BTC VS ETH in a BULL on Twitter Spaces.

Love Oh, what's that? Long time no talk, man. How's it going? Long time no talk. Have we started? It's just the start. It's live, but let's definitely make small talk. All right. Small talk for a start later. Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you for managing the hosting of this. New York was absolutely fantastic. Probably one of the best crypto trips I've ever ever gone on.

And I didn't actually go to a single NFC and my C event at all. I was just like hanging out with with the homies at the peripheral events. So there was a conference that was unaware. Yeah, so there was the NFC and YC conference. It is apparently a thing, a conference that has happened before, but this was the first I heard of it. And then through

like the grapevine, this is totally, totally, uncomfortant to take. But one of the reasons why this particular NFT, NYC conference was so massive was because apparently at Bitcoin 2021, people were talking like, oh, this conference is great. I love conferences. I want to go to all the conferences. What conference are you going to next? And then apparently enough people said the answer to that question was

NFT NYC. So people would be going like, oh, and they would just pass it along. They would go, oh, are you going to NFC or are you going to NFC and NYC? And apparently, like, it kind of got started there as like the meme of the next big crypto conference that people were going to go to. And so it just absolutely blew the fuck up. And

like, we were like 10 times more people went to the actual network. I don't know. I don't know. But I mean, the whole thing just got kept on scaling up and up and up. And then there were a lot of people like me that went anyways without actually intending on going to the conference itself. Cool. You buy in there? Yeah, yeah, I did. The last Friday

I was there. I went to an NFT, an in real life NFT show. And I met this guy who had some art there. And I was just walking around all the edit. A lot of the, it was like projectors and LED displays upon a wall. So each kind of piece of art was displayed differently. And there was on this big, big LED screen TV, basically, I

guess there was this, it's like almost like 30 minutes of footage that this guy had taken using a drone. And he would take that footage and put it through like this AI, like, this algorithm basically to take the footage and like make it like neater. And it just made it very, very surreal, very like watercolor like, but under the process of like an algorithm, right? So

it was like one part drone footage, one part, like watercolor like algorithm. And he had a series of eight of them. And that's why they watch. That's why there was like almost 30 minutes of footage. And I bought all of them about every single one. And so we were actually just going through the minting process today with this team called manifold. And the cool thing about

manifold is that you'd actually don't have to trust them about the minting process. They put the contracts on the theory. And then they put the data on our weave. And so it's like, well, the like a, like a, like a stateless NFT minting platform. And so we had just the whole actually, the whole process of learning how to actually like minted, mint something that you really,

really care about rather than buying some like stupid, stupid JPEG on OpenC and actually like giving a fuck about the art and like learning how to actually like manage with the process of the whole thing is actually was a really interesting process. So nice learning moment. The, the, it's always so interesting seeing how quickly the fads and Ethereum go. You know, first it's like art like

people. And then it's like stuff where it's like an algorithm that prints something and puts it on OpenC. And now that's just like stupid stuff. And now you need to buy real art and invent it like. I would not call that a fat. No, I would not call that a fat. That's not a bad. I think I feel like the NFT thing like I get why,

you know, unique hatches on the blockchain could be a useful thing. But I think the whole, I think it's a pretty big bubble right now. Yes, it's very, very, it's very priced in. I would say that fat implies that this, that is not an innovation. Fat implies that we didn't discover something. And that is, in my mind, that is fundamentally wrong. I will grant that like,

yeah, there are this like, there's this movement of capital and attention from like use case to use case. Like first it was profile picture NFTs. Then it went to like generative RNFTs. And now it's going to like maybe one of one NFTs. But I actually wouldn't even intend that it's even doing that because all the all the profile punk or like crypto punk, cool cast, all

the profile picture NFTs have like held their weight in either terms of price. And then a lot of artists have recently just got a lot of revenue. Making one of one RNFTs and our blocks are still continuing to do well. Like I wouldn't call it a fat at all. We're just kind of like figuring out all these use cases. And yeah, the attention is like rotating

at a very rapid pace. But like the so far, the economics sustainability is definitely there. Whether that holds out for a long, the long term is another story. But for now, like a lot of creativity is happening. And you throw around the word economic sustainability pretty lightly. Well, you don't use it enough. Back in the bear market, the 2018 to 2020. Bear market. Bitcoin or it

was basically just Bitcoiners and Ethereum's. And that was about it. And that's like when POP crypto like was that it's what that was at its peak, right? And I think there was a reason for that. As soon as this bull market started, like these community started growing. And they started growing enough to the point where they started like diverging. And like the Venn diagram overlap between

Bitcoiners and Ethereum actually started to get like as a percentage smaller. That's that's my advantage. I think that's the advantage of the kind of interpretation of the events of the last like year or so. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's an absolute divergence between the crypto industry and the Bitcoin industry. And you're like seeing like the Bitcoin only industry. And obviously crypto has been doing

like the Ethereum. Native industry has been its own thing for a while. So I mean, I think that that's definitely a fact. Yes, yes. Yeah. So back in 2018, 2019, the crypto industry was just Bitcoin and Ethereum. And then now Bitcoin has like kind of it's definitely like hitting its. It's really, really. I would say siloed away from the rest of crypto because it's a big

deal. Let's say we stopped from properly operating and then thecontact was rolling and talking about AI. Was that Seattle? Sure, people would make is that well because you are actually doing both you actually get tailwinds on both sides, but that's a that's a long conversation. Yeah, or you get you get neither benefit because you introduce a political process into into how these things work. Well, no,

so what I was talking about was more of a technical implementation of the protocol itself, whereas I think what you're talking about was just like the nature of a theory of governance. Sure. I mean, like, I don't know if I agree that Bitcoin siloed, I think the Bitcoin industry, the Bitcoin only community is like trying to differentiate and be a don't thing and kind of stand

on its own. Like, you know, Coin Center was the only advocacy group. Now there's like this push for many advocacy groups, including many Bitcoin only advocacy groups. You know, we're seeing like many Bitcoin only publications. We're seeing, you know, this just this emergence of a thriving Bitcoin only industry. And I don't think that like that is like separate from crypto, but it is differentiating Bitcoin from

crypto by creating a Bitcoin only industry. I mean, I think Bitcoin is huge in all of these apps. What's one of the Bitcoin is the sound money app. It's the Bitcoin app. You know, all of these like layers, or chains can plug Bitcoin in. So I mean, what's the one of the first things that they put in is some sort of rap BTC and whatever way

is most convenient. Kids. Okay, so from what I've gathered in the last year of Ethereum is like, on Ethereum, no one gives a fuck about WBTC on Ethereum. It's like the Malay, at least interesting asset. And if you want Bitcoin to be sound money, like you know that when it's on Ethereum, it loses all the sound money properties during because you want to transfer it over.

