that these people want to flirt with Bitcoin, but it just doesn't make sense to them. Like, I truly think like one of these topics is like, what if Bitcoiners and Ethereum are right, right? Like, right. You know, I think big coiners are right. It's still for me like, I'm not as convinced about like

what's happening in the outside of Bitcoin space, like the longevity of it. But I mean, I can tell you that it's really good at attraction. Like, I'm saying people that wouldn't get Bitcoin in like, and bring them closer in. Yeah. Totally. One of the one of the more of the bold cases for Ethereum is that Ethereum has a lot more service area than Bitcoin does, right?

Smart contracts are service area, right? And one of the service areas that is really being being leveraged right now is NFTs, right? All the people for some reason NFTs like resonate with a lot of people that like cryptocurrency and in currencies and money's like, they don't really care about that, but they care about the NFT and like rare digital art side of things. Like at some

point, like, and this is one of this is like Mark Cuban statement is like why he's bullish ether over Bitcoin as a money is because like all that surface area, you need ether to access all that surface area. And Bitcoin is just Bitcoin. Like, it's just Bitcoin Bitcoin is what Bitcoin is. And that's what it is. And there's not much surface area because the Bitcoin is

literally the reduction of surface area rather than the expansion of it. I mean, like, I think it just that has to do with what you think a blockchain is useful for. I would say that Bitcoin plugs into the existing internet stack really great. And it's the native internet or money of the internet. And obviously has like the dominant store value property of any cryptocurrency. So I

would push back that Mark Cuban kind of gets it. But at the same time, like, in terms of like where certain like token ecosystems live, like, absolutely, it's on the theorem. And like, you know, either whether it's like leverage trading, like without KYC or the NFT thing, like, you know, it's clearly happening on Ethereum. Where has our direction of conversation gone? We went from talking about

memes to talking about surface area and NFTs. I mean, on my list is I have a laser eyes. So we cover that Bitcoin and ETH price, which I think is an interesting conversation. Maybe that's at the end. NFT explosion. And then what if Bitcoiners and ethes are right? Where does the value crew? So I mean, maybe, I don't know, maybe we just go to price and

then we get back and get try to go back and forth on that last point. I don't know. Well, let's keep talking about NFTs. And I want to hear your opinion. And NFT. So like, what's Bitcoiners? I'm assuming the average Bitcoiner opinion about NFTs is like, oh, there, it's a bunch of noise. Like, what's your opinion? So I mean, I have the opinion that altcoin projects

can be very positive for the space and drive a lot of interest ultimately towards Bitcoin. So I feel the same way about NFTs. But like, I posted this on Twitter, like, I think, to, to weeks ago, I was saying like, all caps, all NFTs are trending to zero and Bitcoin terms over a long enough time horizon. And then I retweeted that in all caps saying, every

Picasso is trending to zero and Bitcoin terms on a long enough time horizon. So it's not how I feel about art or NFTs or non-funchable tokens. I think that this is an opportunity to get on the world like fabric of value as it goes through its monetization cycle. So I think there's a time to trade your Bitcoins for some other thing that brings you to light

and it scares. But it's just not right now. See, like, this is, this is kind of my frustration with Bitcoiners. It's like, when I asked them, I was like, well, what do you think about NFTs? The generally 99% of the time the answer is going to be like, well, this is about hard money and they're going to zero and Bitcoin terms. Like, well, I didn't hear

anything about like the potential, like, monetization that it offers creators or like the job opportunities that it offers creators or the uniqueness of like art and digitally native art or the possibilities of the combinations of like patterns and a blockchain and how that can be created into a specific visual form of an NFT. And the creativity that unleashes and how this might be like the access,

the unleashing of a new era of arts. Like I hear none of this. And there's so much more in the conversation. Yet Bitcoiners are always like, well, it's going to zero on Bitcoin terms. And like, well, that's just sure. Like we can talk about how it's hard money. But like, what about the whole other side of the whole thing, which is the NFT side? Like you

