Debating DeFi Season and the Center of Crypto

Welcome everyone to a POV crypto the only podcast that both bit corners and Ethereum is listened to. I'm David Hoffman here with my buddy Christian Christian how you doing? Doing good man. This is episode two of 2021 and I feel like this should be season two of POV crypto because it's just gonna be a little bit different than season one. What do you think of that?

Plus we're also coming around like full circle to the roughly the Genesis time of POV crypto in the last bull market and the last bull cycle. I feel like we've we're coming up on like a full complete, you know loop. And so that makes sense. You know POV crypto is now two years old in the crypto and crypto market terms. Two years. Yeah absolutely. And if

you think about it by the end of this year we will have been talking about Bitcoin and crypto and Ethereum for four years. Yeah. Yeah that's that's a lot of time. That's so much time. Because Bitcoin's only 12 years old and Ethereum is only six years as old. It's pretty crazy to think that we've been in the crypto space for the majority of Ethereum's lifespan. Yeah

I mean. In a while it'll be a majority of both of these networks life. So like to not get out of it once you go in. This is a one way function once you go in. It's over. God can you imagine what it's going to be like from these things are like 70 years old Jesus. We're going to be the grandpa's telling about the Genesis like

the Genesis cycles of these entire public networks. That's pretty cool. Well the cool thing it's all going to be recorded. So the world is going to know everything we got right and everything we got. Yeah that's a cool thing about these public blockchains is that they are just like archaeological records of transactions. But then they also have like the most rich content ecosystems to go along

with every single like market movement that's layered into the actual blockchain. You can actually go back and listen to podcasts that were happening around the time of certain price movements. That's going to be a really interesting. Do you think I don't even know if anything if people are going to give that many folks about the culture in which these public blockchains got. Bootstrap by but like

the first 10, 10, 15, 20 years of Bitcoin and Ethereum history. They have like logged in podcasts and writing and then they also have the archaeological record. I think that's pretty interesting. Well yeah. They're founded in the world of documenting everything in the internet world. So yeah. You know I keep like thinking back to this analogy that is stuck in my head is like a old

religion and a like orthodox religion. Typically has some sort of like hand over shoulder passing down of the scripture and way from like the elder to like the next priest and stuff like that. And like that's kind of like a blockchain. And if you think about it Bitcoin and any other blockchain that kind of like stands the test of time is like a way better way

of doing that. It's so much cleaner. Like you can't debate about like the scripture of Bitcoin. Like it's literally in the world. It's in there. It's in it's in scribe into the blockchain. It's inevitable. You can go all the way to the Genesis block. You know every like you you must do that in order to actually use it. So I can't get over that analogy. That's

an interesting interesting perspective because like we have the Genesis of recorded history, right. But that's the Genesis of interpretive recorded history, right. Because not only do we have to interpret it, but we also have to interpret the interpretive. We're who's recording history, right. So the recorder has a bias. And then they write a book, and then we call that thing the Bible, and then we interpret

it in so many different ways. With things like Bitcoin and Ethereum, the public ledgers. There's there's no bias on behalf of the scribe, right. This scribe, the blockchain is truth. And there's only interpretations of that truth. And so you kind of back to Genesis. And you can go back to Genesis. Yeah. That's a really interesting take. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's incredibly interesting. It's incredibly powerful.

Like it's a tool we've never had before of like going back in time and history and knowing exactly what was meant, not necessarily like having to, you know, predict or word of mouth or whatever. That I thought we were going to start off this episode talking about prices and 10x gains, but turns out we're going in the complete opposite direction. We're talking about like metaphysical philosophy

of public blockchains. Well, this is why POV crypto is the best podcast out there. But that is absolutely the truth. Let's, let's hard pivot to Bitcoin prices and crypto prices. I mean, because we can do both. We're flexible like that. Absolutely. I mean, right before we got on this, I was just like scrolling through Twitter. And every single trader is just like posting moon graphics and

like saying things like, eat all the way. Eat this, changing minds. This is the most crowded trade in history, blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, wow, I guess, eat this going to moon tonight. Who would have thunk it? Who would have fun? Yeah. No, well, this is, I wrote a post in bank list. I think last week or maybe the week before titled fundamentals are

out. Reflexivity is in. And at some point, like, especially when retail comes into the market and especially when things break previous, previous all time highs, like, there's no, when you're going to the moon, there's no foundation there. You're just drifting off in space. And so when, when you break an all time high, like Bitcoin did, like, the after as soon as you break all time, Hi,

people have to ask themselves, like, what is this worth? And no one knows the answer to that question. And so they just start fucking buying. And at some point, that's like going to be true for all tokens, like, DeFi summer is when like all fundamental all fundamentals, like go up door and and it only matters with that, you know, for ETH right now, I think the

trade is obvious because like Bitcoin just too exed. And it's all time high. And then people are coming into this market, be like, okay, like the Bitcoin attention grabs the headlines, you know, it goes everywhere. People and then people come in and then they want that experience, but they know they can't go to Bitcoin to get it because it just happened to Bitcoin. And so they