You have to trust somebody to actually do that. And what's the merit of a Bitcoin only blank? Like Bitcoin only fund Bitcoin only, like a lobbying groups. Like that's just why is that a good thing? Like why aren't you more inclusive? And like, obviously, Bitcoin owners have always been very exclusive as in it's like a Bitcoin only culture. But it seems like the biggest criticism of

Bitcoin that I've had lately is like, when it comes to Bitcoiners advocating for what they believe in, is they want to advocate for Bitcoin. And then they want to like slam the door shut behind them along the way. Like what's what's the value of that? Yeah, I mean, I agree in you in the fact that I think that some Bitcoiners are very close-minded to what is

good for Bitcoin. I subscribe to the school of thought that everything is good for Bitcoin, including Shitcoin chains and other crypto infrastructure. But with that being said, like, I think that a lot of things that coin, Coin Center does a lot of good work, in my opinion. But with that being said, like, they have to advocate for a lot of things that have nothing to do

with Bitcoin. And they have to like, all crypto together and ask for, like, for example, like they deal with a lot of like security regulations around tokens. Like, you know, that really has very little to do with like, making sure that Bitcoin mining and holding Bitcoin and running a Bitcoin node is something that citizens in different countries can do reliably. Like that, I feel like those

things are very different things to advocate for. And it's pretty clean to, you know, advocate for Bitcoin. But Bitcoin is a very, it's like fairly launched. It's clearly not a security. It's a commodity. It's decentralized. Like, it's free. It's free. It's freedom of speech. So like, I think it's clean to advocate for Bitcoin. Once you start adding in everything else, it gets a lot less clean.

So just even from an advocacy perspective, I think it's beneficial just for Bitcoin. But this is just a complete subjective argument as to like, oh, I think that this thing is good. Therefore, I think that this is a good thing. For I want the lobbying groups to advocate for this thing and this thing alone. And there's other things that aren't as good as this thing. And

any resources that are spent advocating for like some NFT thing, which I deem a shit coin is, but therefore bad. Like that's just a subjective argument that you're like trying to will upon the people that are doing the advocating. And on the other side of things, and other people can advocate for whatever they want. I just like, I, yeah, but you're talking about your Bitcoin. Yeah,

specifically. And, like, Bitcoin is making that happen. Yeah. Right. Bitcoin is making that happen. There are like a scribing to this model where like, we're only, we only give our attention and energy on to, onto one thing. And the fact that they believe that is, is, is, it's, it's just so frustrating when like, there's, there's all these tokens on Ethereum. And by the very nature of

the Ethereum protocol, whenever more tokens are created, whenever more block space is consumed, that actually has downstream impacts upon the monetary asset. That is the thing that secures the network, which is Ether. So whenever someone makes a single transaction on Ethereum, it makes Ether a more sound money. And now that is the soundness of the economics. We can go into the debate about the soundness of

like whether people can actually tinker with that via protocol upgrades, but it does have downstream soundness of the economics of Ether. And so if you are talking about, look, I want Bitcoiners to advocate for sound money and sound money. Again, it's just a subjective argument as to whether you, what you believe is to actually be sound money. And it's really just another form of gate, gatekeeping,

which is a lot of artists are minting these NFTs as a, as an expression of their speech. Artists like art is speech and artists, especially digital artists now have these NFT things to communicate what they want to express to the world. And so all these Bitcoin advocates that, again, like, if you're interested in the market, you're going to be able to see a lot of these

things. So if you give a fuck about Bitcoin, and that's the only thing you give a fuck about, like, sure, that's also a speech. You're allowed to do that. But just like, like, drawing the line and saying, like, I don't want, I'm not willing to share resources with other people that are in my same industry. And like, regardless of whether you think that this is a

Bitcoin industry, and then a separate cryptocurrency industry, it's not like that. It's all the same. And that's how people view us. It's just, it's just, it's just, in me, it's just another form of like bag bias where people are in my Twitter comments to me, like, oh, what about my coin that, like, I believe in, it's the same thing. I mean, I think it's pretty unfair

to call it bag bias. Like, I think people are a lot of advocate for what they care about. And like, you know, advocating for Bitcoin, I care about that a lot. I definitely would push back on, you know, you, five, by advocating, like, the definition of sound money between like something that is like theoretically deflationary versus sound as in its like, uncorruptible and, and, and like

a perfect monetary policy. So I feel like, perfect. It's also subjective. I think, I think a fixed monetary policy is the perfect monetary policy for communicating, for communicating value and the most scalable way possible. Because it removes a monetary uncertainty and allows us to move forward as a society. So, I mean, that is my mental moment. I can't really put a model for how Bitcoin helps

humanity evolve. What you're describing, to me, sounds more of like, a way to make number go up in fiat terms. Yeah, so I will agree that Bitcoin has this, has this great niche as to a monetary policy as in a hard count. That's a fantastic, just like there's a lot of value to be captured there. It is not, it is not like pristine. It is not

V. It's just like, I mean, you know, I can't say, it's like, I mean, it's not a good thing to say it's just a bad thing to say it's not, it's not a bad thing to say it's not a bad thing to say it's not a good thing. niche to cover. It is not like this immaculate thing that is true. It's a really, really good one.

And where you contrast that with like, oh yeah, with Ethereum, this whole like burning of the transaction fees, all this stuff, it's all about like the pump mentals and the number go up. Yeah, sure, I mean, sure. I would frame it in a different terms. I would frame it as security goes up. And the number one thing that the Ethereum network is interested in is securing

itself. And then we all know that the value of the underlying asset, the more that it is higher, the more secure the Ethereum, the more secure that the blockchain is. Whatever blockchain that it is, like Bitcoin, you know, this. And so it's maybe if you want to frame it negatively, you can say like, oh yeah, pump mentals, like you dollar value go up. I'm saying everything

that is built on Ethereum, it becomes more secure the more things that are built on Ethereum. And this is a security and economics sustainability flywheel. In my, in my ideas, a beautiful model. I mean, the thing is that all of those things are also true for Bitcoin in terms of the system gets more valuable as more people use it as it is integrated into the world

more. Yeah, that's definitely true. And that's true because Bitcoin is more people use the money, money gets money, liquidity gets liquidity. And that's the way that it is. And that is also true for Ethereum, same thing with the ether, all the, all the same reasons of what you just said about Bitcoin are also true for ether, the asset on the Ethereum blockchain. And ether also has

all the tailwinds of utility of people using ether for non monetary use cases. So not only does ether get the monetary use cases, the pure monetary use cases, but also gets the, it gets lashed onto the utility of the Ethereum blockchain. Yeah. What Bitcoin doesn't do is it doesn't connect the value of the asset to the value of the block. And so Bitcoin block space can

be very, very cheap while one Bitcoin can be very, very expensive. And that's an insecure blockchain. Whereas Ethereum, the utility of the block space, the reason why people are purchasing that block space, the nf2, because people want to speculate on entities, whatever, like the value of the block space actually does become formally instantiated in the value of the ether, the asset. So, I mean, honestly, I

don't know enough about Ethereum block game theory, at least the most up to date game theory, to comment on how it captures the value of the block space. But I have a very simple explanation for why the block space is expensive. And that is because the cantalon effect is very lucrative. So if you have a very lucrative thing, then your block space is going to be,