had the, this seems to be a complete lack of appreciation. I mean, most Bitcoiners are like, well, I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do that. But literally for going everything in order to accumulate more Bitcoin with that being said, a lot of Bitcoiners do collect NFTs. A lot of Bitcoiners really like rare items. Like I think a lot of Bitcoiners, you know,

are pretty disposed towards collecting. Like a lot of big coiners. I know the CEO of BTC media is a huge collector of my all my brothers. I'm the biggest collector. So like, I definitely think that there's something there. But you got to know who you're talking about, you know, go talk to an oil and gas guy about frickin' election. And I think that's just a matter

of a conversation. And I think there's just an inherent turnoff to people in the Bitcoin community right now, at least the maximalist who don't want to use Ethereum infrastructure. They're turned off by it. So I don't know how that sentiment is going to be. I think that's a very important thing. I don't know how that sentiment is going to change over any period of time. I

have a cryptocurrency and I have an NFT made by a young GGT. I think I gave him two ETH for it when ETH was 200 bucks. So I hope he uses ETH wisely. Yeah. I was going to ask about Tommy. So Tommy is your coworker at Bitcoin magazine or BTC media. I mean, and he makes NFTs on Ethereum and sells them. And I'm assuming some of

that revenue he goes and buys Bitcoin with it. So that kind of makes him a very unique individual. He's kind of doing the thing that I was saying, which is what makes NFTs so cool is it allows people to create art and then make money. And that money can be BTC. And especially if you're a Bitcoiner, you like BTC, right? There seems to be a lack

of conversation or a lack of these types of people around. What does Tommy have to say when he, like, I'm sure he has to deal with his friction. Well, we have to get him on. But I mean, there's a lot of those people. There's a lot of Bitcoin artists that are doing NFTs on ETH, like slightly begrudgingly and a lot of other NFTs are Bitcoin based

and they know very much like Bitcoin oriented. But I mean, absolutely, there's that ecosystem. Just like if you want to leverage straight without KYC, you know, where is it going to be? It's going to be on Ethereum right now. But, you know, you have to separate that from the investment thesis. And yeah, Ethereum can do in enables really cool things right now and is a hub

of markets right now that's undeniable. But again, you can be playing around in this thing. But if you don't recognize that Bitcoin is money in the center of it all, I think you're going to get wrecked. That's just my opinion. Sure. There was somebody tweeted at me, like, there was some like NFT that was minted on rarerable. And I think it was from like coin telegraph

or coin gecko or some of some one of these big companies or big websites minted this like, congratulations 50 $50,000 Bitcoin NFT on Ethereum. And this random Twitter account, Adamine and they're like, yo, trustless state. Like, isn't it super ironic that like Bitcoiners are mincing NFTs on Ethereum? And I'm like, no, no, it's absolutely fantastic. Like, why would that be ironic? Like, this is good tech.

Like, why is there irony here? Like, this is just like ever since the start of POB crypto, I've been on this fucking trains since day one. It's Bitcoin and Ethereum. And then that's where the line is drawn. It's, it's, it's, that's it. And there's a meaningful difference. It hasn't been since day one. But I think it had pretty early on. Pretty early on. I did start

off as a polyblock trainer, but then then it quickly coalesced collapse down into just Bitcoin and Ethereum. I mean, it's been like that for the vast majority of BBOB crypto. Yes. Your, your, your, your shit chaining has was a short stint. Yeah. So you're welcome. Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was your, that was your efforts. That was you injecting into my brain. That was very, very

true. Ethan's, I'm influencing you without even knowing it. Yeah. No, it is very true. It's very true. A lot of the writing and a lot of just like the content I've production I've done. And especially the content production I've done that people in the Ethereum community really, really enjoy. It, it comes back to these conversations on POB crypto that I've had with Christian. Very much so.