just go down the list. Like the next thing is either ether is still like 40% below it's all time high. So they're like, well, there's the obvious trade. Like it's just going to do it next. Yeah, no, I make makes complete sense. And I've been seeing it all over Twitter. I've been seeing it all over the media. This idea like, okay, Bitcoin topped. Like this is

the top of Bitcoin. Like that is the set to my outside of kind of like the Bitcoin maximalist and the people that are thinking like Bitcoin bull cycle, which would span out a lot longer and go a lot higher and a lot further away from Bitcoin's mean. So yeah, I think what you're saying is completely true. And we're going to talk about that. We're going to

talk about it more, but your your defi season article, I think, had some extremely just good points about the market and the reality of the market. So kudos to, to, you know, that is as well as. Yeah. Cheers. Thank you. What were we're about that post you want to start? I'm going to start with the answer. You know, swap. Well, let's actually not get into the

post and let's talk. I want to talk a little bit more. We can finish up with that. But I guess like what are you seeing right now? Like it feels as though a lot of blue chip deep by stuff is starting to move a lot. Polka dot moved a lot like, you know, the coins are moving. Uh-huh. Coins are moving. Yeah. The analogy that I've been

using is that like we are at like second 45 to like minute one of like the three minute popcorn bag. Right. Now, as around one minute things are really starting to pop. Like people are people are making some gains. People are rotating some gains. Like things are really heating up. Um, and then you obviously don't want to stay all the way till three minutes. No one

leaves their popcorn in the microwave all the way till three minutes. Only a crazy person does that. So like the optimum time to pull out your popcorn is like two and a half minutes. And I think we're at like one minute on the three minute popcorn bag. Um, you're totally right. Like a lot of D five blue chips are kind of where that I'm watching S

and X just absolutely moon itself right now. Um, just past $16. Yeah, things things are heating up. And it's just, and like going back to that same conversation. I remember talking about SNX. I remember TLS and X. I remember TLS. I remember going back to the $2.S and X. Yeah. So I think you can go on the show. Can go on the show at like $4.S.

Yeah, it was very three to $4.S and X. I mean, you're the swap even you're the swap. You're the swap said $9.20. It bottomed out in the middle of like the D five bear market post summer like two and a half dollars. It's already like three or four or four or five X since then. That's crazy. Um, so people have been making some money. Yeah, people

that make money in the stock market are making money in crypto. Yeah. They're having a lot of fun picking, picking and choosing their favorite coin on Coinbase. That's exactly right. People just like look at the tickers and they're like, I like that ticker. And then they buy it. And then there's like a 66% chance that they make a decent amount of money. And they're like, Oh,

this is fun. And they just start shooting from the fucking hip. Just pouring more money into it. And that's how this whole thing starts. Yeah. I saw someone like make a post of like the top companies in crypto and they're pretty much all exchanges. Like almost every single one. Like, I'm like the like in terms of like the top companies in terms of like the market

cap of the company and value of equity. Yeah. All exchanges. Right. So that's like, yeah, it's like, yeah, this is, uh, this is how you make money in space. So that's why I'm kind of long on, I'm a unit on Uniswap specifically, just because of the Coinbase IPO trade. Like the contrast between Coinbase going, doing this IPO. And I think it's going to IPO at like

well above $100 billion. Like totally the crypto mania is just going to give massive tailwinds to Coinbase. Absolutely. And then Uniswap is the defy correlate to Coinbase. And so defy, I think, is going to be the branded alt season ecosystem. Like that's where alt seasons going to happen. And it's going to happen on Uniswap. Meanwhile, in the legacy world Coinbase is IPO. And it's going to

be a $100 billion. And Uniswap is this $2 billion market cap defy token that has the branding that everyone wants. I think it's the easiest trade in the world. Yeah. I mean, I saw like, I saw people really shit talking, uh, the fundamentals of the coin, but fundamentals don't even. That's what I said. Like, we fuck if it is in fundamentals or out. It does not

matter. We can argue about fundamentals in the next bear market. Yeah. Yeah. And we talked about this last episode. Like the bull market like no one's fighting everyone. So it's not just watching number go up. So. That's exactly right. It's good times. It is good times. Okay. So let's go a little bit deeper into this because I would say there's a lot of truth in this

article. Um, you know, I have my specie Livshitcoin bag bags out there. And when I look at them like none of them are not Ethereum based. Like I have, I, I guess I have a little bit of like Tesos. That sounds good to say. That does not gross the his crystal here. What are we should do? You should share screen of the image in the article.

I can't share screen because you have it locked. But like, uh, this article is, I think summarized pretty. Okay. Cool. Okay. This is, this is the article in a picture, right? So like 2017, we got Binance. By Binance was the altcoin. Cause he know, then there was EOS XRP Bitcoin cash, you know, NEM, Tezos, stellar BNB coin. Like you can stop. You don't have to name.