I think, unnaturally high. So I mean, I don't know how long the cantalon effect is going to be. So if there's going to continue to be relevant, it's probably going to be our entire lifetime, which would vote well for things that enable the cantalon effect and cantalon insiders to take advantage of that. So that's what Ethereum does right now. And I think in terms of Bitcoin,

I think that you and many people that on the Ethereum side have very, very little understanding of the actual economics and game theory of Bitcoin. I think if you subscribe to anything that Justin Drake says, you actually don't understand how Bitcoin works, how mining works, how the incentives work. We haven't even gotten into the news, but we can talk about China and what happened there and

how that pretty much invalidates every aspect of what a lot of Ethereum Bitcoin bears say about how Bitcoin's security works. Well, so to speak for Justin Drake, Justin Drake would just response you and say, well, you don't actually understand. And I think we would also say, what do I not understand? I don't really understand. Bitcoin. Bitcoin. And then also when like the hash rate of Bitcoin

goes down by 50% and then goes back up and recovers due to the local temporal time of like what, nine, six months, it's actually 50% is nothing in comparison to the long term algorithmic depreciation of the Bitcoin subsidy, which have itself every four years. So it has itself in like going down 50% is not the same thing. So it's not the same thing as approaching zero.

Those are two very, very different numbers. And to address the concern of like the can't can't cancel on effect where like apparently some central ether like stakeholders are earning all the value of the the on chain economics. One of the reasons why having a financial layer built on your chain is so important. And also one of the reasons of how we can spread all this wealth

is when something some tokens get birthed on Ethereum. Like that's what I'm saying. That is not connected to ether, the asset except for the gas fees that was needed to be paid. And so when some token like chain link goes from zero to a bajillion dollars or some artists like min some high value NFTs. It takes one transaction fee. And then the complete rest of the

value of the tokens are completely separate from ether holders. And so what Ethereum allows people to do is we have an asset money printer. We have it. We have the printing press. That we that of assets and that printing press just like in the Renaissance running the reason why the Renaissance happened was we created the printing press and ideas were able to proliferate. And that created

the information networks of the 1400s that allowed ideas and freedom to spread throughout the Renaissance. Then we came up with the internet and the same thing happened with in freedom of information. And now with blockchains we have not just a printing press of information, but in it. And so we have the printing press of assets that allows anyone to create their own assets in ways that

they can find ways to describe value to it. And so it actually completely decentralized the central money printer and pushes it towards the margins. And allows wealth creation to be at the margins. That has nothing to do with any sort of central body of like Ethereum people that control the whole entire network. Except for the one connection of the gas fee. Which again I do understand

is high. But that is what it costs to maintain. Highly valuable network that allows for this wealth creation events to be happening at the margins. Well the gas fee is high as because it pays to pay the gas fee if you are an insider. It pays to pay the gas fee period like full stop. Sure. I mean there's a lot of analysis that shows that it's

like pretty much big funds that are using the blockchain at this point. But beyond that I would like to say the big funds are doing all the activity on OpenC. I mean I think there's a lot of speculators who again are taking advantage of what's happening on Ethereum, both the printing and the speculating on it during a bull market. So that's great. I'm not even contending

with anything that you just said. Really. I agree that Ethereum does all these things and all these things are possible now. Really my contention with Ethereum is that not that they are wrong about Ethereum. They're probably right about Ethereum. You know more about Ethereum than me. I think that's like a pretty obvious. I won't admit that. But my contention is that you're actually extremely wrong about

Bitcoin. And because you're extremely wrong about Bitcoin, you're missing out on a very big part of what's going to be happening in the future. And what is going to be happening in the future in terms of what Bitcoin means to value being stored in random assets. I think that's like long term very bearish because I don't think that that really computes with having a pure store

value and a pure monetary system that I'm bearish on assets holding value. I think assets are going to be reduced to their utility value. Hold on. Okay. So you said that there's these users of Ethereum that are. At the whims of these big funds or big money people like doing all this speculation on the NFTs. That's partly why maybe the OpenC volume is so high. I'm

just saying it pays to be a whale on Ethereum and it pays to be an insider and a taste banker. And that's why it like obviously you can arm the fees. So. And you said about speculation, right? Like it was about speculation on the arm. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that that's what it is. And like this is one of the biggest arguments

about why big corners have always justifies like the volatility in VTC, right? Like what? If we are at the genesis of a very large like wealth creation event that's going to just like shattered the world when it comes to what it means. I have arts and culture. There is speculation that comes along with that. Like people know that there's wealth to be made. And so a

lot of this speculation actually ends up in the hands of the artists that are making these like NFTs. Whatever, like whatever tokens are being made these days. There's nothing wrong with that. Right. It's a beautiful part of the fundamentals. Like. Right. And so like this speculation by funds actually is what is funding all of this like cultural creation, cultural, like artistic expression. I think that's a

pretty fiat idea. And it doesn't really compute with a sound money, sound money world. So that's what I'm saying is like you are right. But you like I think you are just underestimating Bitcoin. And then what Bitcoin does to the paradigm? Yeah. The thing is like the cool thing about Ethereum being aligned with like utility and having things that are able to happen on Ethereum is

that we actually as Ethereum people get to point at all the things that we like have as evidence. So it's like, oh, this is like why Ethereum is doing the things that we're saying that it's going to do. Whereas I've just been hearing like the same chance about Bitcoin over and over and over again. Like, oh, you don't get the theory of sound money. You don't

get like the properties about Bitcoin. You don't get Bitcoin. And like, I think I actually get Bitcoin. Like we've done this, we've done this podcast for years. I've talked to many, many Bitcoin. I think I understand Bitcoin pretty damn well. And Bitcoin is unfortunately are plagued with this problem where they only have this like narrative and thesis of just like these probably like proof of work

is valuable. And that's the narrative and like miners selling their coins. That's good for distribution. It's good for legitimate. But unfortunately because Bitcoin has like consolidated all of its technical capabilities to only focusing on VTC the asset, there is actually no evidence to support anything that is about the thesis of Bitcoin. There's only these other Bitcoiners that are chanting the same chance over and over and

over again. And that's why the whole industry thinks you guys are a total. So, I mean, what's your definition here? My definition of what? Of not living up to some sort of like success. Right, because I actually don't think that you can like parse away a lot of Bitcoin or success from the rest of the ecosystem. So Bitcoin is a big part of the ecosystem. Bitcoin

gets its own tailwinds and you say this, you're like, oh yeah, all shakoyans are good for Bitcoin. And yes, like Bitcoin is the first. And the first thing, the first proof of concept to ever rise upon the world is going to be extremely valuable. Because that's kind of the whole point of the thing. If Bitcoin wasn't valuable, then the whole rest of the industry also wouldn't

work. But going back to the whole concept about Bitcoin with this like decreasing security. Bitcoin is like perfectly positioned. Bitcoin is not the only security other than in narrative. All other metrics that relate to the having, it makes them go up. Okay, but when you approach zero, like you're just, it's where you go. When is Bitcoin going to get to the point where you're concerned? My