I mean, I think that this started, I'm going to cut you off. But you also started off this conversation as like, well, a lot of the theoreons are actually Bitcoiners. I'm like, well, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I mean, like, I mean, I think that POB crypto is the best bloggast in crypto. So in terms of like actually bringing like elite thought and opinions and knowledge

of both communities to one forum that there's literally nothing that compares yet that I've seen. So, again, to the listeners, you're welcome. Yeah. And I get, I get great points from David. I've learned a lot from David. So Bitcoiners, Dunk On David, but you know, he's my boy. He's going to be one of one of the groomsman at my wedding. So he's an Oh, wow, that's

public knowledge. Huh? Cool. We can talk about this. Sure. I can't wait to be shoulder shoulder with any other big corners in the groomsman pot. A groomsman party. Are there any big corners of the groomsman party? I'm not going to dox the rest of the party, but David's going to be there. Oh, well, if you could say yes or no. I mean, mostly people we know,

dude. Oh, so there I'm going to be the only other crypto person is going to be in the theory. And this is going to be great. Yeah. I'm not at the wedding, but in the in the right in the party. Yeah. Yeah. Neater, neater, neater, you big corners. Law. There I go. God damn. Oh, I mean, how do you feel like last week price wise was

like fireworks for Bitcoin, but you did pretty well too. You know, across 2000s broke all time by itself. And then this morning just the Dump. I think this is like the biggest dump that we've had since like the end of DeFi summer. This is like the biggest pain that we've felt for a while. I mean, maybe for altcoins, but for Bitcoin, I feel like we went

from. Yeah, I think you're like 30 something. Now I mean, in January, January was was I was stacking at 30. He on, feeling cute. Oh, yeah, we did go from 42 to 30 still though. We have just gone up so high. Maybe it's just because this is my second bull market. And I'm also a very Zen individual. And I've, I've come to terms with the fact

that like, pain exists. And like as soon as you come to terms with the how pain with how pain exists in crypto markets, then all of a sudden it's not really painful. So like, but I, I have felt zero pain like this entire time. And I am like irresponsibly leveraged at the same time. And so like, there's that weird juxtaposition. And I'm like, I think this

is a good thing. I'm not going to make it. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I don't have a lot of leverage in zero pain. And

like, I've felt like this is absolutely unreal. Where like number just goes up up up up up up. And like, finally, like of today, we finally feel like the first pain that we felt in a while. Anyways, so I mean, how are you managing your leverage, but also like feel uncomfortable because part of like leverage is that if there is a big enough drop, like there

is a liquidation price. Right. Like, are you just like nowhere close to that and you've just been levied long since like 80, 80 bucks. And you're good. Like what's what's the situation? Yeah. Yeah. The last time I took leverage was at $1,040. So like, pretty safe. We're pretty safe here. The there. I do have a pretty high liquidation price because I actually don't hold a lot

of my assets in the actual. It's an AVE. I don't hold all my assets in AVE. So I take leverage, but I don't put it back into AVE just because then that reduces my contract risk. So I have leverage and I have a higher liquidation price, but I have plenty of assets. They're just not in the out of the application. And so I actually did have

to do that this morning where I put my money back a little bit more back into AVE to backstop it. But like still, it's like, you know, like, I'm just going to do this just anyways, but still like I'm fucking fine. Like there's no there's nothing. There's no way that this is how I'm not getting liquidated. It's not going to happen. I've lost my I lost

the most money I've ever lost today by by a long shot. Yeah. Well, I mean, like when you look at a Warren Buffett, you know, he loses billions in one trading day, but it's because he has billions. Right. Yeah. But aren't you like worried about congestion being insane on the Ethereum blockchain when you in a crisis moment, where you need to cover your long? No. No,

I'm not. But I'm privileged because I've been in I've been in crypto for a while. Right. So, A, I'm likely not going to have to do that because I'm smarter because I'm more experienced and be like, I can pay for gas. Yeah. You were talking about you having like three eath and gas or whatever. I'm just like one random wallet. Yeah. Just one random wallet. Yeah.