You know, a lot of new people don't, don't know these things. Yeah. Like a lot of people don't know Neo or Iota, right. Aion. And then Neo is not coming back. Uh, and then in 2021, instead of Binance, the new altcoin casino, which is now the DeFi token casino is Uniswap and you can get any asset listed on a view on a swap on top of

Uniswap, right? And like, that was, uh, Binance is big commissionative advantage. Yeah. It's the permission list Binance. It's the truly permissionless Binance. Binance was trying to have like pseudo permissionlessness by not having KYC and allowing anyone sign up and then also being pretty free on the assets they were listing. Like, that's why Binance did will. It had like pseudo permissionlessness, but Uniswap has full permissionlessness. And

so it's going to be hot. Yeah. Uh, I mean, I can't argue with that. I think that permissionlessness is one of the key innovations here. Absolutely. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I also don't think any other major L1 blockchain is going to ship. Like, what else is there to do? Okay. Well, I guess, uh, I really don't know. I don't know any of that stuff because I don't

care. Well, maybe, maybe that's my bias. Um, is that I also don't care. And so I'm not paying attention to any other L1 blockchain, but I think it's pretty safe bet. Like, I can barely care about stuff that's not Bitcoin. It's really fucking hard. Like, I, when I don't talk to David, I feel out of touch. I truly do about a theorem. You mean, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like what we're doing a lot of shows, I'm like, I know my shit. Like, come on. Eat heads. I'm like, okay. Oh, it's kind of funny. Um, yeah. Um, I would say that I mean, obviously Bitcoin's easier to like stay up to date with because there's no development on the L1 and there's no app layer. I mean, it's different. Yeah.

Sure. But I wouldn't say that there's no development on the app layer or sorry, on the, uh, on the L1, like the most recent Bitcoin core release, um, enabled a lot of stuff within using Bitcoin core as a wallet. And now there's, uh, like for the first time, you can use Bitcoin core for consensus. And then nothing else about the wallet. So it really, like, we're

starting to modularize Bitcoin and it's starting to make it a lot easier to like actually interact with it and like use consensus and build other stuff without having to, you know, deal with all the constraints of like the Bitcoin core wallet and stuff like that. It's just different than a theory. Yeah. Like, I feel like people in a theorem, it's just high flying, like innovation, where

it's like Bitcoin, it's like, we're doing this thing. How do we do this? One thing better. And it's like, how do we innovate at getting, sure, it polishing Bitcoin, but like Bitcoin's turning into a really fucking sharp sphere. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. None of Bitcoin's features enables speculating and shit coins, though, except for selling it. Yeah. I mean, dude, I mean, people like

to talk about shit coins. No, totally. And it's funny because like Bitcoiners hate shit coins, but everyone else loves tokens. Like that's like that's one of the things that people love about. The tokens. Um, and I feel like Ethereum is really important. Like all of the speculation energy is all in Ethereum. All like all like the long tail of speculation outside of like straight speculating on

Bitcoin is literally all happening on Ethereum. I think that's pretty fucking pretty. Yeah. And even some of speculating on Bitcoin is also happening on Ethereum too. Like it's just like, to me, it's the same argument that Bitcoiners would give about like volatility in Bitcoin's. And like Bitcoin's still volatile now, but obviously much less less so it's like the profitability is the bootstrapping mechanism. And so like,

it's defy speculation is the bootstrapping mechanism for defy. And the same way that Bitcoin and its volatility to the upside is also its bootstrapping mechanism. Um, and so, you know, people, Bitcoiners will hop on defy tokens being like, you know, this is, they aren't really decentralized. They aren't really this. They aren't really that they have all these problems. It's just like a shit coin casino. And

like, sure, there were a lot of things that I'm going to do. Right. But like the defy tokens are still going to go to like a billion dollar in valuation. And then they're going to provide a fuck ton of funding to solve all the problems that that Bitcoiners are totally right about. I mean, I don't know about necessarily solve all the problems, but it will do

all the price stuff that you just mentioned. Well, I mean, you can imagine there's not very many problems in the world that you can't throw enough money yet to solve. That's a pretty fiat-minded way to think about things. Go on. I just like, I feel like that's the, that's the old paradigm is throw money at stuff. And just, hey, there's these specific things. We're going to

fund and we're going to fund these things and make sure that, you know, what the money is going to carry us. We're going to have the best engineers and who cares. But guess what? Like, that was the mentality for how to get into flight. And like everything that the government funded, you can look up these stories about the right brothers and who they're competing against failed.

And it was these two just like small innovators that actually succeeded. Not to say that I don't want to make direct comparisons. I'm sure you could say argue how Ethereum is the small innovative core group. But I just think that throwing money at problems doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be solved. And that's what we're going there. But we weren't pretty much answering on most things. Well,

I still agree with that because like I expect, you know, just like in the ICO, Mania, like there were 10,000 ICOs and then maybe like seven of them did things. And the DeFi token Mania is going to do the same thing. Like wait. Too much stuff is going to be way too highly evaluated, evaluated. But then, you know, there's going to consolidate. And it's ultimately going

to fix some of the problems that some of the DeFi tokens offer promises solve. And then many will die. The problems aren't I agree that the problems aren't guaranteed to be solved. But the problems that can be solved will be solved. And then we offer foundation scaffolding for the next DeFi Mania, right? The next Ethereum growth phase. So, I now remember what I was going to

say. I really agree with dear statement that I really agree with your statement that like the profitability on DeFi is is a bootstrapping mechanism for Ethereum. And like if you ignore Ethereum's network effects, I feel like you're just not being honest, right? Like you have to be honest. Personally, I'm like fearful. I think that like E2 is a network effects killer. And like potentially like, you

know, a lot of the stuff that the Ethereum community is doing is like equivalent of a Byzantine general attack on Ethereum one, which is what has like the momentum right now. But at the same time, I'm a bit quiner who would have told Ethereum to stop doing what they're doing years ago. And we've never got to this point yet. So what the fuck do I know?