guess is like three ish happening from now. When you get so close to zero that like you actually aren't that far away. And like, it doesn't take like every single block to be like below zero in terms of security, but it just takes a few blocks every now and then to start really. So what is that little concept of security? So we're talking about three ish

having from now. So that's like 11 years from now. So that's a two thousand thirty two. Like, where does Bitcoin exist in that society? Right. Is it relevant? Yeah. No, it's perhaps it's extremely relevant. But it like, I think what you're asking is trying to compare the size of Bitcoin to the size of society. And that has always been like, I think our fundamental like just

like, we can't, we always talk to pass it about each other with this because it's not about how big Bitcoin is in relation to the objects around it that can attack it. It's how big it is to itself. And so if it costs very little in Bitcoin terms to reorg a day's worth of blocks, then somebody with a lot of Bitcoin's can do that. True. Bitcoin

is not proof of stake. Okay. Bitcoin is proof of works. You actually have to own the infrastructure. Or no, if you can rent the infrastructure by mint and making a significant minor subsidy by just paying people. I mean, that is someone who is just like acting completely out of game theory. So like, it just makes absolutely no sense. And again, at what point, right? So like,

my name right now, 37 sats, that is the block reward in 100 years. Okay. So like, when you're talking about when is Bitcoin going to break? Okay. So in 100 years, 37 sats per block reward is going to be a fucking steal. It's going to be an enormous amount of money. That people are going to try to arb energy to get. Okay. And it is, there's

going to be some of the biggest, most valuable companies in the entire world are going to be doing everything they possibly can do to innovate to get those 37 sats. Okay. So that is where I think this is going to go. So in terms of like, what percentage of all human activities on Bitcoin right now, probably less than 1%. So what happens when you get to

like 100%. Okay. Like we're not. We're not. We're not talking about fees, but like we're talking about appreciation of finite Bitcoin in the block award. Now stack the fees on top. So like, I feel like you're not thinking in exponentials whatsoever. And you're living in this world where you're like, well, you're just going to go down by half every four years in the next world viewers.

And then things are going to get tricky. Like, I feel like that analysis is pretty weak. What you are doing when you are making this claim is that you are baking so much equivalent expect. And then things are potentially somehow failing. So I just did an extensive review of this feature is that very significant agreement with your current market user. It's compacts. So I mean, it's

$0.90 a year. And then this project is going to take you to do. Okay. So now just a saying with your options, I realize I have a carbonate grade. And so'd be now be 100%. Okay. Cheers. You want to know what kind of 2021 kind of specials does be? Whatever. It's like 2000 sats. Let's move up like 50 years. 2000 sats. I wonder the years from

now. It's the. That's so that it's not bragging rights to advertise how low you're paying out for your security. You're baking. How much do you think? These are all like speculation. This is speculation. What do you think is your change in speculation? It's a person for most of this no speculation on how many big points are going to be or how what the block reward is

going to be at that point. That is all known. See what's what's your block reward going to be? But you are speculating on the value of. Yeah. So I'm going to either. And Bitcoin is. This is why the trajectory is really important. When you ask me what the blockchain value of a theorem is going to be. It's I don't know. But I can tell you the

trajectory and the trajectory is the more valuable that the theory block space becomes because of the more utility that's found on Ethereum, which that you tell you is created by the free market is going to go up. Whereas Bitcoin, I can tell you is going to go down. That's the whole point. Well, it's going down literally. Yeah, it's going down. You want your security to go.

No, you're down with security with BTC, denominator block board. I think block reward and fees are both going down in sat terms. If you look at the chart, that's what's happening. Okay. But both are exploding and buying power. Bitcoin. I'm talking about game theory. You're not thinking about game theory. Neither is Justin Drake. You know so much about Bitcoin. Back of an app can map doesn't

even take into account time value of money, which is basic assumption. This is speculation. That is actually how it works. He doesn't even use it basic basic map to. To make his assumptions on what is it going to take to attack Bitcoin? Again, doesn't even take into account game theory. Guess what China did? Shout out from the foot band Bitcoin and oh, you were like, oh

man, Bitcoin and Bitcoin hash rate went. Down 50%. Well, guess what? All of that hash rate relocated across the globe. A lot of that hash rate is accounted for. And now China does not have its strong hold on Bitcoin mining. Bitcoin hash rate are difficulty adjusted within about two and a half weeks. And now we're back up, you know, back to smooth sailing. So the way

I interpret that is that Bitcoin works. The incentives work. The game theory works. I'm very interested. I'm not going to say that. I think that's just like a short term like temporal. There's not in actually much signal to be pulled out there. Like we are talking about the fundamental like constructions of these systems. Not that like one country like band it. But let's go down. Let's

go down this road. China had a very large central position of hash power and then abandoned. And then that's good for distribution because this central power that had like significant on the hash power then band it. And then that hash power got diffused elsewhere making Bitcoin more decentralized. Actually, I think there's a world where like that's actually an anomaly just the fact that like China decided

like what if some like non material like country band Bitcoin mining like I don't know. Some South Africa band Bitcoin mine like not that big a deal. But what happens with when like more and more countries decided to ban Bitcoin mining and then more and more countries decided to ban Bitcoin mining and all of this hash power starts like fleeing all the countries that's banning it

and going into countries that aren't banning it. And then all of a sudden everything gets funneled into like these three countries that haven't banned Bitcoin yet. And like create they're the ones that that have all the Bitcoins. But the whole but now you can't find it across the whole rest of the world. Like these are all just like weird like geopolitical anomalies that like sure we

can talk about every single one. Doesn't really have anything to do with the actual fundamental like sustainability of the ecosystem itself. But also that's an argument as to why it's really nice to not have an actual physical footprint for your blockchain in the real world. Well, I mean again Ethereum definitely has a physical footprint. So if their infrastructure takes up a lot of energy it's in

server rooms. So this idea that it doesn't have a physical footprint is comical. But yes, the consensus is not as proof of sake or proof of work. The consensus is not tied to energy expenditure. Yes, I get that. But with the same with that being said, there is physical footprint. Like there's literally servers on the internet sucking up power. Like that doesn't come out of nowhere.