The my main wallet, the amount of money I've spent on gas is pretty crazy. But like you also have to like when you when you pay for gas when ethos $400, well, then that gas amount that you paid, like, you know, that what that 5x is. Right. And so historically, like all the ether that I've ever spent on gas is pretty fucking insane. Yeah. I mean,

that's kind of what I know how it does. You make sure fees and anything you spent in denoblinated crypto terms get huge. So to something about that, I guess. Just saying that like, you know, while like we love fees, fees are great bullish for Ethereum. At this point in time, the fees are actually at at a level where like we are no longer receiving positive repercussions

of that positive second, second order effects. There's, but there's Ethereum, there's spillover going on to other chains that aren't Ethereum, right. And then there's also the negative press as well. And so like, by an industry is getting a lot of the theorems economic activity because Ethereum isn't able to scale at this present moment. And then like, there's a lot of people very bitter about paying gas

fees. So like, there's spillover that Ethereum isn't capturing. And then there's negative PR that Ethereum is capturing. So like, I'd definitely say, like, we are beyond the part, the, we are well beyond the optimal part of what gas fees can do. Yeah. Well, I mean, you're talking to a big corner. So I could have told you that a long time ago. I mean, the positive spin

here is that this is going to really help later to get developed. So like, what's your take on that? Yeah, dude, like, first off, layer two is here. And this is, this is my mental model for how the L2 works, right. The L2, there's think of a circle. And that's Ethereum, circle just Ethereum. L2 is on the margins and they are growing out of the margins,

right. They're both expanding out into their own L2. And then they're also expanding inwards into Ethereum, right. And so the way that this works is like loop ring, which is a payments and AMM and order book exchange on an L2, which is trying to like, like, take capture some of that and uniswap energy. Like, hey, do you like trading on uniswap? Come trade on use on

loop ring. It's the same thing, but without gas. And so that's kind of expanding inwards into the fold. And the more people that adopt loop ring, the farther it migrates inwards, right. And then there's the outwards migration, which is like, trying to get coin base and Gemini to facilitate deposits directly onto loop ring. That's outwards. And so they're going in both directions. L2 is here. Like,

we already have loop ring. And synthetics is on optimistic rollups. There's a bunch of other apps that are trying to get deployed on optimistic rollups. People are not pricing in uniswap V3 on optimistic rollups. But the point is, it's like, things are on the margins and like, L2 is here and it's marching inwards. But like, it's, there's still just on the margins. Most of Ethereum is

relatively untouched by L2, but they are here. You just have to go to them. Like, you can wait for them to come to you. So long as you're okay with paying gas fees before then, before I actually get to you. But like, they are coming. They're marching inwards. And that's my mental model. Yeah. I mean, make sense. You could zoom that model out and just say,

that's how Bitcoin works with individuals and with countries. It kind of integrates at the margin. It integrates in your life at the margin. So, what you need it and it integrates into societies that aren't being served. So, I mean, I think that you can use a lot of those kind of fractal images and thinking about how these things work and overlay it over anything in crypto.

How do you feel about the UD thesis? Right? You know, there's a, like, Ethereum doesn't actually have a moat that all it's like the thin protocol thesis that all of these apps are worth of value. They can go multi-chain. They're going to go to the chain that offers the combination of censorship resistance and permissionlessness and speed that suits what their use cases. And the finding chain

is a perfect example of that. I think Sam Bankman freed from FTX. He said that that's why he's doing Solana and all that stuff. So, yeah, what's just about there? Yeah. So we just actually today on the Bankless podcast, we came out with three apps. Builders who are building their apps on L2. And this was the same fucking narrative back in 2017. That was, this was

like the EOS narrative. We're like, oh, yeah, we're an EVM fork. You can just deploy your shit on our chain. And then you can just port over, right? And, and so like the, the, who was it? It was synthetics that actually did start to build stuff on EOS. And then when they tried to go into the community and tried to ask questions, they got crickets. This

is an almost, almost line word for word what they were saying, right? You need to look, the M zero is people. You need to be where the people are. And that's why people are paying $50 per uniswap transactions to get in, right? Because there's demand for being on Ethereum. Like, there aren't, there aren't any other L1s because there aren't any other L0s because the only L0s

there are are the Ethereum and the Bitcoiners, right? There are no Binance chain, there's no Binance chain community. There's no Binance chain podcast. There's no Binance chain like marketing company related like Bitcoin magazine for Binance. That doesn't exist. There aren't any Binance chain like zealots like no, same thing with Salana. Like there aren't, there are, there are crickets there. There's nothing over there. It's not happening.