Like at some point you got to like understand your circle of competence and just shut the fuck up. What I'm not going to be realizing is that Ethereum's really know a lot about Ethereum and Bitcoin is really know a lot about Bitcoin. And most parties don't really know very much about either the other thing. And like I think that 2020 proved both right. I would I

would 100% agree with that. If you like a 2020 and you don't say that Bitcoin is really fucking right, then like you're not being honest. But at the same time, if you look at 2020, and you would say that you're really fucking right. You're just not being honest. Yeah. And I think with the important distinction that like most other blockchains were wrong. EOS wrong. You know,

Tron was never even right to begin with. Right. You know, Bitcoin cash wrong. Bitcoin gold wrong. Any other Ethereum killer, the only other Ethereum killer that hasn't yet been proven wrong is dot. And then I don't even, we can't, it's way too early to say that they've been proven right. Crote unquote, quote, unquote, right. Whatever right even means. But like, there's only, and that, you'll know

when you see it. You'll know when you see it. And I think you'll, yeah, you'll know when you see it. Like it, and I think it is money. Yeah, definitely, definitely don't see it and dot as soon as dot achieves a monetary premium. I think that is it. Right. Like, eth has a monetary premium Bitcoin has a monetary premium. And I think that that's kind of

the whole point of this industry. Obviously, this is a crypto economic revolution. It's in it. Let's talk about that. So I remember a big theme of previous P.o.v. crypto pods was you trying to convince me and the listeners that this is a monetary revolution. And like what most people don't realize about cryptocurrency is it's actually about the money, not about the technology. And I, well, I

partly agree with that, but it's also about the technology too. Like it's a cryptocurrency industry. Like there's, it's one part tech cryptography and one part money. And you have to maximize both aspects to get the best value out of your chain. How do you feel about that take? But I don't want to dive down that rabbit hole. Super, super hard. Got it. Oh, I have a

good, but here, here's something. Here's a good kind of. Here's a good mental model or or or a way of thinking of if something is money, right? A measure of how, like, money, something is you should look at how many people vehemently hate it, but still use it. So if you like, if you want to measure money in space on that, then there's very few things

I actually have money. The dollar is money because like China fucking hates it. Russia fucking hates it. It's still not fucking use it. That's interesting. Bitcoin is money. It seems as though Ethereum is money because like I fucking hate Ethereum. I mean, I don't fucking hate it. But you know, I'm saying like, I don't want to fucking hold Ethereum. But here I am. If I want

to speculate on these shit coins, like, here I go. So I mean, like, if you really want, like, in there's, I'm sure there's like, you can't. You can scale this in different directions. And if you can zoom out and see like, from a macro perspective, how much something is money, but, you know, I've kind of been trying to think of it that way. And very few

things are money. Like the year was not money. If you think about that way, like, unless you're geographically bound in the year of territory, like the year is not money. Yeah. Definitely not global money. I definitely agree with that as a signal when it's present. But I still think there's the possibility that there is like, shouldn't the ideal money be the asset that everyone wants to

use as money? Like money, I don't think baked into the definition of what money is, is the law that every that some portion of the people must hate it. So there could be a version of money that everyone just enjoys using. And no one actually has like a bias against it. I think that's still within the realm of possibility. Well, I mean, I would say that

every government that wants monetary sovereignty would hate something that takes it away. So like all of them want to constrain gold because gold itself is like kind of, if it were to work, it could theoretically kind of play as a balancing act or a side, you know, kind of like something that tethers, that tethers the country's monetary sovereignty. So, you know, if a country was forced

to hold Bitcoin despite obviously being stripped a lot of their monetary sovereignty because of its existence, like that would demonstrate extreme moneyness in my opinion. Yeah, but then you're just, backing up into everyone's going to be jealous of the ability to issue seniorage. And so like, everyone, everyone hates the fact that they don't have that ability. And so these are knowledgeable insiders have also benefited from

printing in the DeFi ecosystem. I would agree with that, TAKE. It's kind of not really seniorage though. I guess, I mean, you can classify as seniors though, but I think that's a functionally wrong definition because these DeFi tokens aren't money. They're DeFi tokens. Sure, whatever, but it's benefiting from printing. I mean, you would, I could say that. You know, if you have the privilege of IPO-ing,

then you benefit from printing. Yeah, then yes, indeed. Okay, the cool thing about DeFi tokens is that everyone can benefit from the issuance, right? Like that is the categorical difference. And I'm writing about this in an article coming out on Bigglet's On Thursday. Is that like, there's two ways to solve the seniorage problem. You either delete it with what Bitcoin did or you harness it and

like Robin Hood it, which is give it to everyone, which is what Ethereum is trying to do. And really the whole like six year long process and research and development of Ethereum 2.0 was actually trying to solve this problem. Well, this problem and one more problems. There's two problems. Ethereum 2.0 was trying to solve. Access to ability to write to the blockchain and then access to