Yeah, but this this this. You don't think this is something. Once we get to proof of sake it's like a 99.9% reduction in energy consumption. And so like I mean yeah, like my when I charge my phone in it's also sucking up power. But let me tell you something about the other thing about Ethereum security is that security is defined by ether the asset which doesn't

live on a computer. Which is fundamentally different than an asick which is a computer. And so ether can hop from computer to computer to computer. And so yeah, it has a physical footprint. But that footprint is very fluid. It doesn't actually have a shape. Bitcoin obviously their footprint is extremely fluid as well. And I would say that. There is a lot of evidence. Not when you

have to pack up your miners and ship them across the world. That's not fluid. It's not as fluid as something that's completely digital. But it's still fluid. Like again, we saw really a lot of people. I think I was a person that was not fluid. Okay, so it was not so what's the timeline? Instantaneous. Okay. Okay, well, look, we we could argue about this. But I

feel like that gets besides the point because like one of your base assumptions, right, is that energy is something that it's going to be cracked down on. Right. And I would say like, yeah, energy is going to get cracked down on. And we need some and that is a bad thing. I think that that is led by false narratives that that's led by totalitarianism. And I

think that we're living in a world right now where energy is being cracked down on. And that energy systems are being deconstructed. And the grid is being centrally planned. And I think that this is where Bitcoin mining comes in and fixes a lot of issues. And so removing mining is not fixing problems. Like yes, okay, it makes the the the consensus based on stake. So it

doesn't use electricity. I don't think that that's necessarily solving a problem. And I mean, I would say that there's probably a lot of evidence to show that that's probably going to centralize the the control amongst existing holders. So in terms of like actually solving real problems, I think that proof of work is by far necessary to solve the world's problems. We need proof of work to

fix our energy infrastructure. We need proof of work. To grid balance. Like the world is frickin crumbling. Like look at what is happening across the globe. Look at Europe. Tell me Europe is in a sustainable situation based on how that infrastructure is being centrally planned. And I can tell you how Bitcoin fixes this. This is another one of those things where Bitcoiners tie in Bitcoin away

from the actual sustainability of the chain to like these real real world like just things. These are not not anomalies, but contact or context of the real world. And so you're saying that yes, we're we talk about the real world. I'm sorry that it's not all models. Yeah, the burials. What you are telling me is that oh, yes, Bitcoin in the future is going to be

this economically sustainable thing. Which is an error. It's happening now. Bitcoin is being integrated into energy now. We just did a we just did a publication on Bitcoin magazine by Compass mining showing the Navajo Nation, which has been a second class citizen or second class nation in America. The land of the free this entire time where they have no energy infrastructure and no banking. And now

they're mining Bitcoin and Bitcoin is funding energy infrastructure that was not even used. So this is absolutely happening in real life and it's happening in front of our eyes is transforming our energy infrastructure in front of our eyes, giving these people the ability to arbitrage and an honest amount. You can just look at how successful the public stocks are going to know that Bitcoin mining is

a absolute revolution that is catching fire. So I mean, I don't really know what you're looking at when you're like, Hey, I'm going to jump over to proof of state because mining bad. Like mining is absolutely something that is incredibly useful. And run into an enormous amount of utility for a real world people that need energy and they need energy across the globe and help people

in Konggging on and build out infrastructure and your proof of state does not do ship Ivora oppressed. Okay, so there's a significant amount of cherry picking that Bitcoiners do when they say about like, oh, this is where we're getting the energy from sure some of the newer installations of Bitcoin miners perhaps are more green than the older. Green is the key. This is you falling into

this weird narrative. Like the net like sustainable. Sustainable is not essentially cram grid. When we're in I say sustainable I'm saying when the actual energy the costs of the production of energy actually are lower than the result that you can get from it. So like we can cut it cut off from the grid. So long as you can produce energy at a cheaper rate than what

you can sell it, that's sustainable and Bitcoin mining like helps get that done. The thing is like the again there's a significant amount of cherry picking as to what what Bitcoiners do when they talk about like where the actual energy for this Bitcoin mining input actually comes from. And again, it's very significant. What actually should be talking about because you're ignoring all the non Bitcoin miners

that aren't doing all of this stuff that are just doing all the things that everyone or it's very specifically fearful that they're doing. And again, what we are what we should actually be talking about. Mining on energy consumption, if you consume energy, you actually have to justify that for it's. Absolutely not. I think that that is absolutely not true. And I think that's a false narrative

that is going to lead people to poverty. I think we move forward by creating more abundant energy. Not being energy police. The problem with Bitcoin is that Bitcoin is secured by proof of work. That's not the problem. The problem is that we can actually is the evolution. It's you can't remove it. It's just incentivizes Bitcoin. You can't you can't take credit for Bitcoin generating energy. If

it's generating energy and then it also just consumes it all. Like that's you don't actually are out adding anything to the world. You're just like Bitcoin. We made energy cheaper. But then but then we ate it. See, this is where this is where it's not you are misinterpreting what is happening. So what Bitcoin is is Bitcoin is energy consumption. That's not geographically bound. So that is

what's useful. And I'm sorry to like startle you. But a shipping container with A6 is extremely fucking portable. Like moving something in six months across the globe infrastructure across the globe is extremely fucking impressive. If you actually know what's happening in these conditions in a global lockdown in a global pandemic. The Bitcoin network pulled all of it with its game theory pulled all of those A6

out of China relocated across the globe across language barriers across all of every single issue that could have arose. It did that in six months. So what Bitcoin is is energy demand across the globe no matter what. So, hey, guess what you're in the Congo. No one wants to fucking buy your waterfall energy. Okay. Well, if you can get Bitcoin miners out there all of a

sudden you can monetize that. So what I'm saying is that I'm going to be able to do it. So what's your proof of stake in it? You for that person because that's a real fucking problem that Bitcoin fixes for that person. And it's like that's not to be shrugged away. That's like real. Like they have an issue. Bitcoin fixes this. You're trying to like latch on

Bitcoin and this energy production to like this like to the people of the world and like trying to like latch on the narrative onto this thing. Were you saying like oh it takes Bitcoin six months to move all of it's like security from one part of the world to another. Like in a pandemic and you say you say sure in a globe whatever. And then you

say like you can't move forward. And geogp there and Bitcoin isn't geographically constrained because you can move these things around. Like what Bitcoin can do in six months. Ether can do in one block. You can move ether directly across the world to a different computer and not actually have you say Bitcoin doesn't have a geographic footprint. Of course it has a geographic footprint. That's what it

is. And so yeah you can you can move that geographic footprint. Like you can move it like a trailer. But that still has a footprint. You still have economic cost to that to that movement of the thing. And Bitcoin is only secured two thirds electricity by one third hardware. You can't ignore the hardware aspect of this where ether you Bitcoin absolutely has a geographic footprint. Ether

does not have a geographic footprint. So ether can move from one tiny laptop from one corner of the world instantaneously across the other side of the internet without any of these. These are strong. I actually have to sell your. There is a geographic footprint for both. They are little physical computer networks and they're distributed across the globe. And look Bitcoin's energy consumption. Bitcoin's energy demand has

no geographic location. It is geographically agnostic. That is why. It brings energy online. You need the proof of work function to bring energy online. Okay. So just because your consensus mechanism is done by coins, which I understand are easier to transfer than hardware. That does not mean that ether does not have a geographic footprint because the network is physical hardware. And you have to understand that

physical hardware can be attacked. It is attached to the energy grid. And you are there's a lot of other assumptions that are baked into action. So you can actually put that thing online. If you if you are a government and you have a fighter plane with a bomb on it, you can blow up all of the a six of a Bitcoin minor with a push of

a button. Where if you take a. An Ethereum validating computer and throw it out the window, you can just move the ether. So yes, at all times ether has a geographic footprint. But the current like state of the world with the bar say Ethereum's geographic footprint. Yeah, the Ethereum network, the current state of the world does not actually commit to a future state of the world