I mean, yeah, I guess, and I do agree that the community is big and the people make a huge part and Bitcoiners have done a huge thing for Bitcoin, right? But ultimately, like community isn't scalable. Like what scalable is running full nodes and, you know, having skin in the game. And, you know, I just think that, you know, I, I can see a world where, you

know, what, just the majority of people want to, you know, hold their value in a unit that they understand and they don't give it ish on what platform they actually transact in or leverage apps on. So I mean, I don't know if that's going to be a theory. I don't know what the future holds, but like I don't really subscribe to this idea that like, you

know, it boils down to this community of people. Like that's not, it's just like a, that's a utopian thing. And I just, you know, I as much as I love the Bitcoin community as much as I understand how much they are part of it. Like the Bitcoin community that I interact with is only a tiny percentage of people that are actually using Bitcoin. And I don't

know what the fuck that other people are like. Like I do know that they, you know, they have value and Bitcoin, but that's all I know really. I think I think there's two differences with Bitcoiners and Ethereum is with this whole like M zero metaphor where because Bitcoin was able to calcify sooner in its lifetime as on the L one, then it was able to shed

that M zero protective layer sooner. And Ethereum doesn't have didn't have that that privilege that that to be able to do that, right? And so it needs its protective shield of an M zero longer than it does, then Bitcoin does. Also, this is going back to the whole service area metaphor, like NFTs offer a capacity for people to become part of the M zero. Just like

defi apps and builders and developers. The fact that like Ethereum's want developers developers developers and Bitcoin development on the L one is generally calcified. Like that's a more M zero. So if you're an overall just has a larger M zero capacity, which I think will make the whole like M zero conversation relevant to Ethereum for a longer time. But the overall trend is the same where

like the ultimately like the M zero. I was here. Yes. L zero. The you're talking about M one M two. You're thinking money. That is yeah. That is right. The the the meme layer of people will be more relevant for Ethereum for a longer time than Bitcoin is. But at the end of the day, like Bitcoin wouldn't have been a thing in the first place without

its M zero L zero, right without its people. Like Bitcoin wasn't anything until the people came, right? And then protected it, right? And I just don't see that happening anywhere. Yeah, maybe I have a more totalitarian view. But I think this is obviously like your end of the Ethereum and you are working towards this unfinished project. Like Vitalik said on the bankless podcast, right? Like I

view it as like we are pawns doing Bitcoin's bidding. We're just playing the game now. Like so I maybe that maybe that's a distinction into how we kind of view the world and how it's different. I definitely that is like the cooler view, right? Where like Bitcoin is a straight up God and we are just like succumb to the fate of this guy. God, right? I

do think that Ethereum falls into that same category where there is this like long term vision and ethos and energy about Ethereum, where there is this Ethereum God that is trying to use us as ponds. And that's always why like even though there is like centralized organization behind like Danny Ryan and like Tim Beko and Vitalik, like even though there are these individual people that are

more than ponds, right? Maybe they're rooks, maybe they're queens. But there's still doing the bidding of this this God and the God is determined by the values that we all as a collective human group of humans want to just bestow upon this world through this thing called Ethereum, right? And so there is this like Ethereum God that is making the moves playing the field. And that's

just trying to get people to execute on the vision and values that is Ethereum. Okay, prove of Vitalik. No, I take it back. I just think etheds are cultists. All right, I don't know which one you want me to respond to. Now, just kidding, because you definitely sounded like ethos and religion in that. These things are religions. They are absolutely. You don't fight that. No. I

mean, I won't take that metaphor all the way to the very end, but like it's valid. If someone calls you a high priest of Ethereum, would you like compliment? How do you how do you feel about that? Compliment. I mean, calling you a high priest of anything is kind of a compliment, but it's also backhanded in this world where like what uses religion then because religion