the ability to have consensus participation in the blockchain and therefore receive ether issuance. Like that, that has been like proof of stake and BLS signatures, which are like the main innovation going into E2, are about increasing the amount of seniorage that ethers Ethereum is able to be issued to the most amount of people. Well, Ethereum is Robin Hooding it. Distributing seniorage or distributing assets or funds

is one of the hardest things to do. Yes, agreed. So it's extremely hard. I think your analysis is accurate. Ish in terms of the distinctions between Bitcoin and Ethereum. I don't necessarily, I just don't know enough about eth too and economics and like how that solves it at all. I mean, I too am writing an article. It's actually it's been written and it's going through the

editorial process, but it's going out on Friday called cancel on effect 2.0 and talking about like how many has ever been fair and how Bitcoin kind of turns the cancel on effect on a Ted. And I'm sure that you could argue in a future Bitcoin world that future token is going to be a lot more wow the ett by LTC curve. What did that come from?

What can't a lot 2.0 or have a token. No, both. No, everyone haven't token was Andreas. I guess that's that's can't a lot in 2.0. How did you like for come to formulate those ideas? Because that's fucking awesome. Well, co co written with Dennis saw it. But he wrote an article on Bitcoin magazine about why Bitcoiners were right and in that article I was inspired and

we kind of went back and forth and he said can't a lot of affect 2.0 and I said, yeah, we should raise something. So interesting. Interesting. That's come out. Friday. So I'm going to definitely read that. My mind went to because what you're saying is like if everyone meant to token, then the token that ether as the token that would theoretically capture all the tokens that

other people meant and gas fees and transaction fees in the IP 1559 is able to sustain itself via issuance where and then also all the all the all the Ethereum argument ethereum arguments would be that well, you know, it's great that you have a easy solution to the senior seniorage problem where you just delete the problem when you don't have seniorage. But then you're also losing

the ability to fund yourself at the same time. And so like will Bitcoin be able to capture enough value to sustain itself without the ability to print itself is an unknown question in my mind. I mean that's a I feel like I'm going to be able to do that. So like that's definitely a altcoin or constant skepticism like I would say this is. Well, I guess

so. But like specifically the Ethereum monetary policy is in avoidance of this problem. Right. Yeah. Well, yeah, you guys have hinged a lot on this assumption about Bitcoin. Well, I mean, I don't think it's hinged on that being on it. It's not hinged on Bitcoin by any means. Is that. Ethereum as a protocol needs to ensure its security above all because of it needs to host

all the tokens has a host all the tokens. So it needs to maintain security over monetary policy. You know, I just don't know enough about security to continue talking about it. But ultimately, these are different things and Bitcoin exists. So why can't they do something different? You know, if anything, if Ethereum just kept trying to do a Bitcoin data, look more like like coin, which. Right.

And that would be done. Everyone. No one paying attention to that other than maybe the unit bias idiots. Right. And I always just see like this consistent like duality between Bitcoin and Ethereum, right. There's proof of stake and there's proof of work. There is, you know, expressivity or like reductiveness. There's. There's a deal deleting the seniorage. So no one can have it or giving the seniorage

to everyone. So everyone can have it. And there's really like so many of these things that only seem to be two options. And that's when even when we started this podcast, like it was the Bitcoin versus Ethereum podcast because we believe I believe I don't think you were convinced about Bitcoin Ethereum at that point. But that there would be these. These were the only two block.

Actually, I think that was a conclusion that you could have come to out of the end of 2017, the start of 2018. I think you it was rational to have come to that conclusion by at that point. I mean, I'm. I'm not necessarily willing to hand it to Ethereum quite yet, but we'll see. You're waiting for. Phase two to begin completely rolled out. I don't even

know what I'm waiting for. I mean, we see a lot of network effects. So I usually typically look for network effects. So that's good. Let's see if this Byzantine general attack works out. And y'all can keep coordinating. I think the transition to East to. Yeah. I think the transition to East to where East one gets like loaded up into East is is an easier process than

what big corners think it is. Like I said, I don't claim to be an expert on Ethereum. But I would say that I do know a lot about Bitcoin. And. And you're talking about there's two spaces. There's like two. There's Bitcoin is this. And then the theory is that I would argue that no, there's just one space. It's the Bitcoin space. Bitcoin's the foundation. Ethereum is

built on top of Bitcoin. And it addresses a lot of things. Top of Bitcoin. What does that even mean? It is. Like from a monetary perspective, Bitcoin enabled Ethereum to exist. Like the entire crypto space is built on top of it. Is built on top of Bitcoin. All of it. No, that's not. That is. No, if you if you delete a Bitcoin, Ethereum would still run.

Ethereum is not dependent on Bitcoin. But if Bitcoin didn't come around, Vitalik would never have been able to create. That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He was. I built upon like the inventor of cars. We stand on the shoulders of giants. Absolutely. That doesn't impact the relationship between you. Think about this way. If you if you price anything in Sats, you're using Bitcoin. Ethereum has been

priced in Sats since the day it was born only by pricing. There's some for Ethereum. That's it matter. That is that is not. So. That's something to rest an argument on top of. I mean, I would argue again, like if you really look at this entire space, like Bitcoin was born and it enabled altcoins. Like it was the trading pair against altcoins. It was always been

the crypto reserve currency. Like money is what creates an economy. It is the way to interpret and spend value. And Bitcoin is the first digital bear asset on the internet. It's the first true cash instrument on the internet. It literally spawned the entire. Internet organic monetary revolution is all stemmed from that one point. Yeah. Everything is a fractal off of Bitcoin. Well, yeah. Everything is technology

is a fractal. Like sure. Like everything is a fractal off of the internet, which is a fractal off of wires, which is a fracture off of like. I'm not. I'm not here arguing that Bitcoin is not built on top of the internet. It was been on the internet. And it was built on top of the only infrastructure. It's such an unhelpful distinction. Like, okay, cool. I

think it's. It's built on top of Bitcoin. It's just built downstream of Bitcoin as time goes. Like you know, you talk about like, Hey, Bitcoin pumps and then flows. Yes. Go into. And then like this is part of it being built on top of Bitcoin. Hey, guess what? We're on a four year cycle. Guess what has a four year cycle. Oh, it's Bitcoin with the having.

Okay. Congrats. I think the cognitive dissidents is insane here. It doesn't even. I'm not saying it's not that all those things are aren't true. Like sure. It may be. Maybe the crypto cycles are four years because that's how long Bitcoin haven't even. Maybe even then it wouldn't fucking matter because they're still independent. We can agree to disagree. Like I said, I know a lot more about

Bitcoin. The need to. Well, yeah, but you are trying to claim is something outside of Bitcoin. And Dodgers to Bitcoin. Like, you know, when you think of like internet companies and.com companies like all of those are built. Like they are organizations that are built. On top of the internet. Okay. Like Ethereum is the first Bitcoin organization that was enabled by Bitcoin. That truly was successful. And

there's many others. Like you can look at a lot of the like fringe weird like, you know, not legally situated exchanges. And many of them also, you know, operate and have been enabled by Bitcoin. So like more and more organization and type of organization in variety of organizations in tons of, you know, other innovations are going to continue to fractal off of the foundation that Bitcoin

has created for the for the world. Okay. That's great. Imagine in a world where this. The government or somebody has successfully shut down Bitcoin in the promotion of Ethereum. That is a world where Bitcoin is not working as a blockchain as a crypto system and Ethereum is working as a result of Bitcoin not being there. Ethereum is doing just fine. And congrats. Like it was originally

built on Bitcoin. And Ethereum has all of the market cap of whatever this crypto economic revolution is. Like I don't know what you're trying to like. So you want to get a theory of people to like pay homage to Bitcoin as like. This has nothing to do with homage. You're making this a lot more personal and defensive than it is. It is about observing reality. I.

I know this is a semantic debate. No, absolutely not. This is trying to understand. And how the space is working. So I commented on how realistic you were in this, in your piece that you wrote about, you know, tokens and DeFi and all how the market all works in the bull run. I'm just trying to help you understand how the space works from a macro perspective.

And that's how it works. And like if you, if you can't like step back and back. Yeah, this is how it works. Like you, you actually are like this, the biggest cognitive distance that most ethats prevent them from actually understanding Bitcoin. Okay. Here's what. I think we are arguing is that you are saying that Ethereum is built on Bitcoin and that everything's downstream of Bitcoin. What

I'm hearing what I'm hearing from that is when I hear of built on something. I'm I'm hearing that the value of the market cap value of Ethereum or the things built on Ethereum, which you are saying is built on Bitcoin. Would be captured by Bitcoin. And so like the app layer, the value of the app layer on Ethereum, all the DeFi tokens plus the value of

Ethereum. Since that's built on Bitcoin, Bitcoin would be a higher valuation than Ethereum. I'm saying in a world where it's fit possible that Bitcoin is deleted from the universe. And there's only Ethereum. Ethereum is not built on Bitcoin because it can still operate while Bitcoin doesn't exist. And the market cap of Ethereum actually doesn't pay any homage to Bitcoin, the market cap. So when you say

that everything is built on Bitcoin, it's just a semantics thing saying that like Bitcoin came first. And the Ethereum market cap is possible for it to go to $100 trillion. And the Bitcoin market cap is not going to be a big deal. The market cap is zero using your analysis of Ethereum is built on Bitcoin. And so like, sure, congratulations. If in a world where Bitcoin

is deleted and Ethereum is $100 trillion, I'll sure. Wait. So in that world, this is here. Whenever whenever one someone says, so what you really saying, like that's generally just like you are you are communicating a delusion. So you have this delusion that I'm saying that Ethereum is not valuable because it is at because I'm saying the reality that Ethereum was enabled by the fact that

Bitcoin existed. And therefore, Vitalik and the team could have funding and fund their project that they worked on and created. And the entire time Ethereum had a trading value against something that with able people to actually communicate value in it, you are ignoring that that did in fact happen. And that is what enabled. That's not worth it. No, we're just doing a thing. No, but here's

the thing. Like yes, like if you understand that the entire time Bitcoin was money that in the market, and able to Ethereum to happen, then you understand that hey, Bitcoin is money. And your statement where you were kind of freaking out about me saying that, hey, downstream from Ethereum is Bitcoin. Like the reality is that everything is trending to zero in Bitcoin terms. Like you have

to understand that every single thing in the universe, if you price it in 21 million, it trends to zero in Bitcoin terms. So yeah, I am kind of saying that any value that's created by Ethereum ultimately gets captured in 21 million in Bitcoin. But I'm not also saying that if Ethereum is not valid, I'm not also saying that Ethereum doesn't have good qualities. I'm not also

saying that it won't capture value. I'm just saying you were saying the reality. In fact, that yeah, hey, you know, Bitcoin was the digital money that existed, which enabled all of the crypto space to be created. And it still continues to enable it to thrive and exist with, you know, Bitcoin's shell and armor to protect it. Okay. This is this is like saying, that anything that

has a market price on a secondary market is built on Bitcoin. Once we go through hyper Bitcoinization and everything is price and sat. Well, if you price everything is sat, then everyone uses Bitcoin. Yes, correct. So if you price something, but also we need to make a formal distinction that when you say built on Bitcoin, there's nothing fundamentally structural about the Bitcoin blockchain that supports other

things. You're talking about it from a monetary angle. You started this argument saying that you said Ethereum was built on Bitcoin. And you got triggered. It was funny. Yes, because it's wrong. No, it's not. Well, because it's wrong in the way. What is Ethereum built on? Is it built on cloud servers and like Ethereum is a network of hardware? Yes. Yes. And so and it's also

a value token that is traded against something else. And that something else has been and always was Bitcoin. Yes, Ethereum is built on the universe and the other things that in inhabit this universe, I guess we're all built on each other to collectively. Like the foundation of my house shares some sort of foundation with your house in San Francisco. I guess we're built on the same

foundation together. Like what's like it's just a meaningless point or perspective to offer anyone. I mean, airs the substrate that connects me and you. Sure. It coins like air. That's as much of a speculation as to what the Bitcoin can do that. There's the thing. This is this is my problem with these heads is that they just don't. Full. Yeah, maybe it's pay homage to Bitcoin,

but they actually just don't appreciate. You know, what Bitcoin is. That's because you guys think that Bitcoin has this God given right to just pump forever. That's a ridiculous thing to think God given. It's it's it's a specific properties. And those specific properties will instrumentalize into. It becoming the global reserve currency and everything that is we are 12 years. This is measured in a hard capped

unit. Well, you know, humans have always created more abundance. So if the units that you measure that abundance never change, but the abundance continue to grow. Everything will trend to zero in that unit. It's not like I'm saying like it's this amazing thing. It's like, yeah, sound money does that. That's what it does. And when the world transitions to a sound money, and that is what

the what the movie that direction, that's how that will how the world that's how the world will orient. That's what we're why can't we price. The Ethereum ecosystem in like 2X the Bitcoin ecosystem or 5X the Bitcoin ecosystem or 55X the Bitcoin ecosystem. Why can't we price like the entirety of the Ethereum blockchain priced in maybe it's worth like 200 million bitcoins. Why can't we do

that? Well, I mean, the current. Because this are the current economy is worth, you know, more than 21 million Bitcoin, but I just don't think that's going to happen. Because all of those things are built on top of Bitcoin. So therefore, they can't be bigger than Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the foundation. No, I totally think the Ethereum Applayer can be bigger than ether. And in that same

vein, using your crazy ass notion that Ethereum is built on Bitcoin. Ether could also be worth more than Bitcoin. You have to define what you're doing. You actually mean like when people say built on something, Bitcoin will be the biggest asset in the entire world. It's going to be 50% of every single trade. That's the direction is going. This is if you understand. essential POV crypto

episode. We have ever done. And if you understand that reality, you understand that everything is going to be trending to zero and Bitcoin terms. Like you understand from a monetary perspective, like everything will be interpreted into Bitcoin. Like that's what Bitcoin is doing. That is this point. Like that's why we're sharpening the spear in order to do that. Like Bitcoin is such a. It's such a

what's a word. Like people always think that, hey, Ethereum is this like really, really like out there thing. Like they're trying to achieve so much. But like I think that Bitcoin's actually trying to achieve a lot more. Like Bitcoin's really trying to do that. Like I'm trying to rewrite how the entire world is functioning. How the entire world is orienting. I think when you say everything,

it's zero and Bitcoin. I think when you say everything is built on Bitcoin, I think I can agree with you. If you extend that Bitcoin, the idea, the true idea of what you are saying, where, where like the world is built on scarcity, can actually the idea of Bitcoin is actually living in Ethereum. And so I, I could agree with you. That like scarcity and trending

towards scarcity versus a world of abundance. That whole dichotomy can exist on top of Ethereum. Because Ethereum is sure a fractal off the extension of what Bitcoin is. Yet Bitcoin needed to actually expand on the technology side in a dip to into fulfill its manifest destiny of everything trending towards zero versus scarcity. In the idea of Bitcoin sure is alive and well. See, yeah, now you

think that you're going to upgrade Bitcoin. Because that's what's good for your bags. And that's not something that's not going to happen. That's exactly what's going to happen. This is why you can't understand that that everything is built. Like the entire crypto. I mean, you say I can't understand, but I just say that you can't understand like two. Shay. Well, see, but there's there is no

foundation where Ethereum is the foundation of the crypto ecosystem. The foundation is changing that is being attacked. And on top of that, that foundation is what we know. For a fact that it is above Bitcoin. Like here's Bitcoin in here's Ethereum. If you, if you, so you can take generalize Bitcoin rug under. Okay. Then maybe Ethereum will be floating there, but Ethereum will be worse off

for it. And then on top of that, Ethereum is literally being Byzantine general attacked by its own community. The percentage of people. Yes. Look at that. People people. I hope listeners of POV crypto would know what that is. I think the, I think the, the perception shit, what was I going to say? The only, so if you get security like, or just like monetary policy, mainly

monetary policy, if you get that close enough, only like 0.2% of the world will care about the difference between Ethereum's monetary policy and Bitcoin's. Like just just, and that's the point you said in the world are the Bitcoin maximally basically. Like what's going to be a huge portion of the world? You think that's going to be a huge portion of the world. It's just going to

become a sense. I, I think that is, I think that is the misassumption zero, like rounding down to zero people give a, give, uh, that many fox about Bitcoin. No, it's not going to, it's not going to be they care about Bitcoin, Maximals, it's literally they want to do whatever. Perfect scarcity. The point is the thing that helps them do it. Bitcoin, perfect scarcity is not

just create Bitcoin, Maximus. Like not, and not by like, I don't know, Bitcoin being the global reserve currency is, means that most people will use it, and it will be the most obvious thing to use as money. I think, I think the most obvious thing to use as money will be the asset that allows them to play all their games and speculate in all their defi

tokens, because that's what's fun. That's not what the world is not speculating. The world is doing stuff. Sure it is. You look at gambling to business to investing and it's all on the same spectrum. Look at, look at the cash market. Cash is the most popular instrument in the entire planet when it comes to a monetary instrument. Cash is the lowest denominator of monetary instruments. Right.

And the cash of the entire Bitcoin is the cash is the entire. For investing in the stock market, if you look at that, that's a, yeah mindset. You are, you are stuck in the fiat mindset. You can't, you, like, you, you're cognitive dissidents to understand what Bitcoin is doing to the world is very obvious right now. So, so you know that, you're stuck in fiat lands.

You know that, that meme cycle that you like to cite where like, you know, the, the pleb comes into crypto and they start with Bitcoin. And then they go to like ether, manero and Bitcoin and then they go to a bunch of shit coins and then they end back at Bitcoin. This is like the Austrian in fiat or Austrian Keynesian, not even Keynesian, but like the

Austrian or whatever you think the ethereum version of Austrian is my and say and like those things just leapfrog. Like first there was Austrian with gold, then there was fiat with dollars and then there was Austrian with Bitcoin. And now there's this like pseudo Austrian is on Ethereum. I think that's what's happening is like, well, I'm saying like you're saying like you have an elevated yourself

there yet. And I'm saying, well, you have, you, you have an elevated yourself there yet. Nope, not saying that and I disagree with your example. No, I, I, there, there, there is tools to use as money and there are technological advancements that help money scale. And banking was a technological advancement that help gold scale, but it required trust. And now we are entering into a stage

in the world where the tools to use as money and is Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the most obvious thing to do there. It's already a massively huge network. By the time Bitcoin was a billion dollar network, it already had one. Bitcoin is like, what, what's Bitcoin? It's like almost 400 billion. More than that. How much is Bitcoin? Isn't that literally doing one of the market cap? Isn't

that what is that? I mean, it's tool for what you want. Who cares what it's at now? It's already one percent. But that's network effects are compounding. So like Bitcoin is already by far the biggest and it's only going to compound from here. I don't think that's true. I don't think the lead that you think you keep saying that like Bitcoin is the lesson in exponentials.

Like Ethereum is not that far behind Bitcoin in like less than half the time. Because it's built on Bitcoin. Bitcoin already paid. It's built on itself. Let's let's just wrap this one. I need to make a stick. I have a nice bone in rib eye. I'm supposed to picture on Twitter. I'll be posting a picture of it as it is completed and celebrating ETH all time.

Hi. Hey, my happy picture every day. Just get rich every day. Oh my God. This was truly the quintessential POV crypto. I think if anyone wants to ever ask me what is POV crypto about, I'm going to send them this episode. It kind of got a little redundant at the end. But yeah, I mean, it's important. That's that those. This is the dividing line between you

and me and our beliefs. And so we're just like tiptoeing around the line over and over and over again. Who do you believe listeners? Who do you believe? You guys follow CK at CK underscore Snarks and at Bitcoin Magazine. David follow me at Trustless State both on Twitter and on bankless. I don't know why I refer to myself in third person, but whatever. Sure. All right.

He's yes. So you believe. If nothing should be in your mind as well. Will you deceive? Will you deceive? Will you deceive? When there's a crying door, it's a dirt. When there's a crying door, it's a dirt. Straight to blue clouds. Straight to blue clouds. Straight to blue. Sorry you're going to raise me higher. Sorry you're going to raise me higher. Sorry you're going to raise

me higher. Sorry you're going to raise me higher. Sorry you're going to raise me higher.