about the footprint of Ethereum. And so like you you can you how can you not say that like big like Ethereum doesn't have a geographic footprint when there are literal physical computers. And then there is ether the asset and ether the asset isn't tied to any computer. Whereas Bitcoin's. Well, it's all the. I get how blockchains work. Yes. And so you can. I think it's a

lot of the. Right. So we all have a geographic footprint, but the key is theory. We have a geographic footprint, even though they're easy to I guess transfer. Hey, let's let's move. Let's move past my keys are on paper, not on a computer. Let's let's move this conversation over. Because I feel like we're just kind of like. We're just John at each other now coming to

a head. Yeah, let's let's talk about like the bull market because that's what we promise to the people. We want to talk about bull market dynamics for E for BTC. Maybe for shape. You know, I have some stuff here. So I guess like what are your thoughts here? I feel like the bull market has been treating you quite well. The whole. Dogecoin and dogecoin fork derivative

phenomenon is something that is fun to watch. But if we really want to get into like meaty conversations, it's really the whole like Ethereum, Versalana debate that's going on right now. Because a bunch of new people. No, no, yeah, a bunch of new. Or do you or do? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, tell me about the debate. Well, I mean, it's the same debate about EOS in

2017, right? Like a bull market comes, a bunch of people want to do like crypto stuff and transact with their stuff and have like fun crypto times. Then like the the actually decentralized blockchains become congested because they've constrained their block space. So all of that flows over to some sort of and turns into some sort of demand for some alternative L1. A bunch of VCs make

a bunch of money trying to spin up a bunch of L1s like last season. It was like EOS and and I can't remember all the other ones that died. This season is like avalanche and oh yeah, Fran was one of them. Tron still around not actually getting any traction. They got. They got their. Yeah. Avalanche and Tehran. Tehran Tron. You got to give them. Yeah, it's

just it's just repayments though, right? I mean, yeah, real people use that shit to live. Sure, sure. But yeah, so it's a last last bull market. It was EOS this bull market, Salona. All these people that are transacting on Salona are like not appreciating long term sustainability of chains and not understanding that when you have a blockchain that advocates for cheap block space, the long term,

long term destination of that change is to become more and more centralized. But what if they're talking to you block space and then pivot to expensive block space. Right. So if they do that, then they just actually turn into. Ethereum, right? So if you you're just following in Ethereum, and like sure, there's there's this like this like model in business apparently called like penetrative pricing, right?

Like if you if you wanted to drop your competition, you come in with a product you purposely dampen the price so that people buy yours instead. And then later you once you establish some sort of market dominance, then you start raising the price. Well, you start doing that. Well, then you then you actually start constraining the block space, which is how you become sustainable as a

blockchain. And then you force fees. And then everyone that's on Salona is like, well, fuck, I'm here because I wanted no fees. And now there's all the fees like where all these fees come from. And then all of a sudden like you turn into the thing that you were trying to disrupt. And we've seen this all before. It's like it's like when Bitcoin had all of

his hard forks in like 2013 to 2017. I don't know if it's exactly like that, but I feel like none of those had a chance. I don't know. There's a. Again, that's why these technical arguments about these blockchains are like so so important. Because like Salona can capture a lot of people in the world that don't care about decentralization. But that actually doesn't fix Salona's unsustainability

problems. Right. Like still at the end of the day, they're going to have to deal with state bloats. They can just walk that away because they're centralize who cares. Yeah. Okay. That's actually. That's a pretty good point. It's a pretty good point. You also have to deal with the government issues. Right. So it's a centralized. Things away like the government's going to kind of say, Hey,

hello, Mr. Mr. Anatoli. Like I don't know, man. Yeah. I mean, you can just like these. I don't think that competent these days pretty crap too. Yeah. Well, I mean, they're. They're incompetent in doing the things that we want them to, but they can be competent in enforcing the this incompetent laws that they put in place. So yeah, they're incompetent. It's making at making good laws,

but they still can be competent enforcing enforcing the bad laws that they make. I can definitely like that. That's a pretty fair take. Bad laws. Yeah. Yeah. Um, anyways. So yeah, repeat history rhymes. There's like this big solcon going on right now. Somebody sent me a bunch of notes from solcons. Like, oh, here's like the vibes of solcon right now. And like, oh, yeah, I have

to go to my computer so I can read this because like two of them are just absolutely like fucking perfect. One of them was that the narrative of Solana people is that Ethereum people got really, really rich. And therefore are like lazy and just like, like, resting on their laurels now, which is hilarious because of the concentration of Solana people. Solana people got way more rich

or way faster than Ethereum people. And it's way more of a percentage of overall Solana people. And so it's just a fantastic narrative on their part, but like fundamentally just I think everything is fractal. So it tricked out to me. Yeah. And then that's exactly right. And then see what's the other thing that they said. Hold on. Let me pull the message. The other thing I

said was, oh, yeah. Hold on. Where is it? Top down approach. Top down approach. Oh, yeah. While most ETH people dismiss Solana, I have personally come to accept that the strong set of stakeholders, that the strong set of stakeholders of Solana are trying to force a top down adoption in narrative of Solana. So this is just like the Kyle Salonies of the world and like all

the people that got rich off Solana, just like injecting money into it. And you actually actually see this on crypto Twitter these days. It's just like the chain link bots and all the other bots that we've seen XRP dots, like ADA bots. It's easy to call these people better. Just a bunch of fervent gamblers. Yeah, but you can also you can you can tell because they

all started with the last like two weeks or so. And like sure, maybe there's like this mob mentality. But like when you have that corroborated by somebody that's that Solana talking to Solana people at Solana, this Solana convention talking to the Solana people and saying like, oh, yeah, like we're going to like do that. We're we're trying to instill this like top down narrative. Like, okay,

it kind of makes sense. Yeah, I mean, like it's pretty much like the XRP model. Like it looks like the SEC. Exactly. The XRP model. And XRP or Ripple will win and prove that if you print enough money fast enough and would you device it quickly enough that you can hire the right lawyers and take down the crop government. And I think that that boats well

for Bitcoin. Printed things that might be illegal are going to get away with it and get really rich and get a lot of hard money with that. Yeah, that's actually a complete difference between the theory of Solana too much to Bitcoiners lack of narrative around that. So I have a question for you. I have a question for you. So and just honest take here. If if

there's a dog coin, like a really cute good marketed dog coin that's created on Solana, do you think that that will be a problem? Oh, probably. Is that like almost 100% bad or like how do you realize that situation given the the macro situation that we're in? What do you mean the macro situation that we're in? We're in a Bitcoin bull market and we also live

in clown world. So I feel like this is a very specific macro situation. Yeah, Bitcoiners love to like co-op the bull market and say it's a big point. It's there. It's not that's not how it works. Yeah, it's not a four year cycle that revolves around the having. Yeah, it's not. That's right. So yeah, if this if this like doggy food coin or no, yeah, doggy

coin was on Solana and it pumps. Yeah, it makes total sense. That's where all the traders and speculators and everyone that's going to Solana is like of the moon boy culture, right? Like trying to moon trying to catch my moon. And so like it makes sense to put a moon bag on Solana. Like that's product market fit. All right. If someone makes that. Keep it in

the eye out. I kind I can't I 100% think there's already like 100 dog coins on Solana. I would be so obviously I'm spending much time looking into it. No, not there have I but just like knowing the culture and knowing knowing how like DJ inside of crypto works like this definitely stuff on the menu. So I mean, let's talk about about bull market. So you

know, everyone knows me. Big coin. I'm running big coin magazine. You know, I would hope to not blush to me myself. But like, how do you go about, you know, we're in a bull market. How do you go about your informational advantage when you're in a position like this? Like, you know, I would never advocating for gambling your sats and, you know, maybe anything you invested

in the shit coin is gambling your sats because that's the opportunity cost of sats. But like, you know, you can you can you can pretty much if you've been around, you can you can understand what the average you can be able to do and think you can pretty easily forecast that. So kind of curious what you're taking is on that. I mean, I know that you're

not afraid of dabble and shit coins. I mean, I'm not I'm not much of a trader. I don't appreciate the branding of somebody that like dabbles in this like, you know, the the contilling effect that you're projecting. There's other traders out there who'd like try to play like these these like the memory of markets like if this is this this is this is that I'm kind

of a guy that is interested in owning a part of all the pieces of the shares of the public good system that is a theory. That is what I like. There are things that I care about that I want to protect one of these things that is recently in news is the NS. And so yes, I got an E NS air drop. Well, that thing is

doing things that thing is doing things right now. And we will. What do you mean by law? What do you mean by law? Well, I mean like. I'll tell you what I think. Sure. Sure. So we had Brent Lee Milligan on POV crop podcast sometime in 2019. One of the big things that we asked him about is. The funds for when somebody purchases an E NS

name. And so in order the reason why you have to actually purchase an E NS name instead of just like, you know, claiming the one that you want. Like I have David Hoffman. E. I had to pay for that. The reason why I have to pay for that is because they're scarce. And so like if all E NS names were free. Well, then like one person

can claim every single name and all of a sudden that system for naming things is useless. So we actually need to have some sort of anti-civil mechanism so that we can actually. Sustainably manage the resources of this network. So the E NS team had to actually sell these E NS names for either which made which gave them a treasury. I can't remember what it was when

we talked to Brent Lee Milligan at the time, but there's something like is in the low one single digit or million dollars or something one to 10 million dollars. And so we asked him what Brent Lee, what is he going to do with that that all of that treasury? And he was like, I don't know. I don't know what we're going to do with it. We're

just going to put it here and then we're going to like save it for later once we figure out how to do it, how to deal with it, we'll deal with it. But it was actually very much an unintentional byproduct to manage the economic resources of the system. And always in the E NS vibe in the vision, the North Star of E NS is to figure

out how to make this a community managed protocol. Then the Dow revolution comes along and you can people have figured out that they can actually. Spread out control over these systems to a very large number of people using tokens. And so using the concept of retroactive air drops where you surgically find all the people that have used your system in the past, you can allocate them

a certain balance of tokens, proportionals how much they've engaged with the system in ways that you've deemed most aligned to the system. And then you can re-alicate tokens to them. That's what happened with the E NS. So if you had an E NS, you got a certain balance of tokens, we can go into the parameters about like how some people got more tokens than others if

you want to unpack that. But I generally thought it was a pretty fair distribution. If you owned an E NS name for longer, you got more tokens. If it was for shorter, you got less tokens and a few other parameters like that. And now there are these token holders that have actually the way that the governance model works. There's delegates much like your representative democracy. No

one wants to do all this voting and understanding what's going on themselves. So you can delegate their vote to a specific delegate. You can move your vote wherever you want to. But now these delegates are responsible for acknowledging the whales of the token holders to guide the management of this E NS system. So the Ethereum Name Service system can actually be a long term sustainable public

good for the namespace around Ethereum and everything that it's connected to. It's a pretty good pitch. That's a pretty good skeptical response. There's a lot of things about it that are really clean. So you had a neat system. It's the thing that people are buying. You had a map of users. Probably Ethereum insiders were heavy on that users. Just realistically. But it's not Ethereum insiders. It's

people that used E NS. It's the people that they care about. I agree. Users. They gave it to users based on them being there. I'm just also categorizing. There's a lot of people that are using one of those users as Ethereum insiders who know the founder. It's the cantalant insiders. It's just the people. So yeah, there's a time here in which they're distributed. That distribution is

locked in stone at this time here. And then just poop a steak. They have act. They have control of this of this treasury now as well as the system. There's a bad way to paint it. There's a good way to paint it. I think ultimately, does it turn into a cabal or does it maintain as something that is a true public good? We'll see. We've seen,

I would say, the current system we have right now is quote unquote the traditional system we have. The finance system democracy in the US. That resembles proof of safety. Some degree would have some sort of treasury that they manage and specific people with the right lineage. They are connected to it. We'll see how big coin lasting for 100 years. We'll see if these things last 100

years. And if they can maintain. Right. So we can extrapolate around the previous models that we've seen, especially as it comes to shareholder equity in the Web 2 market markets and the equity markets where actually in startups distributing equity was actually really good and sensitive. To actually figuring out how to bootstrap companies, right? Like startup companies paid people an equity instead of instead of cash. Startups

to not go to bootstrapping the incentives. And like startups that turn into public goods. And this is like Facebook or meta. Right. And this is the yeah. And that's a great. That's a great failure of the Web 2 equity model. And in our podcast with tricks, this is the critics. And he said a great line, which is the whole equity model of networks from Web 2

networks like Facebook, Twitter, you know Spotify, whatever. The equity model doesn't actually work with the network model. And now that we have tokens, we actually have the capital asset that fundamentally aligns with the network model. And the difference between this is like with Uber, you have all these very disc rental drivers that don't like their company. And they're just being paid cash. And then the classic

example of the Web 3 models like, well, what if we had like an Uber that like in addition to paying cash also paid you the equity of the company. Now we have these things in the Web 3 world where they have a lot of money. They actually don't pay them in cash. They only pay them in equity. And every single user always gets the equity. And

so the equity of ENS got distributed to over 170, 137,000 people on day one. Like this is a fundamental paradigm shift with what it means to spread capital and share capital amongst the users who are now the shareholders. And like, I know this, we're going to we're going to see how, how good this line lands. But this is literally this the worker seizing the means of

production. This is literally what that is. It's the URA user and your contributing value to the system. You also receive value back from the system. And that what makes an economically sustainable system. And so like not only do we have like free market incentives and capitalistic incentives like injecting energy into the ENS system. But we have like the socialistic sensitive like, oh yeah, we can actually

make sure that this is this gets distributed and governance over these things is determined by the people that are actually using the thing. And so perfect marriage of incentives, which is how you come to find like long terms of seemingly models in the first place using the thing at a certain point. Like I think the distribution mechanism is really important too. So it was kind of

a snap like, you know, I like the experiments around distribution are are still quite early, although, although I do not discount that there are no more things that are kind of happening here with, you know, having, you know, having some sort of like cryptographic blockchain. User set, right, that you can like, Air Drops up to or whatever like that is, you know, those features are not

ending. And I don't think that that's something that is outside of Bitcoin. But it's definitely something that's not going to wait either. Have you gotten it? Have you gotten an Air Drop on Bitcoin recently? Well, it's not something that people do a lot because the cancel on cultures not really on Bitcoin. The canton on that you have referring to on Ethereum is more like fireworks. They're

going off randomly in all different places, all at once at no one central spot. So like the whole canton on word is a terrible, terribly descriptive word. It doesn't actually describe the things. It's just. The things, same thing that like Ethereum people have been frustrated about Bitcoin or it's about the end of time is always putting this negative like unjustified branding upon the economics of Ethereum.

Okay. I mean, I think part of that is like justifying why inflation is not a big part of of Bitcoin. Why Bitcoin users don't or Bitcoin holders don't necessarily benefit from token inflation directly. I think they do in terms of like Bitcoin capture some of that price and it blows up Bitcoin price a little bit. So part of it is that another side of it is

that like, okay, yes, you can navigate the technical and social economic things within Ethereum to fairly becoming Ethereum insider and benefit from the canton on opportunities that are there. And that's completely fine. But that doesn't mean that if those systems get put into place and are solidified that that won't evolve into a toxic situation for their users long term. So I think that is where the

hostility is is like, yeah, like this is a fair capitalistic system. But it might just be implementing a tech oligopoly of who is an Ethereum user in the early days. This is the same criticism that Ethereum people have about Bitcoin. But the difference with Bitcoin is that the first 50 years of Ethereum is that the Ethereum is not going to be a big part of the

Ethereum system. And then the next four years, the next 25% of coins were distributed and it was still like nothing. Right. So like it's pretty clear. So those are the new insiders now. But it's not proof of stake. Those insiders have no power over the system. It doesn't matter. It does matter because they still measure all the value. I disagree. I just disagree that. I think

that's the thing that I'm going to do. I think that the proof of stake nature matters. It makes distribution matter a lot more. So the returns, there is a, I don't know how deep the research went. There was a research report that somebody put out this week where it compared the returns on investment on proof of work and proof of stake. And the whole like economies

of scale and return on proof of work investment scales up way more than proof of stake. And the whole point about proof of stake is that you actually capture less and less wealth over time than you do in proof of work versus the miners. And yes, there is the difference where the staking asset actually has like control over the consensus of the system. But it really

doesn't matter. There's not it's not actually that much more power is actually a very marginal difference. Like having a single person running like their own nodes doesn't actually result in the ability to sway the chain. Oh, that's where the that's where the. The social attack factors come into play. And that's why having subjective aspects of consensus matters. I'm not ready to go into that. Yeah, I

think we're pretty, pretty deep. And we've definitely gotten pretty cosmic. I guess like before we close this one out, what's like one thing that you're looking at going into, you know, what could be the peak of a bull market? Like what is your what's your focus here? I don't think that we're going to like peak. I think it's going to be a sustainable slow rise slow

and crypto relative to crypto terms. Sustainable slow rise for a really long time. Maybe we have some blow off top like much later. But I think I think we are not writing like the cycle super cycle. The charting super cycle. But I think we're writing the what Anthony Szanukal is the adoptive. So what I'm particularly looking at is gaming as like this next adoption super cycle.

Where that is the next the next like frontier. And it makes sense to me. Right. So like the way the Ethereum has really progressed is like. First there was DeFi. We made this DeFi thing. And then once DeFi was pretty well built out, we started making NFTs. And then we had the NFTs transacting on top of the DeFi layer. And really what do you need to

make gaming? Well, you need a combination of DeFi NFTs and the ERC 20. And then all of a sudden you can have the gaming layer on top of all that. And I mean, we already we already know that this is coming more or less like Axi and Finty. Kind of was the shot across the Balfour every single person that was interested in gaming to start shoveling

money into gaming startups. And so like a Louvians about to come online. There's like a number of other games that are that are being built behind the scenes. And each one of these games has their own like native GDP. And so like the whole like we're going to take the emerging markets of like, you know, Asia and Africa, all the desire to invest in emerging markets.

And it's going to be like redirected into like gaming emerging markets. Gaming is the next emerging markets. You already see like this SLP token of Axi and Finty being used as a medium of change around the Philippines. And that's just like the first game that crypto is ever really able to make. And so like the great the next great economies of the world are going to

be gaming economies. And that's going to happen like the next like two to three years. Then nothing sounds more clown world than what you just described. But I guess well, we actually call it the the metaverse. And it's a ton of fun. Yeah, I don't know. Like I feel like the metaverse is kind of part of like the dystopian reality that is being thrust upon us

right now. And I just like I feel like Ethereum is leading into that really hard. And Ethereum makes a lot of sense to the fiat world mindset. And Bitcoin is like a back to earth movement where you know we say fuck that shit. We're going back to nature. And we're going to strip, you know, all value away from bullshit. Keep it and the sound money and

and make decisions based on a queen and foreseeable economic system. So I just feel like all basis options like just completely change. And like going into the metaverse is like, I mean, I get why it's probably not going to be a big deal. Like you're right. Like you're not wrong about anything you said. I just think that you're wrong about Bitcoin. And that's where like I

think, you know, in the long term like that. Sub is going to get stomped out. Well, if there's a population of the world that wants to go as you said back to like previous times where Bitcoin where like there were good times. A back in the good old days. More power to them. But you know, just want to live in time goes. Within reality, maybe focus

on the physical world, maybe focus on getting us to space instead of in a world and keep on going. I think the world of funding. So that way we funnel into the digital. The pride of your funding. You're injecting them with funding. It's the exact opposite. Maybe. Maybe if the cantaloupe inside is believes that that is where the the funds that they printed should be allocated.

Okay. Well, this is. It's like the fourth time that you've used this cantaloupe inside or branding. I mean, that's what it is, man. But I mean, we don't we don't have to bang on it too much. It's been a good rip. Missy, man. I think I'm going to see you in person pretty soon. Hopefully we do one of these before then. Yeah, should we just sure

do another live one while we're right before we go skiing in Washington? I mean, maybe we'll see. We'll see. This one was recorded. So it'll be on the podcast so y'all can go look up. You'll be crypto and and catch it. We'll try to get it up. I'm going to be up in a time of manner. Peace everyone. Should we let people want to come on

stage? We'll have us next time. Oh man. Well, I promised that I was going to go to dinner at 7.30. So we could we go back people up for. 12 minutes of the want. Or we can just rug them. Yeah. No, I prefer that. I'm going to rug them. All right. We're going to rug them. I mean, I never promised anything. So there's no room guys.

I never promised anything. All right. No, it's right. Yeah. Goodbye. Thanks for listening. Yeah.