is demonized. What is here is a high priest of Bitcoin. He's the biggest. I like the I like the religious metaphor. I think a religion is kind of like an operating system for like your life. And I think that Bitcoin's an operating system for the world. So like I'm not I like the religion bed for but I think at the same time, like it's just like

saying, it's like a capitalism. It's like it's like a tainted word in society today. Like what can you talk about that? Like what is why do you find the idea of a religion endearing for Ethereum? Right. So like we do need to shed the baggage of religion, right? Like this isn't like fundamental Christianity or Catholicism or Judaism. Right. This is a new age religion. But like

where I see religion like in this and these new frames is more aligned with purpose and meaning and long term thinking, right? There is meaning in what we are doing here. There's there is values which are should be a code to live by that we can create a system that helps us live by those those that code, right? That's a theory. Like the code of Ethereum

and Bitcoin on the white paper of Bitcoin and like the what do you the Bitcoin white paper and then the actual image of the Bitcoin. So that's the implementation of the code. That's the Bible. Yeah. Like the white paper of Ethereum. Like that's the Bible. We these are sacred texts and the reason why they're sacred is because they offer us a way to live our lives.

And that this specifically the way to live our lives is guided by a certain set of guiding principles and values, which some people communicate using their their public forums, their podcasts like Pierre does like I try and do on bank list and on POV crypto. Talk about these good the good values that these things can bring to the world when we say, but I think you've

tweeted this Bitcoin is good. Right. Ethereum is good. That's a religious statement. That's a religion. While I don't disagree that like the white paper is like kind of sacred text. I don't think that that white paper actually has anything that any Bitcoin needs like you don't have in my mind. You don't have to read the white paper and to get like to be on the Bitcoin's

rules. I think 21 million is Bitcoin's rules. I have to read the Bible because I sure sure, but like you don't even have to go to you don't you literally don't need to do anything. You just need to, you know, measure your value and think in in stats. That's all you need to be on the Bitcoin code. Right. And like there's tons of like influences that

Christianity has on all of our lives is as people that live in America like weddings. That's a Christian thing. That's Christian. There's there's a ton of other things that I think that's like a human thing. Yeah, that's that's possibly true. But like also what it's it's a human thing because it's one it's almost one in the same, right? Like bless you. That's a really religious thing.

Like religion has baked into our lives through every single porous hole. Like and if I had thought about this a little bit more I would be able to come up with like 20 more examples of all these things that we do that are because of religion. Yeah, every holiday like ritual ceremonies, like gatherings, like whatever. It's all religious holidays are better worse than status holidays. Better,kay,

I just pull that out of my ass. Except except for the day, yeah, kind of except for Except for 4's day fuck President's Day. And the holiday that we do need is the day off to go vote. That should be a ritual. Anyways, Yeah. Alright, I think director. I'll do around 30 minutes of a week. Okay. Okay. Perfect, okay. Now have a look at each other

again, so I'm gonna be portrayal that do a good thing or something. Thanks. But now I'm gonna say good bye for your songs again. Yeah, yeah yeah, baby. Cool thing, colleagues talk about you well then. Yes. It's just. Hey Franz,Hi. Hey, Shanu chickar You can vote with your feet with Bitcoin. Yeah, let's drop this one up. Robbin it up. Alright. Yeah, follow the podcast at POV

CryptoPod. You can follow me at Trustless Date, both on Twitter and on bankless Christian. Yeah, you guys can find me at CK underscore snarks and at Bitcoin magazine. And if you're a Peter McCormick fan or hater, you can catch me on what Bitcoin did with Robert Breedlove that drop last Tuesday. It's been a great show. So, um, let's go have not seen that one. I'm gonna

go. I'm gonna go listen to that right now while I cook my dinner. There you go. You making a steak. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's go. Oh, here's very bougie diet. Dude, bless it. Bless it. That's the diet we need. Alright. Yeah. We'll